What would make Vince a great QB in the NFL?

[Wolf]

I know about his leadership skills and running skills. but what separates Vince from everyone else? just curious..

me..
Leadership.. guys around him believe in him
running.. when the pocket breaks down, he can run..

what else? touch on short passes??? cannon for an arm? what?

Also.. what gets neutralized at the NFL level ?

I'll say Vince has to sit on the bench until he learns the pro game.. the zone read won't work in the NFL.. if running QB's were the norm.. Nebraska would have cornered the market long time ago

 

[stevo3883]

well first thing that seperates him from everyone else is obviously his athletic abilities.

to be 6'5 235 lbs and run a 4.4 is pretty much unheard of. He is as fast as most DB's and as big as most lb's. He doesn't take hard hits and has amazing vision when running.

the thing that REALLY seperates him from all the other running qb's is that his passing has improved tremendously. He had a qb rating higher thna leinart, throwing for 3000 yards & 26 td's while playing just 1 half in all but 3 games.

there has never been a qb who has passed for 2500 and run for 1000. vince passed for 3000 and ran for 1000, setting a mark that might not be broken any time soon.

He has great touch on his long ball, and has a strong arm. he can make the throws.

he will need work on his footwork. he often makes throws off balance across his body relying solely on his arm and not on his body. he sometimes tries to do too much and forces balls when he shouldnt.

in the nfl i can see his passing being less successful right away, but the same can be said for every qb who has ever gone in the nfl. but i honestly don't think his running will be neutralized any, his size/speed combo is insane.

 

[LBC_Justin]

well first thing that seperates him from everyone else is obviously his athletic abilities.

1. to be 6'5 235 lbs and run a 4.4 is pretty much unheard of. He is as fast as most DB's and as big as most lb's. He doesn't take hard hits and has amazing vision when running.

2. the thing that REALLY seperates him from all the other running qb's is that his passing has improved tremendously. He had a qb rating higher thna leinart, throwing for 3000 yards & 26 td's while playing just 1 half in all but 3 games.Your post in implying he is a better passer than Leinart. That is a little misleading.

3. there has never been a qb who has passed for 2500 and run for 1000. vince passed for 3000 and ran for 1000, setting a mark that might not be broken any time soon.
4.
He has great touch on his long ball, and has a strong arm. he can make the throws.

he will need work on his footwork. he often makes throws off balance across his body relying solely on his arm and not on his body. he sometimes tries to do too much and forces balls when he shouldnt.

in the nfl i can see his passing being less successful right away, but the same can be said for every qb who has ever gone in the nfl. but i honestly don't think his running will be neutralized any, his size/speed combo is insane.

1. VY is an amazing athlete but he does not have "Unheard of" talent...in fact there was a guy drafted last year that is Taller, Bigger, Faster and known to be a HUGE play maker. Here is a quote about the guy "His combination of size and speed has scouts drooling over an athlete they call 'Freak.'"

2. Your post is implying he is a better passer than Leinart.(I am speaking strictly from a passing stand point.) That is tad bit misleading. Now this year Vince Young did have a better passer rating than Matt Leinart but not by much. Leinart has consistently put up high passer rating numbers, in is first year as a starter he put up a slightly higher Passer rating than Vince did in his best year. Lets also not forget...
- In Leinarts worst year he passed for more yards than VY did in his best year.
- In Leinarts worst year he passed for more touchdowns than VY did in his best year.
- In Leinarts worst year he passed for less interceptions than VY did in his best year.

For the Record I don't think the Texans should pick Matt Leinart.(Or any QB) But let's not sell the guy short.

3. Yes VY had an amazing year. One for the record books. He probably had more running plays designed for him than any QB in the history of college football. He is probably the best college QB at running the ball.

4. Many scouts have his arm strength at "Marginal", or "Shows decent but not good arm strength" (Matt Leinart too) He certainly doesn't have the arm strength of Cutler. From what I read he hangs his long balls a little. But I don't know.

These are the scouting quotes that scare me. These are from some of the top pro scouts.
"Does not show a good comprehension of reading defenses and making progression reads."
"Tries to force things when they are not available."
"Must learn to better protect the football."
"Takes too many chances when protection is breaking down and throws too many passes up for grabs."
"Is impatient in the pocket."
"Frequently takes off too early and does not allow his receivers enough time to separate."

My point is not to dis Vince as I could post a similar list on just about every player in the draft. I just want to drop a dose of reality since most of us can easily get caught up in Vince the "Legend" rather than Vince the "actual person".

Here is what I think will make Vince successful in the NFL.
- The guy is a natural born leader. He has a ton of poise and knows how to ralley to troops.
- A defense must respect his ability to break off a long run. The fact that he can run opens up a lot of passing opportunites for him.
- He is be very hard to game plan against as a coach.
- He is strong. If a DB is trying to sack him he can often still stay standing and get a quality pass off. (I have seen DBs hit him and just fall down like they were not expecting a QB to be as big and strong as him) But this is the NFL, things are going to be very different.


Like all QB's he will need an Offensive line that is capable of protecting him. If he gets the same poor level of protection that Carr has gotten the last FOUR years his results will be NO DIFFERENT than Carrs were. No QB or team for that matter is successful with a pathetic O-line.

 

[MorKnolle]

LBC, I agree with about everything you said, well done.

 

[BlueThunder]

Leinart's last game he threw for more ints then Vince..Vince flat out played that whole team.Mater of fact Vince out played everyone in college football the last 17 games.You know if the Texans draft young all the sports gurus are going to put him down.They will say he was the wrong pick and give rookie of the year to Bush.You guys better take Bush for all the spurt.

The answer is for the team that really wants him to get him.

I don't really think the Texans want Vince Young.I think if they want someone else it would be stupid to take Vince.

 

[Huge]

What would make him great is his leadership and poise. Take a look at the other all-time greats and that's the first two characteristics that come up. Everything else mentioned is second fiddle because the all-timers didn't share the other characteristics.

Montana didn't have great arm strength.
Marino didn't have great mobility.
Elway didn't have much touch on the ball.
Etc.

Having all the physical tools is simply not enough (see Jeff George, Ryan Leaf, etc.) or even required. But there's no question that Vince has the two most important aspects.

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

11 of the past 15 years Super Bowl winning QB's all had great vision and poise and leadership:

T. Brady
T. Aikman
B. R-berger
S. Young
P. Simms
J. Montana
J. Elway
B. Favre

The 4 in question are T. Dilfer, B. Johnson, K. Warner, M. Rypien:

T. Dilfer since his D was possibly the best ever and that the offense didn't score very much. Actually had a 2-3 game stretch where they had no TD's. I don't even think he was the starter the whole season.

B. Johnson had good vision and good leadership but also had one of the great D's our generation. That D won alot of games for them. B. Johnson was pretty much mistake free and that was his claim to fame that season.

K. Warner had all the right peices in place as well as a Mad-Man for an O-coodinator. Bush reminds of Faulk. Holt and Bruce are both great receivers and that had alot to with it. He had good leadeship though with exceptional vision but went it went away it went away fast. Reminds me of movies where some ***** made a deal with the devil.

M. Rypien I'm unsure of. I don't remember anything about that SB. Someone fill me in if they deem it neccassary.

Of the 11 above, 9 of them got their teams to multiple Super Bowls. Of the 4 only 1 got his to multiple appearances (K. Warner)

It doesn't matter where you get the guy, if they have that particular intangible then you must take him when you have the chance, whether it's FA, Draft, trade, from the Canadian league, wherever.....

Morale of the story is the 11 were on good teams where they lead the offense to score points and kept the pressure off of the D. And the 4 were on a team that either had a freaky good D or all the right pieces in place in order to help their marginal palymakin' look exceptional for a season.

 

[Frills]

His ability to run the spread offense in the NFL....damn nevermind

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

Ya know Frills, VY said they basically run the colts offense. Now I find that hard to believe, but they're not running the spread all the time. Maybe the routes and formations are that of the colts but on designed QB runs and options it's the spread. It just appears like the spread when he finds no open receivers and scrambles but he has superior scramblin' ability so it appears like they're runnung the spread all the time.

 

[MorKnolle]

Leinart's last game he threw for more ints then Vince..Vince flat out played that whole team.Mater of fact Vince out played everyone in college football the last 17 games.You know if the Texans draft young all the sports gurus are going to put him down.They will say he was the wrong pick and give rookie of the year to Bush.You guys better take Bush for all the spurt.

The answer is for the team that really wants him to get him.

I don't really think the Texans want Vince Young.I think if they want someone else it would be stupid to take Vince.

Now you're getting the idea.

 

[Frills]

They ran a similar offense that OU ran in 2000 when they won. Stoops came to OU didn't have a ton of takent, got a JuCo QB and ran the spread which compensates for the talent deficiency. Over the past few years now that they are getting more talent, its evolved into a more pro style.

To claim that its the Colt's offense is a joke.

The spread UT ran made it simple for Vince to read coverages, they tried running a pro style offense, VY couldn't understand it and make the reads so Mack dumbed it down into a spread.

 

[Long-Spurs-Texan]

Now you're getting the idea.

Yep, I agree too. At least we'll get to see him in our endzone two games a year, in a Titans uniform. Imagine how motivated he will be to face us, every year. I wonder if the Texans will ever beat the Titans in the next 10 years if he goes there?

 

[Frills]

Yep, I agree too. At least we'll get to see him in our endzone two games a year, in a Titans uniform. Imagine how motivated he will be to face us, every year. I wonder if the Texans will ever beat the Titans in the next 10 years if he goes there?

Sure when he thinks he can run in the NFL like he does against Baylor...He'll play in 12-14 games each season but have to sit due to some nagging injury, look at Vick.

Face it, the only good defense he played was Ohio State which was very overrated when they faced off. The big 12 was horrible this year, and the USC defense was a joke.

 

[Vinny]

I can't wait to see his skill set at the professional level and where his upside levels out at. He is what Clyde Drexler would look like playing QB. It will be fun to watch his career as there really is nobody like him. I think he is going to be a superstar and all he needs is time to learn.

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

Sure when he thinks he can run in the NFL like he does against Baylor...He'll play in 12-14 games each season but have to sit due to some nagging injury, look at Vick.

Face it, the only good defense he played was Ohio State which was very overrated when they faced off. The big 12 was horrible this year, and the USC defense was a joke.

ha ha ha.......(louder) ha ha ha ha
You could say this all the QB's. Carr/Leinert/vick/Young.....any of them have a naggin' injury or 2 in their career. One thing to note is that VY hasn't experienced any type of injury that forced him to miss any action.

Just in case you forgot, 99% of all NFL players come from the NCAA whether or not their conference had a down year or not. And the Big 12 was not horrible, but since you brought it up, so was the Pac-10, Big 10 and the ACC. Actually the only conference worth a crap is the SEC.Do you believe we should only take players from there and there only?

 

[Frills]

Before this year, VY "Couldn't win the big one"

UT fans were calling for his job, to the extent that if he didn't win vs OU there was national talk about his job security.

I'll take a proven commodity over the past 2 seasons versus another who had a great season versus average competition.

 

[MorKnolle]

Yep, I agree too. At least we'll get to see him in our endzone two games a year, in a Titans uniform. Imagine how motivated he will be to face us, every year. I wonder if the Texans will ever beat the Titans in the next 10 years if he goes there?

As long as Kubes takes care of his business and constructs this team with some good players and coaches them well then I'm not worried about having to face any divisional opponent. I don't expect to win them all but I'm not going to stress out about them either. Tennessee was barely a better team than us this year, they have another offseason in which they're going to have to make a lot of moves and clear up a whole lot of cap room, so I'm not at all worried about Vince making that big of an impact there in the near future (I doubt he plays next year anyways), meanwhile we are in an excellent position to start building this team around our new head coach and systems while Tennessee will be a year or two behind us in the rebuilding process, so I think we have the upper hand there. I think Indy has finally hit their peak and could be starting the declining part of their team's cycle as their good players are getting old and expensive and they will have to start shuffling guys around a lot in the next couple years, so I think in a couple years we could be overtaking them. Jacksonville is the only team that I would say I'm even close to worrying about over the span of the next 4-5 years (obviously we won't be able to hang with the Colts this coming season or maybe even the next, but the time is coming).

 

[Long-Spurs-Texan]

Sure when he thinks he can run in the NFL like he does against Baylor...He'll play in 12-14 games each season but have to sit due to some nagging injury, look at Vick.

Face it, the only good defense he played was Ohio State which was very overrated when they faced off. The big 12 was horrible this year, and the USC defense was a joke.

LOL, Baylor Defense - Big 12 = Texans Defense - AFC! My point was against US!

Ohio State had an awesome D (3 NFL LB's with an entire offseason to gameplan for Vince), and the USC team was being called one of the top 2-3 teams in the HISTORY of College FB by anyone with a microphone. Give it a rest.

 

[Frills]

Everyone knew before the Rose Bowl that it was going to be a Shootout, the o/u was in the high 70's low 80's

A total that high isn't giving credit to either defense.

 

[MorKnolle]

I posted this in the Bush thread, so I'll give my opinions on Vince. There are two aspects of this that people have posted on: 1) What about Vince gives him the potential to be an elite QB in the NFL? and 2) What else does Vince require in order to become this elite QB? Here's my attempted take on both those parts (please pardon the length, but this is all the info I could think about it, so if you want my opinion on him, here it is, and FYI this is a mixture of my opinion and my couple scout friends' opinions).

1) POSITIVES: Vince Young has good size for an NFL QB. Being 6'5" is a great height for a QB, and 230-235 lbs. is a pretty solid build too, nothing overly dominating in terms of strength but definitely not bad either. Vince has great mobility for a QB, especially one of his size. In college he was able to take over games with his mobility, which won't happen anywhere near as much in the NFL, but it does give him an additional aspect of his offensive game that defenses will have to worry about (he is not going to run away from any NFL DBs or even most LBs though, again in terms of Madden for those of you who think that way, he will probably have 83-85 speed, 72-75 agility, and 75-78 acceleration, not as fast as Vick but definitely one of the top couple QBs in the NFL). Vince has a decently strong arm, albeit a funny release (I'll get to that in the negatives). He has displayed great leadership in the college game and an ability to improve the play of others around him and lead his team to victory. How well that ability translates over into the NFL is yet to be seen, and similarly when he'll be given that opportunity to become a leader and take over and how well he'll respond to that call is yet to be see (he won't immediately inspire his teammates as a rookie sitting on the bench, so don't bring that argument). He is generally a pretty heady player, he doesn't always recognize defenses and make the correct read/play, but you can generally tell he's at least thinking about it rather than losing poise, ducking, and running with the ball like Michael Vick.

NEGATIVES: Vince does not have an NFL-ready throw. His throwing motion is a little funky and he tends to float balls that are thrown down field (somewhat a given trait of a sidearm throw). Some people say this can easily be fixed, but at the same time other QBs in the NFL with funky releases haven't magically fixed their's in half a season, but many of them can deal with their different throwing style anyways. Vince frequently doesn't set his feet and put his body into his throws, many times he is throwing off balance or otherwise doesn't support his throw, which takes some zip off of it and will leave balls floating out there. He does not have great arm strength to make great throws downfield with top accuracy, many of his balls are floated out there and underthrown/overthrown. Many times in college he could get away with it because he had nice WRs that came back and made plays on the ball (see Fitzgerald's catch in the Pro-Bowl from Vick's desperation throw), but that generally won't work in a real NFL game. He hasn't shown the ability to throw out routes very well, everything has been over the middle. His ability to read defenses has been questioned, he frequently makes appropriate checks pretty well (many, not all, of his "great decisions and good throws" in the Rose Bowl were to unguarded players, go watch game tape again on it if you want) but still does not read defenses as well as others and will try to force plays when nothing is there. He does not have much experience playing under center or running a pro-style offense (many college QBs don't run pro offenses, but for argument's sake Leinart ran something very close to one and did a very good job at it for three years). Most rookies (especially QBs) don't make an immediate impact in the NFL, and many people say Vince will require some extra time before he's ready.

2) Some additional things Vince will need to become a dominant QB in the NFL. Vince will need appropriate time to improve his personal skills/techniques to be ready for the NFL. I don't see him being able to come in and do much in his first season, maybe his first two seasons. He will need time to learn the NFL game, figure out when he can/shouldn't run, read defenses better, and adjust himself to the game. He will need a solid OLine around him to be effective (every QB does), he won't be able to put up magical numbers and go to the Super Bowl with a bad OLine. He had a great OLine at UT which gave him good blocking, a ton of time to make his reads and throw the ball, and kept lanes open for him to run from the pocket if he chose to do so. He will need some pretty good WRs around him (this always helps QBs), but aside from the obvious I think many QBs are hindered by not having a certain type of receivers for him, guys that can run routes and get the separation for the QB to get the ball in there, and then make adjustments and catch the ball if it's thrown a little off (a lot of this is in the coaching too). I think this has been part of Michael Vick's problem while other guys (Manning and his WRs) do this very well and help their QB out. Vince will need good coaching to get his skills up, but he'll likely also need to have his team adjust its offensive scheme for him, running QBs generally do, and if he's truly that rare and special of a talent then they might have to come up with a totally new system for him like the Falcons tried to do with Vick, and then it becomes an issue of whether or not they can create an appropriate system that works for him, the rest of his offensive teammates, and the backup QB in case something happens to Vince.

Vince by all indications should be a good NFL QB. I don't see the guaranteed legend or guaranteed star QB in him that many other people do, I think he has the potential to be great but a lot of things have to happen for that potential to be realized. I personally don't think he adds much if anything more to this offense than what Carr can bring, and my personal preference on QB style is more of what I see Carr being as opposed to what I see Vince being. If this was Madden I'd likely take Vince in a heartbeat because speed kills on that game (Bush makes a strong case on this too) and every other aspect of their game can be easily improved or is directly controlled by you, but that isn't how it works in the NFL. I see a lot of work that needs to be done on him, and I think Carr is a solid QB, so I don't like using a #1 pick and all that money on what I consider to be a project at QB or an "insurance plan". I think that pick and that money can be better used on adding more talent to the team at positions that we need help at and improve the rest of the team around the guys that I consider to be our current young stars (stars used for lack of a better term, maybe not studs right now but guys that have the ability to be studs and are solid guys that should play on this team: David Carr, Domanick Davis, Andre Johnson, Jerome Mathis?, Chester Pitts, Dunta Robinson). If it was a matter of signing Vince as a free agent without having to give up on adding another talented player with the #1 pick then I'd be much more open to picking him up as our insurance policy at QB, but I would rather get that impact player that adds to our core (Bush on offense) or specifically addresses a key need with a stud (Mario). Would you rather upgrade QBs from David Carr to Vince Young (in my mind not any of a current upgrade, maybe a potential upgrade in the future) or at DE from Jason Babin to Mario Williams while adding more picks and costing less money? To me that's a no-brainer.

 

[stevo3883]

honestly mork i dont agree with the weak arm stuff for vince at all. scouts can say it all they want, but ive watched vince since he was a junior in high school and its never been a question of arm strength, its always been about accuracy. ive seen him play every single game and ive watched countless practices, he can make every throw no question.

and comparing his throws to vick's hail mary in the pro-bowl... im sorry but thats ridiculous that you just won't give vince any credit. his throws arent like that, im sorry if you're too blind to see it..

 

[thunderkyss]

What I like most about Vince, and what I think is going to make him successful in the NFL, is his ability to see the field, even when he is running. Even while on the move, he'll look to at least two recievers, and decide where to throw the ball. Under pressure, with DBs hanging on his feet, he can deliver a fairly accurate strike.

He definitely has to work on throwing that tight spiral more consistently. He let's way too many balls float & wobble..... He's also going to have to understand, that he isn't the only one on the team, and not try to do too much.

What I think is funny, all the VY haters go on and on about how his size/strength, running, passing, leadership, etc... won't translate at all to the NFL, but Reggie/D'Brick are going to light up the NFL from Day one...... no adjustment necessary. Defensive Line men are only bigger, stronger, quicker, better when it comes to sacking QBs.... not when pass rushing an OT, not when going after the RB in the backfield........ only on pass rushes. LBs, DBs, are only better when they are defending a pass, or stoping a QB from running 20 yards. Not when defending a Running back...... not when blitzing past an OT.....

Culpepper, McNabb, Vick........ all of them did exactly what they did in college.......... only better.

 

[MorKnolle]

honestly mork i dont agree with the weak arm stuff for vince at all. scouts can say it all they want, but ive watched vince since he was a junior in high school and its never been a question of arm strength, its always been about accuracy. ive seen him play every single game and ive watched countless practices, he can make every throw no question.

and comparing his throws to vick's hail mary in the pro-bowl... im sorry but thats ridiculous that you just won't give vince any credit. his throws arent like that, im sorry if you're too blind to see it..

I think Vince physically has a strong arm and can sometimes make those throws, I think a lot of his arm strength questions come from his overall technique that limits his throwing ability and cause a more inconsistent throw and throws that are lofted a little more and have less zip on the ball, not the total length of his throw, although that isn't anything astounding either. I think those techniques can be improved and could improve the perception of his arm strength, but as of now I don't think he is considered to have a consistently strong throw. I didn't watch too many UT games this year, but I saw a couple throws each game that were similar to Vick's in the Pro-Bowl, maybe not that bad of a throw but similar. If I had recorded any of the games I'd go back and pull out some clips for you to show you what I saw on them.

 

[kastofsna]

his long balls float a lot and generally lack accuracy because of his release. what makes young a great NFL QB: athletic ability, the fact that he's progressed nicely as a passer, clutch ability. what he needs to do to become a great NFL QB: play the position more, for one...he's still very raw as a passer. mechanics are sloppy. will panic under pressure

 

[stevo3883]

I think Vince physically has a strong arm and can sometimes make those throws, I think a lot of his arm strength questions come from his overall technique that limits his throwing ability and cause a more inconsistent throw and throws that are lofted a little more and have less zip on the ball, not the total length of his throw, although that isn't anything astounding either. I think those techniques can be improved and could improve the perception of his arm strength, but as of now I don't think he is considered to have a consistently strong throw. I didn't watch too many UT games this year, but I saw a couple throws each game that were similar to Vick's in the Pro-Bowl, maybe not that bad of a throw but similar. If I had recorded any of the games I'd go back and pull out some clips for you to show you what I saw on them.

let me go ahead and tell you then that those 4 or 5 passes to sweed were the exception and not the rule.

He only had 1 loft pass to anyone other than sweed, and that was to cosby in the KU game.

I can point out to you countless times he made perfect long throws leading the receiver who caught it in stride.

TD pass to Ramonce in OU game- OU blitzed Vince had about 1 second to throw, perfect pass 1st td for a longhorn WR in 5 years.

TD pass to Pittman in OU game, im sure you have seen this one. led him perfectly

TD pass to thomas in Okst game, thrown through 3 defenders, perfect pass + catch

Sweed in tOSU game- hit him on outside shoulder in corner of endzone. perfect pass in that coverage



trust me mork, i can tell you havent watched manyUT games this year. You are way too overly critical of Vince, and make statements about his arm strength and just plain playing ability that just arent true.

 

[MorKnolle]

let me go ahead and tell you then that those 4 or 5 passes to sweed were the exception and not the rule.

He only had 1 loft pass to anyone other than sweed, and that was to cosby in the KU game.

I can point out to you countless times he made perfect long throws leading the receiver who caught it in stride.

TD pass to Ramonce in OU game- OU blitzed Vince had about 1 second to throw, perfect pass 1st td for a longhorn WR in 5 years.

TD pass to Pittman in OU game, im sure you have seen this one. led him perfectly

TD pass to thomas in Okst game, thrown through 3 defenders, perfect pass + catch

Sweed in tOSU game- hit him on outside shoulder in corner of endzone. perfect pass in that coverage



trust me mork, i can tell you havent watched manyUT games this year. You are way too overly critical of Vince, and make statements about his arm strength and just plain playing ability that just arent true.

I have watched 4-5 of his games and I've heard from people I know that have scouted every one of his games on actual scouting tapes of every play he's been in this year. I will trust their opinions over any fans' on this board, especially when they coincide with the opinion I already had of him.

 

[Vinny]

I have watched 4-5 of his games and I've heard from people I know that have scouted every one of his games on actual scouting tapes of every play he's been in this year. I will trust their opinions over any fans' on this board, especially when they coincide with the opinion I already had of him.

I don't get the vibe you saw him much before the Rose bowl myself. Before that game you called him slow (slower than Gaffney) and since then you have slowly changed your opinion of him even though no more games have been played.

That would be pointless. Vince Young is slower than Gaffney or any other receiver on our team and I would be willing to bet he can't catch as well either, so other than him being 6'5" he would be inferior in any way to any WR currently on our team.

Vince Young has stated he is not coming out this year so it won't matter anyways, but as a few people have mentioned if he did come out he would be picked early first round, likely in the top 5. Vince will want to stay at QB since that has been his position and he has stated that he does not want to switch positions at all. Drafting him at QB would be even more pointless as he is not much, if any, faster than David Carr and has a noodle of an arm compared to Carr.

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=198393&postcount=4

Vince Young is playing in college at the moment, he does not have the speed to break away from NFL defenses, that's why I said NFL breakaway speed.

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=200785&postcount=134

About the only way Young would get the Heisman is if UT beats USC for the national championship and Young has a game like he did in the Rose Bowl last year, and that won't happen.

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=195182&postcount=11

priceless stuff

 

[MorKnolle]

I don't get the vibe you saw him much before the Rose bowl myself. Before that game you called him slow (slower than Gaffney) and since then you have slowly changed your opinion of him even though no more games have been played.


http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=198393&postcount=4
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=200785&postcount=134


http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=195182&postcount=11

priceless stuff

When did I ever change my opinion on his speed? I still don't think he's any faster than Gaffney and he definitely doesn't have breakaway speed for the NFL. Yes he proved my original prediction wrong on his Rose Bowl performance, I have no problem admitting that. The Rose Bowl apparently changed so many other peoples' views and numerous other people have said things like "the more I think about Vince the more I like him..." ect. and suddenly he's the best college QB since whenever, so why can't I slightly change my view after that game? I have also seen some video clips of actual game play (not just highlight reels) and talked with people about him since that have somewhat formed my opinions a little, and obviously I have thought about it a lot more since he's suddenly be thrust into the spotlight rather than resting on the back burner.

 

[Vinny]

I'm just glad we can look up all the old comments made. It's funny stuff.

 

[thunderkyss]

Wow, he's not much faster than Carr, and has a noodle of an arm in comparison...... but still top 5.... Morknolle Which greek God did Carr come from??

Originally Posted by MorKnolle
About the only way Young would get the Heisman is if UT beats USC for the national championship and Young has a game like he did in the Rose Bowl last year, and that won't happen.

Now I understand the bitterness...

But you had him as a top 5 pick before the RoseBowl 2005........ SaaaWeeeet.

 

[Coach C.]

Mork see the Dr. Varnell esque moves of Vinny. Told you dude. Anyway I see were both sides are coming from and I think Vince is gonna be a very good QB in 2yrs. One year to learn, one year to suck as a starter, and in that third year he will turn it on and be just dangerous. I still agree that VY is not faster than Gaffney. He is faster than Carr, but I would be suprised if Vince runs anything below a 4.5, he will get my props for it. I dont mind admitting when I am wrong.

 

[MorKnolle]

Mork see the Dr. Varnell esque moves of Vinny. Told you dude. Anyway I see were both sides are coming from and I think Vince is gonna be a very good QB in 2yrs. One year to learn, one year to suck as a starter, and in that third year he will turn it on and be just dangerous. I still agree that VY is not faster than Gaffney. He is faster than Carr, but I would be suprised if Vince runs anything below a 4.5, he will get my props for it. I dont mind admitting when I am wrong.

Yes I see it. Besides, the thread they pulled that quote from was talking about us drafting Vince Young as a WR, hence the comparisons to Gaffney, and yes I did say that Vince would likely be a top 5 pick if he came out this year. We have since found out Vince is coming out, he indeed likely will be a top 5 pick as I said months ago, and other than that my opinion on him has not changed much at all, but apparently me saying that he would make a lousy WR for us 3 months ago to me now saying he should be a good NFL QB means I didn't watch any of his games this year.

 

[Vinny]

who's "they"? I just said that I didn't see you as one of the guys who saw Young much before the Rose bowl....Characterizing him as slow was one tip off. You said more than once he didn't have "NFL Speed"

 

[MorKnolle]

who's "they"? I just said that I didn't see you as one of the guys who saw Young much before the Rose bowl....Characterizing him as slow was one tip off. You said more than once he didn't have "NFL Speed"

As I just posted, the thread you pulled that from was saying we should draft him as a WR and I was saying he is not fast for a WR, I have never said he is not fast for a QB, I did say he was not much faster than Carr, which I still stand by. In a sprint Young would beat Carr but Carr is a little smaller and quicker so he's not that much slower than Vince on an NFL field. As I repeatedly said before, he does not have NFL breakaway speed, as in he is not going to outrun DBs like some people were claiming. He'll outrun most every DLineman in the league and half the LBs, but he's not going to bust out 80 yard runs and put distance between himself and every player on the defense in the NFL like he did a couple times in college.

 

[jerek]

I ... like ... Microsoft ...

 

[Nighthawk]

As I just posted, the thread you pulled that from was saying we should draft him as a WR and I was saying he is not fast for a WR, I have never said he is not fast for a QB, I did say he was not much faster than Carr, which I still stand by. In a sprint Young would beat Carr but Carr is a little smaller and quicker so he's not that much slower than Vince on an NFL field. As I repeatedly said before, he does not have NFL breakaway speed, as in he is not going to outrun DBs like some people were claiming. He'll outrun most every DLineman in the league and half the LBs, but he's not going to bust out 80 yard runs and put distance between himself and every player on the defense in the NFL like he did a couple times in college.

Interesting to see what happens when you get Morknolle in a corner. He's a Bushie!

 

[Texans_Chick]

I have watched 4-5 of his games and I've heard from people I know that have scouted every one of his games on actual scouting tapes of every play he's been in this year. I will trust their opinions over any fans' on this board, especially when they coincide with the opinion I already had of him.

Now I understand.

As I just posted, the thread you pulled that from was saying we should draft him as a WR and I was saying he is not fast for a WR, I have never said he is not fast for a QB, I did say he was not much faster than Carr, which I still stand by. In a sprint Young would beat Carr but Carr is a little smaller and quicker so he's not that much slower than Vince on an NFL field. As I repeatedly said before, he does not have NFL breakaway speed, as in he is not going to outrun DBs like some people were claiming. He'll outrun most every DLineman in the league and half the LBs, but he's not going to bust out 80 yard runs and put distance between himself and every player on the defense in the NFL like he did a couple times in college.

OK, the Carr speed comparison gets me to giggling.

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs
93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs

I know that Carr has some bigtime rushing yards in the AFC for a QB but that is more of a product of self-preservation and attempting to get a slide first down. I am guessing, given his skill set, that the best case scenario for the Texans would be Carr not running so much--that it would mean that he has some pocket presence and protection.

As for outrunning DBs, the problem for defenses is that if VY gets in the secondary, you are already in bigtime trouble given that he has some real moves and is hard to tackle.

VY says that since the season was over, he has been working more on his speed. I cannot imagine.

As for hindsight being 20/20, I am sure a number of these threads will be inadvertant humor in the future. I just hope that it ends up being funny funny, and not bitter funny because our draft was non-good.

 

[BringItOn]

Before this year, VY "Couldn't win the big one"

UT fans were calling for his job, to the extent that if he didn't win vs OU there was national talk about his job security.

I'll take a proven commodity over the past 2 seasons versus another who had a great season versus average competition.

Before this year, it was Mack Brown couldn't win the big one -- not VY. VY won big games and had big come backs over the last two seasons. He only lost to one team during that period, Oklahoma, who ended up going to the national championship game. I don't know what team you were watching and really am not sure how much more proof you would need.

 

[Huge]

They ran a similar offense that OU ran in 2000 when they won. Stoops came to OU didn't have a ton of takent, got a JuCo QB and ran the spread which compensates for the talent deficiency. Over the past few years now that they are getting more talent, its evolved into a more pro style.

To claim that its the Colt's offense is a joke.

The spread UT ran made it simple for Vince to read coverages, they tried running a pro style offense, VY couldn't understand it and make the reads so Mack dumbed it down into a spread.

Mack's old offense struggled at times with a QB that's currently starting in the NFL and with one that is the new OC at Rice. When Vince took over that offense, it continued to struggle. After the offense was changed to suit Vince's talents (not his inabilities), they exploded.

Now is that an indication that Vince couldn't handle that offense or that that particular offense was bad to begin with? You might want to do a little research on their past performances with QB's that wouldn't be accused of not being able to read defenses before you answer that.

Louisville runs an offense that's simliar to Texas'. It helped Brian Brohm finish among the nation's best in passing efficiency (as well as Stefan LeFors two years ago). Did you read a bunch of articles about the offense being dumbed down for them? What about Utah and Alex Smith? Their spread offense led to him being the 1st overall draft pick. Dumbed down offense? Troy Smith, Brady Quinn, Omar Jacobs, are other examples.

Moron QBs who can't function in more sophisticated offenses or just offensive coordinators utilizing the talents of their QBs?

Stupid observation #1.

Before this year, VY "Couldn't win the big one"

Yeah, winning the Rose Bowl against Michigan was on the same level as a backyard pick up game.

Stupid observation #2.

 

[Nighthawk]

OK, the Carr speed comparison gets me to giggling.

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs
93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs

And competition was significantly tougher for Young than for David "Speedy" Carr.

But then again, SOMEBODY saw 4 games [and chatted with his many NFL scout friends] and thus confirmed the opinion he already had!

Gotta love it.

 

[Huge]

You can be pretty fast but not be an effective runner (just as there are slower runners that are very effective runners).

Carr is faster than many think. But he's not in the same hemisphere of the runner that Young is.

 

[thunderkyss]

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs

Is the trend for things to normally go down?? I mean if Vince had more attempts(played more full games), would you expect his completion percentage to go up, or down........ same with his average yards/attempt.

Surely his ints would go up too...

 

[MorKnolle]

Interesting to see what happens when you get Morknolle in a corner. He's a Bushie!

Huh? I have never said Vince was slow for a QB, go look at every one of my posts and try to find where I ever said that. I said back then and still now say he does not have breakaway NFL speed and he will not create separation from DBs or most LBs in the NFL like he does in college, and the whole thread you people are pulling my quotes from is talking about Vince being drafted to play WR for us, hence the comment about his lack of breakaway speed and being slow for a WR. You people obviously don't read my whole posts and pull out half a sentence and complain about it. Is this because you finally sense the Vince at #1 idea slipping thru your fingers and are desperately clutching for something to hang onto a shred of hope for drafting him?

And competition was significantly tougher for Young than for David "Speedy" Carr.

But then again, SOMEBODY saw 4 games [and chatted with his many NFL scout friends] and thus confirmed the opinion he already had!

Gotta love it.

That's fine, you can stay in your imaginary world in which we have enough good reason to draft Vince and cling to that fantasy to the very last possible second, and I'll stay in my enlightened world in which people actually realize he isn't the best option for our team, and people that are professionals in this field actually acknowledge that Vince does indeed have some flaws and should not be the #1 overall pick to this team.

 

[Frills]

Wgat can make VY a great QB in the NFL?

Brain transplant...he has physical skills, but is greatly lacking upstairs

 

[Hookem Horns]

Wgat can make VY a great QB in the NFL?

Brain transplant...he has physical skills, but is greatly lacking upstairs

Frills, please inform us why you think VY has a low IQ? Do you have access to his academic scores or are you just being an ignorant redneck? Just curious.

 

[Frills]

He was in a pro style offense his first 2 years when everyone was saying he couldn't win the big one, when fans were calling for Mack's head.

After struggling for 2 years in a prostyle offense, Mack was finally able to dumb it down enough into a spread offense where reads are drastically easier and then VY flourished when he could use athletic ability rather than his head.

The spread isn't run in the NFL and he's proven he can't grasp the pro style offense or make the tough reads

 

[MorKnolle]

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs
93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs

And competition was significantly tougher for Young than for David "Speedy" Carr.

An interesting thing to add on the competition between these two guys in college and the success of QBs in those conferences. I pulled up a list of arguably the best 50 QBs currently in the NFL, all the starters and then the more productive/skilled backups.

Peyton Manning, Tennessee, SEC
Carson Palmer, USC, Pac-10
Ben Roethlisberger, Miami (OH), MAC
Matt Hasselbeck, Boston College, ACC (Big East)
Marc Bulger, West Virginia, Big East
Tom Brady, Michigan, Big 10
Jake Plummer, Arizona St., Pac-10
Trent Green, Indiana, Big 10
Byron Leftwich, Marshall, MAC
Drew Brees, Purdue, Big 10
Brad Johnson, Florida St., ACC
Jake Delhomme, LA-Lafayette, Sun Belt
Mark Brunell, Washington, Pac-10
Kurt Warner, Northern Iowa, Gateway (1-AA)
Kelly Holcomb, Middle Tennessee, Sun Belt
Donovan McNabb, Syracuse, Big East
Drew Bledsoe, Washington St., Pac-10
Steve McNair, Alcorn St., SWAC (1-AA)
Chris Simms, Texas, Big 12
Kerry Collins, Penn. St., Big 10
David Carr, Fresno St., WAC
Trent Dilfer, Fresno St., WAC
Eli Manning, Ole Miss, SEC
Josh McCown, Sam Houston St., Southland
Michael Vick, Virginia Tech, ACC (Big East)
Brooks Bollinger, Wisconsin, Big 10
Joey Harrington, Oregon, Pac-10
Gus Frerotte, Tulsa, Conference USA (WAC)
Kyle Boller, California, Pac-10
Anthony Wright, South Carolina, SEC
J.P. Losman, Tulane, Conference USA
Charlie Frye, Auburn, SEC
David Garrard, East Carolina, Conference USA
Chad Pennington, Marshall, MAC
Tommy Maddox, UCLA, Pac-10
Billy Volek, Fresno St., WAC
Philip Rivers, N.C. State, ACC
Patrick Ramsey, Tulane, Conference USA
Brian Griese, Michigan, Big 10
Tim Rattay, Louisiana Tech, WAC
Alex Smith, Utah, Mountain West
Aaron Rodgers, California, Pac-10
Aaron Brooks, Virginia, ACC
Daunte Culpepper, Central Florida, Conference USA
Jeff Garcia, San Jose St., WAC
Rex Grossman, Florida, SEC
Kyle Orton, Purdue, Big 10
Matt Schaub, Virginia, ACC
Brett Favre, Southern Miss., Conference USA
Ken Dorsey, Miami, ACC (Big East)

Notice how only one QB on this list is from the Big 12 Conference (Chris Simms), while there are six that played in the WAC (David Carr, Trent Dilfer, Billy Volek, Jeff Garcia, Tim Rattay, and Gus Frerotte). While the Big 12 provides so much better competition for their QBs to compete in, those 12 schools have only produced one meaningful QB that is currently in the NFL, while the WAC conference has produced six QBs that have made an NFL career for themselves despite having such weaker competition in college. I just thought I'd throw that fact out there since there has been frequent mention in the last few weeks of strength/quality of competition in the Big 12 and how that give an excuse for inferior stats and/or gives an indication of future success.

 

[Huge]

I believe you left off a few names...

Sage Rosenfels
Koy Detmer
Kliff Kingsbury
Seneca Wallace

All from the Big-12. All are big time NFL QB's.

 

[AustinJB]

I just thought I'd throw that fact out there since there has been frequent mention in the last few weeks of strength/quality of competition in the Big 12 and how that give an excuse for inferior stats and/or gives an indication of future success.

You always try to twist people's words to make your point. I haven't heard anyone making excuses for INFERIOR stats. I've seen people mention that VY's stats are more impressive because he played against better competition, but not making excuses for inferior stats.

BTW.....Where do you see inferior stats?

Matt Leinart
Passing: 283att/431comp...3815yds...65.7comp%...8.85YPA...28TD/8INT...157.74rat.
Rushing: 51 att...36yds...0.7avg...6TD
Total: 3851yds...34TD

Vince Young
Passing: 212att/325comp...3036yds...65.2comp%...9.3YPA...26TD/10INT...163.95rat.
Rushing: 155att...1051yds...6.8avg...12TD
Total: 4087yds...38TD

I don't see anything inferior about VY's stats compared to Leinart's. In fact, you could argue just the opposite.

 

[MorKnolle]

You always try to twist people's words to make your point. I haven't heard anyone making excuses for INFERIOR stats. I've seen people mention that VY's stats are more impressive because he played against better competition, but not making excuses for inferior stats.

BTW.....Where do you see inferior stats?

Matt Leinart
Passing: 283att/431comp...3815yds...65.7comp%...8.85YPA...28TD/8INT...157.74rat.
Rushing: 51 att...36yds...0.7avg...6TD
Total: 3851yds...34TD

Vince Young
Passing: 212att/325comp...3036yds...65.2comp%...9.3YPA...26TD/10INT...163.95rat.
Rushing: 155att...1051yds...6.8avg...12TD
Total: 4087yds...38TD

I don't see anything inferior about VY's stats compared to Leinart's. In fact, you could argue just the opposite.

Leinart's passing stats are superior but I was referring to the comparison between Carr's stats and Young's stats that have been brought up several times and how Carr's apparently weren't legitimate to some people because he played against lesser competition. A few times Vince's stats have been compared to Vick, McNabb, etc. and how his stats are so superior to theirs so he must be a better player, then as a rebuttal other players have been brought up that had far superior passing stats to VY but they aren't legitmate players because they played worse competition. I'm not saying Vince won't be a good QB or anything by this, I'm just pointing out this angle that for all those people that claim that collegiate level of competition is a huge deciding factor in what QBs will be a success in the NFL, there are far more NFL QBs from the smaller conferences than some of the bigger ones, in this case the Big 12.