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Texans 1.3 Pick Derek Stingley Jr.

SnakeEyes

Under NRG
My concern point 2: how good will Sting be.

My concern point 1: how long and what level of good will he be.

My concern point 3: how soon does he re-injure?
1 and 3 are my worries. And I hope even if he is a 5yr and can't go he still doesn't have any issues with the foot. As far as 2...if he is top 10-15 of CBs. I wouldn’t love it but it could be much worse.
 

Lucky

Trust Me. I Know What I'm Doing.
Staff member
Stingley may be good. Or not good.
If good, how good?
If good, then when is he re-injured?
If re-injured, will he become good again? And how good?
If Stingley becomes not good at any time, who takes the blame? Lovie or Lovie?
 

SnakeEyes

Under NRG
Stingley may be good. Or not good.
If good, how good?
If good, then when is he re-injured?
If re-injured, will he become good again? And how good?
If Stingley becomes not good at any time, who takes the blame? Lovie or Lovie?
Honestly it has to be him. Nick Caserio picked him, but due to what Lovie said after talking to him and to Gardner. AKA Stingley is the type of CB that has the skills I want in my CBs for my system. As they reported after the draft if I remember correctly
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
He is the person who attended both Stingley/Sauces workouts.
I'm not sure that Lovie made the actual pick. According to Nick, there were a lot of spirited discussions by the coaches right up until the pick was made. Nick said he didn't think Lovie would have been upset if the pick had gone in a different direction. Sounds like defensive coaches may have won the debate for pick #3. Of course, the Defensive Coordinator would concur. No surprise the Offense and Warhop got the next pick.
 
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Texian

Hall of Fame
I'm not sure that Lovie made the actual pick. According to Nick, there were a lot of spirited discussions by the coaches right up until the pick. Nick said he didn't think Lovie would have been upset if the pick had gone in a different direction. Sounds like defensive coaches may have won the debate for pick #3. Of course, the Defensive Coordinator would concur. No surprise the Offense and Warhop got the next pick.
On a philosophical level, this is not really successful winning leadership. This is more like groupthink and herd mentality. This mob mentality presents a void in a single long term vision and a long-term term plan of how to win, now and in the future. This current behavior is living in the moment thinking. This kind and type of management style have a proven record and has been a recipe for mediocrity, and average and ordinary that Texans fans have come to expect and have known for the last 20 years.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
On a philosophical level this is not real successful winning leadership. This is more like group think and herd mentality. This mob mentality presents a void in a single long term vision and a long term plan of how to win, now and in the future. It's living in the moment thinking. This management style has a proven record and recipe for mediocrity, average and ordinary that Texans fans have come to expect and have known for the last 20 years.
So listening to your coaches/scouts is a bad thing? Not listening to these people has been going on for far to long down on Kirby.

This comes down to, do you like the Texans 1st two drafts that Caserio has run? I do, because he knows the weaknesses and listens to who Lovie/Pep/along with the position coaches want before he makes a pick. Long overdue IMHO
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
So listening to your coaches/scouts is a bad thing? Not listening to these people has been going on for far to long down on Kirby.

This comes down to, do you like the Texans 1st two drafts that Caserio has run? I do, because he knows the weaknesses and listens to who Lovie/Pep/along with the position coaches want before he makes a pick. Long overdue IMHO
This is exactly what has been going on with the Texans for the last 20-plus years. And for the most part, it has been an exercise in misery. The only year this wasn't going on was 2006 by Charley Casserly when the Texans had their best draft. When the coaches weren't mucking this up every year, the owners were. You used to understand this amazingly well before you lost your way.

I believe Easterly hired Caserio on Jan. 7th, 2021. Instead of going all-in and jumping in bed with Caserio on Jan. 8th, 2021 you probably should have waited a couple of months. Now you're locked in and have nowhere else to turn or to go, so you're having to live with it.
 
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thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
So listening to your coaches/scouts is a bad thing?
Are they good communicators?

Is it a bad thing to listen to the GM?

It's got to go both ways, but it only works if both sides know their job & how to communicate their vision & they both need to be able to recognize when they are wrong.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
This is exactly what has been going on with the Texans for the last 20-plus years. And for the most part, it has been an exercise in misery. The only year this wasn't going on was 2006 by Charley Casserly when the Texans had their best draft. When the coaches weren't mucking this up every year, the owners were. You used to understand this amazingly well before you lost your way.

I believe Easterly hired Caserio on Jan. 7th, 2021. Instead of going all-in and jumping in bed with Caserio on Jan. 8th, 2021 you probably should have waited a couple of months. Now you're locked in and have nowhere else to turn or to go, so you're having to live with it.
I understand very well somebody needs to be in charge and make the final calls. They should be held responsible if those calls end in failure. I also believe as the leader of an org you should listen to the people you hire and take into account what they're saying before you make the final decision.

When I say this hasn't happened in a long time down on Kirby, I dont believe RS or BOB listened to anybody. They just did what they wanted to do. This includes most of the Kubiak yrs and everybody knows as hardheaded as BOB was he wasn't going to listen to anybody. Do you think in the RS/BOB as HC yrs RS listened to what BOB wanted? I dont

Do you think BOB the GM listened to anybody? I dont.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Are they good communicators?

Is it a bad thing to listen to the GM?

It's got to go both ways, but it only works if both sides know their job & how to communicate their vision & they both need to be able to recognize when they are wrong.
I believe Caserio doesn't know the type of players Lovie needs for his defense, since the Tampa 2 is far different than what was run in Foxboro. So rightfully he went with the guys Lovie wanted/wants. See: the Christian Harris pick.

The offense is where Caserio's strength is and for instance I believe Pep turned Caserio on to Mills and then Caserio studied Mills and liked what he saw. Same with Collins. This past draft Caserio knew the IOL was weak. Warhop told Caserio the type of players he wanted and suggested signing Cann in FA and probably drafting Green. Caserio watched film on those guys and went out and got them. Same with Mack/Pierce. Finally everybody seems to be on the same page and Tex thinks that's a weakness. I gotta disagree with him on this, but time will tell who's right.
 
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Texansballer74

The Marine
I understand very well somebody needs to be in charge and make the final calls. They should be held responsible if those calls end in failure. I also believe as the leader of an org you should listen to the people you hire and take into account what they're saying before you make the final decision.

When I say this hasn't happened in a long time down on Kirby, I dont believe RS or BOB listened to anybody. They just did what they wanted to do. This includes most of the Kubiak yrs and everybody knows as hardheaded as BOB was he wasn't going to listen to anybody. Do you think in the RS/BOB as HC yrs RS listened to what BOB wanted? I dont

Do you think BOB the GM listened to anybody? I dont.
Rick listened to Kubiak and Wade Smith. O’Brien just wanted all control
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
I understand very well somebody needs to be in charge and make the final calls. They should be held responsible if those calls end in failure. I also believe as the leader of an org you should listen to the people you hire and take into account what they're saying before you make the final decision.

When I say this hasn't happened in a long time down on Kirby, I dont believe RS or BOB listened to anybody. They just did what they wanted to do. This includes most of the Kubiak yrs and everybody knows as hardheaded as BOB was he wasn't going to listen to anybody. Do you think in the RS/BOB as HC yrs RS listened to what BOB wanted? I dont

Do you think BOB the GM listened to anybody? I dont.
Kubiak played the same game as Lovie is playing now, letting his position coaches make draft picks. That didn't change until Bob McNair gave Wade Phillips the first draft pick for two years running as an incentive to take the DC job. Part of the reason Kubiak was fired is that management was not happy with coaches controlling the draft. (Much like why Jerah fired Jimmy). So after Kubiak was fired it became a bigger fustercluck (Osweiller) with Bob McNair and Rick Smith running the show.

After O'Brien got Smith dismissed the suck reach a new level of lows. This is not surprising because I said O'Brien would be horrible terrible hire before he was hired. After O'Brien was fired Cal and Easterby took control, they said to hold our beer, you ain't seen nothing yet, and the new levels of lows have been unbelievably bad and embarrassing. It's the only thing the Houston Texans (McNairs) know how to do, suckage and dumbassery.

Contrary to what you think you know and believe the Texans today are floating to the top, they're much closer to being at the bottom of the barrel.
 
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thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I believe Caserio doesn't know the type of players Lovie needs for his defense, since the Tampa 2 is far different than what was run in Foxboro.
We're so lucky to have you here. Caserio can't figure these things out, but you can.
Finally everybody seems to be on the same page
I'll say I agree with you on this, & leave it at that.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
For awhile but not at the end of the Kubiak regime.
I don't know about that. I believe Rick listened. Kubiak didn't. Like I said earlier, it goes both ways.

Do you think Rick should have traded up to get Brandon Weeden, or Ryan Tanehill? I'm thinking Rick was saying, TJ Yates is as good as those guys & there are other guys that can do just as well that we can get later. One of them being Case Keenum.

& we saw Keenum play well at times, as a rookie. Just imagine that Kubiak embraced Keenum & coached him like Jake Plummer.

I don't think Keenum would have become elite, but he would have been a nice transition from Schaub to our next franchise QB. But since Kubiak did not warm to Case, we went through QB hell & Keenum put together a 10 year career in the NFL with an appearance in the NFC Championship game.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
I don't know about that. I believe Rick listened. Kubiak didn't. Like I said earlier, it goes both ways.

Do you think Rick should have traded up to get Brandon Weeden, or Ryan Tanehill? I'm thinking Rick was saying, TJ Yates is as good as those guys & there are other guys that can do just as well that we can get later. One of them being Case Keenum.

& we saw Keenum play well at times, as a rookie. Just imagine that Kubiak embraced Keenum & coached him like Jake Plummer.

I don't think Keenum would have become elite, but he would have been a nice transition from Schaub to our next franchise QB. But since Kubiak did not warm to Case, we went through QB hell & Keenum put together a 10 year career in the NFL with an appearance in the NFC Championship game.
You need to remember that all Kubiak saw of Keenum was his tendency to run backwards 30 yards to take a sack with an occasional deep pass that worked, all in the middle of a disastrous season
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I don't know about that. I believe Rick listened. Kubiak didn't. Like I said earlier, it goes both ways.

Do you think Rick should have traded up to get Brandon Weeden, or Ryan Tanehill? I'm thinking Rick was saying, TJ Yates is as good as those guys & there are other guys that can do just as well that we can get later. One of them being Case Keenum.

& we saw Keenum play well at times, as a rookie. Just imagine that Kubiak embraced Keenum & coached him like Jake Plummer.

I don't think Keenum would have become elite, but he would have been a nice transition from Schaub to our next franchise QB. But since Kubiak did not warm to Case, we went through QB hell & Keenum put together a 10 year career in the NFL with an appearance in the NFC Championship game.
Think whatever you like, as soon as Kubiak left Kirby and had a competent GM he won a championship.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
I don't know about that. I believe Rick listened. Kubiak didn't. Like I said earlier, it goes both ways.

Do you think Rick should have traded up to get Brandon Weeden, or Ryan Tanehill? I'm thinking Rick was saying, TJ Yates is as good as those guys & there are other guys that can do just as well that we can get later. One of them being Case Keenum.

& we saw Keenum play well at times, as a rookie. Just imagine that Kubiak embraced Keenum & coached him like Jake Plummer.

I don't think Keenum would have become elite, but he would have been a nice transition from Schaub to our next franchise QB. But since Kubiak did not warm to Case, we went through QB hell & Keenum put together a 10 year career in the NFL with an appearance in the NFC Championship game.
Keenum was very young under Kubiak. Bob McNair was in love with Keenum. It was the game in Jacksonville that was Kubiak's undoing. It was McNair who wanted Keenum to start and play the whole game. Keenum at the time only knew about 50% of the playbook. Kubiak knew at the time they could not win if he continued to play Keenum so he decided to take a chance on pick-six Schaub because it gave the Texans the opportunity to use the entire playbook and the best chance to win. McNair had a hissy fit and a temper tantrum on the flight home. Still P'od the next morning he fired Kubiak.

McNair's instructions to O'Brien when he hired him was to make Keenum the starting QB. That worked as well as McNair telling Kubiak when he was hired to fix David Carr and make him a top-notch QB. Can you see the problem here? It's the same problem the Texans have today, only much worse.
 
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thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
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Think whatever you like, as soon as Kubiak left Kirby and had a competent GM he won a championship.
With Brock Osweiler helping to make it happen.

So, let’s go back to the question you didn’t answer. Are you saying Rick should have listened to Kubiak & trade up for Brandon Weeden or Ryan Tannehill?

If your answer is no, what should Rick have done in the 2012 draft, listening to Kubiak?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
With Brock Osweiler helping to make it happen.

So, let’s go back to the question you didn’t answer. Are you saying Rick should have listened to Kubiak & trade up for Brandon Weeden or Ryan Tannehill?

If your answer is no, what should Rick have done in the 2012 draft, listening to Kubiak?
I'm saying RS should have listened to Kubiak when Kubiak told RS not to extend Schaub. Extending Schaub cost Kubiak who had Manning in the building wanting to play for Kubiak the ability to sign Manning.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
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With Brock Osweiler helping to make it happen.

So, let’s go back to the question you didn’t answer. Are you saying Rick should have listened to Kubiak & trade up for Brandon Weeden or Ryan Tannehill?

If your answer is no, what should Rick have done in the 2012 draft, listening to Kubiak?
BTW, RS and Kubiak both should have been fired after 2010.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
He went over there with a stacked roster, with a DC who also had top talent on defense.
He also didn’t go conservative like he would do here in Houston.

I hope Stingley comes out healthy and kick butt this season.
The GM stacked that roster.

I'm hoping the best for Stingley, but I'm skeptical.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
He didn't have control of the draft here either. He did have control of the 53 man roster here. I'm just glad Caserio/Lovie seem to be working together. You're not?
You're mistaken, Kubiak had full complete control over the draft and the roster as Texans HC. It was in his contract. At one point near the end of Kubiak's time as the Texan's HC, John McClain asked Kubiak if he would consider giving up control of having the final say on draft picks and the 53-man roster, Kubiak said NO, it was in his contract. Smith didn't come on board until sometime after Kubiak was hired.

Smith was recommended by Kubiak and Smith's job responsibilities in Houston were the same things he was doing in Denver where he was an assistant to the Owner and the Head Coach. Smith was responsible for organizing and operating the draft. He did not make the draft picks under Kubiak, he just made sure the Kubiak/McNair picks happened and did what he was told to do. (Much like Caserio is doing now). BIG difference. You once knew and understood all of this, what happened? Regardless of however you want to try and spin it, Smith was just another cog in the McNair fustercluck.

I think Caserio is much happier operating in the manner that he operated in New England under Belichick. It's what he knows and is better suited for it. I don't think he was comfortable, was out of his element and was in over his head as a full-control GM. He really didn't know what he was doing. To be fair to Nick, he was never trained in the responsibilities and how to be a GM. Nick is a well-trained Facilitator, he is not a General Manager. That is why Lovie and Nick worked well together.

After two terrible HC searches, the horrible and very costly Culley debacle, Cal and others finally figured out that Nick Caserio was not who they thought he was. They concluded that Nick was much like all of the other Belichick asissatants who failed after moving on from New England. When they asked Lovie to be HC, he agreed only if major changes were made, to include full complete control of all player personnel. Cal knew the circumstances and readily agreed to Lovie's demand. Cal told Caserio he could still remain as GM but his job description would be changing. Nick agreed because he had nowhere else to go making the kind of money he's making. Easterly went back to being a counselor.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You're mistaken, Kubiak had full complete control over the draft and the roster as Texans HC. It was in his contract. At one point near the end of Kubiak's time as the Texan's HC, John McClain asked Kubiak if he would consider giving up control of having the final say on draft picks and the 53-man roster, Kubiak said NO, it was in his contract. Smith didn't come on board until sometime after Kubiak was hired.

Smith was recommended by Kubiak and Smith's job responsibilities in Houston were the same things he was doing in Denver where he was an assistant to the Owner and the Head Coach. Smith was responsible for organizing and operating the draft. He did not make the draft picks under Kubiak, he just made sure the Kubiak/McNair picks happened and did what he was told to do. (Much like Caserio is doing now). BIG difference. You used to know and understand all of this, what happened? Regardless of however you want to try and spin it, Smith was just another cog in the McNair fustercluck.

I think Caserio is much happier operating in the manner that he operated in New England under Belichick. It's what he knows and is better suited for it. I don't think he was comfortable, was out of his element and was in over his head as a full-control GM. He really didn't know what he was doing. To be fair to Nick, he was never trained in the responsibilities and how to be a GM. Nick is a well-trained Facilitator, he is not a General Manager. That is why Lovie and Nick worked well together.

After two terrible HC searches, the horrible and very costly Culley debacle, Cal and others finally figured out that Nick Caserio was not who they thought he was. They concluded that Nick was much like all of the other Belichick asissatants who failed after moving on from New England. When they asked Lovie to be HC, he agreed only if major changes were made, to include full complete control of all player personnel. Cal knew the circumstances and readily agreed to Lovie's demand. Cal told Caserio he could still remain as GM but his job description would be changing. Nick agreed because he had nowhere else to go making the kind of money he's making. Easterly went back to being a counselor.
So Lovie has full control of personnel now?

All picks now whether they are great picks or poor picks fall on Lovie.

Wow, to think the only reason Lovie was hired was because of the Flores lawsuit. SMDH

BTW, I think Caserio did a great job running his 1st draft. The one without 1st/,2nd rd picks
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
So Lovie has full control of personnel now?

All picks now whether they are great picks or poor picks fall on Lovie.

Wow, to think the only reason Lovie was hired was because of the Flores lawsuit. SMDH

BTW, I think Caserio did a great job running his 1st draft. The one without 1st/,2nd rd picks
Yes, yes and Lovie was hired because Caserio had completely screwed up his 2nd HC search and made a complete mockery of his first HC hiring. You think using 10 draft picks to draft 5 players is a great job. I do not. I see it as complete incompetence. This does not include all the draft picks used to trade for players that ended up being cut only weeks or months later. Caserio is not the GM they wanted him to be. They did get a good facilitator instead.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
You're mistaken, Kubiak had full complete control over the draft and the roster as Texans HC. It was in his contract. At one point near the end of Kubiak's time as the Texan's HC, John McClain asked Kubiak if he would consider giving up control of having the final say on draft picks and the 53-man roster, Kubiak said NO, it was in his contract. Smith didn't come on board until sometime after Kubiak was hired.

Smith was recommended by Kubiak and Smith's job responsibilities in Houston were the same things he was doing in Denver where he was an assistant to the Owner and the Head Coach. Smith was responsible for organizing and operating the draft. He did not make the draft picks under Kubiak, he just made sure the Kubiak/McNair picks happened and did what he was told to do. (Much like Caserio is doing now). BIG difference. You used to know and understand all of this, what happened? Regardless of however you want to try and spin it, Smith was just another cog in the McNair fustercluck.

I think Caserio is much happier operating in the manner that he operated in New England under Belichick. It's what he knows and is better suited for it. I don't think he was comfortable, was out of his element and was in over his head as a full-control GM. He really didn't know what he was doing. To be fair to Nick, he was never trained in the responsibilities and how to be a GM. Nick is a well-trained Facilitator, he is not a General Manager. That is why Lovie and Nick worked well together.

After two terrible HC searches, the horrible and very costly Culley debacle, Cal and others finally figured out that Nick Caserio was not who they thought he was. They concluded that Nick was much like all of the other Belichick asissatants who failed after moving on from New England. When they asked Lovie to be HC, he agreed only if major changes were made, to include full complete control of all player personnel. Cal knew the circumstances and readily agreed to Lovie's demand. Cal told Caserio he could still remain as GM but his job description would be changing. Nick agreed because he had nowhere else to go making the kind of money he's making. Easterly went back to being a counselor.
Yes, yes and Lovie was hired because Caserio had completely screwed up his 2nd HC search and made a complete mockery of his first HC hiring. You think using 10 draft picks to draft 5 players is a great job. I do not. I see it as complete incompetence. This does not include all the draft picks used to trade for players that ended up being cut only weeks or months later. Caserio is not the GM they wanted him to be. They did get a good facilitator instead.
What makes your opinion fact? Can you prove any of the above or is it your usual spouting bs?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
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Yes, yes and Lovie was hired because Caserio had completely screwed up his 2nd HC search and made a complete mockery of his first HC hiring. You think using 10 draft picks to draft 5 players is a great job. I do not. I see it as complete incompetence. This does not include all the draft picks used to trade for players that ended up being cut only weeks or months later. Caserio is not the GM they wanted him to be. They did get a good facilitator instead.
He was hired because of the Flores lawsuit.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
He was hired because of the Flores lawsuit.
Yes, Culley was fired the moment Caserio thought he could hire Flores. When that blew up in Nick's face the fustercluck was on again. It got so bad this time that Daniel Calhoun had to step in and say enough is enough. It was at that moment when Lovie knew he had the Game Boy at his mercy.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
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Yes, Culley was fired the moment Caserio thought he could hire Flores. When that blew up in Nick's face the fustercluck was on again. It got so bad this time that Daniel Calhoun had to step in and say enough is enough. It was at that moment when Lovie knew he had the Game Boy at his mercy.
I never thought of Flores as a serious candidate. I always thought Gannon was Caserio's guy.

We will never know for sure.
 

Earl34

All Pro
I'm saying RS should have listened to Kubiak when Kubiak told RS not to extend Schaub. Extending Schaub cost Kubiak who had Manning in the building wanting to play for Kubiak the ability to sign Manning.
Hindsight is 20/20, but it was more than RS didn't want to sign Manning or simply not listening to Kubiak. Bob McNair publicly made comments about not wanting to sign Manning. Was RS supposed to ignore McNair's opinions? Also, what were the salary cap ramifications? With Mario Williams due a new contract, who would they have to cut to sign Manning to that $96 million deal? Also, it wasn't only the Texans who had concerns on if Manning would be able to play at a high level. With the Texans luck, they signed Manning and he is like old Jeff Bagwell who could barely lift his arm above his head. The Texans simply felt they were close and didn't take the risk. It doesn't have to be this RS vs Kubiak narrative. It was an organizational decision led by the owner's concerns.

It's funny that the Texans got roasted for signing Osweiler without meeting with him or having a workout, yet you wanted the Texans to sign Manning without knowing if his shoulder was fully healthy? Even Manning is on record that his shoulder was worst than he let on, he lost feeling in his fingertips and had to totally rework his throwing motion. If Bob McNair and RS felt the Texans were close to taking the next step, knew his salary cap situation, didn't want to cut 2-3 players for an injured Manning and was thinking of the upcoming Mario Williams' contract negotiations, that was an organization decision that is more than simply saying RS did not listen to Kubiak.

If you don't believe me. Here are direct quotes from Bob McNair:
"If there were an ideal club for him to be with, if it was just his decision alone, it would be the Texans because that gives him the best chance to win and that's really what he's looking for," McNair said Tuesday during a radio interview with KILT-AM. "But, we have a quarterback that we're happy with. Now the teams that he's talking to are the teams that don't have a quarterback and they're taking the risk of bringing a player in that they haven't even worked out."
Texans' McNair on Peyton Manning: 'I hope he’s healthy' (nfl.com)

"Some people said, why didn't you sign Peyton Manning? Well, we just couldn't do it. We would have had to let go of two or three of our outstanding players to create enough room in the salary cap to do something with him. Those are the decisions you have to make as you go forward. You hope you make the right decision."
McNair: Keeping core players key - ABC30 Fresno
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
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Hindsight is 20/20, but it was more than RS didn't want to sign Manning or simply not listening to Kubiak. Bob McNair publicly made comments about not wanting to sign Manning. Was RS supposed to ignore McNair's opinions? Also, what were the salary cap ramifications? With Mario Williams due a new contract, who would they have to cut to sign Manning to that $96 million deal? Also, it wasn't only the Texans who had concerns on if Manning would be able to play at a high level. With the Texans luck, they signed Manning and he is like old Jeff Bagwell who could barely lift his arm above his head. The Texans simply felt they were close and didn't take the risk. It doesn't have to be this RS vs Kubiak narrative. It was an organizational decision led by the owner's concerns.

It's funny that the Texans got roasted for signing Osweiler without meeting with him or having a workout, yet you wanted the Texans to sign Manning without knowing if his shoulder was fully healthy? Even Manning is on record that his shoulder was worst than he let on, he lost feeling in his fingertips and had to totally rework his throwing motion. If Bob McNair and RS felt the Texans were close to taking the next step, knew his salary cap situation, didn't want to cut 2-3 players for an injured Manning and was thinking of the upcoming Mario Williams' contract negotiations, that was an organization decision that is more than simply saying RS did not listen to Kubiak.

If you don't believe me. Here are direct quotes from Bob McNair:
"If there were an ideal club for him to be with, if it was just his decision alone, it would be the Texans because that gives him the best chance to win and that's really what he's looking for," McNair said Tuesday during a radio interview with KILT-AM. "But, we have a quarterback that we're happy with. Now the teams that he's talking to are the teams that don't have a quarterback and they're taking the risk of bringing a player in that they haven't even worked out."
Texans' McNair on Peyton Manning: 'I hope he’s healthy' (nfl.com)

"Some people said, why didn't you sign Peyton Manning? Well, we just couldn't do it. We would have had to let go of two or three of our outstanding players to create enough room in the salary cap to do something with him. Those are the decisions you have to make as you go forward. You hope you make the right decision."
McNair: Keeping core players key - ABC30 Fresno
They had those cap ramifications because of signing Schaub. Without signing the early Schaub extension they could have easily made room to sign Manning. If I'm going to take a chance it's going to be on a future HOF''er.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
They had those cap ramifications because of signing Schaub. Without signing the early Schaub extension they could have easily made room to sign Manning. If I'm going to take a chance it's going to be on a future HOF''er.
you mean like future Hofer Ed Reed? Hindsight is always 20/20. Problem is hindsight dont exist until a decision is made. Cant really fault the Texans in either situation TBH.
 
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Texian

Hall of Fame
Hindsight is 20/20, but it was more than RS didn't want to sign Manning or simply not listening to Kubiak. Bob McNair publicly made comments about not wanting to sign Manning. Was RS supposed to ignore McNair's opinions? Also, what were the salary cap ramifications? With Mario Williams due a new contract, who would they have to cut to sign Manning to that $96 million deal? Also, it wasn't only the Texans who had concerns on if Manning would be able to play at a high level. With the Texans luck, they signed Manning and he is like old Jeff Bagwell who could barely lift his arm above his head. The Texans simply felt they were close and didn't take the risk. It doesn't have to be this RS vs Kubiak narrative. It was an organizational decision led by the owner's concerns.

It's funny that the Texans got roasted for signing Osweiler without meeting with him or having a workout, yet you wanted the Texans to sign Manning without knowing if his shoulder was fully healthy? Even Manning is on record that his shoulder was worst than he let on, he lost feeling in his fingertips and had to totally rework his throwing motion. If Bob McNair and RS felt the Texans were close to taking the next step, knew his salary cap situation, didn't want to cut 2-3 players for an injured Manning and was thinking of the upcoming Mario Williams' contract negotiations, that was an organization decision that is more than simply saying RS did not listen to Kubiak.

If you don't believe me. Here are direct quotes from Bob McNair:
"If there were an ideal club for him to be with, if it was just his decision alone, it would be the Texans because that gives him the best chance to win and that's really what he's looking for," McNair said Tuesday during a radio interview with KILT-AM. "But, we have a quarterback that we're happy with. Now the teams that he's talking to are the teams that don't have a quarterback and they're taking the risk of bringing a player in that they haven't even worked out."
Texans' McNair on Peyton Manning: 'I hope he’s healthy' (nfl.com)

"Some people said, why didn't you sign Peyton Manning? Well, we just couldn't do it. We would have had to let go of two or three of our outstanding players to create enough room in the salary cap to do something with him. Those are the decisions you have to make as you go forward. You hope you make the right decision."
McNair: Keeping core players key - ABC30 Fresno
In a nutshell, Rick Smith was following orders from Bob McNair, like he always did. McNair said no to Manning but insisted on signing Osweiler and that pretty much sums up why the Texans have become the organization they are. Bob McNair was even a worse version of Jerah Jones.
 

Earl34

All Pro
They had those cap ramifications because of signing Schaub. Without signing the early Schaub extension they could have easily made room to sign Manning. If I'm going to take a chance it's going to be on a future HOF''er.
A HOF'er who wasn't even sure he would be able to throw a ball 10 yards? Don't get me wrong. The Broncos took a $96 million risk and it paid off. But its wasn't a no-brainer signing. During the time period, it seems like it was 60/40 that Manning was damage goods.

Also, people easily forget that Manning threw 9 TDs and 17 INTs in their Super Bowl year. It was Wade and that defense who were the driving forces for that Super Bowl run.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
you mean like future Hofer Ed Reed? Hindsight is always 20/20. Problem is hindsight dont exist until a decision is made. Cant really fault the Texans in either situation TBH.
Difference is many here wanted Manning at the time and this has nothing to do with RS not listening to Kubiak when he said not to sign Schaub to that extension. Which I find a curious decision. As you know I wasn't a Kubiak fan as a HC. Love the man as a person. But if there's one thing Kubiak knows it's QBs and QB play.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
What makes your opinion fact? Can you prove any of the above or is it your usual spouting bs?
Basically, the non-Kool-Aid variety.

I think what it all boils down to is I do more research, read a lot more, have a good memory, am an independent and critical thinker, do not engage in groupthink, following the herd and mob mentality. I try to get it right, I am objective, I do not have a bias, I do not engage in wishful thinking, hoping, wanting something to be true, and can recognize when someone is trying to blow smoke up my hiney. :)

1. Kubiak did have full control over all player personnel. There are enough interviews out there where he states such. Use your Google.

2. Kubiak did recommend Rick Smith to Bob McNair. There are media reports report so, if only you would take the time to research them. Again Google time.

3. Check out the Rappoport news reporting Texans management has too much say in player personnel and the draft.

4. Regarding Caserio's first year, his decisions are well documented: https://www.texanstalk.com/threads/nick-caserio-new-gm.115527/page-44#post-3210544

4b. FISCAL IRRESPONSIBILITY: Texans started 2021 season with 54 contracts and $6MM OVER the cap.

If the Texans had made the following moves they would've been $48MM UNDER the cap. They would not of had to resort to mortgaging the future to the tune of OVER $35MM in contract restructuring, $37MM in Dead Cap in 2021 and would've added a 2nd rd draft pick.
B. McKinneyRelease$7.00m
D. JohnsonRelease$6.90m
Z. FultonRelease$3.00m
Du. JohnsonRelease$5.15m
B. DunnRelease$3.25m
B. CooksTrade$12.00m
J. WattRelease$17.50m
Total Saved$54.80m
5. It doesn't take a psychiatrist or a psychologist to see that Caserio was a different happier person after Lovie was hired. Also noticeable was Nick's public messaging became less about Nick, I and Me and more about we, team and deference to Lovie. To be blunt Nick will no longer be in the press box with headphones. You don't have to have an IQ over 120 to understand what is happening here.

6. Was there any 2 horrible, terrible worse consecutive head coaching searches than Nick's in 2021 and 2022?

7. How many Belichick assistants have an abysmal record of failure after leaving NE?

8. Texans did in fact start 2022 with the fewest signed players on the roster.

9. Brian Gaine was fired the day after Jack Easterly returned from New England after spending the evening with Nick Caserio.

10. 48 hours after the Dolphins fired Flores, Caserio fired Culley.

11. After the Flores lawsuit, the Texans interview Josh McCown for HC three times.

12. After Jonathan Gannon withdrew his name from Texans HC consideration because he would have no say so in hiring his coaches, in less than 24 hours Lovie was hired as HC with complete control of hiring his coaches. He also demanded control over player personnel which was quite evident in the 2022 draft.

13. I said before Bill O'Brien would be an absolutely horrible hire before Bob McNair hired him. Some call this bs, I'll say I'm clairvoyant or just better informed.

14. I've also experienced 55 years of some very bad NFL ownership and management and have become pretty good at recognizing it when I see it.

Sorry you asked?
 
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