Vince Young needs to be here

[LBC_Justin]

Really great post.... Good points..... but I still don't want him. Why?? well, how many times have we split Domanick, Wells, or Morency out as a slot reciever?? How many times has Kubiak, who called the plays in Denver, line Bell, or Anderson, or any runningback up as a widereciever?? Out of the six backs, I can't think of once. Our team isn't made for that kind of back, our coach doesn't plan for that kind of back, and our new system isn't designed for that kind of back. Reggie isn't going to be the right back for any of the 32 NFL, but a particular team............ maybe even several particualr teams.

The reason Reggie Bush is a #1 pick is he creates unimaginable match up problems. He is way too fast and has too many moves to have a linebacker cover him. He will break tackles, out run, out juke and run over many of the DB's, yes even in the NFL. The guy is a sick punt returner, and I think if you take Bush you use him for every postion he can play, punt return, opposite Mathis on the kick return, slot reciever, and running back. The guy is an all purpose yards machine. Use him that way.

He might be a big reason we start seeing AJ, Mathis and Gaffney getting open next season.

I wish you guys got to see more than just his highlights. I watched him take a hit behind the line of scrimmage and fight for a 8 yard gain on several occasions. They guy is fast, stronger than you would believe and people even questioning his ability to run between the tackles haven't been paying attention or are just repeating what they read by one guy on ESPN. This is just crazy talk.

 

[Huge]

This is a repost of a previous post I made. It is intended to ENLIGHTEN.

everyone keeps saying that Reggie Bush was shut down in the Rose Bowl. LOL no way. Yes his performance was way overshadowed by VY's but he still had a great game, maybe not great by Reggie Bush standards but still great none the less.

Let me put it into perspective.

In the RoseBowl, which was one of his worst games of the year.
He...
averaged 6.3 yard per carry, rushing for 82 yards.
averaged 15.8 yards per catch, receiving for 95 yards.
1 TD

If his stats for the RoseBowl game were exstrapulated into a full 16 game NFL Season.
Recieving: He would be the #2 Wide Reciever in the NFL in total yards and he would be the #5 Wide Reciever in Yards per catch.
Rushing: He would be #1 rusher in yards per carry and he would be the #10 rusher in the NFL in total rushing yards. (All this while only getting 1/2 the carries, because of Lendale.)
Scoring: He would be the #4 in the NFL for most Touchdowns scored by any position.
All purpose yards: He would be #1 in the NFL in All purpose yards.

DeAngelo Williams averaged 163.25 yards per game rushing. Average that out over 16 games and it's 2,615 yards. That would break Eric Dickerson's single season rushing mark by 507 yards.

Or to make it look even worse...

Vince Young - 3,736.6 yards passing per game (good enough for 8th in the NFL)
Vince Young - 1,292.3 yards rushing per game (good enough for 10th in the NFL)
His 6.8 yards per carry would rank 2nd in the NFL...behind Reggie Bush, of course.

"ENLIGHTENING" argument or dumb decision to translate collegiate stats to the NFL?

I know the stats don't convert like that to the NFL...

Yeah, no *expletive*.

...but the point is many people think UT shut him down in the Rose Bowl. No they didn't. In fact if Lendale White converts a 4th and 2 or the USC defense makes one 4th down stop, people would view this whole game differently, as USC is the winner.

But nobody was going to remember Bush's game. If USC wins, Leinart or White is the MVP going away.

Keep in mind that the UT defense had a "Spy" on him to keep him from breaking big plays. He still managed to break a few big plays both as a reciever and as a runner.

And USC didn't do the same with Young?

Reggie Bush is the real deal and he proved it over and over this entire season. He didn't just have one or two big games. He had lots of big games. Is he as big as his hype? no, no one could possible as big as the hype machine that ESPN has created for him. Just like VY is not as good as his hype. In this day and age of 24 hour TV/Radio coverage, no one can live up to the legend that Sports Center can make a player.

Agreed. But where is the notion that Young's only great game came in the Rose Bowl coming from? You do realize there's a reason he finished 2nd in the Heisman and won every other award he was nominated for, don't you?

Another thing.
Pick any NFL running back, past or present. Compare their Yard per Carry as a college players to Reggie Bush's 8.7 ypc he had his Junior year. That should sell you.

Okay...how 'bout Justin Forsett? He was just a Soph from Cal yet averaged just 1.1 yard per carry less than Bush. If these two players swapped teams, do you think Bush would keep that 8.7 or do you think their averages would move a little closer based on the drop in surrounding talent that Bush would face?

As a Longhorn living in the heart of USC country, I hated all the hype Bush was getting. I watched every USC game looking for reasons this guy isn't the real deal and reasons not to like him. He is the real deal and lucky for the Texans we are going to be in a postion to get one of the best College rusher ever and a guy who will make a huge impact on our team NEXT YEAR. Not 2 years from now but NEXT YEAR.

This we agree on.

 

[Spoda]

about to rant
i love the passion..i really do...but come on!!! if anyone actually believes that vince will be able to do the things in the pros that he did in college then you really are looking through burnt orange glasses..i mean seriously...that's not to say he won't be great or good or vick-like...or hell even peyton-like..that's p-e-y...anyway...just insert reggie's name in my rambling above and replace vick and peyton with barry sanders and gayle sayers...i mean really?? some of you really think this will happen? really? that these guys will come in and just blow everyone away? i think the guys that think this way are trapped in fantasy football instead of real NFL football...in the big 6 as i refer to them..vince/bush/leinart/brick/mario/hawk...vince HAS to be the biggest risk just by the position and his lack of blah blah..shotgun blah..throwing motion blah...reggie is small blah...we know...the fact is everyone has the potential to bust...so i can not understand why we wouldn't want more chances to not bust?? i know charley likes to be flukie....i know................the main reason i keep hearing for not trading down (other than the ridiculous "he's from houston") is that reggie and vince are once in a generation ....really?? is this guaranteed?no...so trade out and get more chances to get solid players to go to the promise land...i know charley...i know

 

[thunderkyss]

The reason Reggie Bush is a #1 pick is he creates unimaginable match up problems. He is way too fast and has too many moves to have a linebacker cover him. He will break tackles, out run, out juke and run over many of the DB's, yes even in the NFL. The guy is a sick punt returner, and I think if you take Bush you use him for every postion he can play, punt return, opposite Mathis on the kick return, slot reciever, and running back. The guy is an all purpose yards machine. Use him that way.

He might be a big reason we start seeing AJ, Mathis and Gaffney getting open next season.

I wish you guys got to see more than just his highlights. I watched him take a hit behind the line of scrimmage and fight for a 8 yard gain on several occasions. They guy is fast, stronger than you would believe and people even questioning his ability to run between the tackles haven't been paying attention or are just repeating what they read by one guy on ESPN. This is just crazy talk.

I too wish I got to see more than the highlights..... my impressions are bassed on those, and what people say(10 carries a game, lining up as a reciever more often than not) on the football boards I frequent more than what is said on ESPN...... if that were the case, I'd be in the Draft Bush crowd.

When was the last time a rookie RB had the kind of impact you're projecting for Reggie?? LT & Caddilac Williams were both big surprises, even though LT in particualr was projected to do very well, neither he nor Cadillac was a #1 pick. I can't think of one RB(bad.... bad memory) to be drafted with the #1 overall, that wasn't a between the tackles 20+ carries/game prospect....

 

[thunderkyss]

about to rant
the main reason i keep hearing for not trading down (other than the ridiculous "he's from houston") is that reggie and vince are once in a generation ....really?? is this guaranteed?no...so trade out and get more chances to get solid players to go to the promise land...i know charley...i know

You know... I'm starting to get bugged by these "don't be stupid.... trade down" posts..... I know Kubiak/Casserly/McNair don't give a rat's YKW about what I think. And they are going to do what they are going to do. I participate on this board, because I'm a fan fo this team. I participate in these threads, because I have an opinion about them, & I'm a big fan of one of the prospects. And, this is the highlight of my Texans Football season so far.

There are several trade down threads, mock drafts with trade down themes, etc... and while you'll get the occasional, "I don't see how you could pass on Bush" comments, you're generally allowed to discuss the topic of the thread with other fans similarly interested, with little impediment.

Now I'll agree with you, and I welcome posts like yours, in the "Young is from Houston" or the "Bush/Young will please the fans" threads, or in reply to those posts where that is the primary(and sometimes only) argument.

Now, personally, even if Bush is going to be the next Gayle Sayers, Marshall Faulk, or even Barry Sanders, I wouldn't take him with the #1 pick. Why, because we aren't the Lions, or the Rams...... If he is going to be the next OJ, Emmit, Bettis, or any other Runner, that fits our system, I'm all for it.

Trade down..... right now, I can see how many believe it is the best option, I don't think we can make that decision till after free Agency..... depending on what we do there, we really don't know how urgent the need is for any particular position. Most of us have stated.... we should trade down, but if we are going to use the pick I want........ The man with the Cape, and the red S on his chest.

This is fun, I'm sorry you aren't enjoying it as much as the rest of us, but this isn't about you.

 

[eclem5]

Yes I did. My repsonse might seem a bit harsh, and I'll never discredit what anybody has to say. Wether it be thier first post of the 12546541 post; but when people join this board, and post poorly written (which are a ***** to read) and highly repetative posts I will bring to their attention; hoping to improve the community as a whole. The harshness comes from seeing the opening. post about a 100 or so times since the Rose Bowl

There are several posts that already state what the thread starter stated, he/she simply could have replied in one of them that he/she agrees. Which is how this place is supposed to work. The flood of "VY is teh best ever" threads HAS gotten old, espically those that don't offer anything new to the conversation.

You follow?

Well said,

I do believe that most of the Vince Young supporters are so passionate about the issue and joined the message board (not knowing how message boards work)to see if contribute to him coming here. This will be an issue until the draft and still will come up in conversations for years to come.

The only way not to hear Young/Bush rhetoric is to not read those threads

 

[eclem5]

young was horrible against a&m. you didn't watch the game? he was sulking on the sidelines during the game. that pretty much lost him the heisman. he got pressured, he made bad decisions, he did enough to lose the game. a blocked punt won the game for texas. what "heart" are you referring to? and what does that have to do with anything? that game is just a tremendous example of the true value of young, which is that they can still win even in his worst of games

Hey, guess what? They WON the GAME! Last year they won every game

 

[kastofsna]

He had 2 runs of over 10 yards. Two. Though he did have a few runs of 9 yards. But if those count as "huge plays" in your book, then you might want to re-evaluate Young's game against A&M.

the point is that bush was effective in the rose bowl, much more than young in the a&m game. even the commentators who are so young-biased said he struggled and the game lost him the heisman. his sulking on the sideline was more evidence of this

Causing a fumble inside the red zone because you lateral it counts as a "huge play" in your book? Who cares what he did before he tossed it away? Did Leon Lett have a good play when he almost scored a TD in Super Bowl XXVII before Don Beebe stripped the ball away? No...nobody remembers how/what Lett did before then. They just remember his brain fart at the end of the play.

once again, the braincramp was dumb, but when people say texas "shut him down" it's simply not true. they couldn't stop him on that play, and he did it himself. he's never done anything like that. i'm sure he's learned his lesson, too

Oh, but he had 92 receiving yards. I forgot. Nevermind 26 of those came on the 2nd to last play of the game when the Texas defense was willing to give up anything underneath that USC wanted to throw. That doesn't matter at all...it was a 26 yard play!!

okay, take away that play. 18 touches, 148 yards, 8.2 yards per touch

Funny how you use Bush's "limited touches" against Texas but ignore the fact Vince only had 24 attempts against A&M.

only 24 attempts? he average 25 attempts a game this year. try again

Where was Bush when the game was on the line? Where was Bush anytime USC was inside their 5 yd line? Where was Bush anytime USC was inside the 20's? And spare me the "That's what White is for...pounding the ball up the middle". 2 of White's TD came on the outside.

why go against what has worked for the past 2 seasons? white was the short yardage guy, and it always lead to wins. that's the way they do it

And since it's dumb for anybody to point towards Vince's stats as proof he had an okay day against A&M, why have you only pointed towards Bush's stats against Texas to prove he had an okay day? Apparently you didn't watch the game...right?

nah i was pointing out that he had several big plays. i didn't actually mention any stats. people don't remember because he wasn't there late in the game when leinart was passing a lot and when vince young was going off. if USC won, it'd be a different story

 

[jerek]

He had 2 runs of over 10 yards. Two. Though he did have a few runs of 9 yards. But if those count as "huge plays" in your book, then you might want to re-evaluate Young's game against A&M.

Causing a fumble inside the red zone because you lateral it counts as a "huge play" in your book? Who cares what he did before he tossed it away? Did Leon Lett have a good play when he almost scored a TD in Super Bowl XXVII before Don Beebe stripped the ball away? No...nobody remembers how/what Lett did before then. They just remember his brain fart at the end of the play.

Oh, but he had 92 receiving yards. I forgot. Nevermind 26 of those came on the 2nd to last play of the game when the Texas defense was willing to give up anything underneath that USC wanted to throw. That doesn't matter at all...it was a 26 yard play!!

Funny how you use Bush's "limited touches" against Texas but ignore the fact Vince only had 24 attempts against A&M.

Where was Bush when the game was on the line? Where was Bush anytime USC was inside their 5 yd line? Where was Bush anytime USC was inside the 20's? And spare me the "That's what White is for...pounding the ball up the middle". 2 of White's TD came on the outside.

And since it's dumb for anybody to point towards Vince's stats as proof he had an okay day against A&M, why have you only pointed towards Bush's stats against Texas to prove he had an okay day? Apparently you didn't watch the game...right?

For the record (and not diminishing Young's Rose Bowl performance) but it is always interesting to look back and remember the refs boned USC out of a stop on that drive where Young's "amazing lateral" should have been called dead when his knee hit the turf a full three seconds before he chucked the ball. The commentators replayed it ad nauseum and there was absolutely no doubt Young was down before he got rid of the ball to the guy who ran it in for a TD.

That is not at all to say that Texas wouldn't have gone on to score, but they were struggling early on in the game, and who's to say USC wouldn't have held them to a field goal, forced a turnover maybe, or at least drained some time off the clock. Plays like that completely change the face of the game. I point this out not to say "Young sucks" or anything of the kind, but only in suggesting that a whole lot of the Young-or-bust crowd would be signing a different tune if, say, UT had lost that game. To which you respond "they didn't," but don't act like VY and VY alone was responsible for all 41 of those points.

 

[tulexan]

It was also a forward lateral

 

[Huge]

the point is that bush was effective in the rose bowl, much more than young in the a&m game. even the commentators who are so young-biased said he struggled and the game lost him the heisman. his sulking on the sideline was more evidence of this

There's a picture of Bush sulking on the sidelines after his fumble. When I get home (and away from these firewalls at work), I'll post it for you.

Bush accounted for 7 points in the Rose Bowl and 1 turnover.
Young accounted for 7 points in the A&M game and 2 turnovers.

How that's "much more" effective I guess would be a difference of opinion.

once again, the braincramp was dumb, but when people say texas "shut him down" it's simply not true. they couldn't stop him on that play, and he did it himself. he's never done anything like that. i'm sure he's learned his lesson, too

Agreed about it being dumb that people say Texas shut him down. But it's equally dumb to say he had a great game (not saying you have...but others have).

okay, take away that play. 18 touches, 148 yards, 8.2 yards per touch

That's 74 yards and 2 yards per play fewer than what he averaged the rest of the season.

only 24 attempts? he average 25 attempts a game this year. try again

For the season, Bush averaged:
16.7 carries per game
3.1 receptions per game

Or 20 offensive touches per game.

In the Rose Bowl, he had:
13 carries
6 receptions

Or 19 offensive touches.

Is that what you meant by Bush's "limited touches"?

How's that for a second effort?

why go against what has worked for the past 2 seasons? white was the short yardage guy, and it always lead to wins. that's the way they do it

Because it didn't lead to a win this time. In the past, White's 2 yard dives were okay because USC was probably killing whoever they were playing. A lot of that had to do with Bush scoring early and often. Only he didn't do that this time. Which means he wasn't as effective in this game as he'd been in the past.

nah i was pointing out that he had several big plays. i didn't actually mention any stats.

You're right, you didn't mention stats. This is what you said...

and for those who think young had a good day against a&m by just looking at the stats......please. he had an awful day. you didn't watch the game apparently

That's when you went on about Bush's "several big plays" which turned out to be 3 (his TD run, his 18 yd run, and his run after the screen before he fumbled it...which he learned his lesson).

So if I took your point of view and only focused on the good...

2nd and 8 at TEX 22 Vince Young pass complete to David Thomas for 24 yards to the Texas 46 for a 1ST down. - Not a big play?

2nd and 10 at TA&M 48 Vince Young rush for 11 yards to the TexAM 37 for a 1ST down. - Not a big play?

3rd and 9 at TA&M 24 Vince Young pass complete to Limas Sweed for 20 yards to the TexAM 4 for a 1ST down. - Not a big play?

3rd and 13 at TEX 30 Vince Young pass complete to Quan Cosby for 21 yards to the TexAM 49 [/b]for a 1ST down.[/b] - Not a big play?

4th and 5 at TA&M 13 Vince Young pass complete to Ahmard Hall for 13 yards for a TOUCHDOWN. - Not a big play?

Then Young didn't have that bad of a day against A&M. Right?

If I came on here and said Young had a good day against A&M because he had "several huge plays" and listed those five, what would you say to that? Would you think it'd be pretty dumb for me to focus on what he did well and not mention when he didn't get the job done?

 

[Huge]

For the record (and not diminishing Young's Rose Bowl performance) but it is always interesting to look back and remember the refs boned USC out of a stop on that drive where Young's "amazing lateral" should have been called dead when his knee hit the turf a full three seconds before he chucked the ball. The commentators replayed it ad nauseum and there was absolutely no doubt Young was down before he got rid of the ball to the guy who ran it in for a TD.

Agreed the refs botched that one (as they did with Kelson's INT no-call).

However, they didn't "bone USC out of a stop". Had they called Vince down where his knee was, it would've been 1st and goal from the 10. He ran for 12 yards on 1st and 10 before he pitched it.

 

[jerek]

Agreed the refs botched that one (as they did with Kelson's INT no-call).

However, they didn't "bone USC out of a stop". Had they called Vince down where his knee was, it would've been 1st and goal from the 10. He ran for 12 yards on 1st and 10 before he pitched it.

1st and goal yes, but a lot can happen in that time frame. It wasn't a first-down stop, but a stop is a stop from a scoring perspective no matter where it occurs on the field. And from there, maybe USC only stops them on one play, or maybe all three. Maybe UT settles for a field goal or, somehow, they turn it over. Maybe UT scores the TD and USC only succeeds in running time off the clock which, that early in the game, may not have had much trickle down impact on into the 4th quarter. Or maybe it would have.

There are too many subsequent what-ifs to state anything along the lines of the zebras costing USC the game, and that was not my intention: only to point out that UT was struggling to move the ball and finish a drive early on, and that the refs' mistake of that magnitude in a USC loss should be given due consideration in the outcome and its implications on draft stock.

Again, not to say that Vince didn't have a great game or that he isn't a substantial draft talent, but I get tired of the one-dimensional, no-context arguments for one player or the other. And that is not aimed at you so much as it is a general feeling toward so much of the board.

 

[Huge]

Okay, I see what you're saying. I've read/seen/heard complaints from others that were under the impression that it should've been USC's ball at the spot where his knee hit. When I saw your post, I automatically reverted back to that train of thought. My mistake.

And you're right about the what-if's. "What if" they properly ruled his knee down and Texas went on to score a TD on the next few plays and made the PAT instead of rushing it and missing because they didn't want the play reviewed?

That would've put Texas up by 2 after their last TD instead of 1. So does Mack call for a PAT to make it a 3 point game or go for 2 and make USC have to score a TD to win the game. Or what if Mack does call for the PAT and Texas misses it (been known to happen) and now they're only up 2. So a FG wins it for USC and they likely still have a timeout since they wouldn't have had to use it when they were caught off guard when Texas lined up for the 2 point conversion.

That's a whole can of worms.

 

[Rewsky]

I'm kind of confused.

Some VY-haters are saying that we can't judge VY's potential just from ONE GAME in the Rose Bowl, yet they say his ONE GAME versus A&M is proof that he will be a bust.

I guess the ONE GAME argument is only valid when it applies to your point of view.

 

[jerek]

I'm kind of confused.

Some VY-haters are saying that we can't judge VY's potential just from ONE GAME in the Rose Bowl, yet they say his ONE GAME versus A&M is proof that he will be a bust.

I guess the ONE GAME argument is only valid when it applies to your point of view.

Pretty much. It's the unfortunate trial of trying to make a logical argument on a board filled with more agendas than the United States Congress.