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Complaining About NT Play

gary

gary

Hall of Fame
I see it going on in a few threads and also noticed it myself how the Jets ran through the middle last night and Mitchell just was not quite up to par. So if he does not prove to be a legit starting NT then I see the Texans signing a free agent like Kevin Williams who is still unsigned. Or maybe another guy who does not make another roster due to there being an overload of good players I don't know. This thread is not meant to be negative just an honest discussion about what happens if Wade does not think Earl is ready to start by game number one like he thought he was going to be. We'll see. What do you think?
 
a) cody got most of the first team reps thats i watched
b) both did ok imo
c) nobody will be added
d) you're mixing up kevin & pat williams

btw not trying to be a dick or anything with the bullet pts. just my brief thoughts
 
Maddict5 said:
a) cody got most of the first team reps thats i watched
b) both did ok imo
c) nobody will be added
d) you're mixing up kevin & pat williams

btw not trying to be a dick or anything with the bullet pts. just my brief thoughts
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I have seen him called Kevin and Pat so go figure. Anyway N.Y. still ran a little too well for my liking when no mistakes were made by N.Y. JMO.
 
Maddict5 said:
a) cody got most of the first team reps thats i watched
b) both did ok imo
c) nobody will be added
d) you're mixing up kevin & pat williams

btw not trying to be a dick or anything with the bullet pts. just my brief thoughts
Click to expand...

A) who cares who got reps first
B) ok ain't gonna cut it
C) how do you know

If teams can run up the middle on you, you ain't goin far in this league
 
I just think a veteran like Williams should be brought into start or someone else. Remember Cody wasn't ever great even in a 43 let alone in all new scheme. Mitchell has hardly played in the NFL to begin with.
 
I was impressed enough with the defense to trust Phillips on NT for now..the LBs also have to close down the middle. But this is a priority area of concern. I wanted to see improvement with our corners also but did not see much.
 
badboy said:
I was impressed enough with the defense to trust Phillips on NT for now..the LBs also have to close down the middle. But this is a priority area of concern. I wanted to see improvement with our corners also but did not see much.
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I disagree just a tad about our corner play.

Although there were still some blown coverages, some cushions, some route jumping, there was also better position and more clogged throwing lanes. The receivers didn't seem to be running through the secondary like little girls running through the park picking wildflowers for their hair.

AND, that was with pretty much the same secondary we had last year.

I'm not feeling bad about the secondary, yet. Let's see what the Saints do to it.
 
gary said:
Yup. I know they are.
Click to expand...

So which one do you want? Kevin Williams is not a free agent. Pat Williams is almost 40 years old

I agree that our NT situation is less than ideal, but I'm not sure there are players available that would crack our starting lineup right now. And signing guys just to make changes hasn't worked well for us in the past. I'm in the wait and see mode at the moment. I think our runs up the middle were more the result of confused LBs than poor DT play, but thats just my opinion
 
gtexan02 said:
So which one do you want? Kevin Williams is not a free agent. Pat Williams is almost 40 years old

I agree that our NT situation is less than ideal, but I'm not sure there are players available that would crack our starting lineup right now. And signing guys just to make changes hasn't worked well for us in the past. I'm in the wait and see mode at the moment. I think our runs up the middle were more the result of confused LBs than poor DT play, but thats just my opinion
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I'll take Pat and I know how old he is but he still got the job done last year with the Vikings. He does not have to start but he'd be better backup than Cody even at 39 IMO.
 
gtexan02 said:
So which one do you want? Kevin Williams is not a free agent. Pat Williams is almost 40 years old

I agree that our NT situation is less than ideal, but I'm not sure there are players available that would crack our starting lineup right now. And signing guys just to make changes hasn't worked well for us in the past. I'm in the wait and see mode at the moment. I think our runs up the middle were more the result of confused LBs than poor DT play, but thats just my opinion
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406c57ba8662971bf804d864d13ac3f8.jpg


Because of the Texans' decision to go without a fat boy in the middle, I hope the epitaph on this season doesn't read:

WE WENT FOR BROKE.......AND WE WENT BROKE........
 
They need someone to be the fat guy in the middle and I am not sure Earl or Shawn will cut it but hopefully they will.
 
badboy said:
I was impressed enough with the defense to trust Phillips on NT for now..the LBs also have to close down the middle. But this is a priority area of concern. I wanted to see improvement with our corners also but did not see much.
Click to expand...

I didn't have an issue with the play of the NTs either except on the one Mitchell was doubled & rolled over. Other than that, most of their runs were off tackle..... totally different problem.

I can see people thinking it's a NT problem, but it's not.
 
gary said:
That's not great.
Click to expand...

OTOH, it's a new defense in the first game of the pre-season.

So while it's not something to be happy about, even if we had shut the Jets down totally, so what? It's pre-season. Until the real season starts, we're all just looking at individual plays and players totally out of context and trying to find things that support our positions to be happy or sad. So what you find to be happy or sad about isn't really anything except an indication of how you felt to begin with. :kitten:

We're both worried about the middle of that front 7. We've both been worried about the middle of that front 7. Two runs up the gut in the first pre-season game is no reason to change how we feel one way or another.
 
We will see I saw some great things overall from the team but all I am doing is pointing out some areas where there is room for an improvement and DT is one of them IMO.
 
gary said:
We will see I saw some great things overall from the team but all I am doing is pointing out some areas where there is room for an improvement and DT is one of them IMO.
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I'm just saying that we're beating a dead horse at this point. Until we get more information, it is what it is.

You, me, CnD -- We've all talked about how worried we are about the interior of this line. Now, let's sit back and see what we see. These next two games will tell us a lot more but still won't tell us the whole story.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
I'm just saying that we're beating a dead horse at this point. Until we get more information, it is what it is.

You, me, CnD -- We've all talked about how worried we are about the interior of this line. Now, let's sit back and see what we see. These next two games will tell us a lot more but still won't tell us the whole story.
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I agree. That is why I said sign someone if the line play does not improve by the last preseason game but for all I know Earl just might end up being a Pro bowler but he just needs some more work right now.
 
Wade plays his NT in a one gap situation. Which means that one of the ILBs have to cover the other gap, and the other guard. So some of that stuff wasn't even the responcibility of the NT. He desires quicknes over big & slow.
 
NBT said:
Wade plays his NT in a one gap situation. Which means that one of the ILBs have to cover the other gap, and the other guard. So some of that stuff wasn't even the responcibility of the NT. He desires quicknes over big & slow.
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It doesn't matter how wade plays the nt, if the guy is getting handled and the guards are getting to the lbs, thas a problems. Wade isn't theonly 1 gap 3-4, nolan plays it like that also. Its a matter of penetrating and sitting in the hole or making the stop, not getting blew off the line. In the nfl, most line play is stalemate. In fact, they were playing with backups. Imagine if that was mangold or a player of that ilk.
 
HOU-TEX said:
I like Earl
Click to expand...

I think Earl can get it done, but he is going to have to improve his technique and develop some tricks down there when teams run right at him and double him up.

Pass plays and stretch plays he is going to be money though.
 
Rey said:
I think Earl can get it done, but he is going to have to improve his technique and develop some tricks down there when teams run right at him and double him up.

Pass plays and stretch plays he is going to be money though.
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Earl was a FB in High School
Earl was a FB in College
Earl got switched to DT while @arizona
Earl has steadily improved after only 2 years at DT.
Earl has no switched to NT..

We can hope that he can make the transition and pick up his game at hte same time, he has his work cut out for him. He's a big man that's has some definite agility.
 
silvrhand said:
Earl was a FB in High School
Earl was a FB in College
Earl got switched to DT while @arizona
Earl has steadily improved after only 2 years at DT.
Earl has no switched to NT..

We can hope that he can make the transition and pick up his game at hte same time, he has his work cut out for him. He's a big man that's has some definite agility.
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In his 1st 2 years at Arizona, he played more as TE than FB. I remember posting about him back then. He indeed was considered to be agile, the knock going into the draft was "Plays stouter than his frame would indicate due to good use of leverage and leg drive, but is never going to be a true run-stuffer." At least, so far that's what we're seeing
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
In his 1st 2 years at Arizona, he played more as TE than FB. I remember posting about him back then. He indeed was considered to be agile, the knock going into the draft was "Plays stouter than his frame would indicate due to good use of leverage and leg drive, but is never going to be a true run-stuffer." At least, so far that's what we're seeing
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Agreed, which is why I liked him as a draft pick last year vs. this yar, but I think it's too early to judge anyone on the switch to 3-4, heck even Mario looked really bad on run plays.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
In his 1st 2 years at Arizona, he played more as TE than FB. I remember posting about him back then. He indeed was considered to be agile, the knock going into the draft was "Plays stouter than his frame would indicate due to good use of leverage and leg drive, but is never going to be a true run-stuffer." At least, so far that's what we're seeing
Click to expand...

He played as a TE in highschool too.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
I'm just saying that we're beating a dead horse at this point. Until we get more information, it is what it is.

You, me, CnD -- We've all talked about how worried we are about the interior of this line. Now, let's sit back and see what we see. These next two games will tell us a lot more but still won't tell us the whole story.
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This^^^^ We're talking about one preseason game, where the Jets played without Mangold and two tackles. Lets see how it all plays over the next couple of games.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
OTOH, it's a new defense in the first game of the pre-season.

So while it's not something to be happy about, even if we had shut the Jets down totally, so what? It's pre-season. Until the real season starts, we're all just looking at individual plays and players totally out of context and trying to find things that support our positions to be happy or sad. So what you find to be happy or sad about isn't really anything except an indication of how you felt to begin with. :kitten:

We're both worried about the middle of that front 7. We've both been worried about the middle of that front 7. Two runs up the gut in the first pre-season game is no reason to change how we feel one way or another.
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I think you can look at one play and make observations and learn things. Doesn't mean that a final determination has to be made forever.

And I don't look for things to support my opinion. I thought/think Earl will be able to handle nt. But against the jets, without mangold, he struggled with runs directly at him.

He can make adjustments and correct things by time the season starts, but what we saw wasn't an illusion.
 
Rey said:
I think you can look at one play and make observations and learn things. Doesn't mean that a final determination has to be made forever.

And I don't look for things to support my opinion. I thought/think Earl will be able to handle nt. But against the jets, without mangold, he struggled with runs directly at him.

He can make adjustments and correct things by time the season starts, but what we saw wasn't an illusion.
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The bolded part wasn't directed at you. Ever since the beginning, I've voiced my doubts about Cody and Earl being able to handle the nose despite Wade's assurances. And that supporting our own opinion part was directed at Gary, CnD, and me.

But ultimately, the sample size of the first pre-season game in a new defense is just too small to accurately make a reasonable assessment. There are too many variables and there are a lot of things that they may not have put in.

Even the best defense occasionally has a bad series or a bad quarter even. Even the best defense will occasionally get burned or be out of position or miss some tackles and sometimes it will be a whole string of plays like that.

So, yeah, we can look at those handful of plays and say "Wow. That didn't look good. We've got to get that fixed." The truth is that those plays may have just been some sort of anomaly and it's already fixed.

We need to see more before we can really make a determination. And WE, the fans, may not have all the facts to make that determination until a few weeks into the season.
 
I said it a while back and I'll say it again.

With Mitchell @ 291 lbs and Smith playing DE at 274 lbs the Texans are going to have problems against the run. Unless they drop a S in the box. Which will hurt in the pass game. Just like the last 5 yrs. Maybe Lewis can be the answer, I'm staying optimystic at this point and hoping I'm wrong.
 
It's a legitimate concern, the NT play, that is.
However, as I've tried to reiterate many times, the NT in Wade's system hardly play differently than from last year under Bush.

It wasn't great last year, but it wasn't bad either; and Mitchell showed some flashes, especially as the season went along.

I also want to come back to the long run by Green and disagree with Leebig and Rey once more.
To me, a player (Dobbins) who failed to fulfill his assignment (flowing to WS A gap) is always most at fault (unless the NT completely butcher the play, which wasnst the case.

Compare that with the 5yd run by SG for the first down when Cody was in at NT shows my point: When the MIKE flows to the WS A gap, the Center was "forced" to come off the double team/combo block quicker. That makes the job of the NT easier (as it's supposed to be).

The Jets called the same running play.

Note - I'm discounting the cut-back run at the moment.

Here's the 5yd run:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/PS%201%20Jets/First%20Qtr/12%20min%2023/

And here's the 19yd run again:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/PS%201%20Jets/SG%2019yd%20run/
 
76Texan said:
It's a legitimate concern, the NT play, that is.
However, as I've tried to reiterate many times, the NT in Wade's system hardly play differently than from last year under Bush.

It wasn't great last year, but it wasn't bad either; and Mitchell showed some flashes, especially as the season went along.

I also want to come back to the long run by Green and disagree with Leebig and Rey once more.
To me, a player (Dobbins) who failed to fulfill his assignment (flowing to WS A gap) is always most at fault (unless the NT completely butcher the play, which wasnst the case.

Compare that with the 5yd run by SG for the first down when Cody was in at NT shows my point: When the MIKE flows to the WS A gap, the Center was "forced" to come off the double team/combo block quicker. That makes the job of the NT easier (as it's supposed to be).

The Jets called the same running play.

Note - I'm discounting the cut-back run at the moment.

Here's the 5yd run:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/PS%201%20Jets/First%20Qtr/12%20min%2023/

And here's the 19yd run again:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/PS%201%20Jets/SG%2019yd%20run/
Click to expand...

I can't believe you don't see the breach in gap integrity by mitchell. If mitchell holds his gap, that a 2 or 3 yd gain vs a 17 yd run. Even in wades 1 gap, penetration forces the fb to help the guard or the play is dead. Because mitchell was blown backwards and the combo block turned into a washdown, demeco was wiped by th fb and there goes 20 yds.if that's cj,mjd,charles or any other bak with explosion, that's 40 or a td. Against the saints, the texans will face the best guard combo in the game with nix and evans. To make matters worse, brees and the passing game will have some matchups if jackson is playing. We will get a really good look at the front vs the saints.
 
76Texan said:
It's a legitimate concern, the NT play, that is.
However, as I've tried to reiterate many times, the NT in Wade's system hardly play differently than from last year under Bush.

It wasn't great last year, but it wasn't bad either; and Mitchell showed some flashes, especially as the season went along.

I also want to come back to the long run by Green and disagree with Leebig and Rey once more.
To me, a player (Dobbins) who failed to fulfill his assignment (flowing to WS A gap) is always most at fault (unless the NT completely butcher the play, which wasnst the case.

Compare that with the 5yd run by SG for the first down when Cody was in at NT shows my point: When the MIKE flows to the WS A gap, the Center was "forced" to come off the double team/combo block quicker. That makes the job of the NT easier (as it's supposed to be).

The Jets called the same running play.

Note - I'm discounting the cut-back run at the moment.

Here's the 5yd run:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/PS 1 Jets/First Qtr/12 min 23/

And here's the 19yd run again:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/PS 1 Jets/SG 19yd run/
Click to expand...

76 you are wrong as can be.

The lb's aren't there to make the nt's job easier. They are there to be the playmakers. And while the d line may be doing some of the same things that they did last year, their alignment is different. As much as I like Earl, we will lose every game if he is consistently pushed back into the lb's.

You cannot always expect the lb to flow fast that way because you don't know what they are keying. They could stunt, they could be on a spy, there could be misdirection.

Not sure why you latch on to these players and try to explain away all of their faults, but I think it's fairly obvious that Mitchell can't get blown off the ball like that.
 
Rey said:
76 you are wrong as can be.

The lb's aren't there to make the nt's job easier. They are there to be the playmakers. And while the d line may be doing some of the same things that they did last year, their alignment is different. As much as I like Earl, we will lose every game if he is consistently pushed back into the lb's.

You cannot always expect the lb to flow fast that way because you don't know what they are keying. They could stunt, they could be on a spy, there could be misdirection.

Not sure why you latch on to these players and try to explain away all of their faults, but I think it's fairly obvious that Mitchell can't get blown off the ball like that.
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In your own system, you can want your NT to be whatever you like.

To me, all the responsibilties were spelled out very clearly in Wade's playbook.The NT is responsible for the A gap on run to either side.
Sure, Mitchell wasn't able to control the A gap, and that was his negative.

The MIKE (Dobbins) was to flow to the SS A gap. He didn't.
That's failing to carry out his assignment.
That's bad!

In a one-gap scheme like this, each player is responsible for his gap.
And if one guy fails to get there, it's the biggest blunder he can make.

A guy can be weak in his gap (like Mitchell) and the play can still be contained to a certain degree.
The breach was the WS A gap.
And that was Dobbins'.

Mitchell was secondary.

The responsibilities for the other players were also spelled out very clearly.
For example, the SDE (Smith) was to squeeze the B gap then chase.
And the SOLB (Barwin) was responsible for the cut back run.

This is Wade's system, not yours or Leebig's.
 
leebigeztx said:
I can't believe you don't see the breach in gap integrity by mitchell. If mitchell holds his gap, that a 2 or 3 yd gain vs a 17 yd run. Even in wades 1 gap, penetration forces the fb to help the guard or the play is dead. Because mitchell was blown backwards and the combo block turned into a washdown, demeco was wiped by th fb and there goes 20 yds.if that's cj,mjd,charles or any other bak with explosion, that's 40 or a td. Against the saints, the texans will face the best guard combo in the game with nix and evans. To make matters worse, brees and the passing game will have some matchups if jackson is playing. We will get a really good look at the front vs the saints.
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Go back andlook at the screen shots gain.
The SS A gap is inside the hashmarks.
Mitchell never lost the A gap.
He may have lost a yard or two in depth, but he gained a half to a yard in horizontal spacing (even against the double team).

Dobbins needed to be outside the hashmarks (in the WS A gap.)
He never got there.

The cutback was not his primary responsibilty.
It was for Smith to squeeze the B gap (and he did) and for Barwin to make the play (since the TE released). If the TE doesn't release then it would be up to Quin to fill the gap.

Dobbins cannot worry about the cutback until he had fulfilled his primary assignment.
This is a one-gap system!!!
 
76Texan said:
In your own system, you can want your NT to be whatever you like.

To me, all the responsibilties were spelled out very clearly in Wade's playbook.The NT is responsible for the A gap on run to either side.
Sure, Mitchell wasn't able to control the A gap, and that was his negative.

The MIKE (Dobbins) was to flow to the SS A gap. He didn't.
That's failing to carry out his assignment.
That's bad!

In a one-gap scheme like this, each player is responsible for his gap.
And if one guy fails to get there, it's the biggest blunder he can make.

A guy can be weak in his gap (like Mitchell) and the play can still be contained to a certain degree.
The breach was the WS A gap.
And that was Dobbins'.

Mitchell was secondary.

The responsibilities for the other players were also spelled out very clearly.
For example, the SDE (Smith) was to squeeze the B gap then chase.
And the SOLB (Barwin) was responsible for the cut back run.

This is Wade's system, not yours or Leebig's.
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If Mitchell isn't pushed back into him he probably gets to his gap a lot quicker. Even if dobbins got there mitchell is still allowing a lane to be created.

Dobbins needs to be an athlete and make a play there, no doubt. But Mitchell getting blow back into the lbs was absolutely the root cause.

Honestly I don't see how you can say anything different. Mitchell is the first line of defense on that play. You have no idea what was called and i think youre making up your own narration. For all you know dobbins may have been man up on the te. That may be why he went right first before he saw it was run. The one thing we do know, however, is that no matter what is called or what defense is being played the dt should not be driven into a lb's place. Dobbins probably should have come over and made the play, but it would have been a lot easier without his own dt in his lap. This'll probably be my last post on this or the Kareem Jackson stuff because I just completely disagree and I dont see any middle ground on this.

No disrespect at all. Just don't Agree.
 
Rey said:
If Mitchell isn't pushed back into him he probably gets to his gap a lot quicker. Even if dobbins got there mitchell is still allowing a lane to be created.

Dobbins needs to be an athlete and make a play there, no doubt. But Mitchell getting blow back into the lbs was absolutely the root cause.

Honestly I don't see how you can say anything different. Mitchell is the first line of defense on that play. You have no idea what was called and i think youre making up your own narration. For all you know dobbins may have been man up on the te. That may be why he went right first before he saw it was run. He probably shoukd have come over and made the play, but it would have been a lot easier without his own dt in his lap. This'll probably be my last post on this or the Kareem Jackson stuff because I just completely disagree and I dont see any middle ground on this.

No disrespect at all. Just don't Agree.
Click to expand...
Let's take this back a few steps.

What is your POV on a one-gap scheme.
What does it really mean to you?
 
vlcsnap-1334881.jpg


vlcsnap-1334885.jpg


Above picture, RB receives the ball.
At this point, WDE Smith started to squeeze the strong side B gap (working to push the LT) toward the strong side A gap.
TE released, so SOLB Barwin took control of the cut back run.
At this point, the MIKE Dobbins needed to flow to the weak side A gap, if not already.


vlcsnap-1334890.jpg

At this point, Dobbins needed to be in the weak side A gap (outside the hashmarks) and he wasn't.
 
The next five frames show that if Dobbins had taken care of his gap, the runner would not have much room to run.
The cut back lane was taken away by Barwin and Smith.
This should have been a 4-5 yd run, thereabout.

vlcsnap-1334894.jpg


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vlcsnap-1334903.jpg


vlcsnap-1334908.jpg


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