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Maybe last years draft wasn't all Phillips.
- Thread starter DocBar
- Start date
Not sure what this has to do with last year. It's documented that Phillips gave Smith a list of players he wanted. And Smith drafted 5 of them.
Credit Smith for actually drafting the players. He did move up to take Harris. But it was Phillips' list he was drafting from.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Don't be starting a thread that hints at Rick Smith being good in the war room ... not here ..... TT won't have any part of that.
buddyboy
Rookie
Not that I don't believe you, but where is the documented evidence of this? Just curious because things tend to become fact around here after enough people say it...
I agree with the OP. The FO has gotten better at drafting, before Phillips came in and the trend has continued after he came in.
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
I getcha DB, making the point that it isn't the first time we've drafted well on D.
2009 has turned out to be a good draft, especially when you consider that some people see it as the worst overall draft class of all time (not the Texans' draft class, the draft class as a whole).
Wade definitely made a big contribution last year, but you can't discount that the bulk of the work was done by the scouting team etc with Wade likely picking based on information provided to him.
I also don't know why people are lauding last years draft as some kind of 2006 repeat right now, only 3 of them made any real contribution so far, with potential for more going forward, but we just don't know yet.
You simply have to wait 3 years before beginning to grade a draft, rewind 12 months and I'll give you the general consensus on the 2009 draft -
Cushing - PED pumping rookie season, garbage once he came off the juice
Connor Barwin - reasonable contribution in rookie season, injured sophomore, undecided but with potential
Glover Quin - Poor CB who held the team back
Caldwell - Decent starter about to be beaten out in camp by Briesel
Casey - Can't get ahead of Dreessen on the depth chart, low contribution
McCain - held us back in the worst secondary in football
Troy Nolan - people actually probably rated him higher 12 months ago than they do now.
And yet people already want to grade last years draft as some kind of epic win, I'm quietly confident, but lets wait and see eh?
2009 has turned out to be a good draft, especially when you consider that some people see it as the worst overall draft class of all time (not the Texans' draft class, the draft class as a whole).
Wade definitely made a big contribution last year, but you can't discount that the bulk of the work was done by the scouting team etc with Wade likely picking based on information provided to him.
I also don't know why people are lauding last years draft as some kind of 2006 repeat right now, only 3 of them made any real contribution so far, with potential for more going forward, but we just don't know yet.
You simply have to wait 3 years before beginning to grade a draft, rewind 12 months and I'll give you the general consensus on the 2009 draft -
Cushing - PED pumping rookie season, garbage once he came off the juice
Connor Barwin - reasonable contribution in rookie season, injured sophomore, undecided but with potential
Glover Quin - Poor CB who held the team back
Caldwell - Decent starter about to be beaten out in camp by Briesel
Casey - Can't get ahead of Dreessen on the depth chart, low contribution
McCain - held us back in the worst secondary in football
Troy Nolan - people actually probably rated him higher 12 months ago than they do now.
And yet people already want to grade last years draft as some kind of epic win, I'm quietly confident, but lets wait and see eh?
Year and title are off but damn good draft nonetheless. Let's go Texans!!! Man I'm pumped.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
That's very well may be true. Smith all but admitted in his PC and on the 610 interview that he was basically learning on the job. Especially working with other teams.
http://www.houstontexans.com/news/a...nference/62a8c4f6-de04-4926-ba34-638dc7b01b9d
TimeKiller
Guest
Correct me if I'm wrong here but are you implying you would rather have a GM who never learns anything about his job?
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
No, I'm not. I'm saying he didn't really know how to run a draft when he got here. On the job training, more or less. Similar to that of our owner, who also admitted he was learning as he went
Well, if Cushing played like garbage last year, I certainly hope he continues to play like garbage. I mean WTF?
Edit: Oh that's right - rewind the last 12 months, doh!
Its everybody. Wade didn't lock Kubiak and Smith in a closet till the draft was over. The Texans are very much into having multiple coaches from both sides of the ball scout players. Wade had more of a plan of attack, and led the players infinitly better than Bush, but he is not 100% responsible for that draft. Thats not the first good draft we have had. Had a few prior to him arriving.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
This is what I was saying after last year's draft.
Smith is pretty good at working the draft.
I think a big part of Smith's "problem" in drafts was the coaches he was working with. I think Smith is the kind of GM who sits down with the coordinators and the positional coaches, presents them with lists of guys and what the scouts think, and then creates his board off of what the coaches tell him they want.
I think he got some great feedback from Phillips and the new defensive staff and I think that resulted in a great draft. In previous years, I think he'd gotten some crappy suggestions (especially wrt defensive backs) and that led to him drafting some guys he maybe shouldn't have drafted.
Smith is pretty good at working the draft.
I think a big part of Smith's "problem" in drafts was the coaches he was working with. I think Smith is the kind of GM who sits down with the coordinators and the positional coaches, presents them with lists of guys and what the scouts think, and then creates his board off of what the coaches tell him they want.
I think he got some great feedback from Phillips and the new defensive staff and I think that resulted in a great draft. In previous years, I think he'd gotten some crappy suggestions (especially wrt defensive backs) and that led to him drafting some guys he maybe shouldn't have drafted.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Yeah, see... his point was that 2011 was a great draft. But 2009 was a great draft too and it was before Phillips. So maybe Phillips isn't the only reason we had a good draft in 2011.
I agree.
I also think that he will continue to get better the longer he does it. I think he has learned from things he's done in the past and I think this will be a good draft this year because of it.
You would think Rick may watch a little film so that he could be educated on those lists. He** he might even compile a list of his own? (Doubtful)
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
This post is all kinds of fail.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
Since you've got the finger very close to the pulse of the Texans FO office, what are Rick Smith's preparations exactly?
Did either of you happen to follow the link provided? The article was about the 10 best drafts between 2008 and 2010. I titled the thread the way I did to point out that the Texans have had good drafts before Phillips got here.
I didn't do that to downplay Phillips or overly prop up Smith.
Phillips has definitely been the catalyst for the defensive turn around and a positive influence on the team, as a whole, but Smith is, imho, turning into a rather nice talent evaluator. He's not perfect, but name me a GM who is.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
That's funny right there...
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
& here we go....I'm pretty certain that no GM on any sports franchise does that....well maybe except for Daryl Morey & look at his last couple of drafts. It's very unwise to not include your coaches in that process. Why draft & bring in players that your coaches may not necessarily like?
Typical response
We do know Rick takes a consensus. Probably whoever Gary wants on offense and Wade wants on Defense. As it should be. As far as a talent evaluator Rick is avg to below avg. He's as good as the people around him. He's certianly no Colbert/BB/Thompson when it comes to talent evaluation. 1 playoff appearence in 6 yrs doesn't change that. But you seem to be a person who will defend all that is Texans regardless of the lack of playoff appearances. If the OL gets worse next yr you will have an excuse and everthing will be hunky- dory (status quo/mediocrity, hopefully this doesn't happen but there will be excuses from you.)
Clue me in oh wise one on the great Rick Smith and his role with the Texans. If you know this answer you will be one of the few that does know what his actual role with the team is.
I can tell you this fairly certianly it isn't lead talent evaluator as it is for the GM's I mentioned above.
drs23
Veteran
0.09375% of the sitting GMs then? Hmmm, less than 1% of all 32 sitting GMs dun't make a real valid comparison point in my opinion steelb. But hey, that's prolly just me, another
. 
Yep,
I hope Gary does as good as Wade did last yr with his list. If Gary really wants a guy do you see Rick saying, no Gary you cant have him we're taking this guy. Same with Wade.
I agree with the bolded. Maybe that's why the offense has been so much better than the defense for 5 of 6 years. Smith doesn't pick coordinators, HC's do. Kubiak has chosen poorly at DC.
This season should be very, very telling as far as personnel decisions go, considering the players we let go.
dc_txtech
All Pro
I thought it was the other way around, Smith gave Wade a list and Wade edited it down to who he thought would work in his system and Smith then chose from those names.
I definitely remember the quote you're referring to though.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
Explain to me how you come to the conclusion that Rick Smith is a below average talent evaluator. Like I said in the other thread, you basically give any positive credit to other people around Smith, and any negative credit goes to him whether he is responsible or not.
Or for you, it's just business as usual.
House of Pain
Wild Speculator
True, but he may have some sort of rare disease. Apparently, he can't tell the difference between a bar and his hotel room the night before games in Denver.
Goldensilence
hipster elite
I think its really hard to tell with Rick period.
Last year showed us what a difference an at least competent DC (we got lucky and got a great one) that has a REAL scheme can do for a defense. It made the draft posted much better because we had people doing what they should be doing. Cush was lights out but, thats no matter what position. If they had better depth at CB I think Quinn would've moved to safetya long time ago. Barwin, when drafted, was projected to be a great 3-4 OLB...guess what? He produced much better as an OLB than an undersized DE.
When any GM leans on their coaching staff so much for input its really hard to grade the GM himself. Really its up to the coaching staff to make good on utilizing what they request.
Last year showed us what a difference an at least competent DC (we got lucky and got a great one) that has a REAL scheme can do for a defense. It made the draft posted much better because we had people doing what they should be doing. Cush was lights out but, thats no matter what position. If they had better depth at CB I think Quinn would've moved to safetya long time ago. Barwin, when drafted, was projected to be a great 3-4 OLB...guess what? He produced much better as an OLB than an undersized DE.
When any GM leans on their coaching staff so much for input its really hard to grade the GM himself. Really its up to the coaching staff to make good on utilizing what they request.
I don't really see too much difference between last years draft & the draft from years before.
2006, Mario Williams & Demeco Ryans. You can't tell me those two players did not make as good if not better an impact on this team as JjWatt & Brooks Reed.
2007, Amobi Okoye & Matt Schaub, eh.....
2008, Duane Brown & Matt Schaub, two big time contributers.
2009, Brian Cushing & Connor Barwin, I guarantee you if we lost either of those two guys last season, we wouldn't have made the play-offs. Guarantee.
Mario is the only guy that doesn't fit the high motor, team leader mold, & Richard Smith (who I'm not particularly a big fan of) didn't pick him.
I also think we overstate Wade's competence, or at least the incompetence of Frank Bush & Richard Smith. Frank Bush didn't all of a sudden get incompetent after 2009 & Kareem isn't so bad a draft pick to drop us to the worst pass defense in history to that point (surpassed by the Packers & Patriots this year).
Balls.
That's what Wade had that those other guys didn't. It wasn't our lack of scheme that had the Texans ranked 20th or so in total defense, it was our pansy coaches belief that the prevent defense should be played for 3 quarters.
That was the primary difference between Frank Bush 2009 & Frank Bush 2010. 2009, we attacked the ball, all the time. 2010 we had Bernard Pollard covering slot receivers.
From PFT
I'm not trying to get into a Rick Smith bash session. The Texans did have an excellent draft in 2009. Smith was a part of that. So was Frank Bush, who loved Brian Cushing. But the dynamic now is Wade letting Rick know what he wants on defense. Not Rick telling Wade what he needs. Rick still has to make it happen on draft day(s).
Mercilus was definitely a Wade pick.
And a great one at that.
And a great one at that.
My response is that he doesn't evaluate talent and he should. It's his job.
Look at Luckys response above at what role Rick plays in drafting talent.
The fact that Norg could do Ricks job when it comes to the draft says it all.
Rick and Gary provide lists, if Gary and Wade both want a player for their side of the ball, Garys side will probably win out. (He is the HC)
Rick gets no credit because he is hardly involed in the process. He gets blame if things dont work out for the same reason. I think you already know this but are just being Bong.
What do you think of Phillps pick? (Mercilus)
Goldensilence
hipster elite
I would have been happy had the defense under Bush and Smith finished in the high 20's regularly, sad as that sounds.
The defense had no clue under Bush and Smith. They so often looked out of place, confused on assignments, and they had routinely had no clue on matching personnel to... Whatever crap they were trying to run.
As incompetent as both were I have to wonder how much Gary played a role in that.
Far as overstating Wade's competence? Ummm dead last in the league prior to arrival... Fininhed second overall after first year.
I want some of what you're smoking.
Just curious, how do you know these are great talent evaluators and not taking consensus from their coaches and scouting departments. They all do have extensive scouting departments right?
sandman
Brexit Advisor
I don't know how you get that.
As been stated before, Rick's scouting staff has a list of players they scouted & believe fit Wade's system. Rick gives the list to Wade, Wade whittles it down.
Then Rick manages the draft.
Picking five out of 15 names, Rick could have scratched 10 of those names off the list before the draft started, we don't know that.
& I don't think we ever had a situation where Rick told anybody what they needed. This is the most group think organization I've ever seen in my life, they all get together & agree on whatever their sphere of influence allows.
But the article you quoted does not prove Wade has any more influence over the draft than Frank Bush or Richard Smith had other than he whittled his list down a little farther.
In 2010, the Denver Broncos were dead last in the league, followed by the Redskins, then us, then the Cardinals, then the Jags, then the Seattle Seahawks.
In 2011, the Texans, Jags, & the Seahawks finished in the top 10.
In 2010, we were dead last in passing defense, followed by Skins, Pats, Titans, Jags, & Seahawks.
In 2011, The Texans & the Jags are in the top 10, the Seahawks were 11th. Titans were 14th.
Just saying, I think Wade had some help. The same help that helped the Jags & Seahawks defense to improve as much as ours. Had their offenses been as good as ours, the numbers would most likely be closer.
In 2010, no doubt our defense looked lost. 2009, that wasn't the case. The 2009 Texans looked an aweful lot like the 2011 Texans, only we played much better offenses.
You and others said this before - with links to pressers to back it up - and so have I. But some folks' dislike (there's no other word for it) for Smithiak won't let them accept it.
The Scouting Staff makes the player evaluations.
The coordinators/coaches determine what players attributes/characteristics best fit their scheme.
Smith gets with both to put together to rank players and establish the big board. It's also his job to make sure the Texans end up with who the coordinators/coaches want while making a deal or two, when possible, to get extra picks.
This is definitely drafting by committee. And recently, in the early rounds anyway, it's worked more times than it hasn't.
JB, good to hear from you, it figures it would take a crazy post like that to get a response. PM me and tell me how it has been going.
Response to your post, I dont know, but I do know BB makes the calls for the Pats. Thompson/Colbert would've been fired after 5yrs of failure. Those teams dont have the same mind set as the Texans. They fired Mike Sherman even though he had a high winning % at the time he was fired, same for the Steelers.
The Texans, not so much.