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Kansas City Chiefs @ Houston Texans. Noon. 9/13. CBS. **Official Liberty White Thread**

Scooter said:
And yeah preseason matters. Leaving Watt out would be ok if he played a more straight forward game, but he doesn't and the guys running those stunts and playing off of him need the work playing beside his changes. Leaving 3 starters out let them look a bit rusty and hampered communication as well as familiarity on the field.
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Yep. Good thing is that familiarity is fixable.
 
Hugely disappointing. No other words for the game.

I do see some silver linings.

I think Hoyer was directly responsible for 2 KC touchdowns. a NET -4 points for him on the day.

I think Mallett gets the start in Carolina.

Special teams were horrid.

I think the defense played really well in the 2nd half shutting the Chiefs out.

I think the defense did a good job limiting Charles on the ground to under 50 yards.

Seeing Clowney out there was really encouraging.
 
sandman said:
Charles had 16 rushes and only 4 of them went for more than 4 yards. He had 8 rushes that were less than 2 yards, including 3 TFL's. 57 total yards, with 35 coming on three carries. At halftime he had 7 yards. He did have 38 yards receiving in the 1st quarter on three catches, but only had 2 more catches for 8 yards for the rest of the game. I thought they did a damn fine job on Charles. Touched the ball 21 times and only had 5 plays over 10 yards (and three of those were 11 yards).
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We sold out to contain their run game. It worked. However, by selling out to stop the run we left the short passing game completely wide open because we played soft coverage on the back end to protect against the big play. Re-watch the game (if you have it in you, won't blame you if you don't), every single short route for KC is wide open. Like not a guy within 5 yards open. Then watch the Texans on offense. Every single short route is smothered.

KC was aggressive on defense. They took the risk and played a lot of 1-on-1 down the field. It worked. We were not aggressive. We played it safe and tried to stack the LOS while also protecting the back end. That left the middle of the field wide open and KC exploited it. The Texans try to act aggressive on defense but they continually refuse to take risks. You want to put pressure on a team up front then you have to take some risks and play some 1-on-1 on the back end. We've yet to find a DC who has the balls to do that and we will never field an elite defense until we do.

The fact that we just let Smith dink and dunk all day and didn't force him to play downfield is beyond me. Dink and dunk is his MO. We let him do exactly what he was most comfortable doing.
 
WolverineFan said:
We sold out to contain their run game. It worked. However, by selling out to stop the run we left the short passing game completely wide open because we played soft coverage on the back end to protect against the big play. Re-watch the game (if you have it in you, won't blame you if you don't), every single short route for KC is wide open. Like not a guy within 5 yards open. Then watch the Texans on offense. Every single short route is smothered.

KC was aggressive on defense. They took the risk and played a lot of 1-on-1 down the field. It worked. We were not aggressive. We played it safe and tried to stack the LOS while also protecting the back end. That left the middle of the field wide open and KC exploited it. The Texans try to act aggressive on defense but they continually refuse to take risks. You want to put pressure on a team up front then you have to take some risks and play some 1-on-1 on the back end. We've yet to find a DC who has the balls to do that and we will never field an elite defense until we do.

The fact that we just let Smith dink and dunk all day and didn't force him to play downfield is beyond me. Dink and dunk is his MO. We let him do exactly what he was most comfortable doing.
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Maybe we need some TE's on our team so our LB's can learn how to cover one.
 
Vance87 said:
The thing is, Carolina has a good D (although they may be minus Luke next week) so it'll be a bit tough to evaluate if Hoyer sucks...is it him or just good defense...although the bonehead plays (like the opening INT) would be obvious...
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Jmo, but it's not hard to evaluate at all. Some of the things he does may work better against inferior defenses, but holding the ball until a wr is clearly open aka no anticipation, poor pocket presence and the lack of arm talent aren't things that are going to change against NFL defenses.
 
Thorn said:
I swear if they announce Hoyer as the starter for the 2nd game I'm going to scream.
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Honestly, we were so clearly outplayed and outcoached in all three phases that I could see OB giving Hoyer a mulligan on this one.
 
bah007 said:
Honestly, we were so clearly outplayed and outcoached in all three phases that I could see OB giving Hoyer a mulligan on this one.
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I know that one play shouldn't dictate a game, and I don't think it did, but I do believe that Hoyer int to start the game really took a lot out of the team.

Defense was on the field first. Let's not forget. They stopped KC. Punt. Hoyer comes on and immediately throws a pick backed up in our own end.

Thats pretty bad. Not to mention another turnover later in the game in a similar situation and just an overall poor performance.

There was no other unit that was worse than the qb position up until Mallett came in. And that is with the missed extra point and the defensive lapses.

Even if every other unit plays great we still struggle to win that game with that performance from our qb. At that position you need a player that can at least be Alex smith level in today's NFL. Limit turnovers, help facilitate the offense and move the chains.

You cannot win with your qb throwing int's in the redzone on the first offensive series, fumbling, not reading the blitz, and making poor throws.

Not unless we are handicapped and spotted 14 every week.
 
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The fact OB pulled Hoyer late in the game, not even after a turnover should also play a role here. He was missing reads and throws. He was very inaccurate throughout the game. That has always been his knock. Inaccurate. That's why so many of us were confused when he was named starter because of his "accuracy and consistency". That is his worst qualities.
 
amazing80 said:
The fact OB pulled Hoyer late in the game, not even after a turnover should also play a role here. He was missing reads and throws. He was very inaccurate throughout the game. That has always been his knock. Inaccurate. That's why so many of us were confused when he was named starter because of his "accuracy and consistency". That is his worst qualities.
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This was a screaming siren red flag from the get go. Hoyer the 55% college and pro QB being touted as the "accurate" one.
 
Highlight of the game right here:

mWg79sWY7BWoNhJDxFasuClOpQUbEqrsM1KCwWgWTD5Kby3Vu0BlIlry6rIBICL-DZFalqxNUdCvRj56gYI5WETfAKgbRQpZVzzq8KhjWc6phKM2I7MLfkTL_AppFvWFageabiSpYkhUCL2Xt8LodlTbmwMbZCiOrvenLELMskzSkxL3L6sfVz01S2MM2Qsb2SvJPwtr1XfaRct2Qi3pjxSnX88HiQyUFtjpVXOF40sXIVA=s0-d-e1-ft
 
Mr teX said:
Roughly the same I suppose...south of 1%
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Exactly. So people (not saying you) need to STFU about play selection there. It's a f'k it don't get a pick 6 play selection. Generally coaches go conservative in that scenario. It's kind of ignorant to consider that a Kubiak or OB play.
 
amazing80 said:
The fact OB pulled Hoyer late in the game, not even after a turnover should also play a role here. He was missing reads and throws. He was very inaccurate throughout the game. That has always been his knock. Inaccurate. That's why so many of us were confused when he was named starter because of his "accuracy and consistency". That is his worst qualities.
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Don't forget how he responded to what was going on around him. He was ill equipped to handle NFl speed. He was slow, indecisive, & confused.

I'd have a hard time putting someone like that on the field.

If OB does though, shouldn't that tell us something about Mallett?

I confess, I believe the competition was a farce. But Hoyer starts next week, he knows something about Mallett we don't.
 
infantrycak said:
So what do you estimate the percentage was that Hoyer was gonna complete a pass to the right team for 22 yards for a 1st down lol.
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If he didn't have his feet on the goal line, I bet OB would have let him give it a shot.
 
infantrycak said:
Look back at the play selection with the Texans on their 5 and then 1 - Ravens vs. Texans.
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I'm just agreeing with you. The last two times Hoyer was in that situation, we called a pass play. The first resulted in an int. The second ended with a fumble.

OB wanted no part of a hat trick.
 
Bulls on Parade said:
The Texans out-scored the Chiefs 11-0 in the 2nd half. Our defense looked pretty damn good and played with more energy in that 2nd half. Even Travis Kelce who had a pair of TD catches in the first half, one uncovered and untouched, was absolutely drilled by Kevin Johnson and laid on the ground for a few minutes. He later returned. Apparently it's not as easy to score when you're actually being hit.

I just wish we had started that way. We came out flat. The Hoyer turnover early on ruined the field position game right after our defense forced a punt and couldn't catch their breath. Chiefs took a 7-0 lead. We spiraled out of control from there. But very encouraging 2nd half we can take into the Panthers game.

I expected us to play like we did in the 2nd half for the entire game...
We obviously have the talent to beat the Chiefs. Just a shame we lost 27-20.

Hopefully we don't miss out on an AFC wild-card spot by one game to the Chiefs. Like 2009 when we lost to the Jets at home Week 1. Ended up barely missing the playoffs because the Jets owned the tiebreaker at 9-7. Hell, we lost that game to the Jets 24-7 and were dominated statistically if I recall. This wasn't even as bad but a loss is a loss.

The real question is whether or not Ryan Mallett will start Week 2? I think he deserves it for lighting a fire under the offense late in the 4th quarter. With Brian Hoyer our offense looked flat and turnover prone.
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That's called garbage time. The Chiefs took their foot off the pedal. Many Texan D's have had respectability, stats-wise, off of garbage time. Sure, take Hoyer's two turnovers deep in his own redzone off the board, and the Texans D looks better, but you can't take them off the board. They happened.

Last season, the D feasted on turnovers in those situations. I pointed out that you can't count on those turnovers. This D was pretty well held in check by a very inexperienced Chiefs OL. Not a good sign. Well, everyone not named JJ Watt.

I agree with OB. The Texans were out-coached and outplayed at every level. Color me unimpressed by the year two debut of the Houston Texans. It's only one game, but the Texans were on their heels the whole game. I say that after rewatching the game on Game Pass.
 
thunderkyss said:
Don't forget how he responded to what was going on around him. He was ill equipped to handle NFl speed. He was slow, indecisive, & confused.

I'd have a hard time putting someone like that on the field.

If OB does though, shouldn't that tell us something about Mallett?

I confess, I believe the competition was a farce. But Hoyer starts next week, he knows something about Mallett we don't.
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Why did we resign him then?

Why trade for then re sign a guy that you don't really want to play and keep making him the number two behind nobodies?

I think OB just fucked up and just has continued to compound his mistakes there.


He needs to rethink his thoughts regarding that position because sonfar he's failed.
 
DocBar said:
That's called garbage time. The Chiefs took their foot off the pedal. Many Texan D's have had respectability, stats-wise, off of garbage time. Sure, take Hoyer's two turnovers deep in his own redzone off the board, and the Texans D looks better, but you can't take them off the board. They happened.

Last season, the D feasted on turnovers in those situations. I pointed out that you can't count on those turnovers. This D was pretty well held in check by a very inexperienced Chiefs OL. Not a good sign. Well, everyone not named JJ Watt.

I agree with OB. The Texans were out-coached and outplayed at every level. Color me unimpressed by the year two debut of the Houston Texans. It's only one game, but the Texans were on their heels the whole game. I say that after rewatching the game on Game Pass.
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Fair enough. But as bad as it seemed it was a close score and 27-20 final.
This game was still within reach late. We failed to recover an onside kick.
As bad as it was we were making an attempt to potentially steal it late.

I didn't like that coverage breakdown on the second TD catch by Kelce. I also didn't like that "no call" pass interference on Nate Washington in the corner of the end zone. That cost us 4 points as we kicked a Field Goal instead. I didn't like the 4th and 1 turnover on downs that potentially cost us at least 3 points if we had elected to try a Field Goal. That was following a DeAndre Hopkins dropped pass on 3rd and 1 on a quick screen. He makes that catch in his sleep and with one hand. Not sure how he dropped it.

I didn't like the missed extra point by Randy Bullock. We left at least 8 points on the table in a game we lost by 7 points. And that's not taking into account how poorly Brian Hoyer played and the turnovers we made to give the Chiefs a short field on two of their Touchdowns.


I sort of feel like we beat ourselves with so many mistakes.
And yet, the game was still within reach late. I'm not terribly upset.
We can correct most, if not all, of the mistakes we made. We'll be alright.
 
sandman said:
Yep. Good thing is that familiarity is fixable.
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W-l"s aren't replaceable, though. The starting D having a few snaps together in PS might've been beneficial. Find your rainbows where you may, but this 1st game of 2015 was ugly for the Texans.
 
Bulls on Parade said:
Fair enough. But as bad as it seemed it was a close score and 27-20 final.
This game was still within reach late. We failed to recover an onside kick.
As bad as it was we were making an attempt to potentially steal it late.

I didn't like that coverage breakdown on the second TD catch by Kelce. I also didn't like that "no call" pass interference on Nate Washington in the corner of the end zone. That cost us 4 points as we kicked a Field Goal instead. I didn't like the 4th and 1 turnover on downs that potentially cost us at least 3 points if we had elected to try a Field Goal. That was following a DeAndre Hopkins dropped pass on 3rd and 1 on a quick screen. He makes that catch in his sleep and with one hand. Not sure how he dropped it.

I didn't like the missed extra point by Randy Bullock. We left at least 8 points on the table in a game we lost by 7 points. And that's not taking into account how poorly Brian Hoyer played and the turnovers we made to give the Chiefs a short field on two of their Touchdowns.


I sort of feel like we beat ourselves with so many mistakes.
And yet, the game was still within reach late. I'm not terribly upset.
We can correct most, if not all, of the mistakes we made. We'll be alright.
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This was a bad day from the start. There were a few high points, but I'm seriously questioning OB's ability to manage a game and pick the right personnel to be on the field. The Texans definitely beat themselves, and it started with two turnovers in the red zone on the 1st two drives.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Why did we resign him then?

I think OB just fucked up and just has continued to compound his mistakes there.
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I agree. None of this makes sense. $5M for Hoyer. Getting into a bidding war for Hoyer to begin with doesn't make sense.

Then we low ball Ryan Mallett, as if we'd have been fine With Hoyer & Savage.

Then to sign him anyway & not Gove him the fair competition you've been talking about?

You saw Hoyer yesterday. If that guy starts next Sunday, something's got to be wrong. I mean Russian mafia human trafficking kingpin kind of wrong.
 
thunderkyss said:
Don't forget how he responded to what was going on around him. He was ill equipped to handle NFl speed. He was slow, indecisive, & confused.

I'd have a hard time putting someone like that on the field.

If OB does though, shouldn't that tell us something about Mallett?

I confess, I believe the competition was a farce. But Hoyer starts next week, he knows something about Mallett we don't.
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I disagree. I think we can see with our own eyes. What we see does not need to be filtered through O'Brien's eyes. It's clear OB wants Mallett, or he would not have traded for him, then resigned him. He simply does not want him to start. Perhaps he is afraid if he does, he will not get a chance to get Savage in there at some point in the next two years. Who knows.

thunderkyss said:
I agree. None of this makes sense. $5M for Hoyer. Getting into a bidding war for Hoyer to begin with doesn't make sense.

Then we low ball Ryan Mallett, as if we'd have been fine With Hoyer & Savage.

Then to sign him anyway & not Gove him the fair competition you've been talking about?

You saw Hoyer yesterday. If that guy starts next Sunday, something's got to be wrong. I mean Russian mafia human trafficking kingpin kind of wrong.
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Yeah, something will be wrong. Something with the head coach. If Mallett is as bad as you seem to think O'Brien thinks he is, the easiest way to shut the fans up is to put him in there a few games. I don't think it is something with Mallett, it is something with O'Brien.
 
Nitrofish said:
I disagree. I think we can see with our own eyes. What we see does not need to be filtered through O'Brien's eyes. It's clear OB wants Mallett, or he would not have traded for him, then resigned him. He simply does not want him to start. Perhaps he is afraid if he does, he will not get a chance to get Savage in there at some point in the next two years. Who knows.



Yeah, something will be wrong. Something with the head coach. If Mallett is as bad as you seem to think O'Brien thinks he is, the easiest way to shut the fans up is to put him in there a few games. I don't think it is something with Mallett, it is something with O'Brien.
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You're right. Something weird is going on in OB's head. He clearly wants Mallett around and yet almost resents him, certainly doesn't want him to start.

How easy would this have been:

OB: Ryan did a good job for us last year before he got injured. He won the job. We've brought in backup familiar in our system. Ryan is only going to grow from here. We think the options he brings to the table will diversify our offense, make us better able to plan each week....yada yada.
 
One thing that got me thinking was that some people said it was the prevent defense where Mallett got his points. Hoyer was in there towards the end of the 3rd and the beginning of the 4th and couldn't score points against the same prevent defense.
 
HOU-TEX said:
This loss was solely on OB and special teams, imo. It was Bills choice to go with Hoyer and it was Bills choice to wait until the game was practically out of hand before yanking him for Mallett. It was also Bills decision not to at least bring in competition for the fat aggie.

I can't remember the last time we had decent STs units. We can't block, our returners run around in circles when they do actually field the ball cleanly and we still can't cover worth a crap. Too damn slow. It pissed me off to no end when the Chiefs returner muffed the punt and we didn't have anyone within 10 yards.

The defense started very sluggish. However, Hoyer's pick gave the Chiefs the ball on our 13 and his fumble put the ball on the 7 for two easy scores. How much of that is on the defense? Maybe a tad, but imo, the defense gave up 13 points. We could say our redzone defense kinda blows.

OB spoke of Charles, Kelce and Smith all week and it didn't look like we really game planned at all for them. Leaving Kelce wide open was a stupid mistake.
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Johnson was both a Kicker and a Punter so there was a competition there. We need good gunners, but the ones who showed up in Preseason just couldn't cut it as position backups.
 
Dutchrudder said:
Highlight of the game right here:

mWg79sWY7BWoNhJDxFasuClOpQUbEqrsM1KCwWgWTD5Kby3Vu0BlIlry6rIBICL-DZFalqxNUdCvRj56gYI5WETfAKgbRQpZVzzq8KhjWc6phKM2I7MLfkTL_AppFvWFageabiSpYkhUCL2Xt8LodlTbmwMbZCiOrvenLELMskzSkxL3L6sfVz01S2MM2Qsb2SvJPwtr1XfaRct2Qi3pjxSnX88HiQyUFtjpVXOF40sXIVA=s0-d-e1-ft
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I think I remember saying on sat on how we will PLan to slow down KC good TE I didn't know the plan was just not to cover him on on his TD catch KJax was on him but hes to small IMO to cover a Big TE and it showed on that play
 
Norg said:
I think I remember saying on sat on how we will PLan to slow down KC good TE I didn't know the plan was just not to cover him on on his TD catch KJax was on him but hes to small IMO to cover a Big TE and it showed on that play
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Kevin Johnson hit him hard in the second half and he never got open again. Go out there and hit somebody and they won't embarrass you. He was on the ground a good while before slowly getting up. The Chiefs scored 0 points in the second half and our defense laid some wood out there. If only we had started the game that way. Let's hope we play with that type of passion and energy at Carolina. We have to carry over our good play from the second half, most notably defensively, into our next game and so forth.
 
Mollywhopper said:
So you're saying he's been in control of where his incompletions don't go?
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It means 5/10 with no interceptions is more "accurate" than 6/10 with an Interception in this context. Just add the play Hoyer can't make and a ? play that Mallett will make and Mallett becomes more "accurate." I suspect that is what OB was counting on and why he was so upset with Hoyer turning the ball over. Turnovers kill a teams chances.

It is also noteworthy that I can't remember being this far behind in TOP (24:41 - 35:19) since I started watching for it in 2011. It doesn't mean there wasn't a worse game, but I don't remember it.
 
Marshall said:
It means 5/10 with no interceptions is more "accurate" than 6/10 with an Interception in this context. Just add the play Hoyer can't make and a ? play that Mallett will make and Mallett becomes more "accurate." I suspect that is what OB was counting on and why he was so upset with Hoyer turning the ball over. Turnovers kill a teams chances.
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So he guided that 1 extra incompletion away from a defender because he's all of a sudden accurate enough to do so?

Dude, inaccurate is inaccurate. You're giving too much credit to the guy that can't hit the broad side of Reliant.
 
Mollywhopper said:
So he guided that 1 extra incompletion away from a defender because he's all of a sudden accurate enough to do so?

Dude, inaccurate is inaccurate. You're giving too much credit to the guy that can't hit the broad side of Reliant.
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Perhaps you're not giving enough credit to throwing the ball away rather than throwing it up for grabs or into too tight a window. the completion percentage which is used to define accuracy is really poor. Accurate throw aways are recorded as inaccurate. But Hoyers sacks are not considered part of the equation.

Accuracy SHOULD be defined as throwing it where you intended to with a separate category for decision making. Drops and throw aways should not be considered in a category defining accuracy. Getting rid of the ball before a blitz negates a negative play if it is accurately thrown away.

Once again, Hoyer failed to do the things that won him the job. But I'm not sure OB would make a change this quickly after naming him the starter. But I can't imagine him not saying the starter IS on a short leash at this point.
 
Marshall said:
Perhaps you're not giving enough credit to throwing the ball away rather than throwing it up for grabs or into too tight a window. the completion percentage which is used to define accuracy is really poor. Accurate throw aways are recorded as inaccurate. But Hoyers sacks are not considered part of the equation.

Accuracy SHOULD be defined as throwing it where you intended to with a separate category for decision making. Drops and throw aways should not be considered in a category defining accuracy. Getting rid of the ball before a blitz negates a negative play if it is accurately thrown away.

Once again, Hoyer failed to do the things that won him the job. But I'm not sure OB would make a change this quickly after naming him the starter. But I can't imagine him not saying the starter IS on a short leash at this point.
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Right, Hoyer's garbage completion percentage is chalked up to so many wise throwaways. Say that out loud.
 
Mollywhopper said:
Right, Hoyer's garbage completion percentage is chalked up to so many wise throwaways. Say that out loud.
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I'd really be interested in seeing a report which grades every decision and every throw separately. Separate the interceptions which were accurately thrown but bobbled by the receiver and sack avoiding incompletions. I'm not sure how different the accuracy ratings would be, but I suspect some variation.
 
Marshall said:
I'd really be interested in seeing a report which grades every decision and every throw separately. Separate the interceptions which were accurately thrown but bobbled by the receiver and sack avoiding incompletions. I'm not sure how different the accuracy ratings would be, but I suspect some variation.
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I get what you're saying. The flip could be to measure a rifle-armed QB's INT's against the rockets he completes through heavy traffic.

The fact is, in this case, Hoyer has had enough dropbacks to know that his career 56% is no more misleading than his other 44% of attempts.
 
Marshall said:
I'd really be interested in seeing a report which grades every decision and every throw separately. Separate the interceptions which were accurately thrown but bobbled by the receiver and sack avoiding incompletions. I'm not sure how different the accuracy ratings would be, but I suspect some variation.
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I'd like to see that report too, but ultimately just watching the games is often good enough to see if a qb is a victim of his surroundings or not.
 
santo said:
One thing that got me thinking was that some people said it was the prevent defense where Mallett got his points. Hoyer was in there towards the end of the 3rd and the beginning of the 4th and couldn't score points against the same prevent defense.
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KC was still teeing off when Hoyer was in there. There was no fear on their part whatsoever.

They absolutely did back off when Mallett came in. I'm not going to go so far as to call it prevent defense. But they definitely didn't blitz as much and they also put guys on top of the routes instead of under them.

Maybe they were going prevent to bleed clock. Maybe they were still playing competitive defense but just wanted to make sure they didn't get beat over the top. One 4th quarter isn't a big enough sample size. Regardless, Mallett didn't force the issue and took what they gave until he got us in the end zone.
 
Mollywhopper said:
I get what you're saying. The flip could be to measure a rifle-armed QB's INT's against the rockets he completes through heavy traffic.

The fact is, in this case, Hoyer has had enough dropbacks to know that his career 56% is no more misleading than his other 44% of attempts.
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Precisely. I hope that is being done by the dungeon boys/girls behind the scenes and presented to the coaches for their use.
 
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