We were 3-4 when Watson was hurt...

[Mr teX]

First, regarding the rockets they have had more success and the nba is a different beast because of the lack of parity. In the nfl you can turn your team around quicker and despite that the rockets have had more success still.

Second, it’s not just about the success over past year, it’s also about team outlook going forward. Even with GS in the nba I’d give the rockets a better chance at winning a title this year than the Texans who are not even going to make the playoffs.

Look at the Astros....they hadn’t had a whole lot of success in ast seasons either but there was optimism surrounding them because of future outlook.

Even though the Texans were losing every other game with Watson there was tons of optimism because we finally had good play at the hardest position in sports to fill. Not only that but even in the losses against premiere teams and qbs he went toe to toe with them and one or two plays in our favor at the end changes the results.

I don’t really get your point here. Yeah we were scoring a lot of points. We were getting great qb play.

The optimism with the Astros didn't start back in 2012 in the midst of thier 3 100 loss seasons when the team was tanking....it started when they surprised in 2015 & made the playoffs. Yet and still they faltered in 2016 before putting it all together this year. Regardless, the level of optimism was that much higher than it was back in 2005 when we went to our 1st WS..why? b/c the Astros had the best offense in baseball......imo of course.

So my point is fans want to see scoring and they tend to judge what their teams are, how good a team is or will/can be by what their offense is doing...even though there could be obvious holes elsewhere on the team that more often than not will prevent that team from putting it together. Was listening to sean jones on 790 the other day & he kind of reinforced my point about this. Fans tend to just lock in on offense & get carried away with predictions.

As far as the Rockets... yeah technically you're right they have had more success than the Texans...barely. 1 deep playoff run the entire time the Texans have been in existence under this regime. That's great and all, but the reality is sports is a zero sum game and a "better chance at winning" doesn't really equivocate to anything if you don't actually......... win when it matters most.... or at least knock on the door hard a couple times. & As far as that goes the Rockets and Texans are pretty much in the same boat as neither has really come close to breaking through b/c the same flaws keep presenting themselves on both teams;

 

[TheKDog]

You’ll find as many useless offensive picks before BoB took over at HC.

You won't find as many picks traded away though. How many for nix and strong? Imagine if we picked 6 guys instead of those 2.

 

[xtruroyaltyx]

Im not saying they are...but they probably should've once they got Harden.

It’s common knowledge that the former owner was against that.

 

[adama51]

Did he burn those pages to keep them from falling into enemy hands

I'm not in the fire BOB camp but that was pretty funny

 

[adama51]

picked 6

 

[Belichick Fan]

If that's the case then it leads me right back to the question I can't get out of my head which is "If Savage is only capable of running the Romper-Room version of what O'Brien wants to do then why hang on to him for 4 years and try to start the season with him?"

He's been through an impressive number of QB's, some of which are out there right now with jobs on other teams and yet the guy he kept is the one who can't run any of the plays that don't start with your thumb in your mouth? And he chose to go with that guy and nobody else behind his starter?

It really boggles the mind. He watches the games. I know he does because that's his job and yet this is where we ended up at QB? We're always here at QB to be honest with O'Brien. He gives one guy starter reps, pulls him and starts another, signs somebody off the street who he cut in the preseason, it goes on and on.... I just can't see a pattern in it other than flailing around in desperation trying to find something that's right in front of his face. That's what it mostly looks like right now. Signing McGloin, kicking him to the curb, bringing in Grandpa Moses (What? Testaverde wouldn't return our calls?). Just goofy moves following more goofy moves.

I think this is the key question, and I don't have a good answer for you. Honestly I think this question deserves it own thread. Assume OB knows how to competently game plan & play call on the offensive side and try to make sense of the QB history. So while don't have an answer, I do have some thoughts:

• I don't have a good sense of the FO, OB, and the scouting department's strengths and weaknesses. Belichick's dad wrote the book on scouting. Belichick studied economics, and seems quite good at cost-benefit analysis of player market decisions.
• Perhaps a QB that is used to thinking about play books in a different way struggles sometimes with a EP-like system. Brock looked decent vs. the Pats last night. It was D & ST that lost the game for Denver.
• Some of these QBs that have done well elsewhere might be benefiting from good OL play, a good running attack, and conservative game plans from a good defense (Case Keenum in MIN?)

I also have a question for y'all: (see what I did there?)

What was your impression of why the Texans moved on from Hoyer? He always seemed like good back-up and boarder-line starter quality. He only got 2 Million per year from the Bears after the Texans.

I never liked Mallet. I prefer accuracy to arm strength, and always seemed dumb.

 

[Marcus]

I’m not going to bother reading thru this thread, so if it’s already been mentioned, I don’t care.

I listened to those bozos on 610 while on my way to the grocery store (and every time I do I feel dumber for it) and what’s his name mentioned how he couldn’t believe how healthy the Rams were, and they all groupsucked in agreement that if the Texans were as healthy injury wise as the Rams, they would have the same record as the the Rams.

I agree with that, so I guess that makes me as dumb as they are.

And I have never, NEVER been a fan of criticizing the secondary when you can’t get it done upfront.

 

[adama51]

they all groupsucked in agreement

I swear, I find the best phrases on this board

 

[TexansSeminole]

You won't find as many picks traded away though. How many for nix and strong? Imagine if we picked 6 guys instead of those 2.

RS has routinely traded up for people. This is a OB problem how?

 

[TheKDog]

RS has routinely traded up for people. This is a OB problem how?

It wasn't done nearly as much when Kubiak was here. In fact I'm pretty sure we traded down more.

After we traded up for Strong, O'Brien said:

"I don't know if that's been done a lot around here before," O'Brien said. "But I give Rick credit, he did it. He did it twice, and we were able to get some good players. "

 

[TheKDog]

RS has routinely traded up for people. This is a OB problem how?

It wasn't done nearly as much when Kubiak was here. In fact I'm pretty sure we traded down more.

After we traded up for Strong, O'Brien said:

"I don't know if that's been done a lot around here before," O'Brien said. "But I give Rick credit, he did it. He did it twice, and we were able to get some good players. "

 

[Hervoyel]

I think this is the key question, and I don't have a good answer for you. Honestly I think this question deserves it own thread. Assume OB knows how to competently game plan & play call on the offensive side and try to make sense of the QB history. So while don't have an answer, I do have some thoughts:

• I don't have a good sense of the FO, OB, and the scouting department's strengths and weaknesses. Belichick's dad wrote the book on scouting. Belichick studied economics, and seems quite good at cost-benefit analysis of player market decisions.
• Perhaps a QB that is used to thinking about play books in a different way struggles sometimes with a EP-like system. Brock looked decent vs. the Pats last night. It was D & ST that lost the game for Denver.
• Some of these QBs that have done well elsewhere might be benefiting from good OL play, a good running attack, and conservative game plans from a good defense (Case Keenum in MIN?)

I also have a question for y'all: (see what I did there?)

What was your impression of why the Texans moved on from Hoyer? He always seemed like good back-up and boarder-line starter quality. He only got 2 Million per year from the Bears after the Texans.

I never liked Mallet. I prefer accuracy to arm strength, and always seemed dumb.

I think that coming out of the previous season there was a feeling that many of us (I believe) thought that we were going to see Ryan Mallet step into the role of starting QB and then we would all enjoy some more of what he did against the Cleveland Browns the previous year before he was injured. Keep in mind that we had watched one of the most horrible seasons of QB play we'd seen around here since David Carr left town (and that was considered one of Fitz's better years?) and so when Mallet showed up and then dissected the Browns so efficiently (He was 20 out of 30 for 211 yards and a couple of TD's while spreading the ball around to 6 different guys and had a 95.3 rating) we were pretty excited. We were still thinking that OB was going to deliver something akin to what we saw the Patriots do on offense every year. Then injury, back to Fitz, and into the off-season but we held a little hope out that maybe Ryan Mallet was the guy we saw in the first game he played for us and not the guy in the second game.

Then Fitz is sent packing and we're all like "Well, OK cool. Guess this means Mallet is going to...... we signed who?" Hoyer showed up here to a skeptical fan base from day one. Didn't understand the signing. Had just watched him lead the Browns to dick against us the year before. In that game Hoyer had been 20 out of 50 for 330 yards and one TD. Sporting that 61.2 rating he looked a lot like Tom Savage does right now. Surely we didn't want this guy right?

He came out of the gate sucking against the Chiefs, ended the season sucking against the Chiefs, and we wanted as far away from that suck machine as we could get. Didn't matter that Mallet sucked too that year. Mallet was gone (and clearly not the answer) and Hoyer was so bad in that playoff game that we never wanted to see him in a Texans uniform again. It was an epic bad playoff game. The dude threw four picks and had a 15.9 rating at the end of the day.

 

[TexansBull]

I think this is the key question, and I don't have a good answer for you. Honestly I think this question deserves it own thread. Assume OB knows how to competently game plan & play call on the offensive side and try to make sense of the QB history. So while don't have an answer, I do have some thoughts:

• I don't have a good sense of the FO, OB, and the scouting department's strengths and weaknesses. Belichick's dad wrote the book on scouting. Belichick studied economics, and seems quite good at cost-benefit analysis of player market decisions.
• Perhaps a QB that is used to thinking about play books in a different way struggles sometimes with a EP-like system. Brock looked decent vs. the Pats last night. It was D & ST that lost the game for Denver.
• Some of these QBs that have done well elsewhere might be benefiting from good OL play, a good running attack, and conservative game plans from a good defense (Case Keenum in MIN?)

I also have a question for y'all: (see what I did there?)

What was your impression of why the Texans moved on from Hoyer? He always seemed like good back-up and boarder-line starter quality. He only got 2 Million per year from the Bears after the Texans.

I never liked Mallet. I prefer accuracy to arm strength, and always seemed dumb.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Hoyer imploded in classic Hoyer fashion by turning the ball over 3 times. (For some reason I am thinking 4.) After that McNair wanted the best FA QB. That started the Brockalypse. Hoyer is an above average 2nd string QB, but as evidenced by others has a unique choking ability. I would not mind him backing up Watson for mentoring. Keenum is first (not for mentoring purely) and Hoyer would be a distant second. Maybe third.

 

[Belichick Fan]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Hoyer imploded in classic Hoyer fashion by turning the ball over 3 times. (For some reason I am thinking 4.) After that McNair wanted the best FA QB. That started the Brockalypse. Hoyer is an above average 2nd string QB, but as evidenced by others has a unique choking ability. I would not mind him backing up Watson for mentoring. Keenum is first (not for mentoring purely) and Hoyer would be a distant second. Maybe third.

I think that coming out of the previous season there was a feeling that many of us (I believe) thought that we were going to see Ryan Mallet step into the role of starting QB and then we would all enjoy some more of what he did against the Cleveland Browns the previous year before he was injured. Keep in mind that we had watched one of the most horrible seasons of QB play we'd seen around here since David Carr left town (and that was considered one of Fitz's better years?) and so when Mallet showed up and then dissected the Browns so efficiently (He was 20 out of 30 for 211 yards and a couple of TD's while spreading the ball around to 6 different guys and had a 95.3 rating) we were pretty excited. We were still thinking that OB was going to deliver something akin to what we saw the Patriots do on offense every year. Then injury, back to Fitz, and into the off-season but we held a little hope out that maybe Ryan Mallet was the guy we saw in the first game he played for us and not the guy in the second game.

Then Fitz is sent packing and we're all like "Well, OK cool. Guess this means Mallet is going to...... we signed who?" Hoyer showed up here to a skeptical fan base from day one. Didn't understand the signing. Had just watched him lead the Browns to dick against us the year before. In that game Hoyer had been 20 out of 50 for 330 yards and one TD. Sporting that 61.2 rating he looked a lot like Tom Savage does right now. Surely we didn't want this guy right?

He came out of the gate sucking against the Chiefs, ended the season sucking against the Chiefs, and we wanted as far away from that suck machine as we could get. Didn't matter that Mallet sucked too that year. Mallet was gone (and clearly not the answer) and Hoyer was so bad in that playoff game that we never wanted to see him in a Texans uniform again. It was an epic bad playoff game. The dude threw four picks and had a 15.9 rating at the end of the day.

Yep, sorry I did not remember that playoff game. I looked up his stats on PFR, and they did not seem that bad for that year. I forgot to scroll all the way to the post-season!

I am also aware that stats can mislead. Was just trying to get a sense of it for your perspective. The bullet points were the potentially insightful part of the post IMO.

 

[ColeThornton]

You need to edit the thread title; we were 3-4 when Watson was HEALTHY.
We've only played two games with him injured.

I can see the ambiguity. I guess most understood it meant we were 3-4 when he "got" hurt.

 

[ColeThornton]

Fans are notoriously selfish and unrealistic. In the midst of it all, Fans didn't like suffering through 3 straight 100 loss seasons with the Astros either. But as we sit here as the current world series champs poised for at least the next 2-4 seasons to potentially lock down another championship, everything's all good.

Fans are currently poo pooing not having a 1st and 2nd in the 2018 draft....and they didn't like what we had to give up to move up in the 1st and get Watson...& they didn't like the trade of long time LT stallwart Duane Brown. But these moves are setting us up for a much brighter future than the temporary moves you're talking about. & if all these moves culminate in a SB run, fans won't be tripping at all.

 

[ColeThornton]

Of course not, if we had a crystal ball and knew this was leading to a Super Bowl we would all be on board. But the Astros plan took 3 years. At some point in time, enough is enough and you feel like starting over is better than the same ole same ole. Rick Smith has been GM for at least 10 years now, is that not a fair sample size to evaluate him? One thing nice about sports is we have a black and white method to evaluate performance. Can you tell us a few GMs who kept their job for over a decade that didn't at least "get to" a conference championship game. Unfortunately we have all heard he is off limits, we've all heard the reasons. I think he's the biggest problem the Texan's have but since he's got a life time gig, we see O'Brien as the only chance for improvement beyond the players.

 

[ColeThornton]

You really think he's "designed" anything? Seriously? Much less the crazy-cool **** that DW4 has been doing? I don't buy it anymore. I think O'Brien's not even the guy behind the curtain anymore much less the Wizard we all thought we saw.

I agree, if it were the "system" all our other QBs wouldn't have looked so bad. Watson's unique talent transcended any system. Many of the great plays he made were after the plays broke down and he turned a bad "system" play into a huge success because of "his" ability.

 

[TheKDog]

I think that coming out of the previous season there was a feeling that many of us (I believe) thought that we were going to see Ryan Mallet step into the role of starting QB and then we would all enjoy some more of what he did against the Cleveland Browns the previous year before he was injured. Keep in mind that we had watched one of the most horrible seasons of QB play we'd seen around here since David Carr left town (and that was considered one of Fitz's better years?) and so when Mallet showed up and then dissected the Browns so efficiently (He was 20 out of 30 for 211 yards and a couple of TD's while spreading the ball around to 6 different guys and had a 95.3 rating) we were pretty excited. We were still thinking that OB was going to deliver something akin to what we saw the Patriots do on offense every year. Then injury, back to Fitz, and into the off-season but we held a little hope out that maybe Ryan Mallet was the guy we saw in the first game he played for us and not the guy in the second game.

Then Fitz is sent packing and we're all like "Well, OK cool. Guess this means Mallet is going to...... we signed who?" Hoyer showed up here to a skeptical fan base from day one. Didn't understand the signing. Had just watched him lead the Browns to dick against us the year before. In that game Hoyer had been 20 out of 50 for 330 yards and one TD. Sporting that 61.2 rating he looked a lot like Tom Savage does right now. Surely we didn't want this guy right?

He came out of the gate sucking against the Chiefs, ended the season sucking against the Chiefs, and we wanted as far away from that suck machine as we could get. Didn't matter that Mallet sucked too that year. Mallet was gone (and clearly not the answer) and Hoyer was so bad in that playoff game that we never wanted to see him in a Texans uniform again. It was an epic bad playoff game. The dude threw four picks and had a 15.9 rating at the end of the day.

All of this is on the QB guru

He got us excited for Mallet as the future? Really? Yes I do remember that happened but it's absurd

 

[Perki-Perk]

Kubiak had far more say in personnel than BOB does.

With that said why would any org want a GM like you described Ricky as?

It's my belief that after Kubiak left Ricky took over as the lead guy in acquiring personnel. Atleast that's what BOB's said in past PC's.


Great post,

It's the talent level and the guy building the roster that has failed 2 different regimes and counting. All of the other stuff doesn't matter.

Arian Foster was a threat to run behind that zone blocking scheme. Lamar Miller...behind this line...lmao. Why do you people think football is plug and play. Apples and freaking Oranges.

 

[Perki-Perk]

Atleast the Rockets are trying to win a championship despite the Warriors/Spurs juggernaughts. They added Paul by trade this offseason as well as Tucker/Luc. Tell me what did the Texans do in FA this offseason?

They got rid of dead weight Arseweiler?? Anyone? Anyone?

 

[Perki-Perk]

I didn't have a problem with the Astros losing are the rebuild because I had faith in the person responsible for the rebuild. I have no faith in the person responsible for the Texans rebuild after 12 yrs of observation. If the Texans as an org is really trying to rebuild at all. In short there's no long term vision in the Texans org. IMHO

With an outstanding young Talent at rookie QB, that's your hardest piece. Trade whatever we have left for picks. Stack up 1st round picks for next draft and build your O-line, draft someone to throw it to and a couple of OLB's. Trade Merci, Watt, Hopkins, Miller, and whoever else you can for high picks. Rebuild the right way, or waste Watson's time and your window. That's what I'd do, and y'all would hate it, until about 2020 when we're deep in the playoffs and 2021 when we bring home the first championship with Watson leading the team.

 

[TheKDog]

They got rid of dead weight Arseweiler?? Anyone? Anyone?

They even screwed that up but giving up a second rounder that will practically be a first rounder

 

[Perki-Perk]

They even screwed that up but giving up a second rounder that will practically be a first rounder

LOL

 

[steelbtexan]

You want Savage to run a read option PA out of the pistol or shotgun? That’s a lot of what Watson was doing.

This would be something I would like to see.

LOL

 

[Texansballer74]

Had nothing to do with BOB designing an offense that was tailored to Watson's strengths?

BTW, I want BOB gone because he didn't have the balls to go for the win against the Seahawks/Pats.

He had no other choice. And you do know most of those plays were from his book. He just tossed in the QB designed run stuff.

 

[chuck]

O'Boy, yet another thread to let us know the Texans suck

 

[steelbtexan]

He had no other choice. And you do know most of those plays were from his book. He just tossed in the QB designed run stuff.

Better QB makes for better coaching decisions, makes for more points on the board and theoretically more wins.

 

[JB]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Hoyer imploded in classic Hoyer fashion by turning the ball over 3 times. (For some reason I am thinking 4.) After that McNair wanted the best FA QB. That started the Brockalypse. Hoyer is an above average 2nd string QB, but as evidenced by others has a unique choking ability. I would not mind him backing up Watson for mentoring. Keenum is first (not for mentoring purely) and Hoyer would be a distant second. Maybe third.

He actually turned it over 5 times... 4 Interceptions and fumbled twice, losing one

Yep, sorry I did not remember that playoff game. I looked up his stats on PFR, and they did not seem that bad for that year. I forgot to scroll all the way to the post-season!

I am also aware that stats can mislead. Was just trying to get a sense of it for your perspective. The bullet points were the potentially insightful part of the post IMO.

Texans offensive stats from that horrible day



He was the most hated man in Houston with OB right beside him

 

[TripleTap]

He doesn't know what he's looking at or what he's doing.

Case Keenum has the Vikings at 7-2 and just threw 4 TD passes. Would have been nice to have that guy backing up Watson wouldn't it? We had him more than once under O'Brien's watch but he was always sent packing while we held on to Savage each time. Now we see that Savage is no more the guy to run O'Brien's imaginary system that changes with each person thrown into it than any of the countless other bodies he's plugged in and then discarded since arriving here. All O'Brien has done is waste the final years of Andre Johnson's career, the final years of Arian Foster's career, and some of the best years of J.J. Watt's career for near .500 records and post-season embarrassment.

Reread this whole post. It's on the nose. I fear there's no hope we'll get rid of O'Brien, but this post makes the case.

 

[austins23]

I want BOB gone because he didn't have the balls to go for the win against the Seahawks/Pats.

Especially when the D hadn't been stopping anything!!

 

[Belichick Fan]

Coaching absolutely matters. His job is more than drawing X's and O's on a chalkboard and calling time outs - both of which I think O'Brien isn't good at. Job 1 is to teach and improve the players and that certainly isn't happening. It's not just a lack of talent, players are actually getting worse under O'Brien. Our position coaches aren't up to the necessary standard, and O'Brien has effectively destroyed our veteran presence on offense that can aid those coaches.

You can talk about Smith all you want, but until you have a coaching staff to improve and utilize players to be their best, it doesn't matter who the GM is.

I was rereading this thread and this post struck me. I thought it was very interesting I want to comment a few lines:

drawing X's and O's on a chalkboard: I still think OB is quite good at understanding X's and O's. His coaching clinic had that clear to me.

I will leave it up to everyone to describe how clear his explanations are. Perhaps OB understands it, but he can't teach it to the players effectively?

calling time outs: Up until this year, I was pretty impressed with his game management. Although, I had not been following as closely as you all. I think his issues was adjusting his play calling style as the strengths of the team shifted. I understand if you want to blame him for the poor QB play for those 3 years, but he did decently well in working around that limitation.

Our position coaches aren't up to the necessary standard: First off, the impact of position coaches is can be quite large. The drop off in play when the Patriots O-line coach temporarily retired was massive. The Patriots are well coached, from top to bottom.

Suppose you are correct on your assessment of the position coaches. Who is to blame for that? Will that improve significantly by getting a new coaching staff? Would it be better to give OB more time to find better position coaches?

O'Brien has effectively destroyed our veteran presence on offense that can aid those coaches: Would you mind explaining how he destroyed that? Sorry if you have written about it elsewhere and I missed it.

 

[OptimisticTexan]

If that's the case then it leads me right back to the question I can't get out of my head which is "If Savage is only capable of running the Romper-Room version of what O'Brien wants to do then why hang on to him for 4 years and try to start the season with him?"

He's been through an impressive number of QB's, some of which are out there right now with jobs on other teams and yet the guy he kept is the one who can't run any of the plays that don't start with your thumb in your mouth? And he chose to go with that guy and nobody else behind his starter?

It really boggles the mind. He watches the games. I know he does because that's his job and yet this is where we ended up at QB? We're always here at QB to be honest with O'Brien. He gives one guy starter reps, pulls him and starts another, signs somebody off the street who he cut in the preseason, it goes on and on.... I just can't see a pattern in it other than flailing around in desperation trying to find something that's right in front of his face. That's what it mostly looks like right now. Signing McGloin, kicking him to the curb, bringing in Grandpa Moses (What? Testaverde wouldn't return our calls?). Just goofy moves following more goofy moves.

Great post!

 

[OptimisticTexan]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Hoyer imploded in classic Hoyer fashion by turning the ball over 3 times. (For some reason I am thinking 4.) After that McNair wanted the best FA QB. That started the Brockalypse. Hoyer is an above average 2nd string QB, but as evidenced by others has a unique choking ability. I would not mind him backing up Watson for mentoring. Keenum is first (not for mentoring purely) and Hoyer would be a distant second. Maybe third.

I'd like to bring out the "Hindsight 20/20" mirror and wonder out loud, what if....

...McNair and RS had decided not to get involved with the QB position and not signed Osweiler to that 72M contract. Texans would've known last year what they're only finding out this year...Savage is not the answer for O'Brien's offense. The team could've let Savage go for an extended period and then had Weeden finish the year. Sure the team probably finishes with 4 or 5 wins but imagine where they would be if they had gone this route.....

...Texans 4 or 5 win season puts them inside the 2018 NFL Draft's 12th pick. They could've drafted Watson with the knowledge that no trade up would've been required and he would've been taking all the first team snaps from Day1. Since Osweiler was never traded for, the Texans are still enjoying all their 2018 NFL Draft picks and have plenty of cap space still available. Savage is probably released or traded for a RD7 pick (could he be worse than Keenum's RD6 return?) and the team re-signs Weeden to be backup this season. The best part....

...with the team finishing badly in 2016, they possess a decent draft position throughout and still have their full compliment of picks. If Watson was truly their RD1 target, then they're possibly in the position to trade back and still obtain their target while gaining a late RD1 or very early RD2. Let's say late RD1 and they get Cam Robinson...RT, check. So, they've got Watson and Robinson. They have their early RD2 and can possibly trade back to gather a few more picks between RD2 and RD3. Dawkins, Moton, or Pocic while still getting Cunningham. RD3 would've still been Foreman but now there would be an opportunity to add a S. That could've meant a haul of RD1: QB- Watson, OT- Robinson or LB- Watt; RD2: OT- Dawkins, OG- Moton or OG- Pocic, ILB- Cunningham; RD3: RB- Foreman plus a CB or S in the first 3 rounds.....instead of signing and then paying to get rid of Osweiler.

 

[dream_team]

I'd like to bring out the "Hindsight 20/20" mirror and wonder out loud, what if....

...McNair and RS had decided not to get involved with the QB position and not traded for Osweiler. Texans would've known last year what they're only finding out this year...Savage is not the answer for O'Brien's offense. The team could've let Savage go for an extended period and then had Weeden finish the year. Sure the team probably finishes with 4 or 5 wins but imagine where they would be if they had gone this route.....

...Texans 4 or 5 win season puts them inside the 2018 NFL Draft's 12th pick. They could've drafted Watson with the knowledge that no trade up would've been required and he would've been taking all the first team snaps from Day1. Since Osweiler was never traded for, the Texans are still enjoying all their 2018 NFL Draft picks and have plenty of cap space still available. Savage is probably released or traded for a RD7 pick (could he be worse than Keenum's RD6 return?) and the team re-signs Weeden to be backup this season. The best part....

...with the team finishing badly in 2016, they possess a decent draft position throughout and still have their full compliment of picks. If Watson was truly their RD1 target, then they're possibly in the position to trade back and still obtain their target while gaining a late RD1 or very early RD2. Let's say late RD1 and they get Cam Robinson...RT, check. So, they've got Watson and Robinson. They have their early RD2 and can possibly trade back to gather a few more picks between RD2 and RD3. Dawkins, Moton, or Pocic while still getting Cunningham. RD3 would've still been Foreman but now there would be an opportunity to add a S. That could've meant a haul of RD1: QB- Watson, OT- Robinson or LB- Watt; RD2: OT- Dawkins, OG- Moton or OG- Pocic, ILB- Cunningham; RD3: RB- Foreman plus a CB or S in the first 3 rounds.....instead of signing and then paying to get rid of Osweiler.

So you’re saying Osweiler is 4-5 wins better than Savage? Because honestly, with Savage as the starter last season, I still think they finish 9-7 and in playoffs.

 

[Texansballer74]

I was rereading this thread and this post struck me. I thought it was very interesting I want to comment a few lines:

drawing X's and O's on a chalkboard: I still think OB is quite good at understanding X's and O's. His coaching clinic had that clear to me.

I will leave it up to everyone to describe how clear his explanations are. Perhaps OB understands it, but he can't teach it to the players effectively?

calling time outs: Up until this year, I was pretty impressed with his game management. Although, I had not been following as closely as you all. I think his issues was adjusting his play calling style as the strengths of the team shifted. I understand if you want to blame him for the poor QB play for those 3 years, but he did decently well in working around that limitation.

Our position coaches aren't up to the necessary standard: First off, the impact of position coaches is can be quite large. The drop off in play when the Patriots O-line coach temporarily retired was massive. The Patriots are well coached, from top to bottom.

Suppose you are correct on your assessment of the position coaches. Who is to blame for that? Will that improve significantly by getting a new coaching staff? Would it be better to give OB more time to find better position coaches?

O'Brien has effectively destroyed our veteran presence on offense that can aid those coaches: Would you mind explaining how he destroyed that? Sorry if you have written about it elsewhere and I missed it.

Man execute the X's and O's with your freaking game plan with all your QB'S on game day. Stop switching up the game plan too. We know the man knows football.

 

[Texecutioner]

And the three teams we had beaten were Cincinnati, Tennessee and Cleveland who collectively are 9-18. So once again, even with a great QB the only thing Bill O'Brien's Texan's could do was take out the trash just like Bill O'Brien's Texan's have always done. Before you point out we were without a couple of key players on defense, I would point out we were better with Watson even without those players, yet the results were the same.

Unfortunately, from what I'm hearing in the local sports media we may have lost more with the loss of Watson than just this season. It sounds like his injury has given O'Brien a free pass and nothing he can do going forward will threaten his job. So the same guy who had a losing record with Watson for seven games this year will be back next year so we can do it all over again.

And remember this is the quarterback whisperer. The guy who told us we should be proud of Mallet and Hoyer, the guy who wasted an entire preseason getting Savage ready because he thought he was better than Watson. I get so tired of seeing our team held back by the front office and coaching.

What a ridiculously stupid post^^

We lost Watt, Mercilous, Johnson, and a few others before that on the defense.

They also had losses to NE, KC, SD, and Jacksonville. Those are 3 of the top teams in the AFC. The top two teams in the AFC actually.

And they were still 3-4 with a rookie QB that was on his way to being in the MVP of the year talks and they also lose him.

 

[Dread-Head]

True but we were playing against officiating crews in the New England AND Seattle Games.

 

[DocBar]

True but we were playing against officiating crews in the New England AND Seattle Games.

Where have you been hiding?

 

[ColeThornton]

What a ridiculously stupid post^^

We lost Watt, Mercilous, Johnson, and a few others before that on the defense.

They also had losses to NE, KC, SD, and Jacksonville. Those are 3 of the top teams in the AFC. The top two teams in the AFC actually.

And they were still 3-4 with a rookie QB that was on his way to being in the MVP of the year talks and they also lose him.

From the original post:

"Before you point out we were without a couple of key players on defense, I would point out we were better with Watson even without those players, yet the results were the same."

While Watson was healthy this was the best team O'Brien has had talent wise because of Watson. Everyone except the Texans seemed to understand the importance of a great QB, look how long it took them to finally spend a high draft pick on one. Even with the injuries on defense, this was a better team imho. But once again OB's guys can only beat the terrible teams and lose to every good team they played... and once again, as always there are those to make excuses for them. Do you think if O'Brien goes 6 and 10 this year he should get his contract extended? With this organization, it wouldn't surprise me. And remember, the guy playing QB now was O'Brien's starter when the season began... you know, the quarterback whisperer.

 

[JB]

From the original post:

"Before you point out we were without a couple of key players on defense, I would point out we were better with Watson even without those players, yet the results were the same."

While Watson was healthy this was the best team O'Brien has had talent wise because of Watson. Everyone except the Texans seemed to understand the importance of a great QB, look how long it took them to finally spend a high draft pick on one. Even with the injuries on defense, this was a better team imho. But once again OB's guys can only beat the terrible teams and lose to every good team they played... and once again, as always there are those to make excuses for them. Do you think if O'Brien goes 6 and 10 this year he should get his contract extended? With this organization, it wouldn't surprise me. And remember, the guy playing QB now was O'Brien's starter when the season began... you know, the quarterback whisperer.

This has all been said, and said yet again and then re-hashed a time or two...

What good does it do to complain yet again over what didn't happen?

Got any viable solutions for moving forward?.

 

[OptimisticTexan]

Well, by most accounts McNair has been toeing the water of mediocrity for 15 years. He didn't keep enough professional distance between himself and RS, which might be why he has a real hard time holding him responsible for the current state of the team.

Everyone seems to believe that O'Brien holds most of the cards in regards to the talent he sends RS to find, but he made one pretty telling statement when he said, "I just coach the players they give me" or something along those lines. That statement would make me think that RS has been pulling the strings in regards to the talent. Another might be the photo from their War Room after the Watson pick was announced, I shouldn't be the only one who noticed RS to be the only excited face in that room...hell, he was the only one standing. Now O'Brien did get his act together after the draft and seemed to be 100% behind the pick but, IMHO he wasn't behind the price paid for the pick and who knows, this may have included a little disgust at that moment with the Osweiler fiasco.

O'Brien seemed (now) to be pretty sold on starting Watson right away but all of a sudden RS wants Savage to start the season, guess who started the season. Could be another reason O'Brien yanked him so quickly...his statement to RS, I tried it your way now I'm going to do it my way. I wonder if RS's motivation for starting Savage had anything to do with the doubts he had in regards to the talent he had assembled on the OL? There is plenty of information and game evidence out there to throw on this fire...but it doesn't really matter until the McNair's think it should.

In all honesty, since McNair doesn't have it in him to make the tough calls and winning is not his ultimate priority...the best gift he could give the City of Houston and his kids would be the massively profitable proceeds from selling the Texans to new owner who would prioritize winning...since even more money seems to follow in the wake of being a successful franchise. As astute a businessman as McNair is outside of the NFL, it's tough to rationalize how he hasn't wrapped his mind around the bigger picture.

 

[steelbtexan]

Well, by most accounts McNair has been toeing the water of mediocrity for 15 years. He didn't keep enough professional distance between himself and RS, which might be why he has a real hard time holding him responsible for the current state of the team.

Everyone seems to believe that O'Brien holds most of the cards in regards to the talent he sends RS after but, he made one pretty telling statement when he said, "I just coach the players they give me" or something along those lines. That statement would make me think that RS has been pulling the strings in regards to the talent. Another might be the photo from their War Room after the Watson pick was announced, I shouldn't be the only one who noticed RS to be the only excited face in that room...hell, he was the only one standing. Now O'Brien did get his act together after the draft and seemed to be 100% behind the pick but, IMHO he wasn't behind the price paid for the pick and who knows, this may have included a little disgust at that moment with the Osweiler fiasco.

O'Brien seemed (now) to be pretty sold on starting Watson right away but all of a sudden RS wants Savage to start the season, guess who started the season. Could be another reason O'Brien yanked him so quickly...his statement to RS, I tried it your way now I'm going to do it my way. I wonder if RS's motivation for starting Savage had anything to do with the doubts he had in regards to the talent he had assembled on the OL? There is plenty of information and game evidence out there to throw on this fire...but it doesn't really matter until the McNair's think it should.

In all honesty, since McNair doesn't have it in him to make the tough calls and winning is not his ultimate priority...the best gift he could give the City of Houston and his kids would be the massively profitable proceeds from selling the Texans to new owner who would prioritize winning...since even more money seems to follow in the wake of being a successful franchise. As astute a businessman as McNair is outside of the NFL, it's tough to rationalize how he hasn't wrapped his mind around the bigger picture.

Well said,

2010 is when I began to realize this. Fans would have to be in denial to think otherwise. There should be somekind of Fans Anonymous Group.

Oh wait, there is # Texans Talk.

 

[JB]

In all honesty, since McNair doesn't have it in him to make the tough calls and winning is not his ultimate priority...the best gift he could give the City of Houston and his kids would be the massively profitable proceeds from selling the Texans to new owner who would prioritize winning...since even more money seems to follow in the wake of being a successful franchise. As astute a businessman as McNair is outside of the NFL, it's tough to rationalize how he hasn't wrapped his mind around the bigger picture.

What tough calls are you talking about? OB and RS both say they have never had to go to McNair to settle a disagreement. If they're truly working together then they are doing what McNair wants. They may not do it worth a **** but that is a different story. Do you really want McNair making every decision?

 

[banned1976]

Other than in game coaching mistakes I've kind of taken a back seat on placing blame to either RS or O'Brien. I simply don't know what goes on between the 2 of them. I felt the same way about Kubiak and Smith back in 2013 which is why I wanted both of them gone. And that's exactly how I feel about this current duo.

In the end though, O'Brien will be the fall guy. I don't think it will happen this year, but after his contract expires in 2018 he's gone. There are just too many holes on this team, including but not limited to a severe lack of depth for the 2018 Texans players to save O'Brien's job.

As for Smith, Watson alone saves his job. And if that is indeed the case I hope McNair allows Smith to hire the next HC. I've resigned myself in knowing Smith will be here for years so might as well let him have control of hiring the people he wants.

 

[Thorsson]

I think the best scenario would be for the Browns to trade a first round draft pick to the Texans again. Don't laugh, the Browns front office is probably the dumbest in NFL history!

 

[steelbtexan]

Other than in game coaching mistakes I've kind of taken a back seat on placing blame to either RS or O'Brien. I simply don't know what goes on between the 2 of them. I felt the same way about Kubiak and Smith back in 2013 which is why I wanted both of them gone. And that's exactly how I feel about this current duo.

In the end though, O'Brien will be the fall guy. I don't think it will happen this year, but after his contract expires in 2018 he's gone. There are just too many holes on this team, including but not limited to a severe lack of depth for the 2018 Texans players to save O'Brien's job.

As for Smith, Watson alone saves his job. And if that is indeed the case I hope McNair allows Smith to hire the next HC. I've resigned myself in knowing Smith will be here for years so might as well let him have control of hiring the people he wants.

I was going to like this post until the last paragraph. No way I want Ricky giving us Lovie Smith. Of course if McNair lets Ricky hire his HC, I'm sure that will be a failed regime and the McNair's will finally have to let the godfather go.

With that said, if this happens I'm not sure I've got another 5 yrs of watching Ricky fail of fandom in me.

 

[banned1976]

I was going to like this post until the last paragraph. No way I want Ricky giving us Lovie Smith. Of course if McNair lets Ricky hire his HC, I'm sure that will be a failed regime and the McNair's will finally have to let the godfather go.

With that said, if this happens I'm not sure I've got another 5 yrs of watching Ricky fail of fandom in me.

The reason I want Smith hiring his very own HC (that is IF he survives the next few years and unfortunately I think he will) is that way if THAT coach fails Smith shares that failure. He wouldn't have an excuse because that coach would be HIS guy.

So I had a bit of a hidden agenda when I wrote that last paragraph.

 

[OptimisticTexan]

What tough calls are you talking about? OB and RS both say they have never had to go to McNair to settle a disagreement. If they're truly working together then they are doing what McNair wants. They may not do it worth a **** but that is a different story. Do you really want McNair making every decision?

Making a move in regards to RS's performance as his GM. I'm pretty sure RS would like to pull the plug on O'Brien but O'Brien was McNair's pick and this may have forced RS to find a different way to make this happen so he could bring in his coach. This really seems like one of those passive aggressive situations going on behind the scenes.

 

[JB]

Making a move in regards to RS's performance as his GM. I'm pretty sure RS would like to pull the plug on O'Brien but O'Brien was McNair's pick and this may have forced RS to find a way to find a different way to make this happen so he can bring in his coach. This really seems like one of those passive aggressive situations going on behind the scenes.

I think that's a reach... and a fairly long one, but that is just my opinion