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Week 17: Remind Them They're the Oilers

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
How bout all those underneath routes he passes up in favor of those deeper routes ...
And yet he’s in the top three with the short passes. Why are you so stuck on this minute aspect of his game. Did he miss his receiver completely or the pass was completed? Did the protection breakdown before he could recognize his hot read? Or are you specifically keyed in on just Watson looking for any flaws? That way you could quickly come on here and beat that dead horse to death. :deadhorse
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Without knowing the progressions, you are being disingenuous to push the "Watson doesn't throw underneath" narrative. I guess in your opinion, on this play, he should have thrown the underneath passes on 3rd and long instead of the tougher, longer pass to Coutee.

He should’ve taken the short route and trust his receiver will make a few defenders miss. Lol
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Those are fairly respectable stats .... equating to ~1 sacks in an entire games worth of snaps under 3 seconds.
Pretty terrible after that 3 second mark.
When you tallied those numbers, did you by chance see where Watson ranked in sub 3 second & pro 2 second snaps?

Not the sacks... but you said 46% of his snaps were more than 3 seconds, is that high? Low? About right?
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Unlike a lot of other people, I put 75-80% of bad offensive line play on the coaching, especially if the line is giving up tons of pressure through the interior. It is an easily correctable issue with proper coaching and game planning though.
But we have no idea what they're being told to do... we're just laymen.
 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
That's a fairly typical number for just about any OL .... Its rare that an OL will go a complete game without a blown assignment or two.



That's not a personal attack by any means. (@Double Barrel)

Your narrative is false , what should I call it ?



I do not ignore any of the above. I'm just stating that they aren't as atrocious as you say they are based upon watching 1 or maybe 2 lowlights per game. They are , on the vast majority of snaps serviceable as a pass blocking unit.
Thru 15 games (I haven't done done the math since the last game) - when Watson gets the ball out in under 3 seconds they have given up a sack once every 45 plays and one sack every 5.9 plays when he held the ball longer than 3 seconds.

Those are fairly respectable stats .... equating to ~1 sacks in an entire games worth of snaps under 3 seconds.
Pretty terrible after that 3 second mark.

They couldn't block you and me when it comes to run blocking.
Wait, wait, wait. You're telling us not to worry about the 1 or 2 lowlights per game from the OL, that a vast majority of their snaps are serviceable, yet 70% this board, or more, is about the 1 or 2 lowlights per game from Watson that you and the haterade crew spew? Interesting.
 

Earl34

All Pro
Wait, wait, wait. You're telling us not to worry about the 1 or 2 lowlights per game from the OL, that a vast majority of their snaps are serviceable, yet 70% this board, or more, is about the 1 or 2 lowlights per game from Watson that you and the haterade crew spew? Interesting.
You noticed that? A missed block that kills drives or puts you in unfavorable down and distances should be ignored. It's an anomaly. If the OL is serviceable, I wonder why everyone complains about Devlin?
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
You noticed that? A missed block that kills drives or puts you in unfavorable down and distances should be ignored. It's an anomaly. If the OL is serviceable, I wonder why everyone complains about Devlin?
The biggest part of it all, you’re getting your franchise quarterback killed.
 

ClemsonTexan

Waterboy
And yet he’s in the top three with the short passes. Why are you so stuck on this minute aspect of his game. Did he miss his receiver completely or the pass was completed? Did the protection breakdown before he could recognize his hot read? Or are you specifically keyed in on just Watson looking for any flaws? That way you could quickly come on here and beat that dead horse to death. :deadhorse
Yeah, I don't get his fixation on this either. Nearly all plays will have a short/underneath route and sometimes those short/underneath routes are open at the same time that a longer route is open. But Corrosion seems convinced that shorter routes are nearly always the best option and/or that Watson is somehow missing easier completions despite presenting no evidence to that effect. The fact is that Watson is both throwing longer passes AND completing them hence the 70.1%!!! completion rate.

He acts as if these multi-million dollar organizations don't rely on analytics that tell them what the high value throws/plays are. If Corrosion were a basketball coach or GM, he would chastise Steph Curry for shooting an open 3-pointer when he could have dribbled several feet inside of the line and hit a shorter, easier shot.

The entire NFL is throwing longer passes. It's not just Watson/Texans. Brady averaged 9.1 intended air yards per attempt this season. Mahomes and Wilson averaged 9.1 and 9.0 yards per attempt in 2018, respectively. Rodgers averaged 8.8 intended air yards per attempt in 2018 and 2019. Wilson averaged a whopping 9.4 intended air yards per attempt in 2019. The only elite QBs who haven't consistently aired it out since the NFL started tracking this stat are Brady and Brees who are both over the age of 40. This could be function of learning the game during a different era with different philosophies, declining arm strength, or both.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Yeah, I don't get his fixation on this either. Nearly all plays will have a short/underneath route and sometimes those short/underneath routes are open at the same time that a longer route is open. But Corrosion seems convinced that shorter routes are nearly always the best option and/or that Watson is somehow missing easier completions despite presenting no evidence to that effect. The fact is that Watson is both throwing longer passes AND completing them hence the 70.1%!!! completion rate.

He acts as if these multi-million dollar organizations don't rely on analytics that tell them what the high value throws/plays are. If Corrosion were a basketball coach or GM, he would chastise Steph Curry for shooting an open 3-pointer when he could have dribbled several feet inside of the line and hit a shorter, easier shot.

The entire NFL is throwing longer passes. It's not just Watson/Texans. Brady averaged 9.1 intended air yards per attempt this season. Mahomes and Wilson averaged 9.1 and 9.0 yards per attempt in 2018, respectively. Rodgers averaged 8.8 intended air yards per attempt in 2018 and 2019. Wilson averaged a whopping 9.4 intended air yards per attempt in 2019. The only elite QBs who haven't consistently aired it out since the NFL started tracking this stat are Brady and Brees who are both over the age of 40. This could be function of learning the game during a different era with different philosophies, declining arm strength, or both.
I believe Corrosion is saying he wants DW4 to get rid of the ball instead of putting the team in bad down/distance situations that cause them to not being able to sustain drives and this is what is keeping a bad defense on the field more than they should be.

Example: look no further than 51-7. Bottom line is making 2-3 long scoring plays and not being able to sustain drives, this keeping the defense on the field to long will never be a winning formula.

BTW, the formula Brady/Brees use has their teams in contention for championship's every year. I kinda like that.
 

ClemsonTexan

Waterboy
I believe Corrosion is saying he wants DW4 to get rid of the ball instead of putting the team in bad down/distance situations that cause them to not being able to sustain drives and this is what is keeping a bad defense on the field more than they should be.

Example: look no further than 51-7. Bottom line is making 2-3 long scoring plays and not being able to sustain drives, this keeping the defense on the field to long will never be a winning formula.
You're going to use an example from 2019 to make a point about the the type of QB Watson was in 2020? Why not use an example from Brees' tenure with the Chargers to make a point about the type of QB he was with the Saints? They are both equally invalid.

And this is the real issue: You guys have a narrative and have close to zilch to support it, aside from "4-12," an argument several posters have already annihilated with examples of Elway, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, etc. all suffering losing seasons despite outstanding QB play on their parts.

BTW, the formula Brady/Brees use has their teams in contention for championship's every year. I kinda like that.
Sure, if you are trying to win a championship in 2004. It's 2021. And even Tom the Legend is throwing the ball farther than Watson on average.
 

ClemsonTexan

Waterboy
Watson's PFF rank by year.

2017: 29th
2018: 11th
2019: 9th
2020: 2nd

2018: "Be objective and look at PFF and other hard data. Watson clearly is not on that level. PFF says so."
2021: "Watson has not improved (much). Still making all the same mistakes. PFF and data are not the end-all, be-all. I trust my eyes."
 

Earl34

All Pro
I believe Corrosion is saying he wants DW4 to get rid of the ball instead of putting the team in bad down/distance situations that cause them to not being able to sustain drives and this is what is keeping a bad defense on the field more than they should be.

Example: look no further than 51-7. Bottom line is making 2-3 long scoring plays and not being able to sustain drives, this keeping the defense on the field to long will never be a winning formula.

BTW, the formula Brady/Brees use has their teams in contention for championship's every year. I kinda like that.
You know what also helps sustains drives and keeps a bad defense off the field?
  • Competent running game.
  • OL that allows the QB to go through progressions and then hit the shorter routes.
  • OC reducing the number of slow developing plays and calling plays with shorter routes to help the QB get rid of the ball quicker
  • QB getting rid of the ball quicker
  • OL reducing the number of blown blocks or missed assignments that puts a team in bad down/distance
As you can see, there are multiple ways to sustain drives and prevent 51-7. Why is the only solution mentioned is Watson getting rid of the ball? During 51-7, Duke Johnson had 1 carry for 11 yards. Go figure.
 

Lucky

Not like this. Not like this.
Staff member
Example: look no further than 51-7. Bottom line is making 2-3 long scoring plays and not being able to sustain drives, this keeping the defense on the field to long will never be a winning formula.
Your teammates have to not commit bonehead penalties and blow blocking assignments to make sustained drives. Watson doesn’t have those teammates. He’s playing with what he’s got. And doing an amazing job of it, I might add.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You're going to use an example from 2019 to make a point about the the type of QB Watson was in 2020? Why not use an example from Brees' tenure with the Chargers to make a point about the type of QB he was with the Saints? They are both equally invalid.

And this is the real issue: You guys have a narrative and have close to zilch to support it, aside from "4-12," an argument several posters have already annihilated with examples of Elway, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, etc. all suffering losing seasons despite outstanding QB play on their parts.



Sure, if you are trying to win a championship in 2004. It's 2021. And even Tom the Legend is throwing the ball farther than Watson on average.
Or in 2019, I believe the Pats won a SB, in 2018 I believe Foles won a championship. Mahomes and Rodgers although they can run do most of their damage from the pocket. Are you starting to notice a trend here? I bet you dont notice the trend.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Your teammates have to not commit bonehead penalties and blow blocking assignments to make sustained drives. Watson doesn’t have those teammates. He’s playing with what he’s got. And doing an amazing job of it, I might add.
Another case of it's everybody but DW4's fault.

This isn't just a this yr problem, this has been an ongoing problem.

Yet with no help at all, The Houston Watson's lead the league in passing. I meanwho called the plays that allowed this to happen. I'm sure DW4 called the plays and threw the ball to himself in your mind, or he might as well have been doing this.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You know what also helps sustains drives and keeps a bad defense off the field?
  • Competent running game.
  • OL that allows the QB to go through progressions and then hit the shorter routes.
  • OC reducing the number of slow developing plays and calling plays with shorter routes to help the QB get rid of the ball quicker
  • QB getting rid of the ball quicker
  • OL reducing the number of blown blocks or missed assignments that puts a team in bad down/distance
As you can see, there are multiple ways to sustain drives and prevent 51-7. Why is the only solution mentioned is Watson getting rid of the ball? During 51-7, Duke Johnson had 1 carry for 11 yards. Go figure.
51-7 and DW4 shares no responsibility.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Yeah, I don't get his fixation on this either. Nearly all plays will have a short/underneath route and sometimes those short/underneath routes are open at the same time that a longer route is open. But Corrosion seems convinced that shorter routes are nearly always the best option and/or that Watson is somehow missing easier completions despite presenting no evidence to that effect. The fact is that Watson is both throwing longer passes AND completing them hence the 70.1%!!! completion rate.

He acts as if these multi-million dollar organizations don't rely on analytics that tell them what the high value throws/plays are. If Corrosion were a basketball coach or GM, he would chastise Steph Curry for shooting an open 3-pointer when he could have dribbled several feet inside of the line and hit a shorter, easier shot.

The entire NFL is throwing longer passes. It's not just Watson/Texans. Brady averaged 9.1 intended air yards per attempt this season. Mahomes and Wilson averaged 9.1 and 9.0 yards per attempt in 2018, respectively. Rodgers averaged 8.8 intended air yards per attempt in 2018 and 2019. Wilson averaged a whopping 9.4 intended air yards per attempt in 2019. The only elite QBs who haven't consistently aired it out since the NFL started tracking this stat are Brady and Brees who are both over the age of 40. This could be function of learning the game during a different era with different philosophies, declining arm strength, or both.
It all started before the extension. Corrosion brought up this thingy about a quarterback eating a certain percentage of the cap. And how you want win a Super Bowl because of it. So every chance he gets, he’ll point out mainly the negatives and few that a boy Watson. That’s one of the reasons why I think he’s so fixated with Watson not throwing the short routes to his expectation. It’s like he bypasses the terrible oline play, or the questionable play calling. Bump the fact that we have the worst rushing attack in the NFL. Another thing I believe he thinks, since Watson will be paid 39 million next year that he should make all the players better. Let’s not factor in the opposing team players are being paid to do a job. Therefore, realistically speaking, you’re not going to do what is expected all the time.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
You know what also helps sustains drives and keeps a bad defense off the field?
  • Competent running game.
  • OL that allows the QB to go through progressions and then hit the shorter routes.
  • OC reducing the number of slow developing plays and calling plays with shorter routes to help the QB get rid of the ball quicker
  • QB getting rid of the ball quicker
  • OL reducing the number of blown blocks or missed assignments that puts a team in bad down/distance
As you can see, there are multiple ways to sustain drives and prevent 51-7. Why is the only solution mentioned is Watson getting rid of the ball? During 51-7, Duke Johnson had 1 carry for 11 yards. Go figure.
And guess what Earl those two still won’t take any of that into consideration. Do you see Steel response?
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I believe Corrosion is saying he wants DW4 to get rid of the ball instead of putting the team in bad down/distance situations that cause them to not being able to sustain drives
I'd like that as well.

But, I'd also like one of those offenses that don't stall because of a holding penalty or a false start. Too many teams, good & bad overcome those regularly. Now, two or three or four of those penalties per drive is something else, but one penalty shouldn't stop a drive.

That’s one of the reasons why I think he’s so fixated with Watson not throwing the short routes to his expectation. It’s like he bypasses the terrible oline play, or the questionable play calling.
I think it's "knowing" you have a questionable offensive line, lets develop a rhythm first, then take our shots (I don't agree with him, I think Watson does a lot of that early in the game.)
 

OptimisticTexan

2021 Building Block 1 / Go Texans
Or in 2019, I believe the Pats won a SB, in 2018 I believe Foles won a championship. Mahomes and Rodgers although they can run do most of their damage from the pocket. Are you starting to notice a trend here? I bet you dont notice the trend.
The only trend I see....the great organizations/teams prioritized surrounding the QB’s mentioned with lots of talent and great coaching staffs during those SB runs. My guess, you must've thought those QB’s hauled a dysfunctional organization like the Texans to the SB and victories.
 
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ClemsonTexan

Waterboy
The Houston Watson's lead the league in passing.
Mahomes and Rodgers although they can run do most of their damage from the pocket. Are you starting to notice a trend here? I bet you dont notice the trend.
Behold the logic here. Watson somehow leads the NFL in passing yards while at the same time not doing most of his damage from the pocket.
 
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ClemsonTexan

Waterboy
You know what also helps sustains drives and keeps a bad defense off the field?
  • Competent running game.
  • OL that allows the QB to go through progressions and then hit the shorter routes.
  • OC reducing the number of slow developing plays and calling plays with shorter routes to help the QB get rid of the ball quicker
  • QB getting rid of the ball quicker
  • OL reducing the number of blown blocks or missed assignments that puts a team in bad down/distance
As you can see, there are multiple ways to sustain drives and prevent 51-7. Why is the only solution mentioned is Watson getting rid of the ball? During 51-7, Duke Johnson had 1 carry for 11 yards. Go figure.
Everything he says is pretty much a lie. The only QB who threw for more 1st Downs per drive than Watson this year was Mahomes. That's it. The issue is that we don't run for many 1st Downs and many of the 1st Downs we have picked up by running are courtesy of Watson.

Just to illustrate how specious an argument it is to say that intended air yards are somehow tied to an inability to sustain offensive drives, we can simply look at the number of passing first downs per drive by QB.

Mahomes - 1.56
Watson - 1.34
Rodgers - 1.31
Brady - 1.28
Wilson - 1.21
Carr - 1.16
Lock - 0.935
Wentz - 0.915

Brady and Watson are at the top of the list (#1 and #3, respectively) in intended air yards per attempt and also rank near the top of the list in passing first downs per drive. Wentz and Lock are also at the top of the list for intended air yards per attempt and are among the worst in obtaining passing first downs. Then you've got Rodgers who has been middle of the pack this year in intended air yards per attempt while ranking towards the top in first downs per drive.

There's no correlation between throwing long or short passes and sustaining drives. Some QBs throw long passes often and can't move the chains (Josh Allen's average intended air yards per attempt in 2018 was 11.0). Mahomes averaged 9.1 passing yards per attempt in 2018 and won MVP with 50 TD passes.
 

ClemsonTexan

Waterboy
Watch Rodgers next game and see if most of his throws come from either the pocket or off of designed boots?
Have you watched the Packers?

LaFleur’s scheme has made life easier on the front. Not only are the Packers using more pre-snap motion, but designed rollouts, bootlegs and the various play-action concepts in the scheme can help keep a quarterback out of harm’s way in the pocket. When Rodgers mentions throwing from a clean platform, he’s talking about opportunities to throw without traffic in his face or at his feet.

That's not a knock on how well Rodgers is playing, but it is a tip of the cap to LaFleur for designing a system laden with play-action passes that create easy completions for the quarterback. The Packers are utilizing more movement passes (bootlegs) with tight ends and H-backs leaking into the flat through the back door.

With that in mind, I believe we are seeing how a coach can elevate even a great player by alleviating some of the pressure on him through schematics and structure. Instead of Rodgers carrying the offense with his improvisational skills, he is trusting the system and letting the big plays come to him.

Just stop posting. Each time you do we all get to see how you really don't know what you're talking about.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
You know what also helps sustains drives and keeps a bad defense off the field?
  • Competent running game.
  • OL that allows the QB to go through progressions and then hit the shorter routes.
  • OC reducing the number of slow developing plays and calling plays with shorter routes to help the QB get rid of the ball quicker
  • QB getting rid of the ball quicker
  • OL reducing the number of blown blocks or missed assignments that puts a team in bad down/distance
As you can see, there are multiple ways to sustain drives and prevent 51-7. Why is the only solution mentioned is Watson getting rid of the ball? During 51-7, Duke Johnson had 1 carry for 11 yards. Go figure.

I've gone so far as to say there's only ONE other QB I'd prefer over Watson to build around long term .... That aint good enough.

Any critique of the guy gets met with hostility and or some asinine narrative that "you hate Watson".

If I hated Watson , he sure as heck wouldn't be my second choice to build a franchise around.


Watson for MVP rah rah rah.
 

ClemsonTexan

Waterboy
I've gone so far as to say there's only ONE other QB I'd prefer over Watson to build around long term .... That aint good enough.

Any critique of the guy gets met with hostility and or some asinine narrative that "you hate Watson".

If I hated Watson , he sure as heck wouldn't be my second choice to build a franchise around.


Watson for MVP rah rah rah.
That totally did not answer the question. Why not give it another shot, Skippy?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I've gone so far as to say there's only ONE other QB I'd prefer over Watson to build around long term .... That aint good enough.

Any critique of the guy gets met with hostility and or some asinine narrative that "you hate Watson".

If I hated Watson , he sure as heck wouldn't be my second choice to build a franchise around.


Watson for MVP rah rah rah.
The key word is I, meaning you.

I would rather build around Burrow (I know he's hurt but I think he will be fine) or especially Herbert. Because they're on their rookie deals and are just as good if not better than DW4.

I wouldn't like them as much if they were in yr 4 and just signed a cap killing 160 million dollar contract.

I don't like Lawrence as much as I like any of those 3 guys. In short, I think the Clemson offense does QBs a disservice when they enter the NFL.
 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
I've gone so far as to say there's only ONE other QB I'd prefer over Watson to build around long term .... That aint good enough.

Any critique of the guy gets met with hostility and or some asinine narrative that "you hate Watson".

If I hated Watson , he sure as heck wouldn't be my second choice to build a franchise around.


Watson for MVP rah rah rah.
There's only ONE other QB you'd take over Watson to build around and that ain't good enough??? Is that really what you said? WTF?? THAT'S why your critique of him is met with hostility (if that's even true). If dude isn't THE one, then it's unacceptable? Talk about asinine.

Your critique is met with hostility because you act like those couple or 3 plays a game ya'll pick out to critique, are what he is. That and the one moron troll around here who does hate him and posts about it 400 times every ******* day. (Didn't mention anyone's name so I shouldn't be in trouble - insert rolleyes emoji).This guy has put up incredible numbers under circumstances that would make most want to quit playing the game, yet this board is full of what he doesn't do. You scoff at Jesus in cleats, but that's exactly what it seems you expect from him. That's why you get met with so-called hostility.

If you can't get behind what Watson brings to the table, you might as well stop watching football because you're never going to be satisfied. Like him or not. Which I don't get why people don't like him. He seems to have a good head on his shoulders, does what's necessary to learn and improve his game, has a great attitude, doesn't have any off-field issues, and he's pretty damn good at what he does on a football field. Why the dislike? Because you're on record on some ******* message board that he's not the guy you would have picked? **** me.
 

FuzzyLogic

Mathematically Possible
There's only ONE other QB you'd take over Watson to build around and that ain't good enough??? Is that really what you said? WTF?? THAT'S why your critique of him is met with hostility (if that's even true). If dude isn't THE one, then it's unacceptable? Talk about asinine.

Your critique is met with hostility because you act like those couple or 3 plays a game ya'll pick out to critique, are what he is. That and the one moron troll around here who does hate him and posts about it 400 times every ******* day. (Didn't mention anyone's name so I shouldn't be in trouble - insert rolleyes emoji).This guy has put up incredible numbers under circumstances that would make most want to quit playing the game, yet this board is full of what he doesn't do. You scoff at Jesus in cleats, but that's exactly what it seems you expect from him. That's why you get met with so-called hostility.

If you can't get behind what Watson brings to the table, you might as well stop watching football because you're never going to be satisfied. Like him or not. Which I don't get why people don't like him. He seems to have a good head on his shoulders, does what's necessary to learn and improve his game, has a great attitude, doesn't have any off-field issues, and he's pretty damn good at what he does on a football field. Why the dislike? Because you're on record on some ******* message board that he's not the guy you would have picked? **** me.
Not trying to speak for Corrosion - but I read that as "I've gone so far as to say there's only ONE other QB I'd prefer over Watson to build around long term .... That aint good enough, for you guys, I'm still a hater"

I did not read it as there is only one other QB I would build around therefore I hate DW "that ain't good enough".
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
The only trend I see....the great organizations/teams prioritized surrounding the QB’s mentioned with lots of talent and great coaching staffs during those SB runs. My guess, you must've thought those QB’s hauled a dysfunctional organization like the Texans to the SB and victories.
Rodgers has the last few yrs.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Have you watched the Packers?







Just stop posting. Each time you do we all get to see how you really don't know what you're talking about.
If you read 1 of my posts I said boots.
 


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