Patriots under investigation

[Double Barrel]

Personally, I don't care for how the NFL handles its business. Having Goodell as the be all/end all of these kinds of decisions seems contrary to basic fairness. I understand that he's the 32 owners' $44 million attack dog, but sometimes you've got to put that dog on a leash to teach him boundaries.

 

[markn]

My view:
A) 100% certain the Patriots cheated and Brady was part of it.
B) 100% certain the NFL have failed to prove A).

 

[disaacks3]

So without having to go through and read a bunch of pages and pages worth of posts, what's been the general consensus in this thread? Did Brady do it or not?

Some things I have found interesting when doing some limited research on this.

1. I find it strange the Wells Report would choose to deny the very recollection of the lead official over which gauge he used. Walt Anderson said based on his best recollection, he used the Logo gauge but inexplicably, the Wells Report chooses to throw out his claim and says it was more likely he used the Non-Logo gauge.
2. If Brady did in fact like his footballs at the lowest allowed limit, would the Ideal Gas Law explain the loss of pressure?
3. Why did the NFL and Ted Wells tell Brady he didn't need to turn over his phone but instead could simply supply them with the phone records and they would hunt down the needed text messages, but now Brady's destruction of his own personal phone is their justification for the suspension? It makes no sense.
4. How much could Brady really stand to gain by lowering the pressure of his footballs by such a minuscule amount?
5. To continue with question 4, wouldn't it be more dangerous to the levels of the footballs for the equipment manager to use such a crude method to deflate the footballs? Seems like there would be a lot more to worry about in those 30-60 seconds the equipment manager spent in the bathroom, as he'd have had to be so quick deflating the balls that he could hardly have done so in any controlled way. Essentially, they'd have all been random readings based on the short amount of time he was in the restroom.

Anyway, I'd like to get some more opinions based on the information. I don't have a dog in the fight, but the whole thing seems a bit like a smear campaign. Why the NFL would do this is beyond me. Maybe Brady pissed off Goodell or something. But the whole thing seems rather fishy.

1. Two officials used two gauges - the variance between the Patriots balls and the Colts balls was borne out, no matter the gauge used.

2. Not really. They wouldn't be that far under. The only wacky hypothesis I've heard that helps the Pats case is the "conditioning" part wherein the ball pressure might be temporarily raised.

3. Brady declined to hand over the documents and/or phone on advice of his agent and later counsel. http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/08/04/tom-brady-suspension-ted-wells-testimony-text-messages

4. The balls are easier to grip, especially in cold, wet conditions. It's an edge. Balls were all at proper pressure for 2nd half (and miraculously didn't lose their pressure) and the Pats still torched the Colts.

5. Crude method? An inflation needle? It's already been tested by folks who don't have the necessary "practice" of one who calls himself the deflator. 90 seconds was plenty of time in the experiments to deflate the required number of balls. Use the same needle and the air comes out at the same rate every time. NOT rocket-science.

The judge asked Brady's lawyer a simple question - "Why would either one of them do that without Mr. Brady’s consent?"

Here's a couple for you to consider - Why would McNally -
A) Take balls from the Officials locker room at all?
B) Try to give an unapproved ball to an official?
http://heavy.com/sports/2015/02/jim-mcnally-patriots-locker-room-attendant-deflategate-bio-info-age/

For me, it's easy to say they are being unfair to Brady, and that the CBA had some really crappy terms in it.

What I'm not buying is that a really long sequence of events that point to a concerted effort to lower the air pressure of balls (wherein the aforementioned balls end up under the threshold) is some sort of wacky coincidence.

 

[Playoffs]

Stephen Brown ‏@PPVSRB

That might be one of the most concerning aspects of the hearing for Patriots fans, really.

Lastly, worth noting what Berman didn’t say. He didn’t challenge NFL on their argument that Goodell’s authority is enshrined in the CBA.

[Judge] Berman made a point to note that Brady almost certainly knew he was throwing deflated balls (tho Brady camp doesn’t concede that)​

 

[Say Watt]

I didn't spend quite as much time researching this as you did, but I went from "He's probably guilty" camp to "NFL really has no evidence and possibly has made things up" camp based on a couple of things.

1. Scientific conclusions were the clincher for me after the Wells report came out, but since then at least 2 other independent reports claimed that Wells report's scientific evidence and conclusions are flawed. To me this is a black and white issue. The evidence is either there or it's not.
2. The report that 10 out of 12 Patriots balls were underinflated was false. It was reported by espn originally, and I imagine it was a leak from the league office.

Yeah, I've wavered back and forth. What I can't get over is point #2 you mentioned. Seems pretty conspiratorial for the NFL to release a report so damning as 10 of 12 footballs being underinflated, yet that was completely false. Seems odd.

Personally, I don't care for how the NFL handles its business. Having Goodell as the be all/end all of these kinds of decisions seems contrary to basic fairness. I understand that he's the 32 owners' $44 million attack dog, but sometimes you've got to put that dog on a leash to teach him boundaries.

Definitely agree. Can't stand Goodell, and can't believe he's been granted the power of a mad dictator.

My view:
A) 100% certain the Patriots cheated and Brady was part of it.
B) 100% certain the NFL have failed to prove A).

Haha! This was great! I think you are likely on the money.

1. Two officials used two gauges - the variance between the Patriots balls and the Colts balls was borne out, no matter the gauge used.

2. Not really. They wouldn't be that far under. The only wacky hypothesis I've heard that helps the Pats case is the "conditioning" part wherein the ball pressure might be temporarily raised.

3. Brady declined to hand over the documents and/or phone on advice of his agent and later counsel. http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/08/04/tom-brady-suspension-ted-wells-testimony-text-messages

4. The balls are easier to grip, especially in cold, wet conditions. It's an edge. Balls were all at proper pressure for 2nd half (and miraculously didn't lose their pressure) and the Pats still torched the Colts.

5. Crude method? An inflation needle? It's already been tested by folks who don't have the necessary "practice" of one who calls himself the deflator. 90 seconds was plenty of time in the experiments to deflate the required number of balls. Use the same needle and the air comes out at the same rate every time. NOT rocket-science.

The judge asked Brady's lawyer a simple question - "Why would either one of them do that without Mr. Brady’s consent?"

Here's a couple for you to consider - Why would McNally -
A) Take balls from the Officials locker room at all?
B) Try to give an unapproved ball to an official?
http://heavy.com/sports/2015/02/jim-mcnally-patriots-locker-room-attendant-deflategate-bio-info-age/

For me, it's easy to say they are being unfair to Brady, and that the CBA had some really crappy terms in it.

What I'm not buying is that a really long sequence of events that point to a concerted effort to lower the air pressure of balls (wherein the aforementioned balls end up under the threshold) is some sort of wacky coincidence.

A lot of good stuff in this post. Thanks for taking the time to share.

1 & 2. The issues with the gauges is that the logo gauge tends to register higher levels thus when measured with the non-logo gauge at halftime, it caused a much bigger discrepancy. Had the logo gauge been used both times, as the official recalled he had done prior to the game, then the discrepancy would not have been as extreme and would have fallen within the range that could be explained by the Ideal Gas Law. So if the official is in fact correct that he used the logo gauge before the game and the non-logo gauge at halftime, this would seem to explain the significant drop in pressure.

3. Everything I have read suggests that Brady was told at the time he originally met with Wells that Wells had no interest in Brady's phone. All he wanted were the records. Yes, his agent advised him to hold onto it. Here's an interesting theory I just read about. Have you heard about the infamous trip to Las Vegas with Brady, Affleck, and the Nanny? Well there is an image circulating with Affleck's Nanny posing with all four of Brady's rings on her finger. There are rumors that something could have happened with Brady and the Nanny. Only reason I mention this is what if this is the reason Brady didn't want to hand over his phone? What if something incriminating was on it relating to his personal life that he did not want TMZ or another gossip source getting their hands on?

4. Certainly agree, but the levels simply aren't THAT extreme to offer a real sizable advantage. Case in point being what you mentioned about the Colts getting torched in the second half too. Brady didn't need significantly underinflated balls to beat the **** out of the Dolts.

5. By crude method, I meant dumping all the footballs in the ground, using the needle on each ball, and properly estimating the amount of time for each ball. Anyway, below is a pretty neat graph on the levels of the footballs. As you can see, they are pretty much all over the map with ball 7 on the highest end and balls 4 and 10 on the lowest end. If you're right, yeah the method seems rather crude. If I'm a QB, I'd rather not risk the minimal benefits and KNOW all my footballs are close to the same pressure rather than having them bounce all over the place in pressure.

We absolutely know Brady likes his footballs at the lowest end of the scale. He said so himself here: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/09/us/nfl-deflategate-timeline/

Brady talked about how he likes the footballs prepared for the game, the Wells report says, but said he knew nothing about the range of acceptable air pressure measurements until after a game against the New York Jets in October.

Brady said he asked to see the rules governing the inflation of the balls after that game and decided the target number for the Patriots footballs should be 12.5 psi.

This would make a ton of sense given the meltdown Brady had after the Jets game. He was visibly upset with the condition of the footballs, and it was at this point he learned where on the scale he liked his balls. Based on prior statements, before this point he simply went by feel. After the issues during the Jets game, he became more specific. This was when the nickname of "The Deflator" started being thrown around, since Brady was so specific in wanting the footballs at the lowest allowed level.

Anyway, maybe I just don't want to see the legacy of the greatest QB of my generation tainted. Tom Brady is probably the greatest QB of all-time not named Joe Montana. He's the closest thing to Joe Cool that football has seen. The whole thing just seems ridiculous that such an accomplished athlete would take such a dumb risk with something that could provide a minuscule advantage at best. That said, he wouldn't be the first athlete to do something stupid to gain an advantage regardless of how small.

Stephen Brown ‏@PPVSRB

That might be one of the most concerning aspects of the hearing for Patriots fans, really.

Lastly, worth noting what Berman didn’t say. He didn’t challenge NFL on their argument that Goodell’s authority is enshrined in the CBA.

[Judge] Berman made a point to note that Brady almost certainly knew he was throwing deflated balls (tho Brady camp doesn’t concede that)​

The last sentence might be one of the best points. It'd be interesting to do a test of holding a football at 12.5 psi and then holding another football at 11 or 11.5 psi to see how much of a noticeable difference there actually is.

 

[infantrycak]

Yeah, I've wavered back and forth. What I can't get over is point #2 you mentioned. Seems pretty conspiratorial for the NFL to release a report so damning as 10 of 12 footballs being underinflated, yet that was completely false. Seems odd.

It was not false. They were underinflated just not as much as originally reported.

 

[Marshall]

So without having to go through and read a bunch of pages and pages worth of posts, what's been the general consensus in this thread? Did Brady do it or not?

Some things I have found interesting when doing some limited research on this.

1. I find it strange the Wells Report would choose to deny the very recollection of the lead official over which gauge he used. Walt Anderson said based on his best recollection, he used the Logo gauge but inexplicably, the Wells Report chooses to throw out his claim and says it was more likely he used the Non-Logo gauge.
2. If Brady did in fact like his footballs at the lowest allowed limit, would the Ideal Gas Law explain the loss of pressure?
3. Why did the NFL and Ted Wells tell Brady he didn't need to turn over his phone but instead could simply supply them with the phone records and they would hunt down the needed text messages, but now Brady's destruction of his own personal phone is their justification for the suspension? It makes no sense.
4. How much could Brady really stand to gain by lowering the pressure of his footballs by such a minuscule amount?
5. To continue with question 4, wouldn't it be more dangerous to the levels of the footballs for the equipment manager to use such a crude method to deflate the footballs? Seems like there would be a lot more to worry about in those 30-60 seconds the equipment manager spent in the bathroom, as he'd have had to be so quick deflating the balls that he could hardly have done so in any controlled way. Essentially, they'd have all been random readings based on the short amount of time he was in the restroom.

Anyway, I'd like to get some more opinions based on the information. I don't have a dog in the fight, but the whole thing seems a bit like a smear campaign. Why the NFL would do this is beyond me. Maybe Brady pissed off Goodell or something. But the whole thing seems rather fishy.

While it has been a while, I've been an equipment manager. Deflating the footballs does not take complex equipment. Insert the needle and count to five (or ten) then withdraw the needle and you can fairly consistently reduce the pressure by the required amount. It just takes a little time beforehand to determine how long to count. This only became a competitive advantage when they started allowing each side to provide their own footballs for THEIR OWN QBs. The NFL SHOULD HAVE seen it coming. Perhaps it did.

 

[Marshall]

My view:
A) 100% certain the Patriots cheated and Brady was part of it.
B) 100% certain the NFL have failed to prove A).

Proof isn't a point. It is a range depending on what the standard required is for any particular forum. We are used to "beyond reasonable doubt" in criminal cases and "preponderance of the evidence" in civil cases. But the standard is even lower when you've given all the power away in the CBA to the commissioner. It is what HE says it is.

In the end, I don't think the Courts are willing to overturn a decision made by an arbitration process which was agreed to by both parties in their CBA, no matter how egregious.

And I thought the Patriots and Tom Brady got off too light. I'd look to the Saints penalties as floors. I'd also introduce a concept that penalties can also go UP when reviewed on appeal.

 

[paycheck71]

Proof isn't a point. It is a range depending on what the standard required is for any particular forum. We are used to "beyond reasonable doubt" in criminal cases and "preponderance of the evidence" in civil cases. But the standard is even lower when you've given all the power away in the CBA to the commissioner. It is what HE says it is.

In the end, I don't think the Courts are willing to overturn a decision made by an arbitration process which was agreed to by both parties in their CBA, no matter how egregious.

And I thought the Patriots and Tom Brady got off too light. I'd look to the Saints penalties as floors. I'd also introduce a concept that penalties can also go UP when reviewed on appeal.

That may be true, but I honestly don't know what the league and the owners are gaining by granting Goodell these ridiculous powers when it comes to discipline. IMO he has proven that he can't handle that part of his job by being inconsistent and unpredictable.

 

[Say Watt]

While it has been a while, I've been an equipment manager. Deflating the footballs does not take complex equipment. Insert the needle and count to five (or ten) then withdraw the needle and you can fairly consistently reduce the pressure by the required amount. It just takes a little time beforehand to determine how long to count. This only became a competitive advantage when they started allowing each side to provide their own footballs for THEIR OWN QBs. The NFL SHOULD HAVE seen it coming. Perhaps it did.

Took the words right out of my mouth with the bold. Before this incident, I never even knew each team was responsible for their own balls. I have never heard something so asinine as that. It just makes no sense. The NFL could have a guy whose only job at every game is to take care of the footballs. It's a multi-billion dollar business. They could keep the balls in a central location, keep each team's balls in a separate bag at the PSI requested by the QB, and be done with all the shenanigans.

 

[paycheck71]

Took the words right out of my mouth with the bold. Before this incident, I never even knew each team was responsible for their own balls. I have never heard something so asinine as that. It just makes no sense. The NFL could have a guy whose only job at every game is to take care of the footballs. It's a multi-billion dollar business. They could keep the balls in a central location, keep each team's balls in a separate bag at the PSI requested by the QB, and be done with all the shenanigans.

Incidentally, Brady and Manning lobbied the league to let them prep their own balls.

 

[ObsiWan]

oops, wrong thread

 

[infantrycak]

Took the words right out of my mouth with the bold. Before this incident, I never even knew each team was responsible for their own balls. I have never heard something so asinine as that. It just makes no sense. The NFL could have a guy whose only job at every game is to take care of the footballs. It's a multi-billion dollar business. They could keep the balls in a central location, keep each team's balls in a separate bag at the PSI requested by the QB, and be done with all the shenanigans.

It's not an issue of resources. The QBs have different preferences. One likes it pristine and another wants it scuffed into velour.

 

[Say Watt]

It's not an issue of resources. The QBs have different preferences. One likes it pristine and another wants it scuffed into velour.

Which is why I said you maintain separate bags (or whatever they use on the field) for each team based on what the QB wants, but the NFL should always have control of the footballs if they are going to make this such a major issue. They are essentially asking for something like this to happen by letting each team control their own footballs.

 

[Say Watt]

Incidentally, Brady and Manning lobbied the league to let them prep their own balls.

Did not know that. Very interesting! Not doubting you, but curious if you have a source for that.

 

[infantrycak]

Did not know that. Very interesting! Not doubting you, but curious if you have a source for that.

Link

But there's one thing you may not know. That NFL rule — that calls for each team to supply its own 12 balls for offense — hasn't always been the rule.

The change happened quietly in 2006 when two quarterbacks went to the league lobbying for a tweak in the NFL rulebook regarding how footballs were supplied. It garnered virtually no notice or media attention.

So little that you probably don't know then-Indianapolis Colts quarterback Peyton Manning led the intense effort to change the rules — along with Patriots quarterback Tom Brady.

 

[Say Watt]

Link

Cool. Thanks for sharing.

For the same reasons given in the article, I'd advocate having the NFL maintain control of the footballs but keep the balls separate for each team. If Brady wants his balls soft and Rodgers wants his balls hard, then let them have them that way. But to give them complete control the way they have is just asking for this crap to happen.

 

[Double Barrel]

Tom Brady Suspension Could Be Increased, Roger Goodell Warns In New ‘Deflategate’ Court Filing

As reported by Mike Florio of the NBC Pro Football Talk site, the NFL is now claiming that it holds the authority not only to uphold the bizarre four-game ban on Brady, but also to actually make the punishment even more severe, if Goodell so chooses.

The assertion that Goodell has the authority to increase Brady’s penalty could be seen as a power-grab on the part of the NFL commissioner — an implied threat to Brady that if he doesn’t drop his legal action now, he risks a more harsh suspension, possibly five or six games, if he loses in federal court.

An increased suspension would not only serve as a punitive measure against Brady for daring to challenge Goodell’s authority to dole out discipline regardless of evidence, but as a form of intimidation against future players who may consider taking the league to court over Goodell’s seemingly arbitrary discipline decisions.

Full article

The owners are crazy if they let the commish pull this kind of crap.

 

[infantrycak]

The owners are crazy if they let the commish pull this kind of crap.

Yeah, I'd say the crap here is Florio's.

This is not a regular appeal like in the court system where no new evidence is permitted. This issue is coming up because Brady's team is wanting to submit new evidence. That's fine in an NFL appeal but it becomes more like a miniature retrial and that carries the possibility of the result going either way.

 

[eriadoc]

It takes a special kind of d-bag to make me root for Goodell. But here we are.

 

[Marshall]

The owners are crazy if they let the commish pull this kind of crap.

I disagree and called for such action in another thread. As long as justice is delayed by a cost free appeals process, you will have every incentive to appeal based on wishful thinking rather than on legitimate argument. If you allow the defendants lawyer to define the evidence, there will never be any that meets his standard. The commish was empowered by the CBA and has no reason to ignore those powers just because a fanboy doesn't like it. Filing an appeal after such a LIGHT penalty only serves to further erode the integrity of the game.

 

[Playoffs]

Interesting tidbit from Andrew Brandt...

If Brady's suspension is upheld the team retains unpaid salary he would have earned, reimbursing them for the fine they incurred due to his air shenanigans... and that amount doesn't count against team salary cap.

 

[Marshall]

Interesting tidbit from Andrew Brandt...

If Brady's suspension is upheld the team retains unpaid salary he would have earned, reimbursing them for the fine they incurred due to his air shenanigans... and that amount doesn't count against team salary cap.

Which is an issue that should be brought up at the next round of the CBA negotiations, as is the arbitration process. But not NOW!

 

[steelbtexan]

I disagree and called for such action in another thread. As long as justice is delayed by a cost free appeals process, you will have every incentive to appeal based on wishful thinking rather than on legitimate argument. If you allow the defendants lawyer to define the evidence, there will never be any that meets his standard. The commish was empowered by the CBA and has no reason to ignore those powers just because a fanboy doesn't like it. Filing an appeal after such a LIGHT penalty only serves to further erode the integrity of the game.

If God'ell/Pash/Wells hadn't rigged the game I would agree with you.

The real question should be is justice being served. God'ell and his minions have been proven to be liars and should be treated as such. CBA not withstanding.

God'ell's NFL is turning into the WWE. After the evidence that God'ell lied and released thru Mortensen untrue info, would it make you think that God'ell could be in the business of rigging games? It wouldn't surprise me. (Just like the WWE)

 

[Double Barrel]

I disagree and called for such action in another thread. As long as justice is delayed by a cost free appeals process, you will have every incentive to appeal based on wishful thinking rather than on legitimate argument. If you allow the defendants lawyer to define the evidence, there will never be any that meets his standard. The commish was empowered by the CBA and has no reason to ignore those powers just because a fanboy doesn't like it. Filing an appeal after such a LIGHT penalty only serves to further erode the integrity of the game.

Integrity of the game is all bullshit eaten up by simpletons like you. Where are all the harsh penalties for everything else that compromises the so-called "integrity of the game"? The NFL's Biggest: Cheaters

 

[Marshall]

Integrity of the game is all bullshit eaten up by simpletons like you. Where are all the harsh penalties for everything else that compromises the so-called "integrity of the game"? The NFL's Biggest: Cheaters

I know about integrity, but you have me on knowing how a simpleton thinks.

 

[infantrycak]

Integrity of the game is all bullshit eaten up by simpletons like you. Where are all the harsh penalties for everything else that compromises the so-called "integrity of the game"? The NFL's Biggest: Cheaters

I don't think you are being quite fair. So folks got off with too little or no punishment before. So that bars trying to fix the problem?

Also, these issues/offenses are so unique it makes comparing punishments incredibly difficult if not futile.

Others will differ, but putting aside the 25 year time difference look at the Broncos example you have brought up several times v. deflategate.

This was a financial struggle for the team at the time so individuals on the back end of the financial operations made agreements with "Broncos players" (John Elway and Terrell Davis) to defer payments on their contracts to the future and in return promised to pay interest on the deferred amounts. Another player was promised that they wouldn't be waived prior to a certain date.

According to the league, both agreements triggered salary cap accounting issues.

Link

The Broncos got no competitive advantage out of that. It was off the field. That frankly does not challenge the integrity of the game as much as something designed to affect the play on the field.

 

[Double Barrel]

"Under the law the arbitrator doesn't have the authority to determine evidence will be cumulative. They can not just conclude that."
~ Judge Richard M. Berman

 

[infantrycak]

"Under the law the arbitrator doesn't have the authority to determine evidence will be cumulative. They can not just conclude that."
~ Judge Richard M. Berman

Got some context for that quote because it flies in the face of the Federal Rules of Evidence:

Rule 403. Excluding Relevant Evidence for Prejudice, Confusion, Waste of Time, or Other Reasons
The court may exclude relevant evidence if its probative value is substantially outweighed by a danger of one or more of the following: unfair prejudice, confusing the issues, misleading the jury, undue delay, wasting time, or needlessly presenting cumulative evidence.

Arbitrators generally have greater latitude than the courts.

 

[Playoffs]

Tony Dungy Says Peyton Manning Believed Patriots Were Bugging Locker Room

Former Indianapolis Colts coach Tony Dungy stated during an appearance on the Dan Patrick Show on Thursday that Peyton Manning became so concerned about the New England Patriots potentially bugging the opposing locker room at Gillette Stadium that he held meetings outside in the hallway.

Dungy didn't know whether the rumors were true, but Manning acted out of caution after talking with former Patriots players. When asked about the speculation, which surfaced from Peter King of Sports Illustrated in 2010 (via Chris Chase of Yahoo Sports), Dungy confirmed it, per Michael David Smith of Pro Football Talk.

"I know that that is very true, and, you know, as Peyton talked to guys who played for the Patriots, some of the guys who came over—whether it’s true or not he treated it as true," Dungy said. "We didn’t have a lot of strategy discussions inside the locker room there."​

 

[steelbtexan]

Tony Dungy Says Peyton Manning Believed Patriots Were Bugging Locker Room

Former Indianapolis Colts coach Tony Dungy stated during an appearance on the Dan Patrick Show on Thursday that Peyton Manning became so concerned about the New England Patriots potentially bugging the opposing locker room at Gillette Stadium that he held meetings outside in the hallway.

Dungy didn't know whether the rumors were true, but Manning acted out of caution after talking with former Patriots players. When asked about the speculation, which surfaced from Peter King of Sports Illustrated in 2010 (via Chris Chase of Yahoo Sports), Dungy confirmed it, per Michael David Smith of Pro Football Talk.

"I know that that is very true, and, you know, as Peyton talked to guys who played for the Patriots, some of the guys who came over—whether it’s true or not he treated it as true," Dungy said. "We didn’t have a lot of strategy discussions inside the locker room there."​

So this is the reason Belichick, Brady owned Dungy, Manning? Why did Carroll own Manning? Sounds like King Tony's making more excuses for his past failures. Tony tell us more about the Tampa yrs. Or better yet, don't.

 

[eriadoc]

So this is the reason Belichick, Brady owned Dungy, Manning? Why did Carroll own Manning? Sounds like King Tony's making more excuses for his past failures. Tony tell us more about the Tampa yrs. Or better yet, don't.

Where did you get that from? Does the Patriots past make you confident they couldn't have done this? I don't find it unbelievable that the Pats would do that. Sure, Manning has been something of a choke artist in big games, but he's not 0-fer in big games. It looks like to me the Pats seek every single edge they can get, and aren't too scrupulous about how they get them. It's a cumulative thing. Yeah, maybe the Pats "owned" the Colts and Manning, but it's not like Manning lost them all. Seems to me he beat them in the AFC championship game in the '06 season and went on to win a Super Bowl. Maybe Belichick wanted every edge he could get. We'll never know whether the Pats bugged the locker room, but it sounds like something they'd do and wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

[steelbtexan]

Where did you get that from? Does the Patriots past make you confident they couldn't have done this? I don't find it unbelievable that the Pats would do that. Sure, Manning has been something of a choke artist in big games, but he's not 0-fer in big games. It looks like to me the Pats seek every single edge they can get, and aren't too scrupulous about how they get them. It's a cumulative thing. Yeah, maybe the Pats "owned" the Colts and Manning, but it's not like Manning lost them all. Seems to me he beat them in the AFC championship game in the '06 season and went on to win a Super Bowl. Maybe Belichick wanted every edge he could get. We'll never know whether the Pats bugged the locker room, but it sounds like something they'd do and wouldn't surprise me in the least.

The 06 AFC championship game was gifyed to the Colts/Dungy/Manning by the refs. After seeing how God'ell has rigged this investigation do you believe he's past rigging games?

 

[Marshall]

"Under the law the arbitrator doesn't have the authority to determine evidence will be cumulative. They can not just conclude that."
~ Judge Richard M. Berman

I question the judges position. The law doesn't define the authority of the arbitrator or commissioner. The CBA does in this case. I suspect he's referencing court appointed arbitration law which does not apply unless it is referenced in the CBA.

While we may not agree on much, I respect Caks legal analysis, particularly on issues of jurisdiction and process.

 

[eriadoc]

The 06 AFC championship game was gifyed to the Colts/Dungy/Manning by the refs. After seeing how God'ell has rigged this investigation do you believe he's past rigging games?

I have an inherent mistrust of all humanity, so I wouldn't call it out of the question, no. I do think it's more likely that the Pats would cheat than the commissioner rig games, though - not that the two have anything to do with one another.

 

[steelbtexan]

I have an inherent mistrust of all humanity, so I wouldn't call it out of the question, no. I do think it's more likely that the Pats would cheat than the commissioner rig games, though - not that the two have anything to do with one another.

Both are likely. IMHO

Since it's been proven that both of them have integrity issues.

 

[disaacks3]

Got some context for that quote because it flies in the face of the Federal Rules of Evidence:

It all reads a lot harsher to a layman than it does to an appeals lawyer I'm guessing.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/deflat...or-is-spot-on---defense-crows--192153861.html

As for Brady not being allowed to question Pash about his role in Wells' report, Berman blasted Goodell's reasoning that it wasn't allowed because the testimony would be "cumulative."

"How would you know?" Berman asked if Pash didn't testify. When Nash downplayed Pash's contributions, Berman had none of it.

"Who else but Mr. Pash had the opportunity to edit the Wells report before it became public?" Berman asked. "Anybody?"

Nash returned to the CBA, which he says allows Goodell, as arbitrator, to make these calls.

"Under the law the arbitrator doesn't have the authority to determine evidence will be cumulative. They can not just conclude that. I would ask you, who else but Mr. Pash could have given testimony about his edits or how extensive they were? Who else could have possibly given the testimony of Mr. Pash? … What I am saying is it's not sufficient to just conclude his testimony would be cumulative."

 

[Playoffs]

NFL Owner on Deflategate: 'This Entire Episode Is Embarrassing Our Sport'

The NFL owner wanted to make two things clear when it comes to Tom Brady and Deflategate, one of the biggest land mines in NFL history. His words are important because it's possible—possible—his opinion is shared by not just some other owners, but also many others involved in the sport.

First, the owner reiterated something I've heard from others in the league: We all chose this. Meaning, the NFL signed a collective bargaining agreement with the union, giving the commissioner the power he now wields. Owners voted on it, this owner explained, just like the players union did. So for anyone from either side to complain about it now is wrong.

"We all agreed to this process," said the owner, who I've spoken to occasionally during Deflategate. "The union agreed to it, and the owners agreed to it. It's hypocritical for the union to say they hate the process or for Robert [Kraft] to put up such a fight. Robert didn't have a problem with the process when it was used against other teams."​

This notion was backed by another owner I spoke to, as well as several high-ranking team executives. Both owners, as well as the team officials, asked not to be identified.

And the process they're talking about? Goodell having total control, the final say on discipline issues, and wielding that power.

Before you think the owners are Patriots haters, they are far from it. Said the same owner quoted above: "Robert is the smartest man I've ever known. His anger over the Brady suspension made me think hard about Brady's guilt or innocence when originally I thought Brady was guilty. I totally trust and admire him.

"Because I admire Robert doesn't mean I can't disagree with him on what Roger is doing. You simply can't vote to give Roger the power he has, then get upset when he uses it."

***​

The second point the owner made was even more important.

"I agree with Roger being the voice of discipline," the owner said, "but it can't be denied that the process needs major tweaking. This process has hurt Tom, it's hurt Roger and it's hurt the NFL.

"This entire episode is embarrassing our sport. It makes us look horrible. Think about how long this has gone on. This shouldn't happen."

What should be done?

"I don't know," the owner said. "But I think there needs to be a discussion."

The other owner backed this idea, too. Again, the owner might speak for many.

The owner pointed to how Deflategate started in January and is still going. It was seven months to the day on Tuesday. It's been 215 days as of Friday. It took three days to go to the moon.

"Nothing like this happens in other leagues," the owner said. "Why our league?"

Again, these owners back Goodell, but this is the harshest I've heard any owner speak about the process. The same types of concerns about the case were expressed to me by several front-office sources.​

 

[WolverineFan]

I think the real question is if you have a bigger problem with the Pats possibly cheating or with the governing body (the NFL) possibly rigging the investigation process from the start in order to come to a pre-determined result all in the name of a PR stunt.

I hate cheating in sports. It ruins the entire concept of the competition. That being said, I don't think what NE did gave them a competitive advantage. Throw a bin full of 12.5 and 11.5 PSI footballs and you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference. This whole thing blew up because its the Pats and outrage by the other 31 teams' fans ensued. This is not one team full of steroid users playing a clean team. The Pats intentions here (if true) are dirty as hell but I don't think it changed the competitive aspect of the game one bit.

The NFL then tried to get out in front and scapegoat the Pats so they didn't have another Ray Rice situation on their hands. Instead they have an even worse situation on their hands because they have been proven to have lied and released false evidence to the public during this whole ordeal. This is the opposite of a cover-up. It's been an orchestrated uncovering by the NFL in an attempt to frame Brady for something they can't prove he did in order for the league to save face.

Sorry but, in my book, you're innocent until proven guilty and the NFL has failed to prove that Brady did anything wrong. At the same time, they have proven themselves to be liars that care more about PR than justice. They are the losers here (especially Goodell), but that's just my opinion.

 

[infantrycak]

Not just Dungy/Manning:

Earlier this week, former Colts coach Tony Dungy said thatPeyton Manning would refuse to discuss certain parts of the team’s strategy in the visiting locker room at Gillette Stadium because of fears that the Patriots wereeavesdropping on conversations through listening devices.

Manning and Dungy are gone from Indianapolis, but the team reportedly still shares the same concerns about what might be joining them in the locker room. Bob Kravitz of WTHR reports that the Colts still sweep the visiting locker room for bugs whenever they play at Gillette Stadium.

Link

 

[WolverineFan]

"As Kravitz notes, chances are that the Colts have never found anything as there’s never been any talk about finding a device or related investigation into something from a league that’s spent months and millions trying to punish the Patriots quarterback for allegedy being “generally aware” of a plot to under-inflate footballs.


In the video below, you can hear former Patriots safety Rodney Harrison’s response to Dungy’s story from earlier in the week. Harrison says the team had no inside information when it came to playing the Colts and points out that other teams have had success stopping Manning at home and on the road in the postseason.


If the Colts actually are spending time trying to see if their locker room is bugged, though, there would be some benefit to the Patriots because it is time spent thinking about something other than the game at hand. The results of the last meetings between the Pats and Colts suggest that’s not the best course of action for the 2014 AFC Finalists to be taking."

 

[infantrycak]

If the Colts actually are spending time trying to see if their locker room is bugged, though, there would be some benefit to the Patriots because it is time spent thinking about something other than the game at hand. "

This part is just stupid. Hiring some flunkie to come in and sweep isn't going to distract the team. It's not like Pagano or Luck is doing it.

 

[paycheck71]

This part is just stupid. Hiring some flunkie to come in and sweep isn't going to distract the team. It's not like Pagano or Luck is doing it.

That part to me was a typical Florio snark remark and made me look at who wrote the article (not Florio). But stuff like that makes me hate PFT.

 

[WolverineFan]

This part is just stupid. Hiring some flunkie to come in and sweep isn't going to distract the team. It's not like Pagano or Luck is doing it.

I agree. I posted that whole excerpt but could do without that last part. I think the first paragraph obviously has merit. I think its fair to say we definitely would have heard something about this before if it were true. I also think Harrison's response has merit as well. Considering Manning's playoff record, I guess everyone is bugging his locker room. Manning is the only QB in the top 15 for all-time playoff wins that has a losing record.

 

[Marshall]

It all reads a lot harsher to a layman than it does to an appeals lawyer I'm guessing.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/deflat...or-is-spot-on---defense-crows--192153861.html

"Nash returned to the CBA, which he says allows Goodell, as arbitrator, to make these calls."

If I read that right, I guess I'm on Nash's side of the argument. Look to the CBA, not inapplicable law governing federal arbitration.

 

[DocBar]

Here's an interesting article about an equipment guy altering footballs.

On the surface, free-agent kicker Jay Feely attended Monday’s settlement conference in his capacity as a member of the NFL Players Association’s Executive Committee. At a deeper level, Feely may have served a more important purpose in connection with the interests of Patriots quarterback Tom Brady.
As noted last month, the NFLPA’s initial court filing challenging the Brady suspension pointed out that the NFL suspended a Jets equipment employee in 2009, after an attempt “to use unapproved equipment to prep the K[icking] Balls” in a game against (you guessed it) the Patriots. The NFL did not investigate or discipline the Jets kicker for “general awareness” or specific involvement in the attempted violation of the rules, even though the Jets kicker was the player most likely to benefit from the behavior and, in turn, the player most likely to be aware of the conduct.
Coincidentally, the Jets kicker at the time was Jay Feely.
The incident wasn’t mentioned during Monday’s proceedings in open court. It’s possible that the incident was discussed behind closed doors with Judge Richard M. Berman, given the similarities between the two situations.
In Feely’s case, investigating or disciplining the player wasn’t even considered, even though Feely may have known all about the infraction. (And, if he did, he could have shared his knowledge of the situation directly with Judge Berman.) For Brady, simply being the guy who benefited from an equipment violation made him the focal point of an investigation that, by all appearances, was a prosecution.
It’ll be interesting to see whether Judge Berman mentioned the 2009 incident in his written ruling on the Brady case. On Monday, he happened to have in his chambers the man who occupied the same position as Brady does in the present controversy.

 

[Marshall]

Is there any evidence that Feely tried to obstruct the investigation? Was there any evidence that the unapproved equipment was used to intentionally violate the rules? There are lot's of reasons the cases may not be as similar as insinuated.

But the bottom line for the Judge is the case should not be retrying the facts, but whether the process agreed to in the CBA was followed and legally permissible. If those were followed, then the Commissioners ruling must be upheld, regardless of what the judge thinks about the facts or the process agreed upon, even if he thinks it was arbitrary and capricious. Of course that presumes the judge respects the law rather than makes up excuses to ignore it.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

McNair comments on Deflategate, says J.J. Watt wouldn't have destroyed phone

• Tania Ganguli, ESPN Staff Writer

HOUSTON -- Texans owner Bob McNair said J.J. Watt would not have destroyed his cell phone if he faced the same situation as New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady had with his dispute with the NFL over deflated footballs.

McNair made his comments Tuesday in an appearance on Texans radio on Houston's Sports Radio 610.

"If it was J.J. Watt, I think he would have been cooperative, and it wouldn't be a question. ... I don't think J.J. would destroy his cell phone."

"What escalated the whole thing is that Brady and the Patriots were going to cooperate fully, and then when it came down to it, they didn't," McNair said. "If it was J.J. Watt, I think he would have been cooperative, and it wouldn't be a question. ... I don't think J.J. would destroy his cell phone."

After an investigation the NFL determined Brady and two ball boys conspired to deflate footballs in their 45-7 win over the Indianapolis Colts. Brady was suspended four games, then appealed the suspension to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, who denied his appeal. He is now appealing the decision in federal court.

The radio hosts asked McNair on Tuesday if Watt would have been comfortable with his due process if faced with the same situation. The Texans host the Patriots on Dec. 13.

"Is there anything conclusive there? No, you don't have any conclusive evidence," McNair said. "But the whole idea is we want to make sure we have a competitive playing field that's level for everybody ... don't want people breaking the rules."

McNair added: "In the minds of somebody in that organization, they thought it was important. They thought it would give them a competitive advantage, and that's why they did it ... You just want to eliminate that kind of situation if you can."

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

PDS ‏@PatDStat 2h2 hours ago

and just like that the Texans become the Patriots #1 enemy.

 

[Marshall]

PDS ‏@PatDStat 2h2 hours ago

and just like that the Texans become the Patriots #1 enemy.

Not until we beat them when it counts.