infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Barring a miracle turnaround (guffaw) - no.
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"Is Obrien Really An NFL Caliber Head Coach"??
- Thread starter Phoenix
- Start date
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
I have been a big believer in OBrien... I am not sure how the blame for this horrid season should be distributed, but the team I am watching in 2015 appears very poorly coached... Disorganized, undisciplined, confused, panicked, and lacking identity.
I think I pretty much called for a fire sale after last game.
JB (one of the regulars here) didn't think it can happen this year.
I didn't want to get into an "argument", but I definitely can see the possibility.
The perplexing thing is that the defense incurs nowhere near the injury level like the offense does.
Texian
Hall of Fame
IMO Yes because of multiple reasons, 1. I think O'Brien came in demanding respect and he didn't necessarily earn it. As a result there is now some resentment and it has begun to show in how bad the team performs across the board. This demanding respect thing seems to be a common flaw with many Belichick assistants and the reason why they ran McDaniels out of Denver and Pioli out of Kansas City. They all seem to have the propensity to piss people off. 2. To top it off O'Brien has made some really bone head decisions that have taken the team a couple of steps backwards instead of a step forward and that probably hasn't set well with many of the players either.
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dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
No doubt. I am wondering if he is the cause, or if he is someone that can solve these problems quicker than his potential replacement.
The fact that he's had two offseasons to solve the QB situation and done nothing (Fitz , Hoyer & Mullet) is enough that he should be fired .... Now no matter who the coach is , assuming they draft a QB , we'll have to wait a year or two for him to mature ..... putting the franchise 2 years or more away from contention IF the guy they draft doesn't suck ..... and with the current talent evaluators its a real possibility they screw it up.
Add to that the total disarray of the entire team , bad special teams , bad offense (what's a TE?!) and a defense that cant stop a pop warner team .... yeah , its apparent he's in over his head.
The entire coaching staff and GM needs to be canned for this huge regression ....
Knowing McNair and the conversations I've had with him in the past ..... I don't see it happening during the season.
Miami just dumped their coach for starting 1-3 after going 8-8 .... This Texans squad has taken a bigger step back than they have and looks just as bad if not worse with much better talent (accept at QB).
It may not be McNair's way of doing business ..... but his way hasn't gotten the desired results , maybe its time he tried something else .... an in season shake up would be a start.
False Start
On # 69
Maybe he can get some advice from AJ Hinch. Have Mallet be the starter, bring in someone off the street for a middle/long reliever and have Hoyer (ugh) be the closer.
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
I'm usually someone who errs on the conservative approach of allowing a coach ample time and resources to prove himself. At this point, I've seen enough. And honestly, I'm shocked that I've reached that conclusion only five games in.
It's just astonishing. Just thinking of all the coaching decisions that led up to this point. At the time, many of us thought those questionable decisions were just stepping stones toward the grand vision that only O'Brien saw.
Nope! Turns out they were just bad decisions. Really, really bad decisions. Red flags that somehow the entire NFL consuming public could see, but O'Brien ignored.
Respecting fundamental truths about the NFL is for other coaches, other organizations. O'Brien was going to blaze his own path.
Can someone please find the statistic on the number of special teams plays that we are penalized on? I'm certain we're well over 50%.
The unusually high number of penalties on offense, defense, and ST's in every game is a sign of no discipline. Lacking discipline is a precursor to losing the players. There is no way O'Brien makes it to game 16 before losing this locker room.
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I didn't say he didn't deserve it, I just don't think that McNair has the gumption to make the change this early. Maybe not at all unless it becomes clear to him that OB has lost the locker room which he very well may have. I haven't seen the games so don't know the effort being put out but it sounds like they are just playing stupid, not not playing.
While Im sure being a HC is A LOT harder than it looks........ there CAN'T be too many things harder than watching this train wreck of a season unfold..... and yet everyone of us is managing.
I say we put on "Coach the Texans for a game" lotto raffles.
TBH I like our chances for a competent season more with any random forum member at the helm.
Sadly, Im only HALF kidding.
I say we put on "Coach the Texans for a game" lotto raffles.
TBH I like our chances for a competent season more with any random forum member at the helm.
Sadly, Im only HALF kidding.
Surreal McCoy
Rookie
No. But at least he holds people accountable!
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Congratulations. I'm down 220 lbs., so I needed a little help. Whatever works.
That should be the Texans new theme.
If I were OB, I'd lay this all on McNnair & Hard Knocks. Looks like a lot of the work we should have done hasn't been. Hopefully it's being done now.
Hopefully they'll figure out who their starters are on both sides of the ball & start putting together a team. An offense, a defense... special teams.
We're out of time. We have to find a way to Jacksonville, Miami, & Tennessee. Can't go into the bye any worse than 4-4
Hopefully they'll figure out who their starters are on both sides of the ball & start putting together a team. An offense, a defense... special teams.
We're out of time. We have to find a way to Jacksonville, Miami, & Tennessee. Can't go into the bye any worse than 4-4
amazing80
Hall of Fame
lol just stop, the season is over. we will be lucky to win 4 total games
Totally get why you feel this way, but this is likely driven by last night's game. The Texans were actually one of the least penalized teams in the league going into last night. They went into that game averaging just 6.75 penalties per game. Last night they doubled their average with 13 flags.
It's hard to find the exact stat you're asking for, but I can assure you they are well below 50%. As you may imagine there are so many special teams plays in a game that if any team were THAT bad, it would be on every talk show today. Not trying to defend O'Brien in the least. Just offering up any information that helps give a better idea of what problems are and where they lay.
Here are some other 2015 penalty numbers that I found either interesting or noteworthy. Make of them what you will... (Note: these are accepted penalties)
Total penalties by unit
Offense: 14
Defense: 18
Special Teams: 8
The most penalized players are
E Pleasant: 5
K Jackson: 3
J Clowney: 3
K Johnson: 3
Infraction most often committed
False start: 6
Offensive Holding: 5
Defensive Holding: 4
Last night was the first time all year the Texans were flagged for face mask, chop block and unsportsmanlike conduct. It was a very chippy game.
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Flyingfish
Waterboy
If OB was truly holding people accountable, first thing this morning he would:
1. Demand McNair fire Rick Smith for the "talent" he has provided.
2. Call his old pal RAC in and putting him out to pasture (insert Vrabel as DC for the rest of the season). A non-performing defense with that much talent is an embarrassment.
3. Call in the DB coach and putting him on "do or die" notice.
4. Put the entire secondary on "do or die" notice. Start benching/cutting and bringing in new blood to replace the failures.
5. Call Godsey in and demoting him back to QB coach or firing him (OB takes that responsibility back). The offense always being unprepared is an embarrassment.
6. Call in the WR coach and giving him "do or die" on getting the WRs to catch the damn ball.
7. Call in the WRs and putting them on "do or die" notice on getting open and catching the ball, as well as setting up intensive, "after-practice" practice with the high speed Jugs machine.
8. Bench/cut non-performing WR's and bring in some off the bench or practice squads - no more of this "they don't practice good enough" crap. If the WRs are going to be slow, they have to run perfect routes and catch the damn ball...or start looking for another team.
9. Assign Foster additional "how not to fumble" and catching he ball drills.
10. Look in the mirror and honestly evaluate how he has totally screwed up the QB situation. Put Hoyer back on the bench and tell him he is the backup. Put Mallett back in and tell him the full offense is not at his disposal (and the OC should actually call the plays that way) and that OB will not bench him. Mallet should be allowed to develop or bench himself - do not hold him responsible for bad game plans and play calling, WRs and TEs that cannot get open or catch, or Foster not being able to hold on to the ball. If the rest of the offense is doing its part and Mallett fails, then bench or cut him.
Damn, this isn't rocket science.
1. Demand McNair fire Rick Smith for the "talent" he has provided.
2. Call his old pal RAC in and putting him out to pasture (insert Vrabel as DC for the rest of the season). A non-performing defense with that much talent is an embarrassment.
3. Call in the DB coach and putting him on "do or die" notice.
4. Put the entire secondary on "do or die" notice. Start benching/cutting and bringing in new blood to replace the failures.
5. Call Godsey in and demoting him back to QB coach or firing him (OB takes that responsibility back). The offense always being unprepared is an embarrassment.
6. Call in the WR coach and giving him "do or die" on getting the WRs to catch the damn ball.
7. Call in the WRs and putting them on "do or die" notice on getting open and catching the ball, as well as setting up intensive, "after-practice" practice with the high speed Jugs machine.
8. Bench/cut non-performing WR's and bring in some off the bench or practice squads - no more of this "they don't practice good enough" crap. If the WRs are going to be slow, they have to run perfect routes and catch the damn ball...or start looking for another team.
9. Assign Foster additional "how not to fumble" and catching he ball drills.
10. Look in the mirror and honestly evaluate how he has totally screwed up the QB situation. Put Hoyer back on the bench and tell him he is the backup. Put Mallett back in and tell him the full offense is not at his disposal (and the OC should actually call the plays that way) and that OB will not bench him. Mallet should be allowed to develop or bench himself - do not hold him responsible for bad game plans and play calling, WRs and TEs that cannot get open or catch, or Foster not being able to hold on to the ball. If the rest of the offense is doing its part and Mallett fails, then bench or cut him.
Damn, this isn't rocket science.
If we don't get any better. I don't think we will either. But we'll see.
I don't think OB is as good as I thought he would be.
I'm on the Kyle Shanahan for HC train. lol
Unless somethING came up about a player that they didn't k iw before acquiring him, it's going to be hard to lay this at the feet of Rick Smith.
Say XSF has struggled with weight his entire college career & that's what is keeping him off the field. Or Jalen Strong isn't coachable. Or Clowney had medical issues we didn't see. Or Nix had chronic knee problems.
Other than that, OB sat in that same room with Rick & determined which players we should acquire.
Now, if Rick assured OB that Teddy would be there at 33, or that Lockett would be there a few picks later, or that Savage was the best QB in the draft after Bridgewater, I can see him laying it on Rick.
Now Cal can demand Rick gets fired, but he won't. McNair can decide he's had enough... but OB can't make that demand. He's as complicit for the 90 guys he took into camp & is solely responsible for the 53 that made it through.
I saw twice a player was sent on to the field to relieve another & that player said no. Once it was Clowney the other time it was Joseph. Clowney's looked like a normal rotation thing. Joseph's was after another blown coverage. Both times you could see the coaches upset on the sideline.
Flyingfish
Waterboy
It's Ricks history of "talent" evaluation, not just this season. Everyone could see that Schaub had peaked and was on his downside - was a successor ever drafted? When a QB talent is available (talent, not a JAG QB), Belichick drafts QBs, Green Bay drafts QBs, other teams with established QBs draft QBs. However, the Texans check out the scrap piles or reach for a JAG QB. BTW, Montgomery was a head case in college, the scouts were warned, yet a 3rd round pick was wasted on him. There are plenty of others.
You knew you had to have a QB, but you would not trade a pick to move up and ensure that you could get Bridgewater? Yet you traded picks to move up and draft players that are already cut and gone? You don't think that a draft that featured Clowney and Bridgewater would not have been viewed as genius?
I don't have the list of wasted draft picks eriadoc compiled on another thread, but it is Exhibit A as to Rick's lack of judgment. I hope he weighs in with his list. It shows the level of ineptitude as the Texans not only wasted picks on players, they wasted additional picks trading to get in position to draft those players.
XSF did have a weight problem in college, but his talent and weight were OK in college. Jalen Strong showed last night he should be on the field. Clowney did have injury issues senior year. Not to say they weren't worth drafting (except for XSF).
You knew you had to have a QB, but you would not trade a pick to move up and ensure that you could get Bridgewater? Yet you traded picks to move up and draft players that are already cut and gone? You don't think that a draft that featured Clowney and Bridgewater would not have been viewed as genius?
I don't have the list of wasted draft picks eriadoc compiled on another thread, but it is Exhibit A as to Rick's lack of judgment. I hope he weighs in with his list. It shows the level of ineptitude as the Texans not only wasted picks on players, they wasted additional picks trading to get in position to draft those players.
XSF did have a weight problem in college, but his talent and weight were OK in college. Jalen Strong showed last night he should be on the field. Clowney did have injury issues senior year. Not to say they weren't worth drafting (except for XSF).
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
Totally get why you feel this way, but this is likely driven by last night's game. The Texans were actually one of the least penalized teams in the league going into last night. They went into that game averaging just 6.75 penalties per game. Last night they doubled their average with 13 flags.
It's hard to find the exact stat you're asking for, but I can assure you they are well below 50%. As you may imagine there are so many special teams plays in a game that if any team were THAT bad, it would be on every talk show today. Not trying to defend O'Brien in the least. Just offering up any information that helps give a better idea of what problems are and where they lay.
Here are some other 2015 penalty numbers that I found either interesting or noteworthy. Make of them what you will... (Note: these are accepted penalties)
Total penalties by unit
Offense: 14
Defense: 18
Special Teams: 8
The most penalized players are
E Pleasant: 5
K Jackson: 3
J Clowney: 3
K Johnson: 3
Infraction most often committed
False start: 6
Offensive Holding: 5
Defensive Holding: 4
Last night was the first time all year the Texans were flagged for face mask, chop block and unsportsmanlike conduct. It was a very chippy game.
Awesome, thanks for looking that up.
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
This was a lot of people's fear with O'Brien going in. I had thought that there would be no way he would make that mind of mistake, because really, how could anyone make that mistake in today's NFL?
Another example of O'Brien thinking he could prevail over conventional wisdom by the power of his personality.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
I forgot to add Seth Paynes comments yesterday at lunch. He mentioned how he thought a few players were half-assing plays when he re-watched the Falcons game. He said he wanted to wait until after last nights game to make anything of it. Meltzer said he wanted names if we lost last night. Well, I doubt Seth would call players out, but it'll be interesting to see if he sees the same type crap
To be honest, man, I really don't care (not about your opinion, but about Gary Kubiak).
Kubiak is ancient history, and I truly don't give a **** about debating who or what he is or was.
My whole point was that I can understand if someone calls him a so-called "QB guru" (whatever that means), and I can understand the counter argument, as well.
I just don't really give a rat's ass, and have no desire to defend or attack the guy.
Sadly, he's still the best head coach this franchise has ever had, which is a low standard, but will remain in place until the guy replacing O'Brien has a chance.
Your "problem" in these types of conversations is assuming things that are not true and making things personal, as well as taking a hardline black and white perspective. I do not mean this as disrespect, but just observation.
I was never wishful thinking about Kubiak, I'm glad he's gone (it was time), but I'm not going to act like he did nothing for this franchise. I always said he is a head coach in the vein of Marty Schottenheimer. Good enough to eventually get a team to the playoffs, but not able to get the team over the hump to a championship.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Seth also said the game was going to be lost by the first one to turn the ball over .
markn
All Pro
This is a very good question and one that's very difficult to answer unless we know the actual division of responsibilities. With the lack if further clarification of those, I'd be forced to apportion it: 50% The QB whisperer; and 50% The owners son whisperer.
Bulls on Parade
2017 Astros: Earn It!
Guess who the scape-goat will eventually be?
George Godsey. As Rick Smith amazingly keeps his job.
And Bill O'Brien gets a vote of confidence from Bob McNair.
O'Brien will just be tasked with hiring a better offensive coordinator.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
The Texans have created a vague situation. I don't care to parse it anymore. Talent, to QB, to bad coaching the pair of OB & Smith sucks across the board. They can go have a bedroom fight about apportionment after they both get fired.
yep, well said. I'm done debating the arrangement of deck chairs on the Titanic.
We know what we see, we feel it in our collective guts, and it is obvious.
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
"Vague" is a good way to put it, because it's hard to identify the root cause or causes of what we're watching. In the world of technical troubleshooting, when the timeframe to resolve the problem is a factor, root cause becomes less important and you just do wholesale hardware replacement.
So yeah, fire them both.
I don't believe that a guy that finishes 2nd in coach of the year voting suddenly forgot how to coach. When Hoyer came in last night the offense looked completely different to me. We had WRs open consistently. Now player personnel is another matter. We've had subpar results in this arena since Kubiak's tenure and the one constant has been Smith. He needs to go as GM, and if some of the decisions on players comes from this staff then a stronger GM with more say and the power to over rule might be what we need. The 2 coaches I'm most concerned about are ST and RAC. Both of these units have been abysmal all season. If it continues I'd fire both and hire the best 2 guys I can find. I'm in favor of firing RAC right now and seeing what Vrabel can do.
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
This is pretty much the main indicator that O'Brien will be fired.
Brian T. Smith @ChronBrianSmith 4h4 hours ago
More damning for #Texans than endless QB drama: Lack of discipline, focus, inensity at start of O'Brien's second year.
Brian T. Smith @ChronBrianSmith 4h4 hours ago
More damning for #Texans than endless QB drama: Lack of discipline, focus, inensity at start of O'Brien's second year.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Looks like some players are rumbling about the head coach.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Jayson Braddock @JaysonBraddockPlayers in the locker room have compared the situation with this coaching staff to a "college environment".
10:33 PM - 8 Oc
Jayson Braddock– @JaysonBraddock
A lot of players aren't buying what the Texans' coaching staff is selling, any more. Have some players checked out on these coaches? Yes
8:34 PM - 8 Oct 2015
Xtruroyatyx has hit the nail on the head. Obrien & Godsey think they can coach grown men like they coached college kids....you can't ....and the veteran players are not going to risk injuries for these coaches by playing all out full throttle. Rumors are already seeping out that the veteran players have no faith in these coaches & are not buying in. Chip Kelly has made the same mistake...
Players in the locker room have compared the situation with this coaching staff to a "college environment".
10:33 PM - 8 Oc
Jayson Braddock– @JaysonBraddock
A lot of players aren't buying what the Texans' coaching staff is selling, any more. Have some players checked out on these coaches? Yes
8:34 PM - 8 Oct 2015
speedfreek
All Pro
Hire a college coach. get a college environment..
(might even be happening in philly..)
(might even be happening in philly..)
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Bob would like that if it was Orel Roberts University .
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
McNair would love it if it was Oral Roberts University .
EVOLVIST
Kid A
In all due respect (and I mean, in ALL due respect), we've already been over this point ad nauseum when Schaub and Keenum were in-house.
The backup can hear the playcall through his helmet. There's nothing to read between those lines.
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
Players in the locker room have compared the situation with this coaching staff to a "college environment".
This is related to my point about O'Brien not appreciating fundamental truths about the NFL. The first mistake is not seeking and investing in the best QB available, and the second is implementing a college approach to professional players.
Seriously, how many other coaches had already made those mistakes and served as cautionary tales? But he just went out and did what everyone in the business should know not to do.
My criticism of O'Brien would be much more restrained if he had simply attempted the right approach and failed.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Just about any of us could have penned the sentiments of that article .... LoL.