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In hindsight, was O'Brien's decision in not pulling Hoyer in the Wildcard game pure genius

Mangler

Mangler

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Think about it. Had Hoyer been pulled after the first half, he might have still been on the roster right now, and his performance written off as an "off" or "bad" day. Maybe this was O'Brien's only way to get his point across to McNair so the front office could stop neglecting the offense.

What say you?
 
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wow, the OP completely changed since my first post in this thread
 
Get the point across to McNair? You think it's McNair who's been telling OB to bring in these crappy QBs the last 2 years? I think not. It's OB bringing these turds in so I'd ease up using his name and genius in the same sentence for now.
 
JB said:
You mean you didn't mean to post the bit about his apparent dumbass moves that were later universally recognized as pure genius? Yeah, I wouldn't admit to posting that either
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I don't know what you're talking about...
 
Mangler said:
I don't know what you're talking about...
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yeah ok, but I'm sure an admin could pull it back up if it became necessary. I should have quoted the post to preserve it to prevent your denial and backsliding. Or you could just own up to what you stated
 
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sink or swim, he was either going to rise to the occasion or bust.. you had to know.. so we know now he's gone.. Some of the intangibles are hard to know till you know..
 
JB said:
yeah ok, but I'm sure an admin could pull it back up if it became necessary. I should have quoted the post to preserve it to prevent your denial and backsliding. Or you could just own up to what you stated
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Calm down, Private Eye. I've already explained what it was. A post that was posted by mistake. I accidentally hit post as I put my phone in my pocket. What's the punishment for posting something by accident? Life without parole?
 
Mangler said:
Think about it. Had Hoyer been pulled after the first half, he might have still been on the roster right now, and his performance written off as an "off" or "bad" day. Maybe this was O'Brien's only way to get his point across to McNair so the front office could stop neglecting the offense.

What say you?
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I think that had he been pulled the Texans might have managed to pull out a win with Brandon Weeden at QB and almost certainly gone on to lose the following week. I don't think that he'd still be on the roster this season though even if he'd come in to that hypothetical second round game in relief and looked OK. I think by the time the season ended the Texans were done with Hoyer. I really do. Fitzpatrick played better than Hoyer (IMO) the previous year and they had no qualms about sending him on his way so I don't think Hoyer had some kind of lock on a roster spot.

I really think O'Brien learned a lot last year between Mallett and Hoyer involving when to pull a player, when to leave him in (when to walk away and when to run). Hoyer's performance in the regular season was enough to show what kind of player he was. The playoff game was just a huge exclamation point at the end of it all.

I also don't think that anyone had to get their point across to McNair. I think we had the QB's O'Brien wanted last year and if anything he's the one who learned the "It's time to finally do something with the QB position" lesson.

Pure supposition on my part.
 
Mangler said:
Think about it. Had Hoyer been pulled after the first half, he might have still been on the roster right now, and his performance written off as an "off" or "bad" day. Maybe this was O'Brien's only way to get his point across to McNair so the front office could stop neglecting the offense.

What say you?
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No.
 
Mangler said:
Think about it. Had Hoyer been pulled after the first half, he might have still been on the roster right now, and his performance written off as an "off" or "bad" day. Maybe this was O'Brien's only way to get his point across to McNair so the front office could stop neglecting the offense.

What say you?
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Hell no, I don't run my car without oil and servicing it just cause I want a new car. Simple I continue to take care of it and just get a new one when I'm ready. Plus Hoyer was OBs boy I'm sure he left him in hope to prove he was "right".
 
There's no "genius" in having a good idea of how good your team is at the outset of the season.......which I believe every HC more or less knows where their teams max out at by the time wk 1 rolls around. Having said that, I think OB looked at it differently. He saw that this team was at best a 1st round playoff team & as long as he got them there, regardless of how or with whom, he was fine with the job he'd done for the year. So whether he was looking at it from that standpoint or some other angle is irrelevant, He'd gotten this team to max out at what he thought they could do...everything else was just icing on the cake. If Hoyer stepped up great, we go further in the playoffs, if not, hey we maxed out & we hit the offseason & upgrade. It's a win for him & this team no matter what.
 
Mr teX said:
There's no "genius" in having a good idea of how good your team is at the outset of the season.......which I believe every HC more or less knows where their teams max out at by the time wk 1 rolls around. Having said that, I think OB looked at it differently. He saw that this team was at best a 1st round playoff team & as long as he got them there, regardless of how or with whom, he was fine with the job he'd done for the year. So whether he was looking at it from that standpoint or some other angle is irrelevant, He'd gotten this team to max out at what he thought they could do...everything else was just icing on the cake. If Hoyer stepped up great, we go further in the playoffs, if not, hey we maxed out & we hit the offseason & upgrade. It's a win for him & this team no matter what.
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OB's actions at qb didn't scream well thought out plan.

Top level competitors don't think like that.

If a coach believes they can make the NFL playoffs, they believe have a chance to win it all. And if they don't, then they shouldn't be coaching an NFL team.
 
Mr teX said:
There's no "genius" in having a good idea of how good your team is at the outset of the season.......which I believe every HC more or less knows where their teams max out at by the time wk 1 rolls around. Having said that, I think OB looked at it differently. He saw that this team was at best a 1st round playoff team & as long as he got them there, regardless of how or with whom, he was fine with the job he'd done for the year. So whether he was looking at it from that standpoint or some other angle is irrelevant, He'd gotten this team to max out at what he thought they could do...everything else was just icing on the cake. If Hoyer stepped up great, we go further in the playoffs, if not, hey we maxed out & we hit the offseason & upgrade. It's a win for him & this team no matter what.
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That makes no sense to me. 1st round of the play offs means we're playing a wild card team. That particular game was 13-0 late in the third qtr. Better QB play & we could have won that game, regardless what he thought about his team at the beginning of the season.

You play to win the game. & he didn't. Brian Hoyer against a top 10 defense is giving up in my opinion. I don't know that Weeden would have been any better, but I'm positive it wouldn't have been any worse.
 
Mangler said:
Think about it. Had Hoyer been pulled after the first half, he might have still been on the roster right now, and his performance written off as an "off" or "bad" day. Maybe this was O'Brien's only way to get his point across to McNair so the front office could stop neglecting the offense.

What say you?
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McNair neglecting the offense???
O'Brien has control of the draft and who stays on the final 53 since he got here so he could have built the team the way he saw fit.
Others have said it better so no need for me to keep :deadhorse:
This was not part of some "genius" plan.
 
thunderkyss said:
That makes no sense to me. 1st round of the play offs means we're playing a wild card team. That particular game was 13-0 late in the third qtr. Better QB play & we could have won that game, regardless what he thought about his team at the beginning of the season.

You play to win the game. & he didn't. Brian Hoyer against a top 10 defense is giving up in my opinion. I don't know that Weeden would have been any better, but I'm positive it wouldn't have been any worse.
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And where was all that "we'll make changes as the game evolves to give us the best chance to win" crap that O'Brien was spewing when he first got here?? If ever there was a time to make changes, it was the 2nd half of that game. He didn't.
 
ObsiWan said:
And where was all that "we'll make changes as the game evolves to give us the best chance to win" crap that O'Brien was spewing when he first got here?? If ever there was a time to make changes, it was the 2nd half of that game. He didn't.
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Kubiak didn't think twice.... I'm just saying. Third turnover, time for a change.


We could have been SuperbOwl Champs. :tinfoil:
 
="xtruroyaltyx, post: 2615988, member: 55767

If a coach believes they can make the NFL playoffs, they believe have a chance to win it all.
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The"any given sunday" mantra sounds great in principle, the reality is...well, there's reality lol.

by nature coaches have to think like that...

when they're assess talent in the draft
when they call plays
when deciding on game plans

The very nature of a coach is to appraise situations, moods, fits and talent.

They may not acknowledge it, but best believe they have an idea of what they can probably expect.

So I think you're overestimating how divorced top level competitors are from reality. As far as OB, how he felt about individual players/position units on his team could've been totally different from how ready he felt they were to compete as team.. and although his actions don't scream well thought out plan as you say, they don't necessarily scream that he's been shooting from the hip all this time either. Coming off the qb play we had in 2013, there was 0 reason for him not to do what 99% of incoming HC's would do & select a qb in the 1st 2 round of his 1st or 2nd draft.

All im really saying is taken together, all his moves suggest that he's been gradually ramping up expectations for this team as he has reshaped it in his image at his own pace. & truthfully who can really criticize how it has gone so far?
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Hoyer should've never been on the roster in the first place. Complete waste of time.
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Yep. I like O'Brien so far, but I've got some mixed feelings, tbh.

On the one hand, it's a huge positive that he's been able to coach the team to winning seasons for his first two years with 7 QBs. He's obviously able to coach crappy/mediocre QBs up.

But, there is no escaping the little fact that the reason those crappy/mediocre QBs were even on the roster is because of O'Brien. Of course, there is slim pickin's ever year in the NFL off-season for QBs, so have to keep that in mind, as well.

This season will be very telling about O'Brien. He got a QB that he coveted, and Brock obviously has talent. So now to see what O'Brien can do with a player that appears to have much great potential than the previous 7 QBs.

As far as the OP's original premise, I do not think any of this has been some kind of master plan. I think NFL seasons are fluid and coaches and teams react in real time. There is no evil genius or brilliant mastermind behind events. They just happen.
 
thunderkyss said:
That makes no sense to me. 1st round of the play offs means we're playing a wild card team. That particular game was 13-0 late in the third qtr. Better QB play & we could have won that game, regardless what he thought about his team at the beginning of the season.

You play to win the game. & he didn't. Brian Hoyer against a top 10 defense is giving up in my opinion. I don't know that Weeden would have been any better, but I'm positive it wouldn't have been any worse.
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Lol, Brian Hoyer as opposed to who????

Brandon Weeden & all of his 1 win on the season & 3-8790797 record as a starter...with no starts in the playoffs?...look eerily similar to Hoyer's record.
TJ Yates? well, we weren't playing the Bengals so there's that.

I just think you guys are beating your head against the wall for nothing. What's funny is that many on here claiming that we could've won the game with just better qb play are the same folks that say we weren't a good team....... we were just lucky & backed into the playoffs due to a trash division. KC was the better team & they'd been the better team all year. They'd shown it in the reg. season & they showed it in the playoffs. End of story. Yes the game was 13-0 in the 3rd qtr. but lets be clear here, #1, "better" qb play wasn't there to be had on the roster. #2, we couldn't do **** on offense b/c we literally had no offensive threats outside of Hopkins. Yeah, you play to win the game........................................which is why OB reached into his bag of tricks & stuck Watt & Wilfork at HB/FB to try to force a score........................FAIL. #3, there defense wasn't exactly garbage either.

We had nothing for KC & the only reason why it was as close as it was early in the 3rd imo was b/c we'd played them early in the season, Maclin was banged up & didn't really play all that much & due to the NFL's silly ass rules we got the game at home. Sadly, it would've been worse had we faced Pitt.
 
Mr teX said:
We had nothing for KC & the only reason why it was as close as it was early in the 3rd imo was b/c we'd played them early in the season, Maclin was banged up & didn't really play all that much & due to the NFL's silly ass rules we got the game at home. Sadly, it would've been worse had we faced Pitt.
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This is the only part of your post that's relevant.

At that time of the season, no team is perfect. It's rare that you actually find one hitting on all cylinders. They weren't, we weren't.

& you're right. Our defense played their offense earlier in the year, so we had an idea of what to expect & was able to do a really good job for most of the game.

Just like their defense played so well in that earlier game that our QB was comfobulgasted & benched. They knew what to expect... most of us knew what to expect. It's only you & O'b who thought something different might happen.

Emanuel Lewis could have been our back up QB & it would have made more sense to start him.
 
thunderkyss said:
This is the only part of your post that's relevant.

At that time of the season, no team is perfect. It's rare that you actually find one hitting on all cylinders. They weren't, we weren't.

& you're right. Our defense played their offense earlier in the year, so we had an idea of what to expect & was able to do a really good job for most of the game.

Just like their defense played so well in that earlier game that our QB was comfobulgasted & benched. They knew what to expect... most of us knew what to expect. It's only you & O'b who thought something different might happen.

Emanuel Lewis could have been our back up QB & it would have made more sense to start him.
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LMAO, It's all relevant, you just refuse to acknowledge that the result was 99% likely going to be the same regardless of which career back-up on the roster we trotted out there that evening. If the score wound up 30-7 vs. 30-0 would that've made you feel any better? If it was Weeden or TJ Yates out there stinking it up would you have been any less embarrassed? Point is, KC was the better team even when they weren't hitting on all cylinders & arguing about the difference 1 career back up could've made vs. another is like arguing who's the tallest midget in the room.
 
Mr teX said:
LMAO, It's all relevant, you just refuse to acknowledge that the result was 99% likely going to be the same regardless of which career back-up on the roster we trotted out there that evening. If the score wound up 30-7 vs. 30-0 would that've made you feel any better? If it was Weeden or TJ Yates out there stinking it up would you have been any less embarrassed? Point is, KC was the better team even when they weren't hitting on all cylinders & arguing about the difference 1 career back up could've made vs. another is like arguing who's the tallest midget in the room.
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LMAO - except the "better team" for the season, on paper, in theory, by talent, etc. commonly loses to the better team that Sunday.
 
infantrycak said:
LMAO - except the "better team" for the season, on paper, in theory, by talent, etc. commonly loses to the inferior team that Sunday.
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I'm assuming you mean the bolded in your post in which case I somewhat agree. Yes wildcard weekend is the most likely time an upset is to occur, but I'm gonna back away from it being "common" unless you have #'s to say otherwise. Save for 2 years ago when it happened in 2 games in the playoffs I believe, more often than not the better team by record/talent or whatever usually wins unless some huge equalizer like the weather or rivalry comes into play. In any event KC had more defensive & offensive talent, their defense was at least as good as ours had been been...but they'd done it all year. Literally the only place we had an advantage over them was Nuk & JJ.
 
Mr teX said:
I'm assuming you mean the bolded in your post in which case I somewhat agree. Yes wildcard weekend is the most likely time an upset is to occur, but I'm gonna back away from it being "common" unless you have #'s to say otherwise. Save for 2 years ago when it happened in 2 games in the playoffs I believe, more often than not the better team by record/talent or whatever usually wins unless some huge equalizer like the weather comes into play. In any event KC had more defensive & offensive talent, their defense was at least as good as ours had been been...but they'd done it all year. Literally the only place we had an advantage over them was Nuk & JJ.
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Nope. I 100% disagree with you from the get go. The idea all the HCs know what they have is ludicrous imo. Teams develop, they react, it's a long season and someone steps up and inspires or someone falls flat. But on any Sunday... That day they win (absent odd bounce or blown call) they're the better team.

Please spare me the dissertation in response, we can just do the inevitable agree to disagree.
 
infantrycak said:
Nope. I 100% disagree with you from the get go. The idea all the HCs know what they have is ludicrous imo. Teams develop, they react, it's a long season and someone steps up and inspires. That day they win (absent odd bounce or blown call) they're the better team.

Please spare me the dissertation in response, we can just do the inevitable agree to disagree.
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Teams don't develop from a 6-10 type talented team to a 10-6 talented team during a season lol.
 
Mr teX said:
LMAO, It's all relevant, you just refuse to acknowledge that the result was 99% likely going to be the same regardless of which career back-up on the roster we trotted out there that evening. If the score wound up 30-7 vs. 30-0 would that've made you feel any better? If it was Weeden or TJ Yates out there stinking it up would you have been any less embarrassed? Point is, KC was the better team even when they weren't hitting on all cylinders & arguing about the difference 1 career back up could've made vs. another is like arguing who's the tallest midget in the room.
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Well at least we would have recognized that Hoyer couldn't get it done and given someone else a chance to "improve our chances to win". We're just saying that even if your bullpen isn't the best you gotta give them a shot when the starter is getting knocked around the park.
 
no goal post move, just simply stating what I believe to be true. teams projected to be 6-10 at the start of the season are most likely going to be around there..maybe 1-2 wins better due to development & reaction as you say. & If analysts & gambling nuts on the outside can see that, I don't see how you guys figure HC's of those teams don't see that.
 
Mr teX said:
So I think you're overestimating how divorced top level competitors are from reality.
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No I just think you're wrong.

There is a difference between recognizing you are an underdog in theory/on paper and actually going into a competitive setting and placing a ceiling on your success.

This isn't just about the NFL. In life in general driven people don't do that.

Like cak said...teams get hot, catch lucky breaks...it'd be dumb to think hey my team can get to the playoffs and just getting there is good enough for me....this is someone at the top of there profession that we're talking about.
 
Mr teX said:
no goal post move, just simply stating what I believe to be true. teams projected to be 6-10 at the start of the season are most likely going to be around there..maybe 1-2 wins better due to development & reaction as you say. & If analysts & gambling nuts on the outside can see that, I don't see how you guys figure HC's of those teams don't see that.
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Uh-huh. 2013-14 45% of teams moved by 3+ games, 52% 2014-15. And I'm willing to bet not all those coaches saw those changes coming. The NFL is not as static nor disparate as you make it out to be.
 
Mr teX said:
LMAO, It's all relevant, you just refuse to acknowledge that the result was 99% likely going to be the same regardless of which career back-up on the roster we trotted out there that evening. If the score wound up 30-7 vs. 30-0 would that've made you feel any better? If it was Weeden or TJ Yates out there stinking it up would you have been any less embarrassed? Point is, KC was the better team even when they weren't hitting on all cylinders & arguing about the difference 1 career back up could've made vs. another is like arguing who's the tallest midget in the room.
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I don't agree that the result would have been the same. We very well could have won the game 16-10 if Weeden would have started, who knows?
 
Mr teX said:
...we were just lucky & backed into the playoffs due to a trash division. KC was the better team & they'd been the better team all year.

Sadly, it would've been worse had we faced Pitt.
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Week 16, the Jets beat the Patriots. Week 17 the Jets lose to the Bills.

If the Jets win that game, they're in the play offs, Pittsburgh is on the outside looking in, but you, Mr. Tex think it would have been worse, for us, if we played Pittsburgh. That we got lucky slipped into the playoffs winning a weak division. The Steelers who just eked out a win vs Cincinnati.


Sorry, I don't think the Bengals, Steelers, or the Chiefs (2015 Wild Card teams) are/were in a class above the Texans. Our defense vs their offense, very competitive. Our offense vs their defense, very competitive with TJ Yates. Not even close with Bryan Hoyer.

Hopefully we'll out class them with Osweiler....
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
No I just think you're wrong.

There is a difference between recognizing you are an underdog in theory/on paper and actually going into a competitive setting and placing a ceiling on your success.

This isn't just about the NFL. In life in general driven people don't do that.

Like cak said...teams get hot, catch lucky breaks...it'd be dumb to think hey my team can get to the playoffs and just getting there is good enough for me....this is someone at the top of there profession that we're talking about.
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There's no 1 way in how successful people think. KD's at the top of his profession, His drive to win a championship at all costs led him to do what he did this offseason...something he's more or less been villified for by other driven individuals in profession.

What successful people do is think honestly about their situation & where they are in the overall process of achieving their goal..& they sure as hell don't depend on lucky streaks either, they capitalize. OB honestly assessing his team last year as a 1st round playoff team at the outset, an improvement from his 1st year by the way, simply could've been him doing just that...that's really all i'm trying to say.

But then too, we've seen the wholesale changes on offense this offseason. It's easy to say that after the dismal playoff game he realized he needed to get better on offense. However, who's to say that the impetus for those changes weren't already in his mind going into the 2015 season?
 
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thunderkyss said:
Week 16, the Jets beat the Patriots. Week 17 the Jets lose to the Bills.

If the Jets win that game, they're in the play offs, Pittsburgh is on the outside looking in, but you, Mr. Tex think it would have been worse, for us, if we played Pittsburgh. That we got lucky slipped into the playoffs winning a weak division. The Steelers who just eked out a win vs Cincinnati.


Sorry, I don't think the Bengals, Steelers, or the Chiefs (2015 Wild Card teams) are/were in a class above the Texans. Our defense vs their offense, very competitive. Our offense vs their defense, very competitive with TJ Yates. Not even close with Bryan Hoyer.

Hopefully we'll out class them with Osweiler....
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1st of all, i didn't say the bolded...i said many on here said that.
.
.
.

If...Andrew Luck is healthy, possibility we don't win the division & we don't make the playoffs

If....Tyler Eifert doesn't catch a bad case of the dropsies, we probably don't win that monday night game against the bengals.

If we don't take bad losses to Mia, Buf & ATL throughout the season, maybe i'd think we were a better team.

If Ryan Mallet had accuracy & an alarm clock, he could be a franchise qb & we're not stuck with Hoyer.

If, If, If....i truly can do this all day if you'd like.

our offense vs. anyone's defense except the Jags & Titans was a joke & the fact that you think TJ Yates would've somehow made this huge difference is a joke. I respect what he's done as a texan, but damn dude you're way out of touch with how good he actually is.
 
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