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what would make Bush a great RB in the NFL
- Thread starter Wolf
- Start date
well hes faster than any RB currently in the NFL, and faster than any since probably Bo Jackson.
his quickness is = or greater than any rb in the league. basically hes faster,quicker, and has better moves than pretty much every rb in the past decade.
some of his long runs will get neutralized at the next level because NFL has more solid tackling, which wont allow him into the secondary. he will have trouble hitting the corner all the time against a fast D, but if he does he's gonna get big yardage.
gotta wonder if the weight he puts on will slow him down at all. and if he ever gets injured he will become near useless because his game is so relient on speed.
his quickness is = or greater than any rb in the league. basically hes faster,quicker, and has better moves than pretty much every rb in the past decade.
some of his long runs will get neutralized at the next level because NFL has more solid tackling, which wont allow him into the secondary. he will have trouble hitting the corner all the time against a fast D, but if he does he's gonna get big yardage.
gotta wonder if the weight he puts on will slow him down at all. and if he ever gets injured he will become near useless because his game is so relient on speed.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Wolf said:
To answer the question of what would make RB a great Back at the next level, I think the answer would be a great coach that could design a great offensive plan to maximize all his talents, such as giving him about 15 to 20 touches a game and about 6 or 7 rec. a game.
What separates him from the next level is his freakish speed and explosiveness and cutting ability, he can make ankle breaking cuts at full speed and he has one of the fastest first steps I've ever seen and he has a crazy work ethic and trains like the all time greats
What gets neutralized at the next level is his 8 ypc avg. I think he can still make game breaking plays but they will definetly become a lot less frequent.
Also he has to come in and prove the doubters wrong that he doesn't have the size or the ability to run between the tackles, if he can do that then he'll be a great back.
LBC_Justin
Rookie
Great post.stevo3883 said:
Totally agree.
LBC_Justin
Rookie
Totally agree.Carr Bomb said:
If he is a super star he will average slightly over 5.5 yards per carry.
Coach C.
Veteran
Reggie Bush does not come into the league as the fastest running back. He may be the fastest starter perhaps, but that might be a stretch. Trung Canidate the former St. Louis Ram would dust Reggie Bush and that is not a know against Bush but a praise to the pure speed that is Canidate. Reggie is likely as fast as a guy like Sultan MCollough.
I dont think running between the tackles will be an issue with Bush. Obviously he isnt going to be able to break tackles and overpower defensive linemen.. but if he has a hole..with his speed he should be able to hit it and get great yardage.
I think 5 yards per carry, on average, would be in-freakin-credible... if he could maintain that kind of production he would be considered the best RB in NFL history. I think a more likely estimate of a "great RB"..is one that can average more than 4 yards per carry consistently.
I think Bush is the kind of back that can do that.. no doubt in my mind.
I think 5 yards per carry, on average, would be in-freakin-credible... if he could maintain that kind of production he would be considered the best RB in NFL history. I think a more likely estimate of a "great RB"..is one that can average more than 4 yards per carry consistently.
I think Bush is the kind of back that can do that.. no doubt in my mind.
LikeABoss
Rookie
CITY CAT said:
Clinton Portis averaged 5.5 yards per carry while rushing for over 1,500 yards off of an average of 250 carries when he played in Kubiak's offense in Denver. He was used less in the rushing game in Denver and was more productive than he is now in Washington.
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302215
Rushing for 1,000 yards a season is nothing and is almost a given in today's NFL, but rushing for over 1,500 yards while averaging over 4.5 yards per carry really shows that you have an elite back.
Long-Spurs-Texan
Waterboy
It's gonna be an ugly scene when he tries that diving through the air stuff in the NFL. That's a quick way to get your career ended (all 6 years of it).
Long-Spurs-Texan
Waterboy
LikeABoss said:
No, it shows you have an elite system. Do you think Portis would have done that here, or in New Orleans, how about Arizona?
Big B Texan Fan
Veteran
Bush won't have those #'s in the NFLLikeABoss said:
MorKnolle
All Pro
There are two aspects of this that people have posted on: 1) What about Bush gives him the potential to be an elite RB in the NFL? and 2) What else does Bush require in order to become this elite RB? Here's my attempted take on both those parts (please pardon the length, but this is all the info I could think about it, so if you want my opinion on him, here it is, and FYI this is a mixture of my opinion and my couple scout friends' opinions).
1) POSITIVES: Bush has amazing speed. I've seen him reported at anywhere between a 4.28 and 4.40 40 time. 4.40 isn't spectacular, but it's still pretty fast for a RB, while 4.28 is pretty amazing, there aren't many guys in the NFL that are that fast. I think he's somewhere in the middle of those, either way he has great speed for a RB. He also has great quickness and agility, he can change directions very quickly and get going quickly (Mathis would beat him in a 100 yard race but when that speed is put on the field Bush is quicker and much more fluid in his movements than Mathis is). Bush also has amazing balance to keep him going when making moves or when getting hit and uses his speed well (in Madden terms for those of you that think that way, he will probably have 95-96 speed, 92-94 agility, and 93-95 acceleration, so a taller, thinner Clinton Portis from that standpoint). He can also line up at WR, he has the speed and size to be a good WR, I don't know enough about his route running or how good his hands are for an NFL WR, but he would be ok at that and can definitely line up at WR on some plays and is a definite threat there. Bush is a more solid RB prospect than other past guys with his speed, and some rate Bush as the "highest rated draft prospect in XX years."
NEGATIVES: Bush's size is not ideal. He's a little taller and lighter than your prototypical NFL RB. His height gives him an advantage when receiving the ball downfield but gives him a disadvantage when running with the ball (smaller targets are harder to get a solid hit on and are easier to hide behind/between a OLinemen while he's picking his hole to run thru). He has not shown a consistent ability to run between the tackles, this could be either because he can't do it, or because in college he can get away with outrunning everyone (to compare it to a recent argument about Vince not running a pro-style offense, it doesn't necessarily mean that he [they] can't do it, it's just that he was [they were] put in a different position to maximize his abilities in a college football game, all we know about either of them to this point is that they don't have much experience doing that). He hasn't carried the whole workload of his offense, which means we don't know if he can handle a heavier workload, but at the same time he has "less wear on his tires" as some people have pointed out so he might be able to last longer because of it (Cadillac Williams shared the workload in college and he had a pretty successful rookie season, he wore out at the beginning after 88 carries in his first 3 games, but who wouldn't get worn out from that? After that they kept his carries under 22 a game except for one time and he was fine).
2) For Bush to be able to become a dominant RB in the NFL, he will need a couple things. He will need to come to a team with an innovative offensive coach that will be able to use his unique abilities efficiently (Kubiak?). He will probably need to have another good RB that can shoulder a decent amount of the running load (we have one in Domanick Davis) so he is not expected to run the ball 25-35 times a game in those games that the team needs to run a lot and is not required to be our primary power/short-yardage runner. It would help if he goes to a team with a good #1 WR so he can be split out wide as a #2 option or in the slot and take attention away from the #1 guy but not be the main focus himself. He will need to have a decent OLine (we don't currently have that, but hopefully we can fix that up in the draft/FA and it will improve with better coaching and a better system, but we did have decent run blocking most of the year).
To me, Bush reminds me a lot of Steve Smith, the WR for the Panthers. I think if Bush can refine his route running he could be a Steve Smith-type threat at WR when he lines up wide (it will take some work to get his hands that good, but he won't be the only receiving threat like Smith was this year for the Panthers). This would take a lot of attention off of Andre Johnson and give Carr another viable receiving option downfield, and allow Domanick Davis to still get his 15 carreis a game. Bush can still be put in the backfield on many plays, get 10-15 carries a game as a speedier option, and we could run a couple reverses to him when he's lined up wide (the same thing we kept doing with Gaffney last year, only we have a faster guy doing it and we won't try it 4 times a game). He will take some pressure off of Andre as being our only receiving threat (a good TE will help too), he will take some pressure off of Domanick Davis as being a different type of RB to throw in the mix, he will give Carr another option in the offense and be that extra "home run threat" that many people have been wanting. Kubiak has a history of not picking QBs and RBs high in the draft (at least Denver didn't when he was there, he wasn't necessarily in charge of those picks). Kubiak has a reputation for improving QB's play and helping turn their careers around and he has a habit of creating dominant rushing games (#1 rushing and scoring offense over the last 11 years, but without having a 1st round guy in there), so whatever impications you think that gives on what we'll do in the draft. I honestly think Bush would be a tantalizing option for Kubiak with the #1 pick and an interesting, unique prospect that could be used in numerous ways on the offense. He is definitely a viable option at the #1 pick, although I would still prefer to see us trade down and address our defense and OLine first (and I personally think Kubiak's gut inclination will be in this direction, but that's just my speculation).
1) POSITIVES: Bush has amazing speed. I've seen him reported at anywhere between a 4.28 and 4.40 40 time. 4.40 isn't spectacular, but it's still pretty fast for a RB, while 4.28 is pretty amazing, there aren't many guys in the NFL that are that fast. I think he's somewhere in the middle of those, either way he has great speed for a RB. He also has great quickness and agility, he can change directions very quickly and get going quickly (Mathis would beat him in a 100 yard race but when that speed is put on the field Bush is quicker and much more fluid in his movements than Mathis is). Bush also has amazing balance to keep him going when making moves or when getting hit and uses his speed well (in Madden terms for those of you that think that way, he will probably have 95-96 speed, 92-94 agility, and 93-95 acceleration, so a taller, thinner Clinton Portis from that standpoint). He can also line up at WR, he has the speed and size to be a good WR, I don't know enough about his route running or how good his hands are for an NFL WR, but he would be ok at that and can definitely line up at WR on some plays and is a definite threat there. Bush is a more solid RB prospect than other past guys with his speed, and some rate Bush as the "highest rated draft prospect in XX years."
NEGATIVES: Bush's size is not ideal. He's a little taller and lighter than your prototypical NFL RB. His height gives him an advantage when receiving the ball downfield but gives him a disadvantage when running with the ball (smaller targets are harder to get a solid hit on and are easier to hide behind/between a OLinemen while he's picking his hole to run thru). He has not shown a consistent ability to run between the tackles, this could be either because he can't do it, or because in college he can get away with outrunning everyone (to compare it to a recent argument about Vince not running a pro-style offense, it doesn't necessarily mean that he [they] can't do it, it's just that he was [they were] put in a different position to maximize his abilities in a college football game, all we know about either of them to this point is that they don't have much experience doing that). He hasn't carried the whole workload of his offense, which means we don't know if he can handle a heavier workload, but at the same time he has "less wear on his tires" as some people have pointed out so he might be able to last longer because of it (Cadillac Williams shared the workload in college and he had a pretty successful rookie season, he wore out at the beginning after 88 carries in his first 3 games, but who wouldn't get worn out from that? After that they kept his carries under 22 a game except for one time and he was fine).
2) For Bush to be able to become a dominant RB in the NFL, he will need a couple things. He will need to come to a team with an innovative offensive coach that will be able to use his unique abilities efficiently (Kubiak?). He will probably need to have another good RB that can shoulder a decent amount of the running load (we have one in Domanick Davis) so he is not expected to run the ball 25-35 times a game in those games that the team needs to run a lot and is not required to be our primary power/short-yardage runner. It would help if he goes to a team with a good #1 WR so he can be split out wide as a #2 option or in the slot and take attention away from the #1 guy but not be the main focus himself. He will need to have a decent OLine (we don't currently have that, but hopefully we can fix that up in the draft/FA and it will improve with better coaching and a better system, but we did have decent run blocking most of the year).
To me, Bush reminds me a lot of Steve Smith, the WR for the Panthers. I think if Bush can refine his route running he could be a Steve Smith-type threat at WR when he lines up wide (it will take some work to get his hands that good, but he won't be the only receiving threat like Smith was this year for the Panthers). This would take a lot of attention off of Andre Johnson and give Carr another viable receiving option downfield, and allow Domanick Davis to still get his 15 carreis a game. Bush can still be put in the backfield on many plays, get 10-15 carries a game as a speedier option, and we could run a couple reverses to him when he's lined up wide (the same thing we kept doing with Gaffney last year, only we have a faster guy doing it and we won't try it 4 times a game). He will take some pressure off of Andre as being our only receiving threat (a good TE will help too), he will take some pressure off of Domanick Davis as being a different type of RB to throw in the mix, he will give Carr another option in the offense and be that extra "home run threat" that many people have been wanting. Kubiak has a history of not picking QBs and RBs high in the draft (at least Denver didn't when he was there, he wasn't necessarily in charge of those picks). Kubiak has a reputation for improving QB's play and helping turn their careers around and he has a habit of creating dominant rushing games (#1 rushing and scoring offense over the last 11 years, but without having a 1st round guy in there), so whatever impications you think that gives on what we'll do in the draft. I honestly think Bush would be a tantalizing option for Kubiak with the #1 pick and an interesting, unique prospect that could be used in numerous ways on the offense. He is definitely a viable option at the #1 pick, although I would still prefer to see us trade down and address our defense and OLine first (and I personally think Kubiak's gut inclination will be in this direction, but that's just my speculation).
LikeABoss
Rookie
Long-Spurs-Texan said:
How in the hell am I'm supposed to know how this man would do on these got damn teams? WTF, you think I can see into the future or something? Don't ever ask me no stupid *** question like this ever again.
In 2 seasons Portis just rushed for 1,300 and 1,500 yards in Washington after the fact that he just had 2 1,500 yards rushing seasons in Denver, and you telling me it's not him it's the system
Man take that delusional B.S. you typing somewhere else cause I ain't trying to read nothing you got to say to me.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
LikeABoss said:In 2 seasons Portis just rushed for 1,300 and 1,500 yards in Washington after the fact that he just had 2 1,500 yards rushing seasons in Denver, and you telling me it's not him it's the system
It's both. Portis had 2 1500 yd seasons in Denver at 5.5 yds per carry. His 1300 yd and 1500 yd seasons in Washington have been at 3.8 and 4.3 yards per carry. Excellent RB with very different ways of getting the same result--yup the system is different, not responsible for him being excellent, but different.
LikeABoss
Rookie
infantrycak said:
I'll take the 1,500 yard, 5.5 yds per carry, on lesser carries Denver days over the grind it out, 30-35 attempt Washington days. Less carries=less wear and tear, which would also help prevent injuries. Clinton even had to put on pounds so his body could handle that kind of workload in Washington
I tell you what though, Clinton should be very thankful for having Santana Moss on his team. Because of it wasn't for Moss, he would be back to seeing those 8-9 man fronts he did when he first got to Washington.
michaelm
vox nihili
I'm not sure how this will apply to the YPC issue, but here it is for those who are interested.
Tatum Bell - 5.3 ypc
Tiki Barber - 5.2 ypc
Larry Johnson - 5.2 ypc
Shaun Alexander 5.1 ypc
Warrick Dunn 5.1 ypc
There are 6 other players who had 50+ carries and averaged at least 5.0 ypc FWIW. Quite a few averaged even more than 5.0ypc, but had less than 50 carries.
I don't know why i chose 50 carries as the delineation point... I would think a player would have to average 5.0+ for a few hundred carries to really apply to this subject.
Tatum Bell - 5.3 ypc
Tiki Barber - 5.2 ypc
Larry Johnson - 5.2 ypc
Shaun Alexander 5.1 ypc
Warrick Dunn 5.1 ypc
There are 6 other players who had 50+ carries and averaged at least 5.0 ypc FWIW. Quite a few averaged even more than 5.0ypc, but had less than 50 carries.
I don't know why i chose 50 carries as the delineation point... I would think a player would have to average 5.0+ for a few hundred carries to really apply to this subject.
Youngstown Colt
Rookie
What will make him a great back in the NFL?
Getting drafted.
And maybe 5-10 pounds (to help some sleep better at night)
Getting drafted.
And maybe 5-10 pounds (to help some sleep better at night)
Long-Spurs-Texan
Waterboy
LikeABoss said:How in the hell am I'm supposed to know how this man would do on these got damn teams? WTF, you think I can see into the future or something? Don't ever ask me no stupid *** question like this ever again.
In 2 seasons Portis just rushed for 1,300 and 1,500 yards in Washington after the fact that he just had 2 1,500 yards rushing seasons in Denver, and you telling me it's not him it's the system
Man take that delusional B.S. you typing somewhere else cause I ain't trying to read nothing you got to say to me.
I asked did you "think". I didn't ask if you "knew". Obviously, you don't think. It's also painfully clear that you "ain't trying to read nothing" either.
dcarey20
Waterboy
CITY CAT said:
clinton portis did it with denver 2 years in a row, but it was in the denver running system, still its impressive.
alexander averaged 5.1 this year
larry johnson averaged 5.2
marshall faulk 5.3 ypc 2-3 years ago
jamal lewis 5.3 ypc during 2000 yard season
reggie is considered by many to be more talented then all of those guys.
i dont think that he will average 5.5 his rookie year, but he has the ability to do what faulk did later in his career
i would say he averages 4.6-4.8 in his rookie season. he will probably get about 200-215 carries
LikeABoss
Rookie
Long-Spurs-Texan said:
Look, i'm not with this personal attack, back and forth bull****. I don't know you and you don't know me. It's quite obvious that you got some little personal problem with me posting on this board for whatever reason, but I really could care less. But how bout you do me and you both a big favor and don't ever address me on this board again. Add me to your ignore list or whatever, just don't address me ever again on this board capeesh?
Long-Spurs-Texan
Waterboy
LikeABoss said:
Look, i'm not with this personal attack, back and forth bull****. I don't know you and you don't know me. It's quite obvious that you got some little personal problem with me posting on this board for whatever reason, but I really could care less. But how bout you do me and you both a big favor and don't ever address me on this board again. Add me to your ignore list or whatever, just don't address me ever again on this board capeesh?
There's nothing personal on my end. You were the one who completely overreacted when I respectfully disagreed with with your take on Portis. As far as any obvious ill will from me to you, I haven't shown any other than my last response to your tantrum. If you can't be disagreed with, do everyone a favor & pull the plug on your internet.