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State of the O-line

otisbean said:
I wonder if we’d be better off building Martin‘s strength and trying him at RG. He doesn’t have the movement skills to do what they’re asking him to do. I noticed multiple times during the year where his responsibility seemed to be picking up an outside pass rusher. If thats what Develin, in his infinite wisdom, wants from his center then they need someone else at that spot
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If you look back at some of the Texans articles, they mention that this season Martin worked hard at increasing his strength.........something I have not been able to appreciate.
Where Martin has worked diligently is upgrading his overall strength and conditioning. He has gotten much stronger, especially in his upper body, and plays with a lot of energy.
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Dec 25, 2019
 
amazing80 said:
Martin is a terrible C, but I would rather focus on RG for now.

Tunsil Scharping Martin New Guy Howard is slightly above average with the potential to be great. Martin would be the weak link there.
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The center position is an extremely important factor towards the safety of the QB. One thing that ALL QBs are concerned about and is most feared is the rush up the middle. The most elite QBs have no good answer to this route to the QB, especially when his escape routes are contained. Watching this season, I felt that many of the up the middle sacks credited to the guards were a function of Martin's lack of strength.
 
I'm not a fan of Martin. I didn't understand the extension, but since then I've watched & he does appear to be avg/above avg in pass blocking. But there is a huge drop off in his run blocking.

For some reason we have him playing man to man even against rushers other teams scheme to double on the inside.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
We're on the same page. Scherff would be my priority signing since it would solidify the right side and make it as formidable as the left side.

The next biggest question on the OL.....does Martin elevate his game if Scherff is on his right side? I saw a lot of plays where Martin was shoved back 3-5 yards at will. I know his numbers looked good on paper but could Fulton do a better job at Center?

If I had to hold onto Martin, then I'm drafting his replacement in 2020. I've got my eye on C, Cesar Ruiz- Michigan. He's 6'-4" and weighs in at an NFL ready 320 lbs which should be plenty of size to be the anchor. He was a 3 year starter who excelled at both run and pass blocking. He's a former national #1 HS recruit at Center who I think only got better playing under Harbaugh. If trading Martin was an option for maybe a RD3 pick, I'd do it in an instance......then sign Fulton to a 1year extension.

If Wisconsin Center, Biabasz was somehow on the board late in RD2......then Ruiz would be a moot point but that's not going to happen. I think Ruiz is the 2nd or 3rd best Center in the 2020 draft and getting him later than RD2 would be a steal.

Adding Scherff and Biadasz or Scherff and Ruiz to the Texans OL would make this group one of the very best in the NFL. Tunsil will return to his Miami form in 2020 which will only help make the unit stronger.

LT- Tunsil (2021)
LG- Scharping
OC- Ruiz or Biadasz
RG- Scherff
RT- Howard

OT- Johnson (2020 Re-Sign) / Nkansah (2021) / Steinmetz (2021)
C/G- Fulton / Mancz (2021)

Others
OT- Leonard / Murphy (2021)

Outside of Tunsil the 2021 group should be a very affordable group to re-sign. This is how consistency is built for the long haul. Get Tunsil under a new contract and this unit could be together for another 4-5 years. Solid starters and solid backups who are completely familiar with the offense....would keep this offense ticking for years.
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I was hopeful when we drafted Martin if I remember correctly he was the number two Center coming out of college that year and his brother was a good player. I have considered Fulton at Center but we can use his cap space this year especially as we have to keep Martin for one more season. To answer your question Scherff at Right Guard will help both sides of his position a lot. Does not fix Martin getting driven back into the pocket. I can see the need to pick up a Center but we have so many needs other spots through Round 4. have you researched picking up another Center through free agency? I'm not a huge fan of Mancz. Biadasz starting to school I think.
 
badboy said:
I was hopeful when we drafted Martin if I remember correctly he was the number two Center coming out of college that year and his brother was a good player. I have considered Fulton at Center but we can use his cap space this year especially as we have to keep Martin for one more season. To answer your question Scherff at Right Guard will help both sides of his position a lot. Does not fix Martin getting driven back into the pocket. I can see the need to pick up a Center but we have so many needs other spots through Round 4. have you researched picking up another Center through free agency? I'm not a huge fan of Mancz. Biadasz starting to school I think.
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I was hoping Fulton would've been the starting center as well. Imo he actually played better there when Martin was down.
 
Corrosion said:
Rather than Scherff , I'd leave Howard at OG and sign a top tier RT , ideally Jack Conklin from the Titans.
That dude is a big part of their success running the ball and I'd like to be able to run the ball as effectively as possible.

Signing key pieces away from division rivals .… makes it even better.
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I would not run screaming from the room if we got Conklin but his PFF of 79 does not validate the huge contract that I expect him to get. Just my valuation but I think Titus Howard will be a very good right tackle In 2020. Howard with his contract greater than Conklin at RT and Scherff Greater than Howard at Right Guard. I would prefer to leave players at their original position.
 
thunderkyss said:
Just to clarify, Scherff will be an UFA March 18 4pm EST.

He & the team may very well reach an agreement before then.


www.google.com

NFL teams expect Redskins to extend Brandon Scherff

The Washington Redskins have a key free agent this offseason in Brandon Scherff. And according to the latest rumors, teams expect the 'Skins to re-sign him.
www.google.com www.google.com
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perhaps scherff wants to test Market however I think he has to be scratching his head over the way Trent Williams was treated. the organization is a complete disaster. Who would want to play there? Texans seem a much better opportunity. Redskins have 45 million dollars in cap space so it could be done however left tackle Donald Penn and left guard ereck flowers seem to have the team over the proverbial Barrel. they should either grab the best left tackle at number 2 or trade down for a huge package. they should have traded Trent Williams for the first rounder Last offseason. Totally stupid move. They are in same place Houston was protecting their quarterback before the tunsil trade.
 
badboy said:
perhaps scherff wants to test Market however I think he has to be scratching his head over the way Trent Williams was treated. the organization is a complete disaster. Who would want to play there? Texans seem a much better opportunity. Redskins have 45 million dollars in cap space so it could be done however left tackle Donald Penn and left guard ereck flowers seem to have the team over the proverbial Barrel. they should either grab the best left tackle at number 2 or trade down for a huge package. they should have traded Trent Williams for the first rounder Last offseason. Totally stupid move. They are in same place Houston was protecting their quarterback before the tunsil trade.
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The Redskins handled the matter with Williams even worse than O'Brien & the Texans did with Clowney last year.
 
badboy said:
I was hopeful when we drafted Martin if I remember correctly he was the number two Center coming out of college that year and his brother was a good player. I have considered Fulton at Center but we can use his cap space this year especially as we have to keep Martin for one more season. To answer your question Scherff at Right Guard will help both sides of his position a lot. Does not fix Martin getting driven back into the pocket. I can see the need to pick up a Center but we have so many needs other spots through Round 4. have you researched picking up another Center through free agency? I'm not a huge fan of Mancz. Biadasz starting to school I think.
Click to expand...

Check out the Ruiz, Center from Michigan. Could be a great insurance policy if Martin doesn’t elevate his game in 2020.
 
steelbtexan said:
I'm not absolving BOB he could provide more options. But many times this yr there were TE's open in the middle of the field.

Question since you want to have an honest discussion, how would you go about teaching DW4 how to beat the 4 man rush with the DE's rushing from almost the wide 9 to keep DW4 in the pocket while dropping 7?

BTW, I never said all 7 sacks were on DW4. I just said the OL was only responsible for 1/2 sack according to Alexander unlike some on this MB have said. Like I said this wasn't my opinion this was Alexander's.
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I would look at this as a situational FB drill. I’d run plays against this type of defense repeatedly, varying the coverages and who’s rushing. I’d give DW 2.5-3 sec, when time expires I’d blow the whistle and the plays dead. You could even build in constraints such as for next 10 plays you cannot leave the pocket or for the next group of plays you have to hit the TEs ect... I would think with enough practice you’d start to identify the problem areas, pass pro, receivers not getting open, play design/call, QB issues
 
Saying that a TE is open is too simplistic.

One has to be aware of the down & distance (and the time).
Then there's such a thing called progression.
There's always a first read, and then there's the blitz.

All QBs will miss a read here and there.
DW is not an exception.

IMO, he does just fine as a third year QB.
The more important thing is that O'Brien is very mundane in getting his players in positions to succeed.
 
76Texan said:
Saying that a TE is open is too simplistic.

One has to be aware of the down & distance (and the time).
Then there's such a thing called progression.
There's always a first read, and then there's the blitz.

All QBs will miss a read here and there.
DW is not an exception.

IMO, he does just fine as a third year QB.
The more important thing is that O'Brien is very mundane in getting his players in positions to succeed.
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Thanks for the dissertation professor.

We disagree on if DW4's doing just fine.

He wasn't doing just fine for 7 out of 17 games this year and particularly the last month of the season wasn't just fine.
 
76Texan said:
Yes, he was just fine for me overall.

Put him in Andy Reid's offense and he will explode.

Bring Mahomes here, and he will suffer.
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Andy Reid is really good at coaching up his players to play within his scheme. He’s not to proud with adjusting his scheme to fit their skill set.

One more thought, some of us just has to be right. Therefore, we have to stand firmly with our hot take.

I’m in the same camp as you. Patrick would be inconsistent just like Watson.
 
76Texan said:
Yes, he was just fine for me overall.

Put him in Andy Reid's offense and he will explode.

Bring Mahomes here, and he will suffer.
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You dont know this.

You will admit Mahomes skillset is a better fit for what BOB wants to do?

DW4's ceiling under REid would be McNabb.
 
steelbtexan said:
You dont know this.

You will admit Mahomes skillset is a better fit for what BOB wants to do?

DW4's ceiling under REid would be McNabb.
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Yeah, but it's my opinion. LOL

They're all different players, especially McNabb; he's just so darn big.

Look, we both like Mahomes when he first came out, so you know where I am in that regard.
My main concern with DW4 was that he may injure himself before he gets adapted to the NFL level.
He's been very durable though, so that concern has lessened for me, considerably.

It's difficult to compare QBs in different eras, but DW4's AYA and completion percentage as a combination surpasses McNabb's by a significant amount, even as DW4 has a terrible Oline for 2 years, and a poor one this last year.
Throwing deeper overvall while maintaining a higher completion percentage, under pressure, is pretty impressive, I must say.

Mahomes and DW4 are fairly even for me, now.
The Chiefs offensive line ranked higher the last two years, and Reid's system doesn't put his QB in harm way anywhere as much as O'Brien's.
 
76Texan said:
Yeah, but it's my opinion. LOL

They're all different players, especially McNabb; he's just so darn big.

Look, we both like Mahomes when he first came out, so you know where I am in that regard.
My main concern with DW4 was that he may injure himself before he gets adapted to the NFL level.
He's been very durable though, so that concern has lessened for me, considerably.

It's difficult to compare QBs in different eras, but DW4's AYA and completion percentage as a combination surpasses McNabb's by a significant amount, even as DW4 has a terrible Oline for 2 years, and a poor one this last year.
Throwing deeper overvall while maintaining a higher completion percentage, under pressure, is pretty impressive, I must say.

Mahomes and DW4 are fairly even for me, now.
The Chiefs offensive line ranked higher the last two years, and Reid's system doesn't put his QB in harm way anywhere as much as O'Brien's.
Click to expand...

Your injury concerns shouldn't be lessened. Maybe CnD could weigh in on this for us.

Fairly even? Gotta strongly disagree with this.

MVP/AFCCG/SB in his 2 yrs as a starter.

DW4 could only dream of this. If you want to blame his lack of success on BOB, Fine have at it. But regardless of who the HC DW4 can only dream that his career ever reaches the heights that Mahomes career has already reached in his 1st two yrs of starting.

BTW, I expect the 49ers to win a close one on Sunday.
 
steelbtexan said:
Your injury concerns shouldn't be lessened. Maybe CnD could weigh in on this for us.

Fairly even? Gotta strongly disagree with this.

MVP/AFCCG/SB in his 2 yrs as a starter.

DW4 could only dream of this. If you want to blame his lack of success on BOB, Fine have at it. But regardless of who the HC DW4 can only dream that his career ever reaches the heights that Mahomes career has already reached in his 1st two yrs of starting.

BTW, I expect the 49ers to win a close one on Sunday.
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Just switch HC and the fortune will reverse.

Did you read my partial game breakdown Chiefs vs. Texans?

The rest of the game was just as brutal.
Andy Reid as the HC and the Texans would win the SB.
 
76Texan said:
Just switch HC and the fortune will reverse.

Did you read my partial game breakdown Chiefs vs. Texans?

The rest of the game was just as brutal.
Andy Reid as the HC and the Texans would win the SB.
Click to expand...

How many SB's has Reid won?

We are never going to agree Mahomes is much better than DW4. He's got more talent and a better ability to understand concepts.

DW4 can and will make improvements but he will never be as good as Mahomes. Why? Talent level and that doesn't change regardless of who the HC is.

I cant believe you think that DW4 can do the same things Mahomes can do after watching them both play. Does DW4 have Mahomes arm strength? Nope. Is DW4 as accurate as Mahomes? Nope. Does he throw with anticipation like Mahomes does? Nope

Can DW4 improve on these things ? Yes, but the things I'm talking about are god given and cant be coached.

Lets quit screwing up another thread that's supposed to be about the OL and take this to the DW4 thread.

Speaking of the OL, after the All Star games, who are some of the guys you liked in the East-West Shrine/Sr. Bowl games?
 
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steelbtexan said:
How many SB's has Reid won?

We are never going to agree Mahomes is much better than DW4. He's got more talent and a better ability to understand concepts.

DW4 can and will make improvements but he will never be as good as Mahomes. Why? Talent level and that doesn't change regardless of who the HC is.

I cant believe you think that DW4 can do the same things Mahomes can do after watching them both play. Does DW4 have Mahomes arm strength? Nope. Is DW4 as accurate as Mahomes? Nope. Does he throw with anticipation like Mahomes does? Nope

Can DW4 improve on these things ? Yes, but the things I'm talking about are god given and cant be coached.

Lets quit screwing up another thread that's supposed to be about the OL and take this to the DW4 thread.

Speaking of the OL, after the All Star games, who are some of the guys you liked in the East-West Shrine/Sr. Bowl games?
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They are not the same QB.
There's no need for better arm strength when Fuller can't outrun it.

DW4 is more fluid as a runner.
Mahomes is a imaginative with his throwing motions (a la Dr. J when he's in the air.)
But both can be succesful in his own way.

An offense alone is usually not enough to win a SB.
I'm sure any fan would be happy to have a legitimate contender.

There's only a "dynasty" or two at a certain period in time.

And there's always an upset here and there (you probably know I'm very wary of Vegas.)

Not feeling too enthused about the draft this year, at least not yet, for obvious reasons, LOL.
 
Don't think most of ya'll know what ya'll are looking at when ya'll watch Mahomes..
76Texan said:
Just switch HC and the fortune will reverse.

Did you read my partial game breakdown Chiefs vs. Texans?

The rest of the game was just as brutal.
Andy Reid as the HC and the Texans would win the SB.
Click to expand...

Andy Reid's offense without the weaponry he has now couldn't even get a TD to his WR's just 3-4 years ago. His playoff games in his 7 years in KC:

2013 - 1 and done
2014 - no playoffs
2015 - won against us , lost in divisional round
2016 - 1 and done
2017 -1 and done
2018 - won against Indy, lost AFCCG
2019 - 2 wins - SB

So bascially prior to Mahomes starting, he had won 1 playoff game in 5 years. IOW's he was BoB. Only when Mahomes got here & started playing literally out of his mind has he even been able to get past the divisional round.

So acting like Reid would've done much more than BoB has done in his 6 years here with actually worse talent on offense here than he's EVER had in his time in KC....... let alone go to the SB at any point in that time frame is laughable.

He's overrated as hell.
 
Mr teX said:
Don't think most of ya'll know what ya'll are looking at when ya'll watch Mahomes..


Andy Reid's offense without the weaponry he has now couldn't even get a TD to his WR's just 3-4 years ago. His playoff games in his 7 years in KC:

2013 - 1 and done
2014 - no playoffs
2015 - won against us , lost in divisional round
2016 - 1 and done
2017 -1 and done
2018 - won against Indy, lost AFCCG
2019 - 2 wins - SB

So bascially prior to Mahomes starting, he had won 1 playoff game in 5 years. IOW's he was BoB. Only when Mahomes got here & started playing literally out of his mind has he even been able to get past the divisional round.

So acting like Reid would've done much more than BoB has done in his 6 years here with actually worse talent on offense here than he's EVER had in his time in KC....... let alone go to the SB at any point in that time frame is laughable.

He's overrated as hell.
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Reid inherited an offense that was 31st and 32nd in scoring the previous 2 years (and 25th in points allowed in 2012). That's pretty much a rebuilding job there.

He lost his first play-off game to Luck and Hilton 44-45 in 2013

...

In 2015, his team trounced the Texans 30-0, then lost 20-27 to a loaded Pats team.

....

In 2016, the Chiefs lost to the Steelers 16-18.

...

In 2017, they lost to the Titans 21-22
....

Last year, they trounced the Colts, a team that beat the Texans soundly, before losing to the Pats in OT.
...

No, O'Brien should never be mentioned in the same sentence as Andy Reid.
 
76Texan said:
Reid inherited an offense that was 31st and 32nd in scoring the previous 2 years (and 25th in points allowed in 2012). That's pretty much a rebuilding job there.

He lost his first play-off game to Luck and Hilton 44-45 in 2013

...

In 2015, his team trounced the Texans 30-0, then lost 20-27 to a loaded Pats team.

....

In 2016, the Chiefs lost to the Steelers 16-18.

...

In 2017, they lost to the Titans 21-22
....

Last year, they trounced the Colts, a team that beat the Texans soundly, before losing to the Pats in OT.
...

No, O'Brien should never be mentioned in the same sentence as Andy Reid.
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Just like you guys like to tell me & others in here, don't matter how you break it down & how many excuses you bring to the table for him bro..1-5 is 1-5 & if he'd been here doing that after 5 years, you & others would've been calling for his head too just like with BoB.

You also make it a point to point out how badly the chiefs beat BoB and the Texans in 2016.......& how badly They beat a Colts team that beat us.....You seem to be impressed with that kind of stuff.....But then you just kinda gloss over how a Reid led team gave up a 28 pt lead in the late 3rd against a young upstart Colts team in 2013...but in this very same thread you drone on about how BoB and the Texans surrendered a 24 pt lead and were outscored 51-7......while also glossing over how this vaunted offensive mind managed to only put up 16 pts in a playoff loss against the Steelers..

At this point, your credibility is shot.

He's overrated, deal with it.
 
Mr teX said:
Just like you guys like to tell me & others in here, don't matter how you break it down & how many excuses you bring to the table for him bro..1-5 is 1-5 & if he'd been here doing that after 5 years, you & others would've been calling for his head too just like with BoB.

You also make it a point to point out how badly the chiefs beat BoB and the Texans in 2016.......& how badly They beat a Colts team that beat us.....You seem to be impressed with that kind of stuff.....But then you just kinda gloss over how a Reid led team gave up a 28 pt lead in the late 3rd against a young upstart Colts team in 2013...but in this very same thread you drone on about how BoB and the Texans surrendered a 24 pt lead and were outscored 51-7......while also glossing over how this vaunted offensive mind managed to only put up 16 pts in a playoff loss against the Steelers..

At this point, your credibility is shot.

He's overrated, deal with it.
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Nah, you're just making stuffs up.

I 've always said from the start that O'Brien' teams play poorly in the play-offs (as in NON-competitive).
That's the main reason I don't see it with him.
 
76Texan said:
Reid inherited an offense that was 31st and 32nd in scoring the previous 2 years (and 25th in points allowed in 2012). That's pretty much a rebuilding job there.

He lost his first play-off game to Luck and Hilton 44-45 in 2013

...

In 2015, his team trounced the Texans 30-0, then lost 20-27 to a loaded Pats team.

....

In 2016, the Chiefs lost to the Steelers 16-18.

...

In 2017, they lost to the Titans 21-22
....

Last year, they trounced the Colts, a team that beat the Texans soundly, before losing to the Pats in OT.
...

No, O'Brien should never be mentioned in the same sentence as Andy Reid.
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Exactly, this also shows his team is very competitive. They’re not getting embarrassed like our Texans. I really don’t know what my boy Tex is trying to compare here.
 
Mr teX said:
Don't think most of ya'll know what ya'll are looking at when ya'll watch Mahomes..


Andy Reid's offense without the weaponry he has now couldn't even get a TD to his WR's just 3-4 years ago. His playoff games in his 7 years in KC:

2013 - 1 and done
2014 - no playoffs
2015 - won against us , lost in divisional round
2016 - 1 and done
2017 -1 and done
2018 - won against Indy, lost AFCCG
2019 - 2 wins - SB

So bascially prior to Mahomes starting, he had won 1 playoff game in 5 years. IOW's he was BoB. Only when Mahomes got here & started playing literally out of his mind has he even been able to get past the divisional round.

So acting like Reid would've done much more than BoB has done in his 6 years here with actually worse talent on offense here than he's EVER had in his time in KC....... let alone go to the SB at any point in that time frame is laughable.

He's overrated as hell.
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That's true. The funny thing is that the only coach he could beat in the playoffs was O'Brien (30-0). In their 2 playoff meetings Reid has completely humiliated O'Brien.

Not only has Andy Reid been to five AFC championships & 2 Super Bowls but he has done something that only 6 other coaches in the last 54 years have done & that is take 2 different teams to a super bowl.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I firmly believe that Andy Reed is a hall of fame coach.
 
mws said:
That's true. The funny thing is that the only coach he could beat in the playoffs was O'Brien (30-0). In their 2 playoff meetings Reid has completely humiliated O'Brien.

Not only has Andy Reid been to five AFC championships & 2 Super Bowls but he has done something that only 6 other coaches in the last 54 years have done & that is take 2 different teams to a super bowl.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I firmly believe that Andy Reed is a hall of fame coach.
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Yeah........... but he's also been at it as a HC for 20 years too. I think he's a good HC coach, just that people on here lusting for him need to cool their heels.
 
Mr teX said:
Yeah........... but he's also been at it as a HC for 20 years too. I think he's a good HC coach, just that people on here lusting for him need to cool their heels.
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Sure, he only took his first team to the SB in his 6th year.
What an over-rated HC.
He's just like O'Brien... NOT.

Sorry, but I think you ought not try to paint them with the same brush.
 
LOLLLLLL did ya'll see the expert level troll job Walter Fooball did with the Texans mock draft??? OMG its epic!

They went full petty (alot of you guys will appreciate that aspect!!) and mocked an OFFENSIVE TACKLE to the Texans with the 2nd round pick!! LMAOOOOOOOO
funniest shi .. oops ALMOST GOT ME -- STUFF (yeah funniest stuff) i've read so far about the draft. Yes I know the history of Walter Football Vs. Buttcrack McQuack, but its STILL funny.
 
76Texan said:
Sure, he only took his first team to the SB in his 6th year.
What an over-rated HC.
He's just like O'Brien... NOT.

Sorry, but I think you ought not try to paint them with the same brush.
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Lol...So Reid gets tabbed as a "great" HC b/c he's gone to the SB twice in a 20 year career....

Jim Caldwell "took" the Colts to the SB in 2006....
Bill Callahan "took" the Raiders to a SB in 2005 i believe...
John Fox has taken 2 different teams to a SB......Both times inside of 6 years
Mike Tomlin has actually won a SB.....
.
.
.

Don Coryell had 0 SB appearances as a HC......

Only 1 of those guys is deserved of being called a great HC....& he's the guy that never took his team to 1.

Stop reciting the tired storylines of the mindless mainstream media. A SB appearance does not a great or even good HC make.
 
Mr teX said:
Lol...So Reid gets tabbed as a "great" HC b/c he's gone to the SB twice in a 20 year career....

Jim Caldwell "took" the Colts to the SB in 2006....
Bill Callahan "took" the Raiders to a SB in 2005 i believe...
John Fox has taken 2 different teams to a SB......Both times inside of 6 years
Mike Tomlin has actually won a SB.....
.
.
.

Don Coryell had 0 SB appearances as a HC......

Only 1 of those guys is deserved of being called a great HC....& he's the guy that never took his team to 1.

Stop reciting the tired storylines of the mindless mainstream media. A SB appearance does not a great or even good HC make.
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Don't need to be a great HC to win a SB.
A great HC for me is one who can build a team from scratch and keep it highly competitive for a sustained period of time.

Just like players. Some great QBs never made it to the SB.
 
Mr teX said:
Lol...So Reid gets tabbed as a "great" HC b/c he's gone to the SB twice in a 20 year career....

Jim Caldwell "took" the Colts to the SB in 2006....
Bill Callahan "took" the Raiders to a SB in 2005 i believe...
John Fox has taken 2 different teams to a SB......Both times inside of 6 years
Mike Tomlin has actually won a SB.....
.
.
.

Don Coryell had 0 SB appearances as a HC......

Only 1 of those guys is deserved of being called a great HC....& he's the guy that never took his team to 1.

Stop reciting the tired storylines of the mindless mainstream media. A SB appearance does not a great or even good HC make.
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I agree that Coryell was one of the most innovative coaches ever. He changed the way the game is played. He was a huge part of the pass first offense we see in the NFL today. I personally think he should be in the hall of fame. But when it comes to winning football games Andy Reid out does him in every way.

Made the Playoffs
Reid: 15 out of 21 seasons as a HC. (71%)
Coryell: 6 out of 14 seasons as a HC. (43%)

Made it to the AFC Championship
Reid: 1
Coryell: 2

Made it to the NFC Championship
Reid: 4
Coryell: 0

Super Bowls
Reid: 2
Coryell: 0

Regular Season Record
Reid: 207-128-1 .618
Coryell: 111-83-1 .572

Like I said he is one of 7 coaches that have taken 2 different teams to a super bowl. Reid is also #7 on the all time games won. All the coaches who have won more except Belichick are already in the hall of fame.

Don Shula - 328
George Halas - 318
Bill Belichick - 273
Tom Landry - 250
Curly Lambeau - 226
Paul Brown - 213
Andy Reid - 207 Wins
 
mws said:
I agree that Coryell was one of the most innovative coaches ever. He changed the way the game is played. He was a huge part of the pass first offense we see in the NFL today. I personally think he should be in the hall of fame. But when it comes to winning football games Andy Reid out does him in every way.

Made the Playoffs
Reid: 15 out of 21 seasons as a HC. (71%)
Coryell: 6 out of 14 seasons as a HC. (43%)

Made it to the AFC Championship
Reid: 1
Coryell: 2

Made it to the NFC Championship
Reid: 4
Coryell: 0

Super Bowls
Reid: 2
Coryell: 0

Regular Season Record
Reid: 207-128-1 .618
Coryell: 111-83-1 .572

Like I said he is one of 7 coaches that have taken 2 different teams to a super bowl. Reid is also #7 on the all time games won. All the coaches who have won more except Belichick are already in the hall of fame.

Don Shula - 328
George Halas - 318
Bill Belichick - 273
Tom Landry - 250
Curly Lambeau - 226
Paul Brown - 213
Andy Reid - 207 Wins
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Yeah....and all those HC’s ahead of him have won SB’s and changed the game in some form or fashion. Reid’s done neither. For all those regular season games he’s won..and all those playoff appearances, he’s only 14-14 in them. All he has really shown is that he can make deep playoff runs and go to the SB when he’s got a qb playing at or pretty close to MVP level ball. Lots of guys can do that.

For comparison, his contemporary Bill Cowher coached 15 years, was 12-9 all-time in the playoffs and was consistently getting to the playoffs and taking his teams to championship games and SB’s with the likes of guys like Neil O’Donnell and Kordell Stewart.....i.e. he had trash under center. That’s a great coach right there. Dude was getting it done year after year a variety of different ways. Reid has shown that he can only get it done 1 way...

His wins record is more of a function of the fact that he’s been a HC in the league for 20 years.

Reid is a great PLAYCALLER. He’s just a good HC...
 
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mussop said:
You don’t know this.

You will admit Rieds skill set as a play caller is head and shoulders above OBs?

Every QBs ceiling under OB is Watson. Fact.
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I certainly think Reid is a better OC than BOB is.

With that said, it's also obvious Mahomes has a better skillset and his 1st 2 yrs starting made it to OT (Where he didn't get a chance to win the game) of the AFCCG and now a SB appearance. You can say REid is great and I will disagree with you. He's only made the SB one time before Mahomes in 15-20 yrs. Mahomes is a very special talent. DW4's a good QB, Mahomes is a great QB.
 
steelbtexan said:
I certainly think Reid is a better OC than BOB is.

With that said, it's also obvious Mahomes has a better skillset and his 1st 2 yrs starting made it to OT (Where he didn't get a chance to win the game) of the AFCCG and now a SB appearance. You can say Reid is great and I will disagree with you. He's only made the SB one time before Mahomes in 15-20 yrs. Mahomes is a very special talent. DW4's a good QB, Mahomes is a great QB.
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I'd say Andy Reid did a much better job of installing Mahomes as the starting QB than OB did with DW.

Let him sit the first year, gave him the start in week 17, then spent the offseason with him as the starting QB.

OTOH, Watson spent his rookie offseason in a full blown competition for snaps again Tom Savage, lost out on the starting job, until Week 1 didn't go to plan and was forced to play in a poorly suited offense that then needed to be drawn up on the fly. Injuries followed and have not helped his development through his first 3 seasons.

My worry at this point is that we have seen many many QB's peak within their first 3 seasons in the league, especially if the offense is mismanaged around them.
 
steelbtexan said:
I certainly think Reid is a better OC than BOB is.

With that said, it's also obvious Mahomes has a better skillset and his 1st 2 yrs starting made it to OT (Where he didn't get a chance to win the game) of the AFCCG and now a SB appearance. You can say REid is great and I will disagree with you. He's only made the SB one time before Mahomes in 15-20 yrs. Mahomes is a very special talent. DW4's a good QB, Mahomes is a great QB.
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I wanted Mahomes too but didn't figure on him being this good.
Kid has it and wow factor out the wazoo.
 
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