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What do you think of Robert Saleh as a HC?

Many of us would have liked Robert Saleh to have been selected as our HC back in the day. He had a lot of issues to navigate with the NYJets, they're extremely dysfunctional & have been for a while. Similar to the Texans. This isn't a "would've, could've, should've" thread, but more of a do you think you were wrong about Saleh thread. Do you think he will/should get a second opportunity, which is rare for guys who don't excel at their first stop.

Personally, I don't know. Did I think too much of him to begin with, that's my question. The 49ers defense was elite & I thought he had a lot to do with it. There was elite talent there on the line. Did they make him look better than he was?
 
thunderkyss said:
Personally, I don't know. Did I think too much of him to begin with, that's my question. The 49ers defense was elite & I thought he had a lot to do with it. There was elite talent there on the line. Did they make him look better than he was?
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Probably, but I think he's a good HC saddled with the NY media and suffering from no QB. Jets are a good team that just can't get out of their own way. The defense is only allowing 19.1 ppg but the offense is only scoring 16ppg. They've had some bad luck with injuries and Saleh's choice of coaches wasn't great.
 
TheRealJoker said:
Sad as it is, I can only think of Bill O’brien as a HC who consistently won division titles with subpar QBs…
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I think losing Rodgers 4 snaps into the season is why they’re stinking it up this season. Hackett dang near ruined one Wilson last season (a SB winning one), so there’s no way the Jets Wilson was ever going to have a chance in this offense. The stats from the Broncos last season and the Jets this season are ridiculously similar.
Saleh’s defense is balling out but they get gassed because the offense can’t sustain drives.
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DocBar said:
I think losing Rodgers 4 snaps into the season is why they’re stinking it up this season. Hackett dang near ruined one Wilson last season (a SB winning one), so there’s no way the Jets Wilson was ever going to have a chance in this offense. The stats from the Broncos last season and the Jets this season are ridiculously similar.
Saleh’s defense is balling out but they get gassed because the offense can’t sustain drives.
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Makes you wonder if Hackett was hired with the sole intention on them trading for Rodgers. Hackett hired Jan 2023 and Rodgers trade happens April 2023 but rumors were much earlier.
 
DocBar said:
I think losing Rodgers 4 snaps into the season is why they’re stinking it up this season
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I understand QB is a huge piece of the puzzle, but the question isn't about this season it's about his tenure. Remember some wanted him to be the Texans coach.

Do you think they're on the right track? If you're a Jets fan would you be upset if ownership is looking for a new HC this offseason?
 
JB said:
Probably, but I think he's a good HC saddled with the NY media and suffering from no QB. Jets are a good team that just can't get out of their own way. The defense is only allowing 19.1 ppg but the offense is only scoring 16ppg. They've had some bad luck with injuries and Saleh's choice of coaches wasn't great.
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This
 
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Porky said:
The Jets couldn’t have cared less on that Hail Mary int. They looked like they were loafing and waiting for a teammate to make a play. I think their spirit is broken on offense and they are mailing it in.
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I'm going to say this is evidence of bad coaching, regardless how good/bad the QB is. I know, it's a lot easier to g.a.f. when you've got a QB you believe in. But the coach has got to find a way to get his players motivated on every snap. Those bums are getting paid purtdam good to play the game.
 
What if the Jets organization has thrown the towel in on 2023?

This would definitely give Saleh a mulligan, while the team may have decided to improve their 2024 team by being in a better position to select stronger projected pieces via the draft.
 
thunderkyss said:
I understand QB is a huge piece of the puzzle, but the question isn't about this season it's about his tenure. Remember some wanted him to be the Texans coach.

Do you think they're on the right track? If you're a Jets fan would you be upset if ownership is looking for a new HC this offseason?
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The Jets are all in on Rodgers in 23 and 24. I doubt they make any changes after this season.
 
DocBar said:
The Jets are all in on Rodgers in 23 and 24. I doubt they make any changes after this season.
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Agreed. This was to be more of a thought experiment. The Jets were just an example. I figured most would provide positive examples of Saleh being a good coach on a bad team since most of us like Saleh, but so far... that's all we got, we like Saleh.

I thought penalties per game would be an indicator but without a deep dive into the types of penalties that would put the Texans in the same category.

The lack of effort on that 99 yard pick six was interesting but was not indicative of the effort throughout the game.
 
DocBar said:
I think losing Rodgers 4 snaps into the season is why they’re stinking it up this season. Hackett dang near ruined one Wilson last season (a SB winning one), so there’s no way the Jets Wilson was ever going to have a chance in this offense.
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I was never that high on Zach Wilson. But the Jets have done him no favors since he's been there. Once Rodgers went down, the OC should have remodeled the offense to his strengths. RPOs and short passes to the playmakers. Getting him on the move with bootlegs. Full protection play action deep to take advantage of his arm. Naw, we'll just run the same thing as Rodgers runs. Shouldn't be a problem.
 
Earl34 said:
See Mike Tomlin and Kenny Pickett? Until this week, Tomlin was too loyal to his OC. Yet with a bad OC and QB, they are 6-4 this season and 13-9 since last year with a bad QB.
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Do y'all think that Pittsburgh has been a contender to win a SB in the last 5-7 years?
 
Errant Hothy said:
I’m not sure you can judge the value of an OC when they have an all time QB running the show. See every OC that left NE during the Brady era.
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Agreed,

Hackett proved his offense is bad without a QB like Rodgers running it. Although not great, look at how Payton's offense looks this year with Wilson compared to Hackett's last year.
 
steelbtexan said:
Do y'all think that Pittsburgh has been a contender to win a SB in the last 5-7 years?
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How does this come out of the conversation we're having?

They're not going to be a contender without a QB, they haven't had that in the last 5 years. Has he put a good product on the field given what he's got?

I don't think any of his teams have under-achieved since he's been there. I believe if he had a SB roster they'd be SB contenders.
 
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thunderkyss said:
How does this come out of the conversation we're having?

They're not going to be a contender without a QB, they haven't had that in the last 5 years. Has he put a good product on the field given what he's got?

I don't think any of his teams have under-achieved since he's been there. I believe if he had a SB roster they'd be SB contenders.
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They probably won't be a contender until they bottom out like the Texans did. The point is they most likely will be like the Texans were with Schaub.

So does good coaching really help the overall cause?
 
steelbtexan said:
They probably won't be a contender until they bottom out like the Texans did. The point is they most likely will be like the Texans were with Schaub.
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Or they'll be like the Chargers, Bengals, & Bill's with their "good" QBs & their mediocre coaches. Or the Chiefs before Mahomes.

probably
 
thunderkyss said:
Or they'll be like the Chargers, Bengals, & Bill's with their "good" QBs & their mediocre coaches. Or the Chiefs before Mahomes.

probably
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I think the QB's you listed are better than good. Particularly Burrow. Allen has taken a step back, but he got the money and there's no money left to pay the OL and secondary.
 
steelbtexan said:
I think the QB's you listed are better than good. Particularly Burrow. Allen has taken a step back, but he got the money and there's no money left to pay the OL and secondary.
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Right, that's the opposite situation than this discussion. Top QBs mediocre coach & I'm only saying this mediocre coach for this conversation to provide context. It's not my position that they are mediocre coaches or will all of a sudden become great coaches if they win it all this year.
 
steelbtexan said:
They probably won't be a contender until they bottom out like the Texans did. The point is they most likely will be like the Texans were with Schaub.

So does good coaching really help the overall cause?
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Good coaching does help the overall cause, but you still need talent. How many times were the 80s Oilers and Chargers some of the most talented teams in the NFL and combined they didn't even make one SB appearance.

It will always be about the Jimmys and Joes, but you need a HC to establish the culture, accountability and the Xs and Os. With these players making so much money, it's easy for them to start making business decisions when the going get tough or to play selfish ball.

IMHO. I think when we discuss what makes a good HC, we evaluate them in a silo instead of the talent on their team. Maybe it's easier thinking a great QB can win 5 to 8 games and great coaching, leadership, in-game decisions can win 3-5 games. However, you still need the defense and special teams to contribute or flat out win 2 to 4 games on their own and some luck.
 
Earl34 said:
Good coaching does help the overall cause, but you still need talent. How many times were the 80s Oilers and Chargers some of the most talented teams in the NFL and combined they didn't even make one SB appearance.

It will always be about the Jimmys and Joes, but you need a HC to establish the culture, accountability and the Xs and Os. With these players making so much money, it's easy for them to start making business decisions when the going get tough or to play selfish ball.

IMHO. I think when we discuss what makes a good HC, we evaluate them in a silo instead of the talent on their team. Maybe it's easier thinking a great QB can win 5 to 8 games and great coaching, leadership, in-game decisions can win 3-5 games. However, you still need the defense and special teams to contribute or flat out win 2 to 4 games on their own and some luck.
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Totally Agree

However a talented team without a QB is never going to win a championship. That's why teams trade up for QB's or get lucky that a QB falls to them like the Packers/ Rodgers, Steelers/Ben, Eagles/Hurts etc...
 
steelbtexan said:
Totally Agree

However a talented team without a QB is never going to win a championship. That's why teams trade up for QB's or get lucky that a QB falls to them like the Packers/ Rodgers, Steelers/Ben, Eagles/Hurts etc...
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Even in this age where offenses get all of the breaks, I still think coaching, a great defense, special teams and luck can still win a SB with average QB play. Peyton Manning made timely plays however, I don't think he was the driving force that won Super Bowls for the Colts and especially with the Broncos.

Joe Flacco got on a hot streak, Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson rode on the coat tails of great defenses. Shoot, your boy Garoppolo led his team to a NFCCG win by completing 6 passes for 77 yards and the 49ers won that game by 17 points. Exactly how did he contribute to that win with 8 passes?

Having that QB doesn't mean you're guaranteed to win a championship. Look at Sean Payton and Drew Brees being together for 15 years only winning one SB win or Rodgers only winning one. My point is that this is the ultimate team sport. Having a good QB helps, but when a HC can call Stagger Lee or go into a prevent defense with a 3-point lead or the kicker misses a FG, there is nothing a great QB can do to overcome bad coaching, defense or special teams. How many SB victories does Brady have because Vinatari made those FGs? What happen if he missed them?
 
steelbtexan said:
Totally Agree

However a talented team without a QB is never going to win a championship. That's why teams trade up for QB's or get lucky that a QB falls to them like the Packers/ Rodgers, Steelers/Ben, Eagles/Hurts etc...
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So for the purpose of this conversation how do you know you have a good coach & need to find your QB, or do you not even critique your coach until you get a QB?
 
thunderkyss said:
So for the purpose of this conversation how do you know you have a good coach & need to find your QB, or do you not even critique your coach until you get a QB?
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You can critique your HC by things like, are they prepared to play. Do they play hard for the HC. Does there appear to be long term vision/plan. Does the HC understand proper use of timeouts/field position/down and distance etc... But dont expect consistent high level of play until the HC gets his QB.
 
steelbtexan said:
But dont expect consistent high level of play until the HC gets his QB.
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Understood. Point conceded. You're right.
steelbtexan said:
You can critique your HC by things like, are they prepared to play. Do they play hard for the HC. Does there appear to be long term vision/plan. Does the HC understand proper use of timeouts/field position/down and distance etc...
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Is this what we're seeing with the New York Jets? Chargers? Saints? Buccaneers?
 
Earl34 said:
Even in this age where offenses get all of the breaks, I still think coaching, a great defense, special teams and luck can still win a SB with average QB play. Peyton Manning made timely plays however, I don't think he was the driving force that won Super Bowls for the Colts and especially with the Broncos.

Joe Flacco got on a hot streak, Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson rode on the coat tails of great defenses. Shoot, your boy Garoppolo led his team to a NFCCG win by completing 6 passes for 77 yards and the 49ers won that game by 17 points. Exactly how did he contribute to that win with 8 passes?

Having that QB doesn't mean you're guaranteed to win a championship. Look at Sean Payton and Drew Brees being together for 15 years only winning one SB win or Rodgers only winning one. My point is that this is the ultimate team sport. Having a good QB helps, but when a HC can call Stagger Lee or go into a prevent defense with a 3-point lead or the kicker misses a FG, there is nothing a great QB can do to overcome bad coaching, defense or special teams. How many SB victories does Brady have because Vinatari made those FGs? What happen if he missed them?
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I’ve mentioned on several occasions that you can win in an individual season with all the things you mentioned, but to be a contender year in and year out, you need a good QB.

That doesn’t guarantee you’re going to and winning SBs of course, but it does always put you in contention.

We see in the regular season what can happen in a single game, Arizona thoroughly beating Dallas, winless Carolina over Houston, etc. The playoffs are that much harder because all of those teams are supposed to be the best. That’s why Rodgers only went to 1 SB. Brees just 1. But those teams were always in the mix.

When the Jets went to consecutive AFCC games with Butt Fumble at QB, those teams were built like you’re talking about, but that didn’t last very long, because in this day and age of free agency and sky rocketing salaries, it’s hard to keep a team like that together.

So yeah, you can win with a mediocre QB in any given season but you won’t be consistent contenders on a yearly basis that way. You’ve got to have a QB to do that.
 
Speedy said:
I’ve mentioned on several occasions that you can win in an individual season with all the things you mentioned, but to be a contender year in and year out, you need a good QB.

That doesn’t guarantee you’re going to and winning SBs of course, but it does always put you in contention.

We see in the regular season what can happen in a single game, Arizona thoroughly beating Dallas, winless Carolina over Houston, etc. The playoffs are that much harder because all of those teams are supposed to be the best. That’s why Rodgers only went to 1 SB. Brees just 1. But those teams were always in the mix.

When the Jets went to consecutive AFCC games with Butt Fumble at QB, those teams were built like you’re talking about, but that didn’t last very long, because in this day and age of free agency and sky rocketing salaries, it’s hard to keep a team like that together.

So yeah, you can win with a mediocre QB in any given season but you won’t be consistent contenders on a yearly basis that way. You’ve got to have a QB to do that.
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I will make a case that after 7 seasons the you should find a new QB because your chances to win a SB are very low, due to cap restrictions.
 
Speedy said:
So yeah, you can win with a mediocre QB in any given season but you won’t be consistent contenders on a yearly basis that way. You’ve got to have a QB to do that.
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Great post.

But please, let's bring this conversation back to good coach with a bad team or bad team with a good coach. How do you isolate the quality of coaching from the talent pool?
 
thunderkyss said:
Great post.

But please, let's bring this conversation back to good coach with a bad team or bad team with a good coach. How do you isolate the quality of coaching from the talent pool?
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If you think you have a good coach on the bad team, ask yourself these questions,
  1. Does his team play tough, smart, and disciplined on Sundays?
  2. Does it feel like his team is overachieving or underachieving? (See Tomlin and his 7-4 Steelers with Pickett)
  3. How is his clock management or how does he manage a game? (See Hackett in Denver)
  4. Does it seem like he has control of his locker room and his players buy into his philosophy?
 
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