kwayshauntay
Waterboy
Yes and on that play you'll notice Culliver was roundly chastised by Aikman for failing to turn around to find the ball, as well he should be.
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The improbable improvement of Kareem Jackson
- Thread starter b0ng
- Start date
Yes and on that play you'll notice Culliver was roundly chastised by Aikman for failing to turn around to find the ball, as well he should be.
kwayshauntay
Waterboy
Single frames don't tell you the whole story. Re-watch that play again, and you'll see Sean Smith at least attempts to turn his head to locate the ball. He first turns his head right, but is unable to locate the ball. He then turns his head left, and is unable to locate the ball, before finally Andre catches it. Sometimes, you get beat. He still displayed the basic instinct that all good cornerbacks have, which is to turn your head and try to locate the ball.
kwayshauntay
Waterboy
Like I said, overall the Miami game was a decent one for Kareem. He did more good than bad.
Among the good was this:
Well I'll be, he turned to locate the ball, how 'bout that. You can't overstate the importance of turning to locate the ball. Because he did so in this instance, he was not called for PI even though he bumped into Hartline. When you turn to locate the ball, you are given more leeway if contact occurs, because you have just as much right to the ball as the receiver, provided that you turn your head to locate the ball.
Among the few bad things he did this game was this, which should be old hat to all Texans fans:
(Two views of the same play)
For the past two seasons Texans fans have been subjected to far too much of the latter (not to mention Faggins and Reeves having that same shortcoming) and not enough of the former.
We need more of the former, and less of the latter.
The Miami game was a good start, so on to the next game...
Among the good was this:
Well I'll be, he turned to locate the ball, how 'bout that. You can't overstate the importance of turning to locate the ball. Because he did so in this instance, he was not called for PI even though he bumped into Hartline. When you turn to locate the ball, you are given more leeway if contact occurs, because you have just as much right to the ball as the receiver, provided that you turn your head to locate the ball.
Among the few bad things he did this game was this, which should be old hat to all Texans fans:
(Two views of the same play)
For the past two seasons Texans fans have been subjected to far too much of the latter (not to mention Faggins and Reeves having that same shortcoming) and not enough of the former.
We need more of the former, and less of the latter.
The Miami game was a good start, so on to the next game...
Antoine Cason (2008 1st round pick, 27th overall)
Cason was clearly ahead of the receiver at the start when he first saw the ball.
Even though he ended up a little bit in the trail position, he was really close enough.
He had a pretty good idea where the ball is going to go from the beginning.
This is one instance that the DB has to look for the ball.
Another reason here is that Cason was playing outside technique with safety help in the middle.
He didn't have to worry about the post route, and probably not the skinny post either (look at how far outside the numbers the safety got to.)
Reps for all the videos.
Great job!
Joseph talked about this on the radio this morning and said the same thing I've said before. Locating the ball is something you can work on, but being able to make plays on the ball consistently is something you either can do or can't do.
And you can't compare what Shawn Smith is doing while covering Andre Johnson to what Kareem is doing covering freaking Hartline...
But 76 is right. You aren't supposed to look for the ball when the receiver has a step or two on you. Not unless you see him start to slow down for the ball or once you have made up enough ground to comfortably do so.
That is when your instincts come into play...
Where I agree with others is that Kareem hasn't been great at finding the ball when running down field. When he's facing the action he's pretty good, but once he has to flip his hips and run he is lacking....BUT he has gotten much better in that area which is what's most important...
And you can't compare what Shawn Smith is doing while covering Andre Johnson to what Kareem is doing covering freaking Hartline...
But 76 is right. You aren't supposed to look for the ball when the receiver has a step or two on you. Not unless you see him start to slow down for the ball or once you have made up enough ground to comfortably do so.
That is when your instincts come into play...
Where I agree with others is that Kareem hasn't been great at finding the ball when running down field. When he's facing the action he's pretty good, but once he has to flip his hips and run he is lacking....BUT he has gotten much better in that area which is what's most important...
This is an instance where the DB should turn his head, we all agreed on that.
Like I said before, and Rey agreed, this is another instance where the DB should look for the ball.
He was all over AJ with his left hand, and he was somewhat ahead of the receiver.
However, he should not have turn his head twice.
He might have been able to play through the receiver after the first turn of the head (and unable to locate the ball).
I remembered incorrectly. It was Tarell Brown (2007 5th round pick) that had the head-turn, locate-the-ball play that stuck out in my mind (2:05 1st Quarter).
Culliver (2011 3rd round pick) did have that play you mentioned where he got away with a jersey grab. The point is, he still turned his head to locate the ball. He demonstrated that he has that basic cornerback instinct, at least on this play.
And also on this play
On similar plays, where the ball was underthrown, how many times the last two years have we seen Kareem never turn his head to locate the ball, and instead just flail and run into the guy?
Again, look at the position between the DB and the receiver.
In play one, the DB had a hand on the receiver's shoulder pad.
He was in phase with the receiver.
In play two, the DB was ahead of the receiver.
Both of those instances indicate that the DB can afford to turn his head.
kwayshauntay
Waterboy
So why didn't KJ turn his head on that Hartline completion? Or countless other completions the past two years?
Read Rey's post.
badboy
Hall of Fame
First let me say it takes for E--V--E---R to arrow past the video snaps you guys post but my point is if the defender is within say arm's reach of WR and a jump could impact the flight of ball, he should look back. If not at that distance he should be making up ground not looking for ball as he will not be part of the play.
kwayshauntay
Waterboy
I assume you mean this part of Rey's post:
So Brian freaking Hartline (Rey's words, but I share the sentiment) got a step or two on him, and he was unable to make up enough ground on Brian freaking Hartline to comfortably be able to turn and locate the ball. Is that supposed to make me feel better about Kareem?
So is JJo implying there is no hope for Kareem?
kwayshauntay
Waterboy
I agree with this post.
Badboy was saying that a DB should not blindly turn his head back to look at the ball.
I am not discussing about anything else the last couple of days, except for when a DB should look back for the ball.
BTW, I'm going back to watch some games from last year, and I noticed that on a PI call against Clyde Gates (Dolphins), KJ did look back to locate the ball.
This is another classic 2-man route where Quin was late to get back in the deep middle (the crosser was already taken care of).
This is at the 5:01 mark in the 2nd quarter.
At 13:19, Hartline almost pulled in a toe-tap 25-yd catch on pretty much the same route and defense as the one in the game this year.
Dan Fouts called it "good coverage by KJ... Perfect throw and catch."
Almost an incompletion.
I think JJo was just being honest.
Is Kareem elite? No. He's not. Are there corners with better ball skills and natural instincts than Kareem? Absolutely.
But football isn't played in a vacuum. It helps when you are a well rounded player. While KAreem doesn't have the deep coverage skill of some guys, when teams run out on the edge or throw short routes in front of him, he is almost money. Kareem does a lot of good things, and honestly I love his physicality out on the edge and in coverage. He's more physical than Joseph, but he doesn't have the ball skills, speed or fluidity.
But Joseph sometimes gets out-bodied by receivers if you haven't noticed. What makes Joseph a top corner IMO is that he consistently is able to make plays on the ball and his elite athleticism.
Revis even gets beat at times and he is like the perfect mixture or what you'd want in a corner. Physical in coverage, good speed, quickness, fluidity and tremendous ball skills.
If Kareem had those ball skills and all that other stuff he'd be an top tier or elite corner.
My main argument with 76 over Kareem was about his rookie year and how I felt like he was trying to excuse Kareem's shortcomings. I never felt like he couldn't improve. And well, he has. He is a decent to good starting corner in the NFL.
Can we find a corner with better ball skills? Probably. Can we find an overall better player there? Maybe.
IF the opportunity arises to possibly upgrade the position, we should do it.
But Kareem is no longer the liability he used to be. I think we should appreciate that. He's going to have some bad moments...All corners do.
Against the Saints, there was a play at 9:35 in the fourth where Brees threw a 27-yd TD to the TE Graham in the left corner of the end zone.
Graham lined up as a wide out with Quin playing as the RCB.
He (Quin) was in the trail position and never turned his head around.
With 3 mins left, Brees threw an incompletion to the right to Meachem.
JJo got beat on that out route; he never turned his head around.
(No time).
On both 2-point conversions, JJo was beaten by the receiver and never had time to look for the ball.
Graham lined up as a wide out with Quin playing as the RCB.
He (Quin) was in the trail position and never turned his head around.
With 3 mins left, Brees threw an incompletion to the right to Meachem.
JJo got beat on that out route; he never turned his head around.
(No time).
On both 2-point conversions, JJo was beaten by the receiver and never had time to look for the ball.
silvrhand
All Pro
Hartline doesn't have a lot of straight speed, but the dude is quick off the cut, placing first in all wide receivers in the 60 yard shuffle drill. It simply looks like Kareem underestimated him a bit.
Hartline finished tops among all wide receivers with a 10.92 in the 60-yard shuttle. In the three cone drill, he finished second among his position with a time of 6.65, while taking home fourth place in the 20-yard shuttle (4.12). Robiskie was fifth and eighth respectively, while not having an official time in the 60-yard shuttle. For comparison purposes, Georgias Knowshon Moreno clocked in at 11.63.
silvrhand
All Pro
Couple point heres:
- Kareem bit a bit on the out and up, and then got
- The pass was perfectly thrown, and a great catch.
- Daniel Manning was lined up over the top it seems, KJ was lined up inside which leads me to believe he might have help over the top.
- LOL Quinn straight up mugged his guy (side note)
It was a pretty damn nice throw and catch the one thing KJ did was try to play to the receivers hands/eyes and swat the ball out.
The one thing you guys aren't talking about as well that I think is overlooked is KJ is a very good tackler for a corner as well. He's not afraid to make the hard tackle, and he had several of them early on in the game and a nice hit on the receiver later in the game.
I agree he's not perfect, but I don't think the sky is falling with him either.
Against the Panthers, JJo gave up a 26-yd TD to Steve Smith in the first quarter.
He didn't pin the receiver to the side line; instead he was looking at the ball, hoping that Newton would make a mistake. There's a poor decision to try to locate the ball way too early.
With 8:58 to go in the third, KJ was step for step with the receiver LaFell; he didn't look back because the slot receiver was running a wheel route and KJ has yet to arrive to a point where he can pin the receive to the side line (too early in the stem - but he was about to); Newton had to throw the ball out of bound. The commentator called it "good coverage".
He didn't pin the receiver to the side line; instead he was looking at the ball, hoping that Newton would make a mistake. There's a poor decision to try to locate the ball way too early.
With 8:58 to go in the third, KJ was step for step with the receiver LaFell; he didn't look back because the slot receiver was running a wheel route and KJ has yet to arrive to a point where he can pin the receive to the side line (too early in the stem - but he was about to); Newton had to throw the ball out of bound. The commentator called it "good coverage".
ubecool454
Veteran
All I can say is that Kareem has a very tough job because Jonathan Joseph is not going to get many balls thrown his way. No CB in the league is not going to get beat sometimes. Maybe all you KJ haters would like to bring Demarcus Faggins back..lol. Since 2002 I can't think of but 2 CBs that were better than KJ and thats Joseph and Dunta...I won't put Aaron Glen in there because we got him when he was all washed up. If Wade likes KJ then I like him too.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Excuse me but WHAT? Aaron Glenn was 10 times the CB Dunta has ever been. He was so washed up he went to the pro bowl in 2002. He almost single handed won the game against Pittsburgh.
Almost? I would say he did win that game for us. AG was very much still a good Corner when he played for us starting off. He faded maybe his last year with us, but outside of that I was more than pleased with the job he did for us.
ubecool454
Veteran
Opinions are never right or wrong but 10 times..lol. I'm not comparing Dunta to Aaron Glen here. I'm just saying Kareem is far from the worst CB we have seen around here in our brief history.
Phillip Buchanon comes to mind.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
Not if I can help it.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I don't think KJ is as bad as people make out either. Call it 10 times or far better Glenn was not washed up when he got here and was in his time in Houston a far better CB than Dunta has ever sniffed at being.
He was also a very intelligent player - the kind it actually makes sense to talk about getting into coaching. He was brilliant at using his hands and subtle leans to shift WR's off their routes without getting calls by the refs (who he frequently talked to). You could also see him next to the kicking cage talking to Dunta and Faggins a bunch. During the games he was doing far more than the DB coach. Might be a reason Dunta's best season in the NFL was the one he spent with Glenn.
Oh and Glenn 3 time pro-bowler. Dunta - never will be pro-bowler.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Bolded is what I'd like to see KJ develop into with coaching.
I like the gifs, rep for you.
You make it sound as if we are saying the DB should never turn to locate the ball.
That's not what we're saying.'76 & I understand the importance of turning to locating the ball. Just pointing out that it isn't always necessary or practical.
I also don't think that was a bad play by Kareem. Could have been better, but not bad. The goal is to stop the receiver from catching the ball. But those guys usually catch balls or they sit on the bench or go home. So just because the receiver caught the ball, doesn't make it a bad play. It was a "difficult" catch.... I'll take that. There was no YAC, I'll take that.
The worst part of that play was how the receiver got past him. Kj got beat there & the receiver ran the route he wanted to, outside where Kj didn't have help.
I don't know '76, looks like a bad throw by Palmer, the receiver had to slow down, giving Cason time to catch up. Had that ball been ahead of that receiver, looking back & locating the ball would have been bad... like you said originally.
Cason recovered well, made a good play & looking for the ball allowed him to do so. But he was originally toast.
Best Kj post ever.
The only thing I will add is that if Kj is truly as smart as we were led to believe, he'll eventually figure out to be a top corner by maximizing the effects of what he can't do, & minimizing the effects of what he can't do. He may never lead the league in interceptions, but he can very well be the best at stopping the other guy from catching the ball.
Really not trying to defend Kj, especially not on this play. But if I were his DB Coach, the biggest thing I would "coach" Kj on is that the receiver never should have been allowed to get outside of him, so easily. There was just too much space for one man to cover. If Kj couldn't stop him from getting over there, he should at least have made him work for it, allowing our pass rush to get to the QB.
Hartline is running up & out, Kj is out of the play once he allowed Hartline to get outside & ahead of him.
It wasn't a good throw, but the CB sometimes plays underneath to look for the INT with inside safety help. We use J Jo that way at times. Even Dunta was used that way at times.
silvrhand
All Pro
76Texan, not in that raiders example, that's a rather bad example the receiver simply slowed down and was trying to head back to the ball giving the CB a huge advantage, if that ball is 5 more yards down the field that's 6 points for palmer. Both the CB/safety were beat on that.
The GB/SF example was much more in line with what you expect, but then again it's more than just getting your head back, it's knowing what to look for from the receiver to see he's getting the ball, to the sideline yelling "ball", the receivers eyes, all of that has to come into play to learn when to look back.
I understand where you come from, SH.
Let's not get to the part where both the CB and safety got beat yet.
We had Pollard with an INT his first year with the Texans on a play like this.
We rolled Pollard out without the QB suspecting it.
The QB thought the receiver had the CB beat, and Pollard ended up with an INT.
Every time the CB play this kind of leverage, we should expect some kind of safety help.
Sometimes we bait the offense into an INT, sometimes we lose.
If the D doesn't bait, the CB should play the receiver closer - and not the ball, like Cason did here.
At any rate, the CB's real concern is a sideline route by the receiver.
What I said was that the safety at least will take care of the skinny post and the post route.
This gives the CB more leeway to play more aggressively.
He chose to play the ball to look for an INT, and like you said, if it was a better throw, it would have been a long completion.
Our friend here who was good enough to put up the vid, wanted to show how the CB was able to "locate the ball" and defended the play.
It wasn't so.
I said it's good as long as the coverage called for the safety to help over the top; otherwise, it's a long completion for the offense.
This is a totally different scenario from a CB playing from a real trail position, and that was what I tried to explain to the poster who I gave plenty of kudos for putting up the vid.
We can see that if the CB was truly on an island with the receiver here, a good pass downfield and he would have been toast by "locating the ball".
A few other posters also agreed, locating the ball by turning the head needs to be done judicially, when the CB is in good position, otherwise he stands to lose much more often (it works sometimes on bad throws though - but that kind of defense is based on hope, if you know what I mean.)
Dude, wake up.
KJ gave up that play because he couldn't get into good enough position.
He needs to work harder to get into better position.
Rey's criticsim, I can understand 90-95% of the time.
Yours, not so much, I'm afraid.
OK, so I'm trying to understand here.
You said he still isn't locating the ball on deep route like he needs to be.
I hope you can explain to us what KJ needed to do here on this play.
And then maybe I can ask you to elaborate on some other plays later.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
he didnt turn to look for the ball, r put his hands up. saw same thing on two plays.......
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
I could be completely wrong on this but I'll run it by you guys, in particular 76's take on this;
KJ has a weakness in deep coverage, but a real strength in the shorter game.
KJ will be picked on throughout a game because the QB doesn't want to throw it Joseph's way, less of a KJ thing and more of a JoJo thing.
Therefore when KJ turns and runs he knows there is a high chance of the ball getting thrown his way.
What I see, is that KJ has improved at staying with his receiver, but doesn't have the ability to get that step ahead of the play to where he can make a play on the ball himself, so ends up making the receivers life as difficult as possible to catch the ball instead.
This would seem to me, to be a coached tendency. KJ gave up a few big plays down the stretch last year where he had really tight coverage and it was simply a great throw & catch by the offence, the Julio Jones one springs to mind.
Why would he look to make a play on the ball at the risk of giving up an easy catch for a whole bunch of yardage? I don't get where the problem is here. He makes life difficult for the receiver and is turning what is a weakness into something where he's forcing a great play by the receiver rather than gambling and risking a huge loss.
I'd much rather watch the Texans lose to a bunch of great plays by an opposing offense, than watch them lose to a bunch of easy plays because of poor coaching. I'd also much prefer them to win dominantly and only give up 1 FG on D. So I really won't complain.
76, 18 months ago I was highly skeptical of what you were saying about KJ being able to come good, what I saw last season was a steady improvement and what I see now is a mostly reliable #2 CB which is more than what half the league have at the position. That makes it a really good pick in my view.
Speaks volumes of the previous Defensive staff that they thought he could lead the team as a rookie, but its all worked out in the end.
KJ has a weakness in deep coverage, but a real strength in the shorter game.
KJ will be picked on throughout a game because the QB doesn't want to throw it Joseph's way, less of a KJ thing and more of a JoJo thing.
Therefore when KJ turns and runs he knows there is a high chance of the ball getting thrown his way.
What I see, is that KJ has improved at staying with his receiver, but doesn't have the ability to get that step ahead of the play to where he can make a play on the ball himself, so ends up making the receivers life as difficult as possible to catch the ball instead.
This would seem to me, to be a coached tendency. KJ gave up a few big plays down the stretch last year where he had really tight coverage and it was simply a great throw & catch by the offence, the Julio Jones one springs to mind.
Why would he look to make a play on the ball at the risk of giving up an easy catch for a whole bunch of yardage? I don't get where the problem is here. He makes life difficult for the receiver and is turning what is a weakness into something where he's forcing a great play by the receiver rather than gambling and risking a huge loss.
I'd much rather watch the Texans lose to a bunch of great plays by an opposing offense, than watch them lose to a bunch of easy plays because of poor coaching. I'd also much prefer them to win dominantly and only give up 1 FG on D. So I really won't complain.
76, 18 months ago I was highly skeptical of what you were saying about KJ being able to come good, what I saw last season was a steady improvement and what I see now is a mostly reliable #2 CB which is more than what half the league have at the position. That makes it a really good pick in my view.
Speaks volumes of the previous Defensive staff that they thought he could lead the team as a rookie, but its all worked out in the end.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
our just get pass interference called on him A LOT, which is what will happen
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
Think KJ found a way to improve on that front midway through last season? Not got the stats to hand but don't think you could say he did it 'A LOT'.
Also don't forget that sometimes a corner is put in a position where the choice is 50 yard PI or 70 yard TD and which is the better option to give up? I've seen him make that solid decision when beaten a couple of times and would frankly see that a sound decision making, again, it comes down to minimizing a weakness.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
key word is sometimes. but how often does KJ ever look back for the ball ???
I think it speaks volumes about coach speak. We can not believe everything they tell us. They are going to say the least damaging thing about the organization.
The Texans had already told Dunta, "See ya!!" then they wasted too much time with Boden. By the time they figured we weren't getting Boden, the FA market for CBs dried up. We didn't have any players worth entertaining a trade & they did not want to (I presume) deal any draft picks.
They can not say, "Well, we screwed that up guys..... " Instead, they say, "We feel pretty good with what we've got."
Coach speak. They knew they were going to struggle.
Excellent!
Right there is the core.
If KJ can get past that stage (and really, a lot of it is mental), I think he can be a bona-fide CB in this league.
IMO, KJ is a solid #2 CB due to his overall skill set.
He has got to take the next step if he wants to be a shutdown at #2 and/or a solid at #1.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
Well all i know is that if a CB doesnt "TRY" to locate the ball they often get PI calls on them. So he needs to Pretend he is looking for it at the very least. I dont see how its a good thing that he never tries to locate the ball.
If i was an O.C i would go deep against KJ every play hell he would get PI called against him 2 out of 4 plays if he was even close enough to touch the WR.
Another thing I think should be taken into great consideration.
The more you see the SS coming down to play the run, the more you know the DC is condifent in the CBs.
The DC would feel more confident to send in a Safety blitz when he feels like his CBs can handle it on an island.
Let's not compare KJ with a cover 2 corner.
He played a good part in Wade's scheme last year; I expect him to do more this year.
I kid you not, Wade will take KJ over any CB he had with the Cowboys (at least the last 2 years I watched them play under Wade).
The more you see the SS coming down to play the run, the more you know the DC is condifent in the CBs.
The DC would feel more confident to send in a Safety blitz when he feels like his CBs can handle it on an island.
Let's not compare KJ with a cover 2 corner.
He played a good part in Wade's scheme last year; I expect him to do more this year.
I kid you not, Wade will take KJ over any CB he had with the Cowboys (at least the last 2 years I watched them play under Wade).
I hope you're a OC!
But that is besides the point.
Like I said, I don't dislike you Ellis. But you never talk about techniques and how the DB should play besides "pretending".
You certainly can have your opinion.
I respond to your opinions more often than I should.
Truly, you should read many posts (not just mine) in response to your concern.
Simply Crying is the same as Obama's hoping, sorry to say (I don't dislike Obama either, LOL!)
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
Dude come on.
are you telling me a CB wont get flagged for PI more often than not if he dont turn to locate the ball ??? This right here is common knowledge that even the least interested fan knows.