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Are the 2012 Texans better than the 2011 Texans?

G

gafftop

All Pro
Obviously a hypothetical question but would you rather be starting this season with the team we have NOW or the team we had at the start of last year. Or put another way do you think we got better this year?
 
*checking calender*
You mean the 2012 vs 2011 Texans, right?

The 2011 squad had more talent. But, I think this year's squad, with playoff experience under their belt, have a good chance at achieving more. Will Schaub and AJ make it to the playoffs healthy? That will be the difference.
 
gafftop said:
Obviously a hypothetical question but would you rather be starting this season with the team we have NOW or the team we had at the start of last year. Or put another way do you think we got better this year?
Click to expand...

Do i think we got better ? In certain phases yes.

RB - Yes we added Forsett

WR - Yes We have Jean Healthy, Martin and Posey

everywhere else we took a step back, besides QB and D-line.

Secondary, J. Allen did good things for us and he was replaced by ball. We kept Shilo over Nolan. We Lost Dressen and have Graham. We lost Winston and Brisel and now have "whoever and whoever".

I think this team has taken a step backwards TBH. BUT with that said i still think this team has superbowl potential
 
Texan_Touchdown said:
I think were better on offense but on defense not so much.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking the opposite. With the O line taking a step backwards in talent and the defense with a years' experience in Wade's system and a full training camp under their belt will be even better than last year. With Holliday making such a splash the special teams will most certainly be better.

So I guess I'll say (on paper at least) this is a better team than last year.
 
Texan_Touchdown said:
I think were better on offense but on defense not so much.
Click to expand...


I also think exactly the opposite. Holliday and the defense will bailing the offense out all season long. The O line, already suspect, will be decimated by injuries.

We might back door our way into the playoffs, but that's about it.

And dust off all those "Fire Kubiak" threads. They're gonna come in handy. :)
 
Last year players stepped up to the challenge, if that happens again good things will happen.

Tough question, I'm hoping for 'yes' :)
 
I have not felt so good about a Houston team since the original Phillips was here. Pray for a healthy season and we can win it all. This team has improved this year mainly from just experience and learning the game more, I think that offset our loses in personal.
 
All I know is 2013 is going to hurt. source spotrac
2013 Houston Texans Free Agent Tracker
Alan Ball CB UFA
Connor Barwin DE UFA
John Beck QB UFA
Rashad Butler T UFA
Antoine Caldwell G UFA
James Casey TE UFA
Shaun Cody DT UFA
Tim Dobbins LB UFA
Justin Forsett RB UFA
Keyaron Fox LB UFA
Andrew Gardner T RFA
Shayne Graham K UFA
Ra'Shon Harris DT RFA
Trindon Holliday KR RFA
Juaquin Iglesias WR RFA
Bradie James LB UFA
Tim Jamison DT UFA
Donnie Jones P UFA
Mitch King DT RFA
Brice McCain CB UFA
Jesse Nading DE UFA
Troy Nolan S UFA
Moran Norris RB UFA
Glover Quin CB UFA
Matt Schaub QB UFA
Cody Wallace C UFA
 
srrono said:
All I know is 2013 is going to hurt.
Click to expand...
How is that different from any other NFL team? Players come up for contract every year. 8 are starters, but some of those could be upgraded. I don't see it as a big deal.
 
srrono said:
All I know is 2013 is going to hurt. source spotrac
2013 Houston Texans Free Agent Tracker
Alan Ball CB UFA
Connor Barwin DE UFA
John Beck QB UFA
Rashad Butler T UFA
Antoine Caldwell G UFA
James Casey TE UFA
Shaun Cody DT UFA
Tim Dobbins LB UFA
Justin Forsett RB UFA
Keyaron Fox LB UFA
Andrew Gardner T RFA
Shayne Graham K UFA
Ra'Shon Harris DT RFA
Trindon Holliday KR RFA
Juaquin Iglesias WR RFA
Bradie James LB UFA
Tim Jamison DT UFA
Donnie Jones P UFA
Mitch King DT RFA
Brice McCain CB UFA
Jesse Nading DE UFA
Troy Nolan S UFA
Moran Norris RB UFA
Glover Quin CB UFA
Matt Schaub QB UFA
Cody Wallace C UFA
Click to expand...

Schaub, Quin, Barwin, Caldwell are the big ones. With a few notable exceptions, most of those guys aren't really guys you worry about keeping too much (or are already gone).
 
b0ng said:
Schaub, Quin, Barwin, Caldwell are the big ones. With a few notable exceptions, most of those guys aren't really guys you worry about keeping too much (or are already gone).
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Caldwell isn't even a lock to keep his job through the entire season. The decisions on Schaub and Barwin are the keys.
 
they'll lose a few good ones, and then pick up someone else's UFAs. The thing of it is, the Texans are now a good team and fit for playoff runs for several more years.

If Kubiak and Smith keep up the good work, they could keep this going for a long while. There are teams that do, like Pittsburg and New England. I guess my point is, I don't think we have to worry about crappy 5 or less win seasons for a long time.

It could be worse, and yall know it, because we are only a season or two removed from the trash heap of the NFL.
 
Lucky said:
Caldwell isn't even a lock to keep his job through the entire season. The decisions on Schaub and Barwin are the keys.
Click to expand...

Add in the fact that he has Mario Williams Syndrome (always nicked up) and you have a vet minimum price tag. He will probably be retained next year, but only if he can beat out Brooks and Ben Jomes for the job.
 
Thinking last year to this year, the OL freaks me out. I think we might have some better weapons on offense but will we get a chance to use them with the current blocking?

I also recall Wade's second year swoon syndrome posts and wonder if the D is going to take a step backwards.

So, no, I think our team is worse. Still good enough to PWN our division but not booking time off for the superbowl quite yet.
 
Lucky said:
*checking calender*
You mean the 2012 vs 2011 Texans, right?

The 2011 squad had more talent. But, I think this year's squad, with playoff experience under their belt, have a good chance at achieving more. Will Schaub and AJ make it to the playoffs healthy? That will be the difference.
Click to expand...

I dont know Lucky .... Lets evaluate the roster by position.


QB - I think is slightly better with the seasoning of Yates and Beck is an upgrade over Lienart. The key here is Schaubs health.

RB - I think is a push between Ward and Forsett. But we're talking about the third guy behind the best RB combo in the league.

WR - I think this years group is considerably better especially the depth. Jacoby Jones , David Anderson , Bryant Johnson and Derrick Mason out - In with Martin , Jean and Posey. Its debatable tho since none of those kids has made an NFL reception but every one of them has shown to have playmaking capabilities that last years group didnt (outside of Jones).

TE - OD , Dreesen , Casey or OD , Graham , Casey ? A lot depends on Graham ... he looked good against the Aints. I'll go with Dreesen until proven otherwise , advantage 2011

FB - Casey and Vickers Vs Casey and Tyler Clutts - I dont know much about Clutts .... But Vickers wasnt very good , cost the team W game with a crutial drop. Call it a push here too ?

OL - Last years OL was better without a doubt tho pass protection could be better. We'll give this to the 2011 squad.


DL - Smith , Cody , Watt .... same starting trio and Watt should improve since he was a rookie last year. Crick , Jamison and Mitchell as depth. Call it even ?

ILB - Cushing & Ryans Vs Cushing and Bradie James , on paper it seems like Cush and Ryans are the better combo but Ryans was a real liability in coverage. I think James is sligtly better in coverage and Ryans a bit better against the run. Dobbins was last years backup as well tho Sharpton is injured (again). Slight edge to 2011 just to be fair.


OLB - Here's the interesting position with MW gone. He was playing well before the injury but Brooks Reed came in and didnt miss a beat. The defense finished #2 overall. MW clearly has more talent but for the second year in a row lands on IR. MW had 5 sacks thru 5 games , Reed had 6 the next 11. Advantage 2011

CB - Not much change here other than Jason Allen leaving and we've had a Brandon Harris sighting. KJ wont be in a platoon situation this season. McMains didnt play much outside of ST. Dont know how to call this one but KJ has looked better. Call it even.


Safety - Exchange Nolan for Keo. I think Nolan's the better safety but Keo's the better ST player. We're talking about the 4th safety. Who makes a greater impact ?? Probably a push.



KR/PR - Jacoby was explosive but an accident waiting to happen making boneheaded decisions and carrying the ball like he was doing the funky chicken. He also ran backwards a lot on PR's .... which I couldnt stand.

Tricycle is even more explosive IMO and doesnt really make the bad decisions. He has put a couple on the ground tho , the kickoff fumble I think the defender made the play popping the ball out while Tricycle was stiffarming a defender He does have to cover it up better in traffic. On the muffed punt .... I give Tricycle full responsibility , he also had the sense to get it out of bounds.

I have to give the advantage here to the current squad.

Punter / Holder - Hartmann has a hell of a leg. I hated to see him released and really wondered how they would handle the situation once his suspension ended. Dude would lay the wood in coverage too ....
Also handled some KO duties last season but would occasionally line drive one short .... otherwise they were out of the endzone.
Jones doesnt have the leg that Hartmann does but he has been solid and has saved at least two bad snaps on FG/PAT's. Thats a real importnt aspect of his job description.
This one's a tough call. I demand a recount.


Kicker - Rackers was solid last year but didnt have the leg to hit the long ones. Kubiak on more than one occasion punted rather than send him out to attempt a 50+ yarder.
Graham was brought in not to win the job but to push Bullock - He won the job hands down IMO. The only complaint I have is depth on kickoffs.
Both veterans with playoff experience - I call this one even too.


Your assessment is probably correct .... but I think its at least debatable. They do have the tools to make a deep run but a whole lot depends upon health at key positions , especially Schaub's. Everything else being equal , a healthy Schaub this team is much better. The scarry thing is the right side of the OL keeping Schaub upright.
 
If you gauge it by who & how many want our castoffs I guess we're getting better...

Patriots -- OL Thomas Austin
Eagles -- OL Nate Menkins
Dolphins -- DB Troy Nolan
Buccaneers -- OL Cody Wallace
 
I think we've gotten worse in some areas and better in others.

If Matt stays healthy that's a huge check mark in the 'better' column. O line looks weaker. Wr's look better to me. Db's should be a bit improved.

D line should be better.

Lb corps is worse without Demeco from what I've seen. Mario is a minus, but he doesn't really count as he didn't play a majority of the season anyways.

If trindon lives up to the hype that could be huge for us.

I think we could be better, but the record not reflect it. Really tough question to answer at this point though.
 
If the 2011 squad was a legitimate Superbowl contender barring injuries, even a slight downgrade still makes Houston a threat.
 
This is a good question. Talent wise, we definitely took a step back. We lost 3 starters and replaced them with backups. But we are still a superbowl contending team.
 
dream_team said:
This is a good question. Talent wise, we definitely took a step back. We lost 3 starters and replaced them with backups. But we are still a superbowl contending team.
Click to expand...

Just curious, but what 3 starters did we lose and replace with back ups?
 
Two big ifs, but if Schaub can stay healthy the entire season (playoffs included obviously), and Dre is healthy for 12 or more RS games, and all playoff games, then I'm saying yes, we're better.

I'm uncomfortable with what we've seen from Yates in preseason, but it's still ony preseason. I'm less concerned with the line than most appear to be. We lost our backup swing tackle last season too, and it was the same guy we lost this season. I'm not saying the line as a whole will be as good - especially not right away, but I just think Newton will grow into the position nicely, and while Caldwell might not be the long-term answer at RG, he's good enough to keep the line as a whole from being a problem. Bottom line is I have enough faith in Dennison and Benton to think any shortcomings with the line can be effectively managed.

As with most of us, I have been unimpressed with Bradie James, and I do think there's a drop-off at that position. I just don't think that position is one of the more important one's in Wade's defense. I also think that as good as they were last year, Watt, Reed, and even Barwin should all show improvement. I think it's overlooked that while Barwin is going into his fourth year, he completely (well, almost completely) missed one of them, and going into last season, he'd started the exact same number of games that Watt and Reed had. While Kareem may never live up to his first round billing, he got better last year, and I think there will also be some improvement this year. Finally, I think a regular off-season, and another training camp under Wade's tutelage will prove be a good thing.

Still, I think we can analyze and over-analyze all we want, but how good we are this season, and how it will end up comparing to 2011 is more dependent on the health of Matt and Andre than anything else.
 
The team playing against the 'Phins a week from today IS NOT as talented as the team that started the 2011 season against the Colts.
 
I think this will be a good team...but it's not roll over everyone good and I while I don't think we are as talented as we were last year, I think we may be healthier and more experienced...so that ought to take up some slack.

I think it will be very important to win the home field advantage, but I'm not sure this team is going to be that good. I think we'll miss Ryans more than most think, the secondary isn't near as good as people think, and the offensive line is a work in progress, so I think we have a punchers chance. I've been a little bit of an ambivalent NFL fan this offseason but the last few weeks have me ready to watch the league and our team again.
 
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Ever hear of the phrase "adversity builds character?"

What we went through last season was simply amazing. We kept getting hurt, over and over again, one thing after another, one player out, another player out, and what did we do? We kept jumping back up and moving forward, punching fools in the mouth.

Then, we used that to get into the playoffs for the first time. As Lucky said upthread, playoff experience counts. For a lot.

Yes, we lost some talent this offseason, but, we gained a really, hardcore shell.

The season hasn't started yet, but, based on the (supposed) growth with learning from adversity, I'll take the 2012 Texans over the 2011 Texans, Alex.
 
I will tell a story to prove my point.

the 2004 St. Louis Cardinals had one heck of a team. It seemed like from literally every position, they had a player who could hit the ball deep. On top of that, most of the players at their position were some of the best. It showed too, because they had the best record in baseball that year. They made it to the world series that year, but lost. Over the offseason, they lost a couple of their big hitters and were not as good coming on to the field the next season. In 2006, basically with the same team they had in 05, they won the world series. Sort of the same deal with the Astros. The 2004 team, on paper, was much better than the 2005 team. They could actually hit the ball, and had good players at their position. However, as all of us know, the 2005 team went further than the 2004 team and even the 1998 team.

What my point is, is that sometimes a team can be really good on paper, but not win it all in the end. The effect it has on that team though, no matter how many people they lose (unless if it was the whole team) makes them hungry for more and give that team chemistry. If you were to ask me, I would tell you that the 2004 Astros and Cardinals were better than their respective 2005 and 2006 squad. However, the 2005 Astros and the 2006 Cardinals are the teams that brought home championships.

After all of that, I agree the 2011 Texans are better on paper than this current team. However, I feel the 2012 Texans will go further and hopefully bring home the Lombardi, even though the 2011 team was better.
 
ChampionTexan said:
I'm guessing he'd already counted Mario out of the mix, and the third was DeMeco.
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Demeco was replaced by a FA not a backup from last year tho ....

Either way , there's not been much turnover on this team - only four starters differing from last years squad on both sides of the ball , three of which have been replaced by players on last years team. I think that says a lot about the depth that 2011 squad had and their performance after guy's got injured showed that too.
 
Playoffs said:
If you gauge it by who & how many want our castoffs I guess we're getting better...

Patriots -- OL Thomas Austin
Eagles -- OL Nate Menkins
Dolphins -- DB Troy Nolan
Buccaneers -- OL Cody Wallace
Click to expand...

Rams -- OL Shelley Smith

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
Four teams - St. Louis, Washington, Seattle, Tennessee - put in waiver claims for former Texans G Shelley Smith, who was awarded to Rams.
 
Playoffs said:
Rams -- OL Shelley Smith

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
Four teams - St. Louis, Washington, Seattle, Tennessee - put in waiver claims for former Texans G Shelley Smith, who was awarded to Rams.
Click to expand...

That's kind of a mindblower right there. We're going into the season with a suspect O line, yet we waive 4 O linemen and they are all picked up.

idonno:
 
Marcus said:
That's kind of a mindblower right there. We're going into the season with a suspect O line, yet we waive 4 O linemen and they are all picked up.

idonno:
Click to expand...

They all wanted to learn our offense from him? No?

Maybe we're not as bad off on the O-Line as we think we are?
 
The texans have a well coached team.

I thought about that watching them play last game. It was the special teams. They looked extremely disciplined in their kick coverage. Breaking down, staying in their lanes even when it was tempting to break off.

One thing about special teams that I've just observed--you can have a really good st coordinator and really good talent on those st, but when those st are consistently disciplined that comes from the head coach and the overall leadership of the team.

Even if you believe this team is overall less talented (I don't), when a team cares enough to remained disciplined in their techniques and committed to the pursuit of perfection, special things can happen.

Watching these guys on special teams is just one small clue to how this team feels about this season. Jmo, but the vibe I get from these guys is that they are hungry, committed, and have a level of determination to where they are he'll bent on success. Combine that with the talent we have and you get fireworks.

I'm feeling really good about this season. Will we win the ship? I don't know, buy I think this will be our best effort to do so yet.
 
Playoffs said:
Rams -- OL Shelley Smith

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
Four teams - St. Louis, Washington, Seattle, Tennessee - put in waiver claims for former Texans G Shelley Smith, who was awarded to Rams.
Click to expand...

I'm still baffled by his release. Frankly, I still can't figure out why he was not in competition for the starting RG position.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Maybe we're not as bad off on the O-Line as we think we are?
Click to expand...

You know, the more I've seen from newt the more I like him. He has a lit of things he needs to clean up technique wise but his physical ability is top notch. The guy is strong, big, good feet and at athletic.

I expect him to have some WTF moments out there no doubt. But I also expect him to have his fair share of moments where he looks great.
 
dalemurphy said:
I'm still baffled by his release. Frankly, I still can't figure out why he was not in competition for the starting RG position.
Click to expand...

It came down to numbers , keeping 3 QB's and 6 WR's .... you arent able to keep 9-10 OL.

I was really hoping he would pass waivers and go back to the PS so he could replace Wade Smith next season.
 
Rey said:
You know, the more I've seen from newt the more I like him. He has a lit of things he needs to clean up technique wise but his physical ability is top notch. The guy is strong, big, good feet and at athletic.

I expect him to have some WTF moments out there no doubt. But I also expect him to have his fair share of moments where he looks great.
Click to expand...

I've been kind of a Newt fan for a while. Even his holding penalty where he took the guy and flipped him heels over head and slammed him into the ground... I'm not totally sure that was a hold.

He hasn't been as consistent as I'd like but I'm expecting kinda great things from him this season. Maybe even better than Winston.

I think our RG spot will eventually be better than Brisiel (although maybe not until the end of the season) as Brooks OR Jones develops -- I've actually got high hopes for Jones, too.

If you take that with the fact that I think that our WR corps has improved, not just a little bit but a WHOLE lot... I think we could be a better team overall than we were last year. I really do.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
I've been kind of a Newt fan for a while. Even his holding penalty where he took the guy and flipped him heels over head and slammed him into the ground... I'm not totally sure that was a hold.

He hasn't been as consistent as I'd like but I'm expecting kinda great things from him this season. Maybe even better than Winston.

I think our RG spot will eventually be better than Brisiel (although maybe not until the end of the season) as Brooks OR Jones develops -- I've actually got high hopes for Jones, too.

If you take that with the fact that I think that our WR corps has improved, not just a little bit but a WHOLE lot... I think we could be a better team overall than we were last year. I really do.
Click to expand...

At least he didnt let him get anywhere near his QB. If you are gonna hold .... dont get your QB hit in the process .... and if you are gonna get beat , hold and keep your QB's uniform clean.
 
Corrosion said:
It came down to numbers , keeping 3 QB's and 6 WR's .... you arent able to keep 9-10 OL.

I was really hoping he would pass waivers and go back to the PS so he could replace Wade Smith next season.
Click to expand...

To sign Harris, they could've dumped Gardner... While that would leave them with only 3 tackles, a number of their guards could play tackle in an emergency (at least as well as Gardner)... including S.Smith.
 
dalemurphy said:
To sign Harris, they could've dumped Gardner... While that would leave them with only 3 tackles, a number of their guards could play tackle in an emergency (at least as well as Gardner)... including S.Smith.
Click to expand...

I really dont expect Gardner to stay around now that they signed Harris .... First time they need a roster spot , he'll be the one to go , and might go sooner than that once Harris is up to speed in the offense / scheme which shouldnt take long since he's been in a zone scheme , he'll just be learning terminology.
 
Corrosion said:
I really dont expect Gardner to stay around now that they signed Harris .... First time they need a roster spot , he'll be the one to go , and might go sooner than that once Harris is up to speed in the offense / scheme which shouldnt take long since he's been in a zone scheme , he'll just be learning terminology.
Click to expand...

He was drafted by Shanahan and had Dennison as his OC at one point. I don't think it's going to take Harris long to get up to speed.

If he can still "do it", he brings a lot of talent and experience to this line. He could supplant Newton although I think Newton's going to get it together as the season goes along.
 
IDEXAN said:
The team playing against the 'Phins a week from today IS NOT as talented as the team that started the 2011 season against the Colts.
Click to expand...

^^^^
But if Schaub and AJ stay healthy all yr, then YES they will be more talented by the end of the yr. That's when it all comes together and the Texans win the Lombardi. YES!!!!!! finally
 
This team is a lot more promising at WR, but the departures at OL and LB are a bit unnerving. Also, I'm a little uncomfortable with the likes of Keo and Ball seeing the field on defense. Like Vinny said, this will be a good team, but we'll see what happens.
 
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