Wish to make a one time donation? Make it here.

Texans promote TE coach Tim Kelly to be the OC

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
The collaborative play call can work, but you have to have one person who is definitely in charge. The outside input can be good and help prevent the play caller from becoming blinded by their tunnel vision. One person has to be steering the ship, though. If it is play call be committee, that is not going to work.
I always envisioned this really only working if it went something like this.

Play caller: "I'm calling X play, you guys have 10 seconds to tell me something you saw that makes that a bad idea. If not then I'm calling it in."
When OB said it was a collabortive effort, I don't think he meant play to play every play. The collabortive part comes into play when game planning. They agree to which call should be made for specific down & distance as well as score and clock situations. It's not easy being a NFL HC regardless of what many on this board think
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Personally I think this was a way for BoB to kill multiple birds with one stone. BoB clearly likes the kid and wants to mentor him and likewise BoB also, right or wrong, still wants to do the job of the OC and be the primary play caller. With this change BoB is able to give the kid a promotion and his break in NFL coaching, sure all of us will agree your first job in any industry is the hardest to get, while also mentoring him and teaching him. At the same time BoB can continue to be the main play caller without having the kickback that an experienced OC might give him. The fact that now he can point and say "look we've hired an OC" is just the cherry on top.

I really don't think this is them get ready to have a scapegoat or a plan in place when it all fails, seriously some of you must think the Texans are the damn Legion of Doom with all the evil masterminds you think are in that place. I think this is BoB seeing a chance to help out a kid he likes while also following through on what he believes to be a winning plan. I can almost guarantee you that after every game they will be sitting in the film room and BoB asking him "What play would you have called here." or "What did I see that made me call that play." Typical mentor/student stuff.

Now my personal feeling are I don't really care for the job BoB has done as OC and I don't like that the Texans are the training ground for the new coach. Everyone has to get their start somewhere but you may not want it to be your business they get that start in. I would feel much better, as of this posting, if he was getting his first OC job for say the Jags or Colts. Who knows though, the kid may turn out to be a natural at it and after proving himself BoB turn the job fully over to him. I don't think that will happen but then I didn't think Watson would be setting NFL records his first full year either or that we would have a winning season in 2018 so yeah there's that.

All in all though its done and nothing said here will change it so all we can do is hope for the best and brace ourselves for the worst.
I dont recall this kind of uproar when Kubiak promoted Lil Shanny to OC and Kubiak called the plays Lil Shanny's 1st yr as OC.

Fact is because it's BOB some on this MB aren't going to like who he hires regarless, even though last yr with a crap OL BOB's offense scored more points than any in franchise history, save one season.

BOB is going to be calling plays again this season whether some on this MB like it or not and he should be after finishing 11-5 with the lack of talent on offense he had to work with. Kelly will help with game planning and halftime adjustments etc... as it should be for a 1st time OC just getting his feet wet.

Fix the OL and get another WR that can stretch the field and then I've got a feeling people will be happy with the offense. Well atleast some people some posters will be happy. Some wont be happy regardless of what happens.

Can you imagine if BOB had called the pass plays Payton did in NFC championship game? This MB would have gone crazy. Even though it was the right call with Greg the Leg being able to kick 60 + yd FG's.
 

infantrycak

Admin & Mod
I dont recall this kind of uproar when Kubiak promoted Lil Shanny to OC and Kubiak called the plays Lil Shanny's 1st yr as OC.

Fact is because it's BOB some on this MB aren't going to like who he hires regarless, even though last yr with a crap OL BOB's offense scored more points than any in franchise history, save one season.

....
Little Shanny grew up at the knee of an offensive mind and with Elway & Kubiak as older brothers. There is no comparison.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JB

ArlingtonTexan

Moderator
Staff member
Little Shanny grew up at the knee of an offensive mind and with Elway & Kubiak as older brothers. There is no comparison.
yes, but BOB is hardly unique in this sort of internal (or even external) hiring of someone w/o lots of experience to be OC, especially this year. Sort of in the water at the moment, for whatever the reason
 

xtruroyaltyx

Hall of Fame
yes, but BOB is hardly unique in this sort of internal (or even external) hiring of someone w/o lots of experience to be OC, especially this year. Sort of in the water at the moment, for whatever the reason
Don’t think lack of experience is the issue. More so that the experience he does have has been mostly defensively and his offensive resume isn’t all that.

—————-

After saying that I feel the need to also say I don’t care who OB hires. I don’t think he’s going to lead this team anywhere regardless.
 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
Fact is because it's BOB some on this MB aren't going to like who he hires regarless, even though last yr with a crap OL BOB's offense scored more points than any in franchise history, save one season.
I don't like it because it's still OBs offense, which hasn't been all that for 5 years.

And you keep bringing up the 2nd most points thing. You do realize they were 18th in offensive TD, right? And 2nd most points was still 11th in the league.

Need a FG? Can't beat an OB offense for that. Need a TD? Can't help you there.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
I don't like it because it's still OBs offense, which hasn't been all that for 5 years.

And you keep bringing up the 2nd most points thing. You do realize they were 18th in offensive TD, right? And 2nd most points was still 11th in the league.

Need a FG? Can't beat an OB offense for that. Need a TD? Can't help you there.
They were actually 15th in offensive points per game and 20th in offensive TDs per game.

The only reason it's the most in team history is because the league has changed the rules and there's a lot more scoring now.
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
They were actually 15th in offensive points per game and 20th in offensive TDs per game.

The only reason it's the most in team history is because the league has changed the rules and there's a lot more scoring now.
What is the timeframe of "now"? There are definitely more individual teams that saw a scoring rise in 2018, but not sure that translates league-wide trend spanning multiple years. 2018 was only the second time that the league average was over 23 points per game. The only other time was in 2013. 2017 was the lowest scoring season in a decade.

Outside of 2018 and 2013, the fluctuation over the last decade has been +/- 1 point range (21.7 to 22.8).

I'm not calling OB an offensive genius, guru or anything like that. BUT, in a league where the total average increase over the last 4 years has been 0.5 points, he has increased the Texans scoring average 5.2 points. So it can be argued that the Texans scoring has improved because of more than an uptick in overall scoring around the league. That being said, we were starting with a fairly low bar so everything is taken with a grain of salt. Remember I'm not advocating him for being enshrined in Canton for is play-calling. But to say the only reason the Texans had the most points in team history is because everyone is scoring more these days, then we are either not looking at the data correctly or translating a league-wide one year blip in scoring as a trend or baseline.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
I don't like it because it's still OBs offense, which hasn't been all that for 5 years.

And you keep bringing up the 2nd most points thing. You do realize they were 18th in offensive TD, right? And 2nd most points was still 11th in the league.

Need a FG? Can't beat an OB offense for that. Need a TD? Can't help you there.
Then tell me why Kubiak offenses didn't score more?
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Don't even compare the two. Kubiak came in here as a proven SB OC and multiple SB offensive mind and Kyle was known to be 'aligned'. And lots more to being OC than calling plays
I agree, are you saying BOB/Kelly aren't going to be aligned?
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
What is the timeframe of "now"? There are definitely more individual teams that saw a scoring rise in 2018, but not sure that translates league-wide trend spanning multiple years. 2018 was only the second time that the league average was over 23 points per game. The only other time was in 2013. 2017 was the lowest scoring season in a decade.

Outside of 2018 and 2013, the fluctuation over the last decade has been +/- 1 point range (21.7 to 22.8).

I'm not calling OB an offensive genius, guru or anything like that. BUT, in a league where the total average increase over the last 4 years has been 0.5 points, he has increased the Texans scoring average 5.2 points. So it can be argued that the Texans scoring has improved because of more than an uptick in overall scoring around the league. That being said, we were starting with a fairly low bar so everything is taken with a grain of salt. Remember I'm not advocating him for being enshrined in Canton for is play-calling. But to say the only reason the Texans had the most points in team history is because everyone is scoring more these days, then we are either not looking at the data correctly or translating a league-wide one year blip in scoring as a trend or baseline.

Hmm, this may have to do with averaging in bad teams that score very little. There are many articles on increased offense in the nfl even beyond just recovering last year's dip.
Here's one:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25459151/nfl-2018-offensive-scoring-explosion-numbers

For the first time in the NFL's 99-year history, two teams scored 50 points in the same regulation game last month. The Los Angeles Rams' 54-51 victory over the Kansas City Chiefsunderscored a season-long explosion of offensive production, a trend that has energized fans and coincided with a notable rise in television ratings.

Through the first 13 weeks of the 2018 campaign, the NFL is averaging more points (47.8), yards (718.4) and passing touchdowns (3.5) per game than at any similar point in its history. Expected points added (EPA) -- a measure of each play's change in net point advantage for the offense, based on down, distance and yard line at each snap -- has increased nearly 1,200 points from 2017, a massive jump.


The numbers represent a course correction after a one-year dip last season, but the roots reveal boundless opportunity for future expansion. NFL offenses have enjoyed a steady rise for 40 years, ever since the league adjusted a series of rules in 1978 to end the "dead ball" era and encourage more scoring. But 2018 has produced a sharp spike even beyond that trend.
 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
2017 was the lowest scoring season in a decade.
True, but 6 of the 10 highest scoring seasons in since 1950 have happened since 2012.

Since scoring is up

Remind me what the score of the SB was?
Seriously? Out of 267 NFL games you're going to have a clunker every so often. If you're going to use 1 game to make a judgement, then you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, which that's no secret anyway.
 

BigBull

Rookie
Yep, relative to the league scoring of his time, kubiak had a much higher ranked offense. OBs highest offensive points per game finish is 15th yet he it's the most in team history because of the general rise in scoring around the league
And yet OB has been a better hc in his first five years than Kubiak. 43-38, 3 division titles, and 1-3 in the payoffs compared 37-43, no division titles, no playoff appearances in Kubiak’s first 5 seasons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
True, but 6 of the 10 highest scoring seasons in since 1950 have happened since 2012.
Right. I didn't say scoring wasn't up. Looking over the last 20 years, you see 10-20 years ago scoring was in the 20-21 point range. You see in the last six years or so that scoring is in the 22-23 range. A 3-point swing at best over a 20 year period isn't explosive, while there are still some individual teams that are.

Nor has it been a linear increase. The highest season was 2013, then 2014-2016 were almost the exact same average between 22.6 and 22.8, followed by a 10-year low of 21.7, then finally 2018 which still trailed 2013. But the league had been averaging around 21-22 since around 2006 I think so there wasn't a step change difference in a given year or two. It's been evolving higher for decades.

The only point I was trying to make was there was no smoking gun related to the league average being solely responsible for the Texans improving their scoring by 5+ points over the last few years.
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
Hmm, this may have to do with averaging in bad teams that score very little. There are many articles on increased offense in the nfl even beyond just recovering last year's dip.
Here's one:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25459151/nfl-2018-offensive-scoring-explosion-numbers

For the first time in the NFL's 99-year history, two teams scored 50 points in the same regulation game last month. The Los Angeles Rams' 54-51 victory over the Kansas City Chiefsunderscored a season-long explosion of offensive production, a trend that has energized fans and coincided with a notable rise in television ratings.

Through the first 13 weeks of the 2018 campaign, the NFL is averaging more points (47.8), yards (718.4) and passing touchdowns (3.5) per game than at any similar point in its history. Expected points added (EPA) -- a measure of each play's change in net point advantage for the offense, based on down, distance and yard line at each snap -- has increased nearly 1,200 points from 2017, a massive jump.


The numbers represent a course correction after a one-year dip last season, but the roots reveal boundless opportunity for future expansion. NFL offenses have enjoyed a steady rise for 40 years, ever since the league adjusted a series of rules in 1978 to end the "dead ball" era and encourage more scoring. But 2018 has produced a sharp spike even beyond that trend.
I totally agree that while the league overall is evolving slowly by a point or so every several years, there are certain teams recently that have done an amazing job of maximizing offensive potential in this era of offensive friendly rules. Which probably does show that there are still a lot of teams that haven't adapted and/or really suck at offense.

Also, any numbers I quoted were per team, not per game. I also found in the data that return TD's were almost non-existent these days while passing TD's have increased. Obviously a result of new rules around kickoffs.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
True, but 6 of the 10 highest scoring seasons in since 1950 have happened since 2012.



Seriously? Out of 267 NFL games you're going to have a clunker every so often. If you're going to use 1 game to make a judgement, then you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, which that's no secret anyway.
Go throughout the playoffs and other than the Pats/Chiefs scoring was down.
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
Go throughout the playoffs and other than the Pats/Chiefs scoring was down.
Outside of the Wildcard games, it wasn't as big of difference as you think.

Conference Championships - average of 29 points per team

Divisional Round - averaged 25 points per team

Wildcard Round - averaged 18 points per team

Chiefs, Rams, Chargers, Patriots all scored at least 28 points in a game this post-season.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Outside of the Wildcard games, it wasn't as big of difference as you think.

Conference Championships - average of 29 points per team

Divisional Round - averaged 25 points per team

Wildcard Round - averaged 18 points per team

Chiefs, Rams, Chargers, Patriots all scored at least 28 points in a game this post-season.
The Pats/Chiefs game inflated the Championship games. It took overtime for the Saints/Rams game to hit that number.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Bill Obrien offenses have averaged 12.5 points over 4 games in the playoffs...and that includes 2 TDs that started in the opponents redzone thanks to the defense and special teams forcing turnovers.

Take those out and he's averaging 9 points per game.
 
Last edited:
Putting on my tin hat for a minute I also notice that announcers and various other talking heads are really pushing how scores are up and the game is faster pace and how explosive offenses are, etc. I find it interesting that this is the narrative after ratings dropped so much and everyone was calling it the no fun league.

High scoring games and explosive offenses are fun to watch and get more viewers in. So in 17 we have a low scoring game, a political issue with the whole kneeling thing and almost draconic refs when it came to celebrations. so next year we have no political issues, and you know the owners talked to their teams about that, celebrations back and a very high scoring season. :thinking:

Of course I've been question how much influence the league has over the games ever since that issue with the Rams and Saints. The league pushes for another team in LA to get than Callie money and, boom, all of a sudden they are in the bowl because of a bad ref call that the league can't do anything about......even though the rules actually say they can.
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Little Shanny grew up at the knee of an offensive mind and with Elway & Kubiak as older brothers. There is no comparison.
Not to mention Kubiak knew how to call plays.

If O'Brien was consistently calling plays exploiting whatever defense we played against, he could promote Devlin to OC for all I care.

But he don't & first year head coaches regularly out coach him.
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Kubiak built an offense that played 12 minute drives. He knew how to do that. OB doesn't.
Shouldn't take the bait. Kubiak's offenses scored more when he had a QB that fit his system.

We scored the 2nd most points in team history because we have a qb that throws 3+ TDs a game. Kubiak didn't have that. He had a guy who under threw his receivers on purpose.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Shouldn't take the bait. Kubiak's offenses scored more when he had a QB that fit his system.

We scored the 2nd most points in team history because we have a qb that throws 3+ TDs a game. Kubiak didn't have that. He had a guy who under threw his receivers on purpose.
Tell me how many yds did Schaub throw for his 1st yr here? Where was he ranked?
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
And yet OB has been a better hc in his first five years than Kubiak. 43-38, 3 division titles, and 1-3 in the payoffs compared 37-43, no division titles, no playoff appearances in Kubiak’s first 5 seasons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Imo, O'Brien started with better talent and has faced weaker competition (still heavily reliant on Hopkins and watt from the kubiak era). The best teams in franchise history were the 2011-12 Texans and they had a legit chance to win it all of not for the schaub injury.

Kubiak also proved hes a much better coach in his subsequent stints in Baltimore and Denver.
 

BigBull

Rookie
Imo, O'Brien started with better talent and has faced weaker competition (still heavily reliant on Hopkins and watt from the kubiak era). The best teams in franchise history were the 2011-12 Texans and they had a legit chance to win it all of not for the schaub injury.

Kubiak also proved hes a much better coach in his subsequent stints in Baltimore and Denver.
Except that the division is the best that has ever been top to bottom. This weaker competition view is complete bs. Let’s be honest OB turn the roster over quiet a bit the first two seasons. Maybe there wasn’t as much talent as you think there was. He proved he could take an all star defense and hall of fame qb to a Super Bowl a team that Fox already had knocking on the door of the Super Bowl. He did do a good job as oc in Baltimore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Except that the division is the best that has ever been top to bottom. This weaker competition view is complete bs. Let’s be honest OB turn the roster over quiet a bit the first two seasons. Maybe there wasn’t as much talent as you think there was. He proved he could take an all star defense and hall of fame qb to a Super Bowl a team that Fox already had knocking on the door of the Super Bowl. He did do a good job as oc in Baltimore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Texans have had some of the weakest schedules under obrien.

Yes there has been roster turnover. Good moves on defense, bad on offense.
 

BigBull

Rookie
Texans have had some of the weakest schedules under obrien.

Yes there has been roster turnover. Good moves on defense, bad on offense.
At the end of day a head coach’s job is to win and in his first five seasons OB did it better than Kubiak did his first five seasons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Except that the division is the best that has ever been top to bottom. This weaker competition view is complete bs. Let’s be honest OB turn the roster over quiet a bit the first two seasons. Maybe there wasn’t as much talent as you think there was. He proved he could take an all star defense and hall of fame qb to a Super Bowl a team that Fox already had knocking on the door of the Super Bowl. He did do a good job as oc in Baltimore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But then they got destroyed by a division rival on the playoffs.

I don't think the fact that Kubiak could win a super bowl in his first year is much of a criticism. Yeah it was built by other people but he finished the job. He proved in Houston and Baltimore that be could build good offenses
 

xtruroyaltyx

Hall of Fame
And yet OB has been a better hc in his first five years than Kubiak. 43-38, 3 division titles, and 1-3 in the payoffs compared 37-43, no division titles, no playoff appearances in Kubiak’s first 5 seasons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In a division that has been the worse it’s been overall.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Tell me who led the league in passing with the 31st rushing offense. 4770 yds

With wait NOBODY across from AJ. Kevin Walter and OD. Slow white guy and slower white guy.

Somehow they were always open. OB can't do that..
You loved Walter and railed against the Fuller pick. Now all of a sudden Walter was a liability. Kubiak had AJ/AF/OD to work with.. You're making those guys sound like chopped liver.

Next year I expect great improvement in the offense. Obviously you don't.
 

infantrycak

Admin & Mod
You loved Walter and railed against the Fuller pick. Now all of a sudden Walter was a liability. Kubiak had AJ/AF/OD to work with.. You're making those guys sound like chopped liver.

Next year I expect great improvement in the offense. Obviously you don't.
Lol, Kubiak made Walter & OD. They were great scheme players. Always said that. You always wanted speed. I'd been thru Bob Hayes & Alvin Harper. Speed doesn't kill. Catching does. OD didn't have speed to beat anyone. Schemed he was wide the fu@k open. Caught a 20 yd key pass on the way to the SB. Nobody in sight. When was the last time OB drew up a wide open play?
 

Shishkabob

All Pro
Lol, Kubiak made Walter & OD. They were great scheme players. Always said that. You always wanted speed. I'd been thru Bob Hayes & Alvin Harper. Speed doesn't kill. Catching does. OD didn't have speed to beat anyone. Schemed he was wide the fu@k open. Caught a 20 yd key pass on the way to the SB. Nobody in sight. When was the last time OB drew up a wide open play?
Nuk had a wide open catch against Miami, and Jacksonville. Those are to quick ones I can think of off the top of my head
 

infantrycak

Admin & Mod
Nuk had a wide open catch against Miami, and Jacksonville. Those are to quick ones I can think of off the top of my head
Nuk is a Hall player. Talking about making ordinary players great.

Just for the record, OD was a Casserly pick. Kubiak was going to go with the safety but said Casserly convinced him to take OD. Obviously worked since OD followed to Baltimore & Denver.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Nuk had a wide open catch against Miami, and Jacksonville. Those are to quick ones I can think of off the top of my head
Yep, some posters seem to romanticise the past. Any offense with AJ/AF should look good. Daniels was a much better weapon than Cak makes him out to be.

Kubiak was very good at scheming guys open. BOB isn't as bad as Cak makes him out to be He just prefers the WC system over the EP system.

Let's fix the OL and find a Wr and see what happens.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Nuk is a Hall player. Talking about making ordinary players great.

Just for the record, OD was a Casserly pick. Kubiak was going to go with the safety but said Casserly convinced him to take OD. Obviously worked since OD followed to Baltimore & Denver.
So was AJ, tell me who on the current roster is AF or DB etc...
 

infantrycak

Admin & Mod
I don't give 2 sh!its about system. I want it to work. Ours looks nothing like New England or Pittsburgh.

Norv Turner was run and long ball. Do it well. I don't care how you do it, just do it.

OB sucks on O.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
I don't give 2 sh!its about system. I want it to work. Ours looks nothing like New England or Pittsburgh.

Norv Turner was run and long ball. Do it well. I don't care how you do it, just do it.

OB sucks on O.
Give him some talent to work with next season and we'll see. That's the good thing.
 


Top