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Today we should all have a moment of silence.....

J

jayseed2002

Guest
And thank God that TODAY is the LAST day of the Charley (opps) Casserly regime! I am wondering if he can take any of the BLOWN draft picks with him? This is like a washing of filthy hands! I just hope that Kubiack can try to fix what damage has been done. :yahoo:
 
Casserly's Biggest Flops:

Buchanon, Gaffney, Travis Johnson
*Check with me next year to see if Babin makes this list

Biggest Steals:

Mathis, Davis, Henson
*Check with me next year to see if Winston and Spencer makes this list

Add in the guys I forgot...
 
I don't necessarily think that T.J. is a flop. I think he was drafted as a project and didn't quite fit into the scheme we were using last year (as did 95% of the team). I think he will be used correctly this year and will benefit a lot from the staff/scheme changes as will the rest of the team. :twocents:
 
To me its a sad day. Casserly was a lot better than some of you think. In the end he and Kubiak were working very well together. Its rummored he saved guys like Wand from the Ax last year. We will have to see what happens.:stirpot:
 
Cjeremy635 said:
I don't necessarily think that T.J. is a flop. I think he was drafted as a project and didn't quite fit into the scheme we were using last year (as did 95% of the team). I think he will be used correctly this year and will benefit a lot from the staff/scheme changes as will the rest of the team. :twocents:
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I'm not ready to bail on him quite yet, but I'm really not very optimistic. I agree that he was used incorrectly, but he doesn't seem very coachable. I also don't like guys who don't work hard in practice. Maybe I just still hate the fact that we didn't take Derrick Johnson.
 
jayseed2002 said:
He was 18-46 in 4 seasons and we still have as many questions to answer in year 5 that we did in year 1. Has the o-line got that much better? WR-OK, RB-OK, QB- HUGE QUESTION MARK, D-line OK, LBS- many questions, secondary-take away Daunte and there are many questions..... depth????? MANY QUESTIONS!!!!!!

Live off your super bowls of MANY years ago....... this is the NFL (Not for Long) ie..... what have you done lately? :twocents:
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There were a lot of hands in the pot. In fact perhaps too many. Like I said I still think he's one of the best around. You won't realize that until he's gone and you look back.:poker:
 
Ibar_Harry said:
There were a lot of hands in the pot. In fact perhaps too many. Like I said I still think he's one of the best around. You won't realize that until he's gone and you look back.:poker:
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The fact that there were too many hands in the pot (I'm not sure what that means, really) was Charley's fault. He liked to say that the buck stopped with him. But it was the assistant coaches who were behind the Babin and Buchanon deals. When McNair gave him the ultimatum for solving the offensive line woes, Capers asked for defensive help in both the draft and free agency. And he got it. All the Texans came up with for o-line help was the vagabond Victor Riley. And where was Casserly when Capers asked Palmer to step down from the OC position (and he refused) during the '05 offseason? Charley lost his job because people stepped on his authority. That doesn't make you one of "the best around".

One thing I'll miss about Casserly is his candor. He was as open as he could be on his TV and radio shows. As things heated up for him least season, Charley wasn't so frank. Still, I gleaned much information on the Texans and the NFL from his weekly media spots. Probably much more than we'll get from the next guy the Texans hire.
 
AFD1717 said:
I'm not ready to bail on him quite yet, but I'm really not very optimistic. I agree that he was used incorrectly, but he doesn't seem very coachable. I also don't like guys who don't work hard in practice. Maybe I just still hate the fact that we didn't take Derrick Johnson.
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I was not aware of him being "uncoachable and slacking in practice". Not to start an argument, but do you have proof of this? I do not go to practices so I have no first hand knowledge of whether he does or does not practice seriously and whether or not he is coachable. I am just trying to have enough optomism to hope we didn't blow a first round pick on a non-learning slacker.
 
Ibar_Harry said:
To me its a sad day. Casserly was a lot better than some of you think. In the end he and Kubiak were working very well together. Its rummored he saved guys like Wand from the Ax last year. We will have to see what happens.:stirpot:
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I totaly agree with you Harry, he did a DARN GOOD job considering this was a new Franchise, My hat goes off to him and Dom Capers for even accepting a job with nothing to start with.

Good Job CC, good luck and Thanks for taking a job that most GMs would not want back then. :cool:
 
I'll be having a moment of silence by screaming at the top of my lungs out of joy! I'll never forget Casserly for picking Jabar Gaffney over Clinton Portis and Bennie Joppru over Jason Witten. Yes he did find Domanick Davis, C.C.Brown, and Jerome Mathis. But every once in a while you get lucky and hope that your scouts have done their jobs. I wish him goodluck but I'm happy to see him go.
 
Nawzer said:
I'll never forget Casserly for picking Jabar Gaffney over Clinton Portis ...
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Why is it everyone who wants to complain about missing on Portis picks out Gaffney as the pick where the Texans botched passing on him? Gaffney was considered a 1st round talent and BPA type player at #33. Portis was taken at #51 (he wasn't even the next RB taken, DeShaun Foster was at #34), one pick behind Pitts at #50, who was considered a reach by many. Oh wait, now I see it--making things more extreme thru the application of hindsight.
 
infantrycak said:
Why is it everyone who wants to complain about missing on Portis picks out Gaffney as the pick where the Texans botched passing on him? Gaffney was considered a 1st round talent and BPA type player at #33. Portis was taken at #51 (he wasn't even the next RB taken, DeShaun Foster was at #34), one pick behind Pitts at #50, who was considered a reach by many. Oh wait, now I see it--making things more extreme thru the application of hindsight.
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Which is the point of bringing up Joppru in this context. You have to be really out of it to pick a player who is going to be hurt for 3 years.
 
Runner said:
Which is the point of bringing up Joppru in this context. You have to be really out of it to pick a player who is going to be hurt for 3 years.
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Injuries are not the GM's fault I do believe that Charlie did a good job I am more inclinded to blame the issue's on Coaching.
 
There's far too many players Casserly had a hand in selecting, including really key players, whose careers are still too early in the pipeline to measure their ultimate success or failure in the NFL in order to grade Charleys time here. The best example of this is the biggest and first pick of all excluding the X-Draft, QB Carr.
Its still too soon to know about PBurnt though that's not looking good, too soon for Babin, and no way to rate TJ this early.
Hollings a huge bust no doubt, but alot of success especially in the later rounds as mentioned earlier. And the obvious, steller picks like AJ & D-Rob.
 
jayseed2002 said:
Does the GM HIRE THE COACH?????????
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I don't think this is just a rhetorical question with this team. I think the owner structured the front office to restrict the GM's authority over the coaches. For instance, I don't think Casserly had the authority to fire assistant coaches if Dom wouldn't, and couldn't even fire Dom if he chose to.

Does anyone know for sure?
 
Nawzer said:
I'll be having a moment of silence by screaming at the top of my lungs out of joy! I'll never forget Casserly for picking Jabar Gaffney over Clinton Portis and Bennie Joppru over Jason Witten. Yes he did find Domanick Davis, C.C.Brown, and Jerome Mathis. But every once in a while you get lucky and hope that your scouts have done their jobs. I wish him goodluck but I'm happy to see him go.
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I know you called it, right before the draft we all heard you.:thud:
 
I don't remember if I mentioned them or not back then, but I was definitely in favor of drafting Portis and Witten in those respectives drafts. I was a big Portis fan when he was in Miami and I knew he had a chance to be a superstar in the league. As for Witten he was the best tightend in the nation. I thought those 2 guys could have helped us out a lot. Those two were examples, but last year picking Travis Johnson, the Buchanon trade, Jason Babin, and drafting Charles Hill in the first draft etc. Like I said, I'm happy to see him and go and hopefully our next G.M. will do a better job of evaluating talent.
 
jayseed2002 said:
Does the GM HIRE THE COACH????????? You must be related to Charley! He was in charge, if they go to the Super Bowl he is a genious! If they go 18-46.... um..... um...... COACHES FAULT! :shrug:
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You're wrong, if they go to the super bowl the Coach is a genious. GM's do not get as much praise when teams are winning as the should, they do however, get ridiculed far more than they probably should when they lose. You can't place blame on Casserly for players being injured. Maybe the coach in some instances, but Joppru suffered from what is known as bad luck. Get off of Casserly's back! Yes he made a few mistakes just as every GM does, but he also made some very good decisions too.

I think Casserly did a decent job considering wht he had to work with. Many people seem to forget he had start fro SCRATCH. In the salry cap era building a consistently winning team from the start is impossible. (One year playoff runs and then being ripped apart for cap reasons do not count as consistent)
 
The problem with judging Charlie is that it is difficult to discern what he had control over and what he did not.

The Capers/Palmer marriage was a bad one and probably one that wasn't destined to succeed.

I still don't know why a Fangio 3-4 was done different than a Capers 3-4.

As for players, it is still too early to tell, especially given how difficult it is for players coming into a league and not being surrounded with much stability and talent

This article suggests that the best way to look at a draft is to let stuff evolve 5 years before you judge it.

As for Casserly's legacy, I said my peace here: blog link.

So, can anyone name a GM in the league that did a genius job with an expansion franchise? I am curious to know if they exist cuz it ain't an easy thing to do.
 
jayseed2002 said:
He was 18-46 in 4 seasons and we still have as many questions to answer in year 5 that we did in year 1. Has the o-line got that much better? WR-OK, RB-OK, QB- HUGE QUESTION MARK, D-line OK, LBS- many questions, secondary-take away Daunte and there are many questions..... depth????? MANY QUESTIONS!!!!!!

Live off your super bowls of MANY years ago....... this is the NFL (Not for Long) ie..... what have you done lately? :twocents:
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Casserly wasn't 18-46. Capers was. Maybe CC was drafting the players Capers wanted. I put a lot more blame on the coaching staff and the schemes than I do the players. I feel that Capers went with "name recognition" and played favorites. Get on his ***** list and you sat, regardless of talent. How else can you explain the personnel moves that staff made?
 
Texans_Chick said:
The problem with judging Charlie is that it is difficult to discern what he had control over and what he did not.
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Exactly! No one on this board knew what control he had over what. No one in the media did. No one in the Chronicle did. No one on the radio did.

Only McNair did, and he never talked about it.
 
Texans_Chick said:
So, can anyone name a GM in the league that did a genius job with an expansion franchise? I am curious to know if they exist cuz it ain't an easy thing to do.
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Bert Rose 8-5-1 4th Season without free agency in the old NFL.

Carolina and the Vikings went Super Bowl on the ninth season.
( not sure of the GM history in Carolina, Fox and Capers took most of the media time the way I remember it )

So if we land a Super Bowl slot in two or three seasons, we are as we are.
---

IF not then we might be a Seahawks... or worse a Tampa franchise... or even worse a Saints club... or even WORSE a Lions club.

Of course I would mostly likely be dead before we could challenge the Lions for worst NFL team ever, much less the absolute abyss of all NFL teams ever the Cardinals. Or maybe the Saints are worse then the Lions?... not sure. When things get that bad, it's like spacetime starts to warp. Hard to tell what's what.

Point being is that we have a long way to go before we start to look bad ( or even get close to as bad as you could look ).
 
Exactly! No one on this board knew what control he had over what. No one in the media did. No one in the Chronicle did. No one on the radio did.

Only McNair did, and he never talked about it.
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Here's a quote by McNair the day Reeves was hired behind Casserly's back:

When you're new, I think there's a feeling you have to do everything your football people tell you. You hear, 'Well, you haven't been in the NFL for 20 years, so you couldn't possibly know. That's not the way we do it in the NFL.'
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If that's not telling, I don't know what is.

Casserly held carte blanche especially in the early years. What's unknown is how much his coaching staff influenced the draft picks beyond the obvious.

In the end, he held a strong GM position and operated like a weak GM. There's plenty of evidence in quotes and actions that CC's role changed over time - giving more and more control to Capers on personnel moves as time passed. When Reeves was hired, CC worked hard to keep his job at the expense of Capers and staff. Same as how he acted with Norv.

The bottom line good news to all this is that McNair is learning how to be an owner.
 
Cjeremy635 said:
I was not aware of him being "uncoachable and slacking in practice". Not to start an argument, but do you have proof of this? I do not go to practices so I have no first hand knowledge of whether he does or does not practice seriously and whether or not he is coachable. I am just trying to have enough optomism to hope we didn't blow a first round pick on a non-learning slacker.
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I was basing that mostly on stuff I heard before we drafted him and in part on the recent article in the chronicle that says he is running with the third team. It quotes a coach as saying something to the effect of "Some players don't see a need to do anything hard in May." It was very obvious based on the context that he was referring to Johnson. Sorry I couldn't find the link. I will admit though, that I haven't been to practices and seen that with my own eyes.
 
this is the Bar to beat right now.

Two Expansion teams
old - Vikings - Winning season 4th / Super Bowl Ninth

Panthers - Championship 2nd/ Super Bowl Ninth
Jaguars - Championship 2nd/ No super Bowl/ 4 playoffs for 5 first seasons

We already lost out to the Panthers and Jags for 2nd season run.
We lost to the Jags for playoff winners.

Casserly does not look good "at this time", but not a complete dolt.

Panthers: Rod Smith/Collins/Capers
Jaguars: Beuerlein/Boselli/Coughlin with 3 solid 1st round picks in the first 4 seasons Hardy/Boselli/Taylor

You have to look at all of the draft to judge a GM and players, but I am too lazy to type all of that crap out. There is a little parity between the three clubs in picking late round winners, but nothing to make Casserly jump out or look really bad. David Carr is the pivotal swing pick.

The Jaguars, Saints, Texans are currently the only non championship teams in the NFL.

If we make a Bowl bid before season 9 rolls around, we are back up on the Jaguars. IF we win a Bowl, we break new ground again. The Jets own it at 9 seasons, not counting any of the stuff going on in the 50's and back.

It could happen.

We are on season 5. And here's the road map:

http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/CAR/4893094
GET GOOD COACH.
http://publicaffairs.cua.edu/cuamag/spr05/scoreboard/default.htm
GET GOOD GM. Teach GM his role.

Make the Coach "The Leader"
Make the GM fetch good players, like he would fetch good coffee.

The Pats work that way. The Seahawks went to the Super Bowl that way. We can do it that way.
 
The new Browns weren't technically expansion but they were as new as the 2002 Texans and made the playoffs in their 4th season - their only winning season since they re-emerged in '99.

Casserly was the man responsible for football operations. The coaches worked for him.
 
bottom line the Texans have been a failure & Casserly has some accountability to this equation, as does a rookie owner, enept coaching staff & players who just gave up. time to move on, he looked much better once Kubiak was hired, and seemed to work well during free agency as Gary handpicked his players & the draft. amazing how that works :cool:

the one thing that always bothered me about Casserly is he never fit in as a Houston Texan, never seemed to understand or relate well to the fans or placed any kind of priority on local talent, in all fairness the same could be said of Capers & thats why they have to both be lumped together in Texans history.

from here on out its Kubiaks baby, with no where to go but up with a local guy in charge :yahoo:
 
aj. said:
I think we will see a Rick Smith hire by tomorrow.
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Looking likely:

The Texans will no longer seek out more candidates for their general manager position. Today, they will start the second round of interviews by bringing in Denver Broncos assistant general manager Rick Smith.

Smith is a leading candidate for the vacancy, along with Reggie McKenzie, the Green Bay Packers' director of pro personnel. A second interview has not yet been set up with McKenzie, but it is still a possibility. Rick Mueller, the director of player personnel for the New Orleans Saints, is not expected to return for a second interview.
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Chronicle
 
beerlover said:
bottom line the Texans have been a failure & Casserly has some accountability to this equation, as does a rookie owner, enept coaching staff & players who just gave up. time to move on, he looked much better once Kubiak was hired, and seemed to work well during free agency as Gary handpicked his players & the draft. amazing how that works :cool:
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Well, if all of a sudden, he 'looks better" now with Kubiak, then isn't that a reflection of Capers and the coaching?

beerlover said:
the one thing that always bothered me about Casserly is he never fit in as a Houston Texan, never seemed to understand or relate well to the fans or placed any kind of priority on local talent, in all fairness the same could be said of Capers & thats why they have to both be lumped together in Texans history.

from here on out its Kubiaks baby, with no where to go but up with a local guy in charge :yahoo:
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What the hell is this "local" crud? Besides having Vince Young written all over it, that is not impartially evaluating talent. It shouldn't matter where the player is from, or kowtowing to a particular segment of college football fans.

"Bottom line" :rolleyes: is I stand by my earlier statement. And that is . . . none of you can still tell me what control Casserly had over what. How do you know that firing the coaching staff didn't solve the problem? In your zeal to "clean house", "throw everyone out the door", you just set it up so that you never ever will know what the real problem was.

__________________________
 
TwinSisters said:
this is the Bar to beat right now.

Two Expansion teams
old - Vikings - Winning season 4th / Super Bowl Ninth

Panthers - Championship 2nd/ Super Bowl Ninth
Jaguars - Championship 2nd/ No super Bowl/ 4 playoffs for 5 first seasons

We already lost out to the Panthers and Jags for 2nd season run.
We lost to the Jags for playoff winners.
Click to expand...


The early success of the Panthers and Jaguars screwed our franchise some. They came into the league in the early days of the salary cap and could take advantage of it by signing all sorts of free agents that other teams couldn't sign because they hadn't yet figured out how you could keep your good players and stay under the cap.

When the Texans came into the league, the rest of the owners didn't want us to succeed at their expense so they limited our draft choices and expansion draft. (Remember CC pleading with the league on some of these things?). The free agent market wasn't nearly as good as it was when the kittycats came into the league because for the most part, teams can keep their better players unless the player wanted silly money.
 
aj. said:
The new Browns weren't technically expansion but they were as new as the 2002 Texans and made the playoffs in their 4th season - their only winning season since they re-emerged in '99.

Casserly was the man responsible for football operations. The coaches worked for him.
Click to expand...

Yeah I didn't toss the Browns in because the Jags and Panthers both hit the playoffs in their second season. So we kinda lost that battle already. We already look like Saints/Buccaneers in that department.

Good point though too... another mark against Casserly
---

The Browns had differnet problems going on ... not sure if they had the same GM and their FO office was a complete wreck at times. I think they canned their GM after the playoffs too?!?

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front_office.php?id=197

Phil Savage Senior Vice President and General Manager

What a joke... like those generals from the Victorian period that would give themselves medals for having extra medals. As if Vice President is not enough, we have to have the "Senior" Vice President and then the General Manager to keep all the other Vice Presidents and Managers in line.

They look a lot more like a Casserly, then a Carolina or Patriots.

Should be interesting.... mmm

Maybe we should hire a Senior Vice Prime Head Coach Director Executive Chief.. that will certainly make us winners. "I didn't spend 20 years in the NFL to be called General Manager buddy... it's Senior Vice President Prime Director Chief Alpha Lord to you. Thank you very much"
 
There is no excuses, we had our chances and we were led by poor planning going into year 4. I was happy until the offseason last year where we made way too many personnel boo-boos. I'm glad to see Capers go considering he didn't want to change, and now I am glad to see Casserly go, he was just too much to stomach. It's a totally cleaned house so here we are at year 1 of a real NFL franchise and the expansion team is no longer here.
 
Texans_Chick said:
The early success of the Panthers and Jaguars screwed our franchise some. They came into the league in the early days of the salary cap and could take advantage of it by signing all sorts of free agents that other teams couldn't sign because they hadn't yet figured out how you could keep your good players and stay under the cap.
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Ahh yes. Very good point! It never gets simplier dammit... always more complicated. What's up with that!!!

It seems like the more you talk about it, the SIMPLIER it should it get...

time for some coffee.
 
TwinSisters said:
Ahh yes. Very good point! It never gets simplier dammit... always more complicated. What's up with that!!!

It seems like the more you talk about it, the SIMPLIER it should it get...

time for some coffee.
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At you service....:coffee:

Beignets are cooking as I type.
 
Runner said:
Which is the point of bringing up Joppru in this context. You have to be really out of it to pick a player who is going to be hurt for 3 years.
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Well at the time, he was considered a Faisano type prospect when he came out. He was highly ranked. He blocked extremly well . Had very soft hands and the speed to strech the feild. If I was in CC's seat I would of picked the guy also.
It was a great pick. Just didn't work out. Stuff happens. The draft is an art not a science. I think he did a good job with the tools that were available. I think the coaches got exactly what they asked for. I like the GM to ramble and gamble a bit with the picks. I wouldn't trade the four stars we ended up with for anything. Just sorry Carr's had to take the beating he's taken. CC & Capers were both doomed when the owners voted on the conditions of the expansion draft. We'll see what LA ends up with their deal in a couple of years.
 
threetoedpete said:
Well at the time, he was considered a Faisano type prospect when he came out. He was highly ranked. He blocked extremly well . Had very soft hands and the speed to strech the feild. If I was in CC's seat I would of picked the guy also.
It was a great pick. Just didn't work out. Stuff happens. The draft is an art not a science. I think he did a good job with the tools that were available. I think the coaches got exactly what they asked for. I like the GM to ramble and gamble a bit with the picks. I wouldn't trade the four stars we ended up with for anything. Just sorry Carr's had to take the beating he's taken. CC & Capers were both doomed when the owners voted on the conditions of the expansion draft. We'll see what LA ends up with their deal in a couple of years.
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I doubt there will be an expansion team in LA. Lots of rumors/prospects out there.

Bills and Jags lead the race, followed closely by the Saints. Too much money to be made there, the old guard aren't going to let a newbie owner have it.

Hell, Jerruh's always lookin to make another buck. He might cancel his new digs and move his team there.:heh:

The way things are going in Tenn. the locals there should have their fill of the Budster by then and run him out of town. :hunter:

Lots of options for LaLa land.

IMHO that is.

Were we discussing Casserly leaving??

:coffee:
 
There is not going to be an expansion draft to judge Casserly on in the near future. At best a team will be re-located by 2008, and like what was stated, there are a few teams that will do it.

I think New Orleans has just passed the Chargers in the race to LA. The Bills and Jacksonville have political clot to hold them steady, in Ralph Wilson and Jeb Bush respectively.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/06/060601-new-orleans.html

You can google up over a 1,000 stories about the civil engineering problems going on in New Orleans right now... it just does not look like good business sense to build a new stadium there right now and I personally would not feel all that good about dumping another 100,000,000 dollars into the Super Dome. That doesn't mean Benson doesn't, but ya do what you can I guess.
---

I am going to stick to Carr as the one move that Casserly is going to be judged on. If Carr succeeds, Casserly can keep pace with the draft picks the Panthers and Jaguars picked. And if Carr succeeds, we have a shot at closing in on a Super Bowl before season 9 and that will push us over the Jags and Panthers. ( true that the Jags and Panthers had better players early on, but that doesn't really effect their drafting as much in their first 4 seasons )

I think the Texans with Casserly did better then the Panthers already, but failed to top the Jaguars. Carr still needs to turn out better then Collins though ( even if you are going to pass the buck to Capers for both picks ).

Now the wildcard I suppose are the Browns... and this Phil Savage guy. They are in their 8th season right now... and IF they make a Bowl, that kills the Post Casserly New Bragging Rights Deal.
 
Cjeremy635 said:
I don't necessarily think that T.J. is a flop. I think he was drafted as a project and didn't quite fit into the scheme we were using last year (as did 95% of the team). I think he will be used correctly this year and will benefit a lot from the staff/scheme changes as will the rest of the team. :twocents:
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When you have David Pollack go off the board BEHIND you...that's a flop! Derrick Johnson went one slot ahead of TJ. The season before we traded away the farm to move up and get a third or fourth round "project" in Babin.
You're telling me Derrick Johnson wasn't more worthy of giving up picks to move up and get than Jason Babin????

I was ready to let Casserly go after Babin myself.
 
jayseed2002 said:
And thank God that TODAY is the LAST day of the Charley (opps) Casserly regime! I am wondering if he can take any of the BLOWN draft picks with him? This is like a washing of filthy hands! I just hope that Kubiack can try to fix what damage has been done. :yahoo:
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Give me an ever loving break. All GMs have their good decisions and their bad ones. Casserly had AJ, Carr, D-Davis, D-Rob. Not bad. He had some bad moves as well -- just like all GMs do.
 
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