Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍

2014 QB Class Not That Great

beerlover said:
now Texans have secured top pick we trying to talk them out of taking QB first overall because, "class is not that great"? remember it only takes one :bubbles:
Click to expand...

I cringe at his posts so much it's become admirable. I hope he keeps it up. It keeps me in awe. Steelbtexan is giving him a run for his money, though.
 
beerlover said:
now Texans have secured top pick we trying to talk them out of taking QB first overall because, "class is not that great"? remember it only takes one :bubbles:
Click to expand...

So what if you take the wrong "one" (see David Carr), and pass up on a perennial pro-bowler (see Julius Peppers)?

If you take a pick with #1, take a pick worth #1.
 
Corrosion said:
Yeah , without a QB you get to go watch that Peppers type play in a superbowl after he signs with a team who has a QB ....:lol:
Click to expand...

lol, true. And maybe he just doesn't do enough for the franchise and we never win a single playoff game with him on the field before he is released to free agency... Mario Williams.
 
http://secondroundstats.com/?page_id=632

More stats for the "Big 4" linked above, like...
  • YPC: Represents the number of air yards a pass traveled on completions. This subtracts yards gained after the catch.
  • 3rd Down %: Completion percentage on 3rd down
  • Red Zone %: Completion percentage in the red zone
  • Rollout %: Completion percentage when rolling out
  • Pressure %: Completion percentage when under pressure
  • Blitz %: Completion percentage against the blitz
  • Defensed %: Percentage of total attempts defensed/ intercepted by a DB or LB in coverage.
 
Playoffs said:
http://secondroundstats.com/?page_id=632

More stats for the "Big 4" linked above, like...
  • YPC: Represents the number of air yards a pass traveled on completions. This subtracts yards gained after the catch.
  • 3rd Down %: Completion percentage on 3rd down
  • Red Zone %: Completion percentage in the red zone
  • Rollout %: Completion percentage when rolling out
  • Pressure %: Completion percentage when under pressure
  • Blitz %: Completion percentage against the blitz
  • Defensed %: Percentage of total attempts defensed/ intercepted by a DB or LB in coverage.
Click to expand...

The more people dive into these stats, the more it becomes clear to me that it's a two-horse race between Bridgewater and Manziel.
 
Playoffs said:
http://secondroundstats.com/?page_id=632

More stats for the "Big 4" linked above, like...
  • YPC: Represents the number of air yards a pass traveled on completions. This subtracts yards gained after the catch.
  • 3rd Down %: Completion percentage on 3rd down
  • Red Zone %: Completion percentage in the red zone
  • Rollout %: Completion percentage when rolling out
  • Pressure %: Completion percentage when under pressure
  • Blitz %: Completion percentage against the blitz
  • Defensed %: Percentage of total attempts defensed/ intercepted by a DB or LB in coverage.
Click to expand...

WolverineFan said:
The more people dive into these stats, the more it becomes clear to me that it's a two-horse race between Bridgewater and Manziel.
Click to expand...

There is one stat not mentioned that I will divulge on Thursday.
 
bOODRO87 said:
Ratio of High Fives to Fist Bumps?
Click to expand...

Negative Ghost rider but I will pass this along, careful on interpreting the QB stats. Stats should favor Bridgewater, he has almost a one full season in number of starts compared to Manziel and Bortles. In addition the stats will also favor Bridgewater because of the level of competition faced. More on Thursday....
 
Texian said:
Negative Ghost rider but I will pass this along, careful on interpreting the QB stats. Stats should favor Bridgewater, he has almost a one full season in number of starts compared to Manziel and Bortles. In addition the stats will also favor Bridgewater because of the level of competition faced. More on Thursday....
Click to expand...

Okay, fair points. However....

Do the stats not also favor Bortles because of level of competition? I mean, they play in the same conference.

The stats also favor Carr and Manziel because of the offenses they play in. Bridgewater is the only one who plays in a pro-style offense.
 
WolverineFan said:
Okay, fair points. However....

Do the stats not also favor Bortles because of level of competition? I mean, they play in the same conference.

IMHO I find Ohio, Florida International and Missouri State to be stat inflators vs South Carolina, Penn St, Ohio St and Missouri who are not as much. Manziel plays in the SEC.

The stats also favor Carr and Manziel because of the offenses they play in. Bridgewater is the only one who plays in a pro-style offense.
Click to expand...

IMHO I think some folks are making to much of the offensive styles. They all take most snaps in shotgun, they all are fairly balanced. And while everyone is always very quick to say Bridgewater plays in Pro-Style Offense he also had 45 more passing attempts (427) than Bortles (382) and almost the exact same passing attemtps as Manziel (429).

Bridgewater also had the opportunity to play with the #1 Defense. This put him in the position of not having to play from behind very often, better field position, positive time of possession, all conducive to helping produce more positive offensive stats. Imagine Johnny Manziel with that #1 Defense.
 
Last edited:
Texian said:
IMHO I find Ohio, Florida International and Missouri State to be stat inflators vs South Carolina, Penn St, Ohio St and Missouri who are not as much. Manziel plays in the SEC.
Click to expand...

I was talking about the fact that you always talk about Bridgewater's level of competition, but never Bortles'. We all know Manziel plays in the SEC. I wasn't talking about his level of competition. There should be no doubt that UCF has played much better out of conference competition than Louisville has, but that doesn't mean that Bortles should be absolved of the level of competition argument. It's not like he blew it up in those games.

In the 5 games against Ohio State, Missouri, Penn State, South Carolina, and Baylor; Bortles threw 12 TD's with 8 INT's and 1 fumble.

In the 3 games against North Carolina, Florida, and Miami; Bridgewater threw 8 TD's and 1 INT.

Bortles has definitely been exposed to more high level competition, but he didn't play as well as Bridgewater did in those situations so I fail to see how his 'level of competition' tag is lifted while Bridgewater's is only enforced. They performed about the same in conference play, but against superior competition Bridgewater was better.


Texian said:
IMHO I think some folks are making to much of the offensive styles. They all take most snaps in shotgun, they all are fairly balanced. And while everyone is always very quick to say Bridgewater plays in Pro-Style Offense he also had 45 more passing attempts (427) than Bortles (382) and almost the exact same passing attemtps as Manziel (429).

Bridgewater also had the opportunity to play with the #1 Defense. This put him in the position of not having to play from behind very often, better field position, positive time of possession, all conducive to helping produce more positive offensive stats. Imagine Johnny Manziel with that #1 Defense.
Click to expand...

Bridgewater probably takes about half of his snaps from under center, Manziel takes 99% of his from shotgun. Louisville runs a balanced offense. A&M runs a somewhat balanced offense, but Manziel is the leading rusher. It's a one-man show. And Bridgewater throwing the ball as much as Manziel has no impact on what offense they run. At the end of the day, Bridgewater played in a pro style offense for 3 years and Manziel played in a passing spread for 2. It doesn't matter what the numbers say, that is still a fact.

Also, if Manziel had the #1 defense behind him his stats would look nowhere near as good because his team would be leading instead of trailing all the time. And, despite playing with a good defense, Bridgewater has still proven he can come from behind and win a game. It shouldn't count against him that he has a good defense because he has proven he can win games without one.
 
WolverineFan said:
I was talking about the fact that you always talk about Bridgewater's level of competition, but never Bortles'. We all know Manziel plays in the SEC. I wasn't talking about his level of competition. There should be no doubt that UCF has played much better out of conference competition than Louisville has, but that doesn't mean that Bortles should be absolved of the level of competition argument. It's not like he blew it up in those games.

In the 5 games against Ohio State, Missouri, Penn State, South Carolina, and Baylor; Bortles threw 12 TD's with 8 INT's and 1 fumble.

In the 3 games against North Carolina, Florida, and Miami; Bridgewater threw 8 TD's and 1 INT.

Bortles has definitely been exposed to more high level competition, but he didn't play as well as Bridgewater did in those situations so I fail to see how his 'level of competition' tag is lifted while Bridgewater's is only enforced. They performed about the same in conference play, but against superior competition Bridgewater was better.




Bridgewater probably takes about half of his snaps from under center, Manziel takes 99% of his from shotgun. Louisville runs a balanced offense. A&M runs a somewhat balanced offense, but Manziel is the leading rusher. It's a one-man show. And Bridgewater throwing the ball as much as Manziel has no impact on what offense they run. At the end of the day, Bridgewater played in a pro style offense for 3 years and Manziel played in a passing spread for 2. It doesn't matter what the numbers say, that is still a fact.

Also, if Manziel had the #1 defense behind him his stats would look nowhere near as good because his team would be leading instead of trailing all the time. And, despite playing with a good defense, Bridgewater has still proven he can come from behind and win a game. It shouldn't count against him that he has a good defense because he has proven he can win games without one.
Click to expand...

Let me make this as simple as can for you, I know it's difficult for a Teddy fanatic to understand. Out of conference games Teddy played some REAL PANSIES and as a result he was able to inflate his statistics because of it. More so than Bortles could playing out of conference foe's like Penn St and South Carolina. What part of this do you not understand? You can't make it any simpler. Good Grief!
 
James Palmer ‏@JPalmerCSN
Talking with a lot of #NFL people at #Senior Bowl, they all say it's too early to say who is the top QB (Manziel, Bridgewater, Bortles) #Texans
Click to expand...
 
Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock
1) Teddy Bridgewater 2) Blake Bortles 3) Derek Carr 4) Johnny Manziel

If I am giving just a generic ranking of the 4 QBs that I'm comfortable with my evaluation as of today, they would be as follow....

Like any other position, QB rankings will vary depending on the type of offense that the signal callers would play in.

Fresno State had Carr get off the ball quick in '13 & this makes it harder to tell how much he developed vs pressure.

Carr has such great arm strength that he relies on it heavy & this has led to his down field touch passes to be lacking.

He trusts his WRs & throws up a lot of "50/50" balls. Depending on a teams WR group, some GMs will see this as another risk.

Derek also locks in on timing routes & despite what the defense gives/takes away, he'll still throw the designed timing route.

Carr rolls out and throws back over the middle across his body. Despite multiple picks on these passes it's still an element of his game.

Carr has a bad case of "ego arm" too. It's when QBs w/ exceptional arm strength think the rules don't apply to them & go against the norm

While Carr stood in there more vs SD State in '13, he still had a hard time adjusting & his accuracy paid the price severely.

Dropping LBs/DL men still give him major issues. SD State in '13 took away some things from teams in 2012 by standing 6 & confusing him.

Carr has great pocket mobility & natural feet, but not a 6th sense too "feeling" pressure.

When Derek sets his feet, he delivers with heat & accuracy & fits the ball into almost any window.

Derek Carr has progressed in the face of pressure from recoil to not following thru or pulling away from target mid throw. Still an issue.

In 2011-12 Carr reminded me of Blaine Gabbert in the manner he recoiled from pressure. He also has bonehead moments similar to Jake Plummer

There are bits of Brett Favre in Carr's game...good & bad. He reminds me of Ryan Tannehill as far as anticipation on hitches & outs.

Let's talk some Derek Carr. I've given my assessment on Bridgewater, Bortles, & Manziel. Now it's time for Carr.
Click to expand...
 
One NFL scout told the Bengals' website that this year's top draft-eligible quarterbacks have "enough pros and cons" that they deserve to be selected around the 35th overall pick "if there wasn't such a need at the top of the draft."

In other words, the scout seemingly believes Teddy Bridgewater, Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel, and Derek Carr are all not elite franchise quarterback-type talents. We've seen it suggested previously that this year's QB class compares to 2011's, when Jake Locker (No. 8), Blaine Gabbert (10), and Christian Ponder (12) were all severely overdrafted. The Texans, Jaguars, Browns, and Raiders all need quarterbacks this year, and all draft in the top five. Feb 16 - 3:38 PM
Click to expand...
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9349/derek-carr
 
Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock
Sorry for the delay, I will finally release my Top 15 QB rankings here in the next few minutes. #NFLDraft

Top 15 QB Prospects - 2014 NFL Draft: 15) Logan Thomas 14) Tajh Boyd 13) David Fales 12) Stephen Morris 11) Keith Wenning 10) AJ McCarron

Top 15 QB Prospects- 2014 NFL Draft: 9) Jimmy Garoppollo 8) Aaron Murray 7) Connor Shaw 6) Johnny Manziel 5) Derek Carr 4) Zach Mettenberger

Top 15 QB Prospects - 2014 NFL Draft: 3) Blake Bortles 2) Teddy Bridgewater 1) Brett Smith
Click to expand...

The man has his own take -- gotta respect that. :tiphat:

His "Pop 4" notes: http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/
 
Playoffs said:
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9349/derek-carr
Click to expand...

I think this class is "better" than 2011,but not what you want to be looking at when you have the 1st overall pick. Unlike the 2011, the players here all have a good history of production (especially good overall completion percentages and TD/Int ratios). EVery prospect has a pretty obvious flaw, but in the end I think 2 or 3 of them will turn into average to pretty good starters, but won't true team carriers.
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
I think this class is "better" than 2011,but not what you want to be looking at when you have the 1st overall pick. Unlike the 2011, the players here all have a good history of production (especially good overall completion percentages and TD/Int ratios). EVery prospect has a pretty obvious flaw, but in the end I think 2 or 3 of them will turn into average to pretty good starters, but won't true team carriers.
Click to expand...

For the most part I agree. But you never know. You might get a H.O.F. in this draft, a GOAT. They've all got the talent. Several of them are smart enough. A couple of them already have the drive. It's going to depend on how they are developed, & how they allow themselves to develop after the draft.
 
Playoffs said:
Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock


The man has his own take -- gotta respect that. :tiphat:

His "Pop 4" notes: http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/
Click to expand...
...and the rest of the best:

AJ McCarron Breakdown

The 2014 NFL Draft season is upon us. As this lengthy process goes on, I’ll give you a quick rundown of the pros and cons of each prospect as seen through my eyes.

I’ve never been a fan of the blanket statement “all he does is win”. If that argument held water, McCarron would be the first overall pick. Here is my assessment on the former Alabama QB.

Pros:
AJ is comfortable going through his progressions and has the ability to see the whole field...

Cons:
I can’t recall one throw in which he impressed me by sticking the ball into an evaporating window....He has a subpar arm and fights to get it 50-55 yards downfield...
__________________________________________________________________

Brett Smith Breakdown

I head out to Wyoming for the next evaluation. Who said nothing good happens in Wyoming?

Pros:
Brett Smith... makes more NFL throws than all the other quarterback prospects combined. He completes passes that the others can’t or won’t...

Cons:
The big knock on Brett Smith will surround his undersized frame...

__________________________________________________________________


Zach Mettenberger Breakdown

Time to evaluate what sounds like a New York baseball fan’s afternoon activities (Mets and burgers). Zach Mettenberger now enters the hot seat.

Pros:
Zach has great size and a big arm that can make any throw that he’s asked to. He’s especially talented with throws outside the numbers with anticipation ...

Cons:
LSU is such a dominant defense and has a great power running game that I’m not sold on...

__________________________________________________________________


Aaron Murray Breakdown

This next QB evaluation takes a look at Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, a.k.a. Aaron Murray.

Pros:
When he’s not forced off the point and allowed to scan his reads in a timely manner, he throws with velocity, anticipation and accuracy...

Cons:
Mr. Hyde shows up on film when teams continuously put him under pressure...

__________________________________________________________________


Logan Thomas Breakdown

It’s time to go evaluate something called a Hokie. Logan Thomas enters the quarterback evaluation conversation, but I’m not sure that’s the right category for him.

Pros:
He’s obviously got a great frame...

Cons:
He’s easily the most inaccurate quarterback...

__________________________________________________________________

Tajh Boyd Breakdown

The next quarterback stepping up to the evaluation table is none other than Tajh Boyd. Clemson doesn’t have a great track record when it comes to NFL quarterbacks. Will Boyd be the exception?

Pros:
As a runner Tajh is very physical and deceptively quick...

Cons:
While Tajh doesn’t struggle with making the stick throws, dialing it back has been a concern. Boyd doesn’t show much touch, unless...

__________________________________________________________________

David Fales Breakdown

My quarterback adventure takes me to San Jose State. David Fales will attempt to prove skeptics wrong during this draft season.

Pros:
David Fales has shown a knack of completing passes to covered up receivers by...

Cons:
His throwing motion is less than desirable and at times he...

__________________________________________________________________

Jimmy Garoppolo Breakdown

The QB evaluations take us to Eastern Illinois, born and raised, on the playground is where Jimmy Garoppolo spent most of his days.

Pros:
Jimmy has one of the quickest releases I’ve seen. He could benefit from...

Cons:
Garoppolo has decent touch and accuracy, but he should have been better due...

__________________________________________________________________

Connor Shaw Breakdown

Let’s go to the Palmetto state to check out Connor Shaw. This under the radar signal caller deserves his moment in the spotlight.

Pros:
I was surprised initially by Connor’s arm strength and velocity...

Cons:
Some may wonder why I would compare Shaw more favorably to Russell Wilson than Johnny Manziel, but then rank Shaw behind...
 
thunderkyss said:
Manziel, Murray, Mettenberger, & McCarron all played in the SEC.

Do you factor in some kind of correction factor for that as compared to the AAC (Bridgewater & Bortles) or do you look compare those numbers straight up?
Click to expand...

Not for QB accuracy, no.
 
thunderkyss said:
Manziel, Murray, Mettenberger, & McCarron all played in the SEC.
Click to expand...

I really am tired of hearing this. The SEC placed 6 teams in the top 25 of total defense. They also placed 6 teams at 75th or worse. There are some great defenses in the SEC, but there are also some really bad ones and not every SEC QB faces only the great ones.

Numbers against Top 25 Defenses last year...

Manziel
- All (4) top 25 defenses faced were SEC.

64.3% comp
9.1 ypa
13 TD
7 INT


McCarron
- Faced (2) top 25 defenses from SEC. Also faced (1) ACC.

56.0% comp
6.4 ypa
6 TD
3 INT


Mettenberger
- Faced (3) top 25 defenses from SEC. Also faced (1) Big 12.

65.3% comp
9.7 ypa
4 TD
1 INT


Murray
- Faced (4) top 25 defenses from SEC. Also faced (1) from ACC and (1) from Sun Belt.

65.7% comp
10.1 ypa
12 TD
4 INT
 
thunderkyss said:
Manziel, Murray, Mettenberger, & McCarron all played in the SEC.

Do you factor in some kind of correction factor for that as compared to the AAC (Bridgewater & Bortles) or do you look compare those numbers straight up?
Click to expand...

Why would you? Do the normal laws of physics not apply in the SEC?
 
infantrycak said:
Why would you? Do the normal laws of physics not apply in the SEC?
Click to expand...

I don't like completion percentages as a measure of accuracy anyway. The guy on the other end has to catch the ball.

Still, If you're going to put the ball where only your guy can catch the ball, you might throw it half an inch higher in almost every case you'd want to throw it high... 3/4" wider in every case you might want to throw it wide... or you may be more apt to under throw the ball in more cases in a major conference than you would if you were playing in the AAC where very few players are likely to make the jump to the NFL.

It's still college, but I'm looking for HaHa Dix & adjusting my game because he's out there.

I understand that Louisville had the #1 defense...... but they didn't play in the Big12, Pac-12, ACC... & Bridgewater didn't have to play them (like Bortles did & beat them).

It's a lot easier to put the ball where you want when you don't have Jadaveon Clowney, Michael Sam, or Dee Ford (or even Marcus Smith) to worry about.
 
thunderkyss said:
I don't like completion percentages as a measure of accuracy anyway. The guy on the other end has to catch the ball.
Click to expand...

For me it's all in how you look at it. Take Derek Carr and his 600+ attempts, that tells me BUYER BEWARE. There are a lot of dinks (LOS) and dunks (< 5yds) in those 600+ attempts. Tends to inflate comp %. Also tells me maybe less accurate on attempts more than > 15 yds. vs a QB who has a more normal average of 350 attempts and comp % a better indicator of accuracy.
 
thunderkyss said:
I don't like completion percentages as a measure of accuracy anyway. The guy on the other end has to catch the ball.

Still, If you're going to put the ball where only your guy can catch the ball, you might throw it half an inch higher in almost every case you'd want to throw it high... 3/4" wider in every case you might want to throw it wide... or you may be more apt to under throw the ball in more cases in a major conference than you would if you were playing in the AAC where very few players are likely to make the jump to the NFL.

It's still college, but I'm looking for HaHa Dix & adjusting my game because he's out there.

I understand that Louisville had the #1 defense...... but they didn't play in the Big12, Pac-12, ACC... & Bridgewater didn't have to play them (like Bortles did & beat them).

It's a lot easier to put the ball where you want when you don't have Jadaveon Clowney, Michael Sam, or Dee Ford (or even Marcus Smith) to worry about.
Click to expand...

Your point is valid. But it's also a lot easier to complete a pass when you have Mike Evans running routes and Jake Matthews, Cedric Ogbuehi, Jarvis Harrison, and Mike Matthews blocking for you.
 
bah007 said:
Your point is valid. But it's also a lot easier to complete a pass when you have Mike Evans running routes and Jake Matthews, Cedric Ogbuehi, Jarvis Harrison, and Mike Matthews blocking for you.
Click to expand...

True. Which is why I wonder why a guy like Aj McCarron seemingly suffers more for being on a talented team than Manziel (I don't think Manziel should be drafted at 1-1 any more than Bridgewater. My whole contention from the beginning is that these guys are closer than some think (for different reasons) & none of them, imo, grade out as a top 10 (much less top 5) pick on their own. If we're saying this is a weak draft, I can see that, but looking at the other top 25 players that doesn't appear to be the case). A&M is much more talented in 2013 than Alabama, at least offensively. Alabama had a better defense than A&M (Manziel still skooled them) but not the #1 defense.

LSU was more talented, offensively, than Alabama & Mettenberger (with a torn knee) hasn't suffered as much as McCarron.

That might not have been the case in 2011, or 2012, but in 2013 A&M and LSU had more NFL talent on the offensive side of the ball than Alabama.
 
No-Huddle Series: David Fales, Developmental Gem?
by MATT WALDMAN

Can San Jose State quarterback David Fales develop more velocity on this throws like Drew Brees? Read on.

Eric Stoner at Draft Mecca is one of the first draftniks I know who watched David Fales and liked his game. I do, too. When I talked about what I saw in the 6-1, 22o-lb.starter at San Jose State to a scout I know, his response was that Fales has a “niche market” – and the scout includes himself in that group...
Click to expand...
 
Inside Slant: Shopping for (cheap) QBs
Jimmy Garoppolo
School: Eastern Illinois
Muench: "He's a hot name for good reason. There are some things he needs to work on, especially his footwork in the pocket. But he's got a lightning-quick release, enough arm strength and a pretty decent frame (6-foot-3, 223 pounds). If there weren't concerns about the level of competition, he could be a first-round guy. We have him as a third- or fourth-round guy, but a lot of people are excited about him."

AJ McCarron
School: Alabama
Muench: "If you're a team like Seattle, with a good defense and running game, and you need a guy to play well but maybe not elite, McCarron is probably the best example of that kind of player. You look at how many games he's won and how well he played in college. That speaks to something. The concern comes down to arm strength. He doesn't have the strongest arm. He will never be that vertical guy. But if you're looking for someone to play under those circumstances, to run your offense even if he is never an elite quarterback, I can see it for sure."

Logan Thomas
School: Virginia Tech
Muench: "He is a Kaepernick type in that he's very athletic and has a great arm. But in his case, there are questions about his accuracy, footwork and decision-making. I was at the Senior Bowl and the team sitting behind us was saying they would love to draft him and rebuild. You look at him and he's 6-5 1/2, he's 250 pounds and he has huge hands (10.6 inches), which is a big deal for quarterbacks. Teams with a good offensive system might want to take him and do what the 49ers did with Kaepernick. Use him as a backup for a year, year and a half, and then play him. He'll be the type who can make plays with his feet and be a powerful runner while he is learning the pro passing game."

Zach Mettenberger
School: LSU
Muench: "He tore his ACL [last fall] but mobility wasn't really an aspect of his game anyway. There are some who will say that his offensive coordinator, Cam Cameron, made things easy for him and that he had a great supporting cast there. But he is has an NFL brain, he's 6-5 and 240 pounds and he has maybe the strongest arm in this class. We have a third-round grade on him."

Those were the four candidates Muench gave me when we discussed this premise. I then asked about two other quarterbacks whom even casual college football observers would be aware of in this draft.

Aaron Murray
School: Georgia
Muench: [Like Mettenberger, Murray tore his ACL last fall.] "He's tough and accurate, but people are going to look at his size. He's not even 6-1 and he's 200 pounds with smaller hands. What it will come down to for him is that this injury and his frame makes durability a legitimate concern. Some people see the frame and say, 'Russell Wilson,' but Russell Wilson is a far better athlete. He's a fourth-round talent."

Tajh Boyd
School: Clemson
Muench: "You're looking at a successful college player, but the scheme he played in raises a lot of questions about his ability to transition. You watch tape and see him having a hard time with his progressions and you wonder how much practice he's had doing what he'll have to do in the NFL. What he ran at Clemson is a package in the NFL, not an offense. You have to make plays in the pocket in the NFL, and that's a huge problem for Boyd based on what we've seen. I could see him as a late-fifth-round guy."

These evaluations are all subject to change as we move through the combine and into pro days. But at this point, most NFL teams have a strong base evaluation of players. They're now moving into the period of confirming or denying those initial thoughts. And we're off ...
Click to expand...
 
thunderkyss said:
True. Which is why I wonder why a guy like Aj McCarron seemingly suffers more for being on a talented team than Manziel (I don't think Manziel should be drafted at 1-1 any more than Bridgewater. My whole contention from the beginning is that these guys are closer than some think (for different reasons) & none of them, imo, grade out as a top 10 (much less top 5) pick on their own. If we're saying this is a weak draft, I can see that, but looking at the other top 25 players that doesn't appear to be the case). A&M is much more talented in 2013 than Alabama, at least offensively. Alabama had a better defense than A&M (Manziel still skooled them) but not the #1 defense.

LSU was more talented, offensively, than Alabama & Mettenberger (with a torn knee) hasn't suffered as much as McCarron.

That might not have been the case in 2011, or 2012, but in 2013 A&M and LSU had more NFL talent on the offensive side of the ball than Alabama.
Click to expand...

Manziel won in spite of a crappy defense. McCarron couldn't win it all even with one of the most balanced teams in CFB. Even though McCarron won more, he contributed less to the wins his team got than Manziel did.

Here's the difference. Plug in Manziel behind Alabama's center and you have a national championship. Plug in McCarron behind A&M's center and you have 7 wins at best.
 
htownfan32 said:
Manziel won in spite of a crappy defense. McCarron couldn't win it all even with one of the most balanced teams in CFB. Even though McCarron won more, he contributed less to the wins his team got than Manziel did.

Here's the difference. Plug in Manziel behind Alabama's center and you have a national championship. Plug in McCarron behind A&M's center and you have 7 wins at best.
Click to expand...

First of all, had McCarron won the NC, again, he'd be the first QB to win back to back to back in the BCS era. You think maybe twice is enough?

Second, we don't know how McCarron would have done on A&Ms 2013 team. Just because he wasn't put in the position that Manziel was doesn't mean he wouldn't have excelled.

Third, McCarron did more for the 2013 Crimson Tide than he's getting credit for. There is definite improvement in his ability to lead that team from 2011 to 2012 then in 2013.

Fourth, the point is that A&M and Louisville are pretty damn talented as well.
Matthews, Evans, Manziel, & probably Amaro will all go in the first round. Only one Alabama offensive player will be considered in the first round, some are projecting him as an early 2nd.

And, Bridgewater had the #1 defense on his side & couldn't win the AAC Championship. Not once in his career.
​
 
thunderkyss said:
Fourth, the point is that A&M and Louisville are pretty damn talented as well.
Matthews, Evans, Manziel, & probably Amaro will all go in the first round. Only one Alabama offensive player will be considered in the first round, some are projecting him as an early 2nd.
​
Click to expand...

What does a Texas Tech player have to do with this...

Also Bama has 3 potential first round players; Kouandijo, Mosley, and Ha Ha. Also don't forget TJ Yeldon and Amari Cooper both currently project as high round players in the NFL.
 
thunderkyss said:
First of all, had McCarron won the NC, again, he'd be the first QB to win back to back to back in the BCS era. You think maybe twice is enough?

Second, we don't know how McCarron would have done on A&Ms 2013 team. Just because he wasn't put in the position that Manziel was doesn't mean he wouldn't have excelled.

Third, McCarron did more for the 2013 Crimson Tide than he's getting credit for. There is definite improvement in his ability to lead that team from 2011 to 2012 then in 2013.

Fourth, the point is that A&M and Louisville are pretty damn talented as well.
Matthews, Evans, Manziel, & probably Amaro will all go in the first round. Only one Alabama offensive player will be considered in the first round, some are projecting him as an early 2nd.

And, Bridgewater had the #1 defense on his side & couldn't win the AAC Championship. Not once in his career.
​
Click to expand...

Regarding point one - while it is great that' he's won 2 championships, that doesn't negate the argument that the rest of the team with him was strong, too. Look at the guys Bama has put out in the past few years. Mark Barron, Eddie Lacy, Courtney Upshaw... Bama is a great TEAM, all round.

Bama won a championship with McElroy too, remember?

Regarding point two - fair enough. However, you're going to have to point out a game where McCarron really and truly put his team on his back, without the help of his running backs and his defense, and carried them to a victory. I think 90% of people would say that McCarron could not do for A&M what Manziel did. It's not about offensive firepower either. I don't think McCarron could overcome that crappy A&M defense. Not many quarterbacks could.

Regarding your fourth point - please don't be disingenuous. The AAC has only been around for 1 year. Louisville under Bridgewater were Big East champions in 2011 and 2012. You're also missing the point talking about talent on the offensive side. Yes, Manziel had a great weapon in Mike Evans. He also had the one of the, if not the most, crappy defense in the FBS.
 
matts290 said:
What does a Texas Tech player have to do with this...
Click to expand...

I don't know why I keep thinking he played for A&M.

matts290 said:
Also Bama has 3 potential first round players; Kouandijo, Mosley, and Ha Ha.
Click to expand...

I specifically said offense. When referring to Manziel. I point out that Louisville had the #1 defense to offset 'bama's D.

matts290 said:
Also don't forget TJ Yeldon and Amari Cooper both currently project as high round players in the NFL.
Click to expand...

The point is that A&M is pretty talented in their own right. I'm not saying Alabama isn't. McCarron is taking his blows for it. Manziel isn't. Johnny's got more "wow" I'm not denying that. His play making ability seems second nature. But whether that can translate to the NFL is debatable....

Manziel's arm is no stronger than McCarron's. Aj has the size. His numbers are comparable. He played in a "pro-ish" offense, more pro than what Manziel played in. He takes care of the ball, he's smart. He's played on the biggest stages. He's athletic.... not Manziel athletic, but athletic.

Again, my point is not that Aj McCarron is all that, but that Manziel/Bridgewater aren't much better. McCarron is getting knocked for playing on a talented team. A&M is a talented team.
 
thunderkyss said:
I don't know why I keep thinking he played for A&M.



I specifically said offense. When referring to Manziel. I point out that Louisville had the #1 defense to offset 'bama's D.



The point is that A&M is pretty talented in their own right. I'm not saying Alabama isn't. McCarron is taking his blows for it. Manziel isn't. Johnny's got more "wow" I'm not denying that. His play making ability seems second nature. But whether that can translate to the NFL is debatable....

Manziel's arm is no stronger than McCarron's. Aj has the size. His numbers are comparable. He played in a "pro-ish" offense, more pro than what Manziel played in. He takes care of the ball, he's smart. He's played on the biggest stages. He's athletic.... not Manziel athletic, but athletic.

Again, my point is not that Aj McCarron is all that, but that Manziel/Bridgewater aren't much better. McCarron is getting knocked for playing on a talented team. A&M is a talented team.
Click to expand...

A&M is a talented offense. It's the worst defense of any major football program.
 
htownfan32 said:
Regarding point two - fair enough. However, you're going to have to point out a game where McCarron really and truly put his team on his back, without the help of his running backs and his defense, and carried them to a victory. I think 90% of people would say that McCarron could not do for A&M what Manziel did. It's not about offensive firepower either. I don't think McCarron could overcome that crappy A&M defense. Not many quarterbacks could.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see what Manziel could do without Mike Evans or Jake Matthews.

htownfan32 said:
Regarding your fourth point - please don't be disingenuous. The AAC has only been around for 1 year.
Click to expand...

True.
 
thunderkyss said:
I don't know why I keep thinking he played for A&M.
Click to expand...

It's best to at least give an appearance of knowing about college football when trying to argue about it.

thunderkyss said:
I specifically said offense. When referring to Manziel. I point out that Louisville had the #1 defense to offset 'bama's D.
Click to expand...

Does it matter though, the supposed knock on McCarron that you are referring is that people say he has played on a talented team...meaning offense, defense and special teams. In the overall makeup, Alabama has been the most talented team in football in the last 5 or 6 years, evident by their 3 championships, top recruiting class, and litter of talent in the NFL.

thunderkyss said:
The point is that A&M is pretty talented in their own right. I'm not saying Alabama isn't. McCarron is taking his blows for it. Manziel isn't. Johnny's got more "wow" I'm not denying that. His play making ability seems second nature. But whether that can translate to the NFL is debatable....
Click to expand...

A&M is talented, yes, as are most of the the teams in the SEC...but as an overall team they are not on the same talent level as Alabama, that is just indisputable.

Manziel isn't getting blows for it because his claim to fame isn't "he wins", as it is with McCarron. Still, plenty of people talk about Manziel's stacked offensive line and throwing jump balls up to Evans...have you seriously not read these knocks on him, its been mentioned plenty.

thunderkyss said:
Manziel's arm is no stronger than McCarron's.
Click to expand...
Ok now you are going full blown homer mode. McCarron has an incredibly underwhelming arm, anyone that has watched him will tell you that. Sure Manziel doesn't have a rocket, but his ability to make throws downfield and on outs is much better than McCarron's

If you truly believe this you are beyond lost...

thunderkyss said:
Aj has the size. His numbers are comparable. He played in a "pro-ish" offense, more pro than what Manziel played in. He takes care of the ball, he's smart. He's played on the biggest stages. He's athletic.... not Manziel athletic, but athletic.
Click to expand...

His numbers are comparable? HA! What is your definition of comparable?
3,063 total yards, 28 total TDs and & INTs vs 4913 total yards, 46 TDs and 11 INTs. In what crazy world do you live in where those numbers are comparable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top