Team depth

[badboy]

Have we arrived at a roster where we can realistically expect to see starters being cut annually? The loss of Mario did not sneak up on anybody as he had been off team for a year and most understood he would get at least one mega offer. However, Briesel and Winston seemed to stun most of us whether we eventually agreed or not. CB Allen a sometimes starter left also.

It is one thing to ponder a Domminique Barber not returning but a possibility exists that starters Schaub, Cody and Barwin may not be re-signed. Others like Caldwell, A Smith and Wade Smith could be gone in 2013, if not sooner. Pound your keyboard in anger response or not it is possible Duane Brown could be gone if he has another 2012 type year. Of course this would not be a Texans choice unless they like Butler or "Fig" Newton better than I think they do. Brandon Brookes left tackle in 2013?

Quality of our draftees have skyrocketed and new coaching on defense has seemingly improved Kareem Jackson (like him or not his play has improved) and word is McCain's much better play has kept Brandon Harris (a 2nd round selection after a trade up) basically on the bench. Carmichael is getting talk about being an possible #2 CB.

Cheap free agent Brady James ends up replacing starting vet Demeco Ryans and newly signed for basically peanuts Alan Ball is a possibility at sending some long term CB home to mama. Is it possible these two could be better (dollar for dollar) acquisitions than Manning and Joseph? Not saying better players just bang for the buck.

I'd really prefer not to hear about your favorite player 'cause you wear his jersey or have "adopted" him but come with some facts or at least some opinions based on productivity or salary cost issues in your comments. If you agree this is good or disagree say why.

 

[Vinnie]

Dude, salary cap didn't favor us. I think Rick Smith did what he could within parameters. We'll see.

 

[badboy]

Dude, salary cap didn't favor us. I think Rick Smith did what he could within parameters. We'll see.

I think you totally misunderstood my thread and as no one else posted others may have also. Mea Culpa.

My point is has our team gotten so strong that we can replace long term starters yearly and replace with draft picks & occasional cheap free agents. The NFL elite teams seem to do this. Have we moved into that echelon? I'd like to move a 2nd year vet or maybe even a very good draft pick into a starter's role. Reduces player age & wear and tear making team even better.

This is NOT a blast at GM or coaches. Just the ooposite in fact.

 

[ObsiWan]

You should have prefaced your original post with this...

Smith said he's studied NFL history at length, and he's studied business models of different business leaders. One that he's adopted is former GE boss Jack Welch's 20-70-10 philosophy: the top 20 percent of your employees are standouts and must be nurtured. The majority, the 70 percent, are the working class -- needed but still able to move if the right situation arises. The lowest 10 percent have to be churned and replaced, because a company always is looking for ways to get better by importing new blood. "If you have a 53-man roster, maybe you've got 10 or 11 core players,'' Smith said, "and then 25 to 30 roles players, and then you're always looking to churn the bottom of the roster.''

Our "twenty percenters" are...
1. Foster
2. Duane Brown
3. A.J.
4. Schaub
5. J. Joseph
6. Watt
7. Myers8. Cushing
Edit: since Smith went with 10-11, I added a couple more
9. Wade Smith (I'm betting his replacement is being groomed right now)
10. D. Manning (although we did okay when he was hurt)
11. Owen Daniels (if a second WR emerges from this new bunch, we may see fewer two TE sets and O.D. may become expendable - pass catching, not blocking, is his strong suit)

Everyone else is a role player, a "project", or on his way out

Unless Mercilus and Crick turn out to be duds, Antonio Smith might be allowed to walk when his contract is up unless he takes a pay cut.

Schaub may not get a huge payday when his contract comes due if Yates or Beck become proficient in this system.

Like I said in the Rick Smith thread, Cushing may end up wearing a different jersey if he wants a mega payday like Mario got because I'm not sure Wade needs Cushing's caliber of stud to play ILB in his system. Sure he'll want him - who wouldn't? But, like Mario, I don't think they'll want to pay him that kind of dough. It's the same reason that DeMeco was "over-priced" for this system. Wade spends his bucks on pass rushers - DEs and OLBs. And CBs. Any defensive scheme can use stud CBs.

 

[Perki-Perk]

You should have prefaced your original post with this...


Our "twenty percenters" are...
1. Foster
2. Duane Brown
3. A.J.
4. Schaub
5. J. Joseph
6. Watt
7. Myers8. Cushing
Edit: since Smith went with 10-11, I added a couple more
9. Wade Smith (I'm betting his replacement is being groomed right now)
10. D. Manning (although we did okay when he was hurt)
11. Owen Daniels (if a second WR emerges from this new bunch, we may see fewer two TE sets and O.D. may become expendable - pass catching, not blocking, is his strong suit)

Everyone else is a role player, a "project", or on his way out

Unless Mercilus and Crick turn out to be duds, Antonio Smith might be allowed to walk when his contract is up unless he takes a pay cut.

Schaub may not get a huge payday when his contract comes due if Yates or Beck become proficient in this system.

Like I said in the Rick Smith thread, Cushing may end up wearing a different jersey if he wants a mega payday like Mario got because I'm not sure Wade needs Cushing's caliber of stud to play ILB in his system. Sure he'll want him - who wouldn't? But, like Mario, I don't think they'll want to pay him that kind of dough. It's the same reason that DeMeco was "over-priced" for this system. Wade spends his bucks on pass rushers - DEs and OLBs. And CBs. Any defensive scheme can use stud CBs.

I agree with you and OP. We must start preparing for the revolving door of players that's common on good teams. We got so comfortable hanging on to busts for so long, we thought for sure we'd keep the really good players longer. Well, the problem with busts, is a bad contract is hard to trade, guaranteed money just don't go away and you only get 7 picks each year in the crapshoot that is the draft to try and make up for it. The problem with good players, is they're expensive. It's good to see that our front office has gotten better and better.

I think we've come a long way. I think we have assembles a machine with good working parts. From Smith to Kubiak to Phillips, all the way down to the 53rd guy on the bench. The fans have almost always brought their "A" game in Houston...well in football anyway. Now, if we could not be a perennial playoff loser like the Oilers, and have none of those 93 Bills or 91 Bengals repeats, that would be super.

It's all about health this year, We were a healthy Shaub away from the AFC championship and possibly the Super Bowl, and I don't even like the guy that much (as far as him being our QB goes). We weren't a Mario Williams away from that. D. Ryans, while a very good dude who will be miss, was normally not part of the 3rd and 4th down stops. I think we will forget about Brisiel and that other guy shortly...lol, already forgot one of them. We are heading in the right direction. I was calling for Kubes head at the end of the 2010 season, but he got over himself, and Lil Bum was brought in and look what we got.

Here's to 2012 and a 2013 Super Bowl berth. Come on Preseason!

 

[Playoffs]

Have we arrived at a roster where we can realistically expect to see starters being cut annually?

Not across all positions. WR/CB still thin. TE now thin. We're getting there, though.

 

[badboy]

Not across all positions. WR/CB still thin. TE now thin. We're getting there, though.

Definitely agree. However, McCain stepped up big last season (coaching) & Carmichael has great size so he and Ball could eliminate corner as a weak area. I am hopeful KJ can take another step up. Receivers on the other hand...? Martin will equal if not surpass JJ and much cheaper. Jean and Posier? please, please, please.

 

[TdotTexas2Step]

Cheap free agent James Brady ends up replacing starting vet Demeco Ryans and newly signed for basically peanuts Alan Ball is a possibility at sending some long term CB home to mama. Is it possible these two could be better (dollar for dollar) acquisitions than Manning and Joseph? Not saying better players just bang for the buck.

We found the new Kevin Walters!

 

[Ryan]

We found the new Kevin Walters!

He's certainly no Daniel Owens.

 

[badboy]

We found the new Kevin Walters!

Fixed it, thanks

 

[TdotTexas2Step]

On the topic of changeover. Which side of the ball does it negatively impact more?

 

[ObsiWan]

On the topic of changeover. Which side of the ball does it negatively impact more?

Need more data; i.e., we won't really know until the banging starts in August. But on paper, the O-line seems to have more "uncertainties" than the defense does. The defensive fill-ins either showed promise last year or are Wade-guys from his (Wade's) past jobs so he knows what he's getting.

Next is WR. As everyone knows, there's NO experience past A.J. and K.W. Three days of OTA was too much for one of them (wuss!) and who knows who else will bite the dust when they start getting popped by the big boys in preseason.

So the short answer to the "which side of the ball" question, IMHO, is the offense. Of course, K-Mart or Posey could blossom into O-RotY candidates...
And wouldn't that be sweet!

 

[Texanmike02]

Like I said in the Rick Smith thread, Cushing may end up wearing a different jersey if he wants a mega payday like Mario got because I'm not sure Wade needs Cushing's caliber of stud to play ILB in his system. Sure he'll want him - who wouldn't? But, like Mario, I don't think they'll want to pay him that kind of dough. It's the same reason that DeMeco was "over-priced" for this system. Wade spends his bucks on pass rushers - DEs and OLBs. And CBs. Any defensive scheme can use stud CBs.

The problem is that Cushing is the best of both Mario and Ryans. He is a physical phreak and an incredible effort player. Cushing is one of the few guys that absolutely must stay. You can let Mario go because (and this is not really a knock) he's not a 110% guy. He's not giving you 110% every play. You can let Ryans go because he's not a 95%er. He's not more physically gifted than 95% of the people at his position.

Cushing is both. That is why he must stay.

Mike

 

[Perki-Perk]

The problem is that Cushing is the best of both Mario and Ryans. He is a physical phreak and an incredible effort player. Cushing is one of the few guys that absolutely must stay. You can let Mario go because (and this is not really a knock) he's not a 110% guy. He's not giving you 110% every play. You can let Ryans go because he's not a 95%er. He's not more physically gifted than 95% of the people at his position.

Cushing is both. That is why he must stay.

Mike

Well stated.

 

[badboy]

The problem is that Cushing is the best of both Mario and Ryans. He is a physical phreak and an incredible effort player. Cushing is one of the few guys that absolutely must stay. You can let Mario go because (and this is not really a knock) he's not a 110% guy. He's not giving you 110% every play. You can let Ryans go because he's not a 95%er. He's not more physically gifted than 95% of the people at his position.

Cushing is both. That is why he must stay.

Mike

Show me how we do this and keep Barwin, Brown and Schaub. If Mercilus and Yates do as well as I think they will, they can replace 2 of these and we can re-sign Cushing late season 2012 & not have that hanging over us in Cush's last season 2013. Or, I guess another approach is to allow Cushing to hang until 2012 off season and hope we can cut or renegotiate enough to take care of him.

 

[ObsiWan]

The problem is that Cushing is the best of both Mario and Ryans. He is a physical phreak and an incredible effort player. Cushing is one of the few guys that absolutely must stay. You can let Mario go because (and this is not really a knock) he's not a 110% guy. He's not giving you 110% every play. You can let Ryans go because he's not a 95%er. He's not more physically gifted than 95% of the people at his position.

Cushing is both. That is why he must stay.

Mike

I don't disagree with your assessment of Cushing. In fact I called him a "stud" in my post.

But he can't hold up forever.
My point is that when his contract is up in two years, we may have already seen the best he can give.
What happens two years from now when his contract is up and the knee (knees?) that keeps swelling up in T/C every year slows him half a step. So when the season starts, he can't quite cover any more. And he's the two-down ILB (assuming Wade's still here running the D)

Look, he'll always be a 110% effort guy but one day that body won't do what his mind commands. You want to keep him until that happens or would you rather see Smithiak do the New England thing and trade him in the last year of his contract ...while he still has value?

 

[badboy]

I don't disagree with your assessment of Cushing. In fact I called him a "stud" in my post.

But he can't hold up forever.
My point is that when his contract is up in two years, we may have already seen the best he can give.
What happens two years from now when his contract is up and the knee (knees?) that keeps swelling up in T/C every year slows him half a step. So when the season starts, he can't quite cover any more. And he's the two-down ILB (assuming Wade's still here running the D)

Look, he'll always be a 110% effort guy but one day that body won't do what his mind commands. You want to keep him until that happens or would you rather see Smithiak do the New England thing and trade him in the last year of his contract ...while he still has value?

This is my concern same with AJ, we need to be traiing replacements for when that day occurs and this is to take nothing away from either.

 

[Wolf6151]

My point is has our team gotten so strong that we can replace long term starters yearly and replace with draft picks & occasional cheap free agents. The NFL elite teams seem to do this. Have we moved into that echelon? I'd like to move a 2nd year vet or maybe even a very good draft pick into a starter's role. Reduces player age & wear and tear making team even better.

This is NOT a blast at GM or coaches. Just the ooposite in fact.

No I don't think we're at that point yet, but are getting close. We did it this off season out of necessity to the salary cap, which tells me we've got some overpaid/under performing players on the roster. Due to salary cap reasons I think next off season could be even bloodier with cuts of veteran players. I think with a major cutting offseason next year and at least 1 more really good draft like in 2011 we'll be there. We've still got some significant depth holes on the roster at a few positions and need to develop some talent at those spots. I think we're doing a good job of creating that depth on the O-line, D-line, RB's, LB's, QB's and secondary, but still have a ways to go at WR and TE. When was the last time we developed any young talent at WR or TE? Also we've only made the playoffs once, we're not in that upper echelon of teams yet, but we're getting close.

 

[welsh texan]

Agree with a lot of the points made here, its very true that we can't realistically expect to keep them all, and when you have tough decisions to make, they will always hurt in the short term. Its all about grooming the replacements and being active in the lower end of FA.

The one thing to point out though is, we've made a lot of tough decisions right now in anticipation of an effectively tightening cap, while the majority of other teams seem to be spending as normal. Maybe, just maybe, we end up ahead of the curve and won't struggle as much as the rest of them in a year or two??

I've seen a lot of record contracts being handed out, but the cap is remaining level while the majority of contracts increase year on year, surely that spells trouble for a number of teams. Wouldn't like to be Detroit if CJ gets injured, or the Bills if Mario goes down, for instance.

 

[badboy]

No I don't think we're at that point yet, but are getting close. We did it this off season out of necessity to the salary cap, which tells me we've got some overpaid/under performing players on the roster. Due to salary cap reasons I think next off season could be even bloodier with cuts of veteran players. I think with a major cutting offseason next year and at least 1 more really good draft like in 2011 we'll be there. We've still got some significant depth holes on the roster at a few positions and need to develop some talent at those spots. I think we're doing a good job of creating that depth on the O-line, D-line, RB's, LB's, QB's and secondary, but still have a ways to go at WR and TE. When was the last time we developed any young talent at WR or TE? Also we've only made the playoffs once, we're not in that upper echelon of teams yet, but we're getting close.

Agreed. I also think we might see more trades in future of lower picks combine for one higher pick. A 3rd, 4th and 5th maybe for a late second.

 

[badboy]

Agree with a lot of the points made here, its very true that we can't realistically expect to keep them all, and when you have tough decisions to make, they will always hurt in the short term. Its all about grooming the replacements and being active in the lower end of FA.

The one thing to point out though is, we've made a lot of tough decisions right now in anticipation of an effectively tightening cap, while the majority of other teams seem to be spending as normal. Maybe, just maybe, we end up ahead of the curve and won't struggle as much as the rest of them in a year or two??

I've seen a lot of record contracts being handed out, but the cap is remaining level while the majority of contracts increase year on year, surely that spells trouble for a number of teams. Wouldn't like to be Detroit if CJ gets injured, or the Bills if Mario goes down, for instance.

We may always have the Mario type deal with one team over paying for one player but the days of Philly for example over paying for several may be thing of the past. Remember two teams were penalized for over spending in 2010. Dallas being one.