they just need time to... gel

[HardKnockTexan]

Bring back bad memories??

I was a loyal fan of our old regime to a default. Seeing our young team constantly improve over the first 3 years had me sold on Capers plan regardless of what many posters on this board were saying. I bought into the philosophy of just giving our offensive line time to play together. All they needed was to learn eachother's playing style... they needed to gel. Well we all saw how well that worked out last season.

As much as I stood up for Capers and Co. last season made me open my eyes. I've loved just about every offseason move my team has made. Starting with getting Kubiak and Sherman. Our freeagency aquistions have been better than I could of ever hoped for. But I'm still worried about what I've been worried about since day 1.... our offensive line. Adding Flanagan to the unit will be a big upgrade but besides him our line is looking pretty much the same as last year. I thought Pitts did an outstanding job holding down the LT spot at the end of the year but the rest of the line stunk up the joint. I know we still have the draft and I'm hoping to snag a LT in the second round that slipped out of the first. I think that the biggest addition to our offensive line is going to be Sherman. So I'm going to go back to my old ways of blind, unwaivering loyalty and pray that all our offensive linemen needed was time to gel.

 

[Runner]

I was a loyal fan of our old regime to a default. Seeing our young team constantly improve over the first 3 years had me sold on Capers plan regardless of what many posters on this board were saying. I bought into the philosophy of just giving our offensive line time to play together. All they needed was to learn eachother's playing style... they needed to gel. Well we all saw how well that worked out last season.

Except of course the coaches didn't even let them do that. They changed the line, replacing a player at a critical position who would have been in his second year of starting and who probably would have improved from his previous year, as lineman tend to do once the first year of hard learning is done.

Not only did they replace him, they substituted a player who was well on the downside of his career, who had never played the position before, who's physical skill set did not match the scheme, who was in pathetic shape, and who in my opinion didn't understand what scheme there was.

 

[Bobo]

Bring back bad memories??

I was a loyal fan of our old regime to a default. Seeing our young team constantly improve over the first 3 years had me sold on Capers plan regardless of what many posters on this board were saying. I bought into the philosophy of just giving our offensive line time to play together. All they needed was to learn eachother's playing style... they needed to gel. Well we all saw how well that worked out last season.

As much as I stood up for Capers and Co. last season made me open my eyes. I've loved just about every offseason move my team has made. Starting with getting Kubiak and Sherman. Our freeagency aquistions have been better than I could of ever hoped for. But I'm still worried about what I've been worried about since day 1.... our offensive line. Adding Flanagan to the unit will be a big upgrade but besides him our line is looking pretty much the same as last year. I thought Pitts did an outstanding job holding down the LT spot at the end of the year but the rest of the line stunk up the joint. I know we still have the draft and I'm hoping to snag a LT in the second round that slipped out of the first. I think that the biggest addition to our offensive line is going to be Sherman. So I'm going to go back to my old ways of blind, unwaivering loyalty and pray that all our offensive linemen needed was time to gel.

The team should have stayed with Capers. It was headed in the right direction. Both Holmgren and Cowher had off years -- what if their teams would have fired them? The free agent acquisitions are nothing but a bunch of old, washed-up hasbeens that either nobody else really wanted or are completely irrelevant to what this team really needs. Though I was disappointed in last year's performance, I had confidence in how Capers was handling this team. I cannot say that for Kubiak and the rest of his cronies.

 

[dwilt72]

Except of course the coaches didn't even let them do that. They changed the line, replacing a player at a critical position who would have been in his second year of starting and who probably would have improved from his previous year, as lineman tend to do once the first year of hard learning is done.

Not only did they replace him, they substituted a player who was well on the downside of his career, who had never played the position before, who's physical skill set did not match the scheme, who was in pathetic shape, and who in my opinion didn't understand what scheme there was.

I agree. Wand seemed to get in the doghouse somehow. They let everyone play in the O-Line EXCEPT for him last year. With one year experience, you can't expect the guy to be an All-Pro!

 

[aj.]

I posted this on July 31, 2005 after watching a practice:

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=143107&postcount=20

Wand was in Pendry's doghouse for whatever reason and it showed. In addition to performance issues, there were obvious morale issues. Hopefully he will be one of those pleasant turnaround surprises this year under new guidance. New system - new coaching may be what the doc ordered for guys like him and .. gasp ....Weary.

 

[tulexan]

The team should have stayed with Capers. It was headed in the right direction. Both Holmgren and Cowher had off years -- what if their teams would have fired them? The free agent acquisitions are nothing but a bunch of old, washed-up hasbeens that either nobody else really wanted or are completely irrelevant to what this team really needs. Though I was disappointed in last year's performance, I had confidence in how Capers was handling this team. I cannot say that for Kubiak and the rest of his cronies.

It would be one thing if we just had a bad season, but when you listened to players you heard the same thing every game. They never made any adjustments in the second half. How many games were there last season where the Texans would be semi-competitive in the first half only to get blown out in the second half? There was also the 1 audible in the playbook that everyone in the NFL knew. What was the point of having an audible if once you do it, the other team now knows what you will be doing? I remember towards the middle of the season when Carr would call an audible you would see the opposing LBs pointing to watch for a run to the left.

Cowher and Holmgren had bad seasons like every other coach in the league, but neither of them ever had made so many coaching blunders like Capers and Co. Capers is a great guy, I've met him before and I really liked him, but this is a business and his team failed. I'm sure even Capers would tell you that there were a lot of things that he wished he didn't do. The whole situation spiraled out of control to a point of no return with Capers. I wish him the best in Miami but I'm glad that we have Kubiak here now.

 

[Bobo]

Cowher and Holmgren had bad seasons like every other coach in the league, but neither of them ever had made so many coaching blunders like Capers and Co. Capers is a great guy, I've met him before and I really liked him, but this is a business and his team failed. I'm sure even Capers would tell you that there were a lot of things that he wished he didn't do. The whole situation spiraled out of control to a point of no return with Capers. I wish him the best in Miami but I'm glad that we have Kubiak here now.

Whether Capers was "a great guy" or not is irrelevant. He was a great head coach as anybody can readily see by what he did with this team in its first three years and got a raw deal in Houston. His team did not fail any more than the Steelers and the Seahawks failed when they hit 6-10. It goes w/o saying that ANY coach would admit there were lots of things they wished they didn't do -- including Holmgren and Cowher. And the thing didn't "spiral out of control" any more than it "spiraled out of control" when Cowher and Holmgren went 6-10. I for one wish we would have stayed the course with Capers like the Seahawks and Steelers did with their coaches. I think the franchise and the fans will live to regret not sticking with the original regime and in time will look back at the Capers tenure with fondness compared to the years of disaster Kubiak will inflict on the Texans. I'm already regretting the decision to fire Capers. I have no confidence at all in Kubiak.

 

[tsip]

Whether Capers was "a great guy" or not is irrelevant. He was a great head coach as anybody can readily see by what he did with this team in its first three years and got a raw deal in Houston. His team did not fail any more than the Steelers and the Seahawks failed when they hit 6-10. It goes w/o saying that ANY coach would admit there were lots of things they wished they didn't do -- including Holmgren and Cowher. And the thing didn't "spiral out of control" any more than it "spiraled out of control" when Cowher and Holmgren went 6-10. I for one wish we would have stayed the course with Capers like the Seahawks and Steelers did with their coaches. I think the franchise and the fans will live to regret not sticking with the original regime and in time will look back at the Capers tenure with fondness compared to the years of disaster Kubiak will inflict on the Texans. I'm already regretting the decision to fire Capers. I have no confidence at all in Kubiak.

What were there this year, like 9 HC openings? If Capers is so good, why weren't these teams in the mkt for a HC knocking down his door? I think the Bills were his only interview--why weren't these other teams able to see that (according to you) the Texans did Dom wrong? Shoot, Capers couldn't even land a coordinators job like other fired coaches did, having to settle for a 'token' 1 year job in Miami as an Asst to the HC!!

Unfortunately, this argument will probally never be settled because it is doubtful that Capers will ever be a HC again. His reputation for rigidity in his deecision making is legendary and he won't learn from his mistakes and move forward. Personally, I didn't care for him because he never accepted blame for his teams losses, instead he always blamed the players for a lack of execution. In the real world, how many mgrs would be able to keep their jobs for 4 yrs by always blaming lack of results on subordinates? Heck, maybe one year but 'excuses' in the 'real world' work place are 'taboo.'...think about it this way, Bobo, any mgr can make excuses but not evey mgr can get results-especially in an acceptable time frame. Face it, the facts are there-- Capers did not get results, he made excuses...:brickwall

 

[infantrycak]

What were there this year, like 9 HC openings? If Capers is so good, why weren't these teams in the mkt for a HC knocking down his door?

FYI--as Vinny caught a while back, Bobo is a Titan's Fan--link. He isn't here to discuss the best interests of the Texans--just to

 

[MightyTExan]

Before the game to the players:

Capers: Don't lose the game guys!
Kubiak: Win the game guys! (I hope)

 

[Erratic Assassin]

Wand was in Pendry's doghouse for whatever reason and it showed. Hopefully he will be one of those pleasant turnaround surprises this year under new guidance.

I have concerns that Wand doesn't fit Kubiak's system. I just can't picture him having the athleticism to do things that Kubiak would need him to do.

 

[Runner]

I have concerns that Wand doesn't fit Kubiak's system. I just can't picture him having the athleticism to do things that Kubiak would need him to do.

He's fast and quick. Admittedly you need to look past his height and weight numbers to see that. His combine numbers show him just a little quicker than D'Brickashaw in the agility drills.

What he needs to fix is his technique in pass protection. That's it. That is something that is coachable, and something the Texans knew when they drafted him. However, we have done very little player development in the past 4 years. We now have coaches who will teach at practice, and I think people will be very surprised at who our LT is going to be and how well he will perform.

 

[TexansLucky13]

He's fast and quick. Admittedly you need to look past his height and weight numbers to see that. His combine numbers show him just a little quicker than D'Brickashaw in the agility drills.

What he needs to fix is his technique in pass protection. That's it. That is something that is coachable, and something the Texans knew when they drafted him. However, we have done very little player development in the past 4 years. We now have coaches who will teach at practice, and I think people will be very surprised at who our LT is going to be and how well he will perform.

I agree. The main problem with our O-line at the moment is switching from slow run blockers (like Todd Wade) to guys who can move quicker and have a bit more skill in the pass protection area. This is so that Kubiak will have flexibility on the line, which will work wonders with Reggie. Capers had a lot of slow guys on the line.... and IMO he just didnt understand how to fix it.

 

[infantrycak]

I have concerns that Wand doesn't fit Kubiak's system. I just can't picture him having the athleticism to do things that Kubiak would need him to do.

At least coming out of college Wand seemed like a text book description of what the Texans' would be looking for:

Positives: Very light on his feet for a player his size … Has the quickness needed to instantly get into the defender coming off the snap … Capable of moving laterally on pulls and traps … Has very good balance, keeping his feet on the move … Solid inline blocker with improved strength and hand usage … Very alert picking up stunts and twists … Has the frame to add more bulk with no loss in speed … Shows good kick slide and shuffle adjusting to the edge rush in pass protection … Bends his knees properly and fires off the ball with aggression.

Negatives: Needs to improve his playing strength, as he does not show the power needed to keep defenders from running over him and pushing him back into the pocket … Gets his hands up quickly, but is more of a finesse blocker than a mauler (defenders use rip moves to get into his chest to drive him back) … Needs to show a sense of urgency blocking for the ground game, as he is not always quick to locate and stalk the linebacker at the second level … Looks awkward coming out of his stance, as he does not keep a wide leg base and tends to lean and reach too much … Lack of arm-extension technique will see him slip off a few blocks rather than sustain … Does not show good hand punch in pass protection, which lets the defensive end escape and redirect inside … Has a documented learning disability that could pose problems digesting a complicated play book.

Link

He did improve his strength quite a bit and turned into a pretty good run blocker. He was one of the guys you could see down field trying to make 2nd level blocks. It will be interesting to see if the coaches think he fits in and how well good coaching can improve him if so.

 

[Texans_Chick]

Whether Capers was "a great guy" or not is irrelevant. He was a great head coach as anybody can readily see by what he did with this team in its first three years and got a raw deal in Houston. His team did not fail any more than the Steelers and the Seahawks failed when they hit 6-10. It goes w/o saying that ANY coach would admit there were lots of things they wished they didn't do -- including Holmgren and Cowher. And the thing didn't "spiral out of control" any more than it "spiraled out of control" when Cowher and Holmgren went 6-10. I for one wish we would have stayed the course with Capers like the Seahawks and Steelers did with their coaches. I think the franchise and the fans will live to regret not sticking with the original regime and in time will look back at the Capers tenure with fondness compared to the years of disaster Kubiak will inflict on the Texans. I'm already regretting the decision to fire Capers. I have no confidence at all in Kubiak.

Holmgren and Cowher had lots of stored good will. Something that Capers ran out of.

Holmgren and Cowher have had a history of great success as a head coach. Capers did not.

It is not a question of if Kubiak will get fired some day, usually it is a question of when, because with few exceptions, coaches all get fired. I can tell you, even if Kubiak is the worst coach ever to grace the NFL, there will be no one in the entire universe other than Bobo the Titanhick Troll that will be looking wistfully back at the ugly looking, sub .500 Capers era. (Even Dom Capers won't be looking back at it with admiration.)

 

[customdano]

I have much higher expectations. Multiple threats on the new offense, keeping the opposing team off gaurd with multiple players leaving the line of scrimmage all with definite "YAC" ability. Plus an improved O-line their not done yet! will make Defences think twice about blowing through The O-line "Make"em Pay" might mean something this year. Balance will be the key to The Texans success not AJ,DD & Carr Though they are all capable.When The team goes out on the field this year it will command respect because it will have the "I" removed from it. The opposing team will not know for sure that we will run the ball on 1st, 2nd. and then have to throw on third to a receiver that is triple covered,or one that will probably drop the ball in a clutch,during an all out blitz. Kubiak has stepped down off the podium and has put himself on the field with the Team. The summ of all their parts will be Greater than anyone of them as a whole......Go Texans

 

[Texas]

Are u gellin?

 

[TexanFan881]

Are u gellin?

I'm magellan

 

[done88]

Moving Mckinney to guard will be a shot in the arm for the left side of the line. Pitts, McKinney. Flanagan will be solid on the left. However the right side is still in limbo. Look for them to address right guard in the draft while letting everyone else fight for RT. IF they can get adequate play on the right side I just mean average this offense will explode.

 

[Runner]

Moving Mckinney to guard will be a shot in the arm for the left side of the line. Pitts, McKinney. Flanagan will be solid on the left. However the right side is still in limbo. Look for them to address right guard in the draft while letting everyone else fight for RT. IF they can get adequate play on the right side I just mean average this offense will explode.

Does anyone know if there is a difference in what you look for in a LG vs. RG? Why assume McKinney will be left guard and not right guard?

 

[run-david-run]

I would assume you would want your RG to be a very good run blocker, while your LG to be able to move lateraly to pull. Obviously both guards have to pull, but since teams run the the right more then 50% of the time (TE= extra blocker), you would think that the RG would have to be the best run blocker on the team...this is what I assume happens, if someone knows for sure, feel free to correct me.

 

[Grid]

Olines DO need time to gel. Just because it didnt work out for us doesnt make it a false statement. If I said the run opens up the pass.. and we attempted to do that and it didnt work, that doesnt mean that the run DOESNT open up the pass.

Bad coaching. We will see how things change next season.

 

[run-david-run]

On the "we need to gel" point, as much as all memebers of the MB, except Bobo, hate the Caperisms, this is true. We need consistency on the O-line, just like everywhere else, if we want to be succesfull. Last year our LT was released midway through the season, our RT was put on IR. Our center was moved to LG, our LG was moved to LT. Our LG/Center was then moved back to C as the rookie center who had outperformed him also was lost for the season. In the midst of all that our RG, who later moved to right tackel to allow our LT who was soon to be cut playing time at RG, was also hurt! Well, if that dosnt rap up our injury trubles nothing else will....

Oh, and through all that, the LT from the previous season when we had allowed a team low in sacks almost never saw the field depite being healthy!

 

[Runner]

I would assume you would want your RG to be a very good run blocker, while your LG to be able to move lateraly to pull. Obviously both guards have to pull, but since teams run the the right more then 50% of the time (TE= extra blocker), you would think that the RG would have to be the best run blocker on the team...this is what I assume happens, if someone knows for sure, feel free to correct me.

That's interesting - hopefully some others will weigh in on the topic to see if it is correct as well as interesting.

I made a thread a couple of months ago that tried to look at running stats over the history of the Texans. Looking at rushing averages and the way those averages changed as players moved around, a somewhat murky picture could be seen. Most surprising to me (since I'm not a big fan of his), McKinney seemed to be a pretty good run blocker at center and guard.

I'm going to throw a hypothetical question out there. Assume (for this discussion) it's determined that Pitts and McKinney are going to be the starting guards. Which sides would you put them on? According to r-d-r's theory, it would be Pitts at LG and McKinney at RG.

 

[run-david-run]

That's interesting - hopefully some others will weigh in on the topic to see if it is correct as well as interesting.

I made a thread a couple of months ago that tried to look at running stats over the history of the Texans. Looking at rushing averages and the way those averages changed as players moved around, a somewhat murky picture could be seen. Most surprising to me (since I'm not a big fan of his), McKinney seemed to be a pretty good run blocker at center and guard.

I'm going to throw a hypothetical question out there. Assume (for this discussion) it's determined that Pitts and McKinney are going to be the starting guards. Which sides would you put them on? According to r-d-r's theory, it would be Pitts at LG and McKinney at RG.

Would you then consider McKinney to be the best run blocker we have? At least on the interior? I would agree that Pitts is the more athletic of the two, but where would Weigert fit into all this? A lot of people have said McKinney is a good run blocker, but not an exceptional one. I think that when healthy (key words) our best guard line-up would be Pitts (LG) then Weigert (RG). However, a wildcard might be Seth Wand. I think that we have enough versatile linemen to where depth wont be a huge probelm next year, however, getting the correct combination of players out there will be quite challanging.

 

[Runner]

Would you then consider McKinney to be the best run blocker we have? At least on the interior?

Like I said it's a murky picture, especially on the inside due to the way they collect the stats. It looks like Milford Brown had a positive effect when he was finally allowed on the field. Maybe he was the best inside run blocker????

Here is my original thread with my analysis:
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=18519

Let me know what you think.

 

[run-david-run]

Like I said it's a murky picture, especially on the inside due to the way they collect the stats. It looks like Milford Brown had a positive effect when he was finally allowed on the field. Maybe he was the best inside run blocker????

Here is my original thread with my analysis:
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=18519

Let me know what you think.

I have to say, that is a hell of a post you made back there. From that, it looks like we need to get Pitts, McKinney and Wand on the field. Its strange that we did not run well of right-tackle, seeing as we also should have a TE there? Anyway, if Im building this team for the run, you would think that of the people we have now you would want some combination of Wand/Pitts at LT, MckInney/Pitts at LG, Flanagan at Center (not based on anything other then common sense), McKinney/Pitts/Weigert at RG and Wand/Pitts/Weigert at RT. Basically, we know Todd Wade is slow, we also know Todd Wade plays matador, we thought we knew he was a good run blocker, it seems we might be wrong.

Anyway, incoportaing everything:

On September whenver, when we start the new season against Philly, here is run-david-run's fantasy lineup, predraft:

LT-Chester Pitts LG-Steve McKinney C- Flanagan RG-Weigert RT-Seth Wand

I think this could be considered our best line-up, depending on Weigert's health. I think Pitts and Wand would be interchanable and we might even see them flipped around, but I think this could very well be the line-up that takes the field, and in my opinion the line-up that should take the field.

 

[TexansLucky13]

I will sure love to see when our 2nd-3rd round O-line picks go into action.... I'm excited about this years talent.

 

[run-david-run]

I will sure love to see when our 2nd-3rd round O-line picks go into action.... I'm excited about this years talent.

Assuming we use those picks on the O-line! JK. I would love to see Davin Joseph in a Texan uniform next year. He is a very good guard who even had time at LT last year...Chester Pitts 2.0!

 

[Texans_Chick]

Like I said it's a murky picture, especially on the inside due to the way they collect the stats. It looks like Milford Brown had a positive effect when he was finally allowed on the field. Maybe he was the best inside run blocker????

Here is my original thread with my analysis:
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=18519

Let me know what you think.

The thing that makes this stuff even murkier is that the hardest part of our schedule last year was at the beginning of the season. And AJ was OK, then hurt for a large part of the season, and then playing but not at his fastest. And allegedly the play book was opened more as the season progressed.

This matters because the better play of the offensive line as the season progressed may not be a result of this guy being way better than that guy, it just may be a part of the circumstances of play (easier competition combined with guys getting healthy).

Would Milford Brown look good against Pittsburgh's defense?

Would Todd Wade look better against the Rams?

(And as an aside, and at the risk of having rotten vegetables thrown in my general direction, I wonder what PBuc woulda looked like at the end of the season had he been healthy--getting to learn playing with his teammates more and playing easier competition. It seemed to me that his level of play was improving at the time he got hurt--that there was more discussion from the coaching staff that PBuc was learning to react more and having to think less. Just a random thought.)

Unless substantial changes are made to the Oline before next season, we will have an opportunity to see if it were more the coaching or more the talent. Even with good coaches, I would like to see better depth. (I am still traumatized from the Oline shuffle from the Seattle game).

I will keep chanting that FA, coaching and the draft will make everything mo better and hope it will make it true. Like the coaching changes, but I think we need more horses--we are young and we are old--it would be nice to have more quality talent in the in between ages but you got to grow it because teams don't give that away.

 

[infantrycak]

I would assume you would want your RG to be a very good run blocker, while your LG to be able to move lateraly to pull. Obviously both guards have to pull, but since teams run the the right more then 50% of the time (TE= extra blocker), you would think that the RG would have to be the best run blocker on the team...this is what I assume happens, if someone knows for sure, feel free to correct me.

What you are saying is conventional theory, but hasn't been reality for the Texans. The Texans have run more to the left (not by a huge amount, but more) than to the right.

For example, in his career DD has run 264 times to the right side and 296 times to the left.

 

[Runner]

Would Todd Wade look better against the Rams?

One of the more surprising totals to me was how poorly we ran around Wade's side in 2004. He played most of the season in 2004 although he was slowed by injury for a little while. It was his first year here and our zone blocking scheme was new. He just might not be the run blocker that we all assume he is.

 

[run-david-run]

So then, based on these numbers, who do we want starting September 10th?

 

[Ibar_Harry]

One of the more surprising totals to me was how poorly we ran around Wade's side in 2004. He played most of the season in 2004 although he was slowed by injury for a little while. It was his first year here and our zone blocking scheme was knew. He just might not be the run blocker that we all assume he is.

Most say he does not have the physique to be in a zone blocking scheme. He is a plow type blocker and that's why many feel he will be cut.

 

[infantrycak]

Most say he does not have the physique to be in a zone blocking scheme. He is a plow type blocker and that's why many feel he will be cut.

It isn't the physique, it is a question of his feet which at least last year appear to have already been encased by Tony Soprano in cement--they just haven't gotten him down to the river yet.

 

[Runner]

So then, based on these numbers, who do we want starting September 10th?

I wouldn't base it on those numbers alone of course, since they are only for running and unclear. I'd also take into account watching them play.

I'm going to make the following assumptions:

1) Only look at the players currently on the roster.

2) Putting the best line on the field trumps putting individual players in their best positions

Some others have discussed this in other recent threads, but I think:

Wand - Pitts - Flanagan - McKinney - Weigert

Then I'd coach them up to get the most from each player and to make them play as a unit.