I'm very interested to see how OB and Godsey use these guys against various schemes. It's so nice to see a game specific offense after so many years of an offense that Ray Charles could call the play on.
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Selection 3.70, Jaelen Strong, WR, Arizona State
- Thread starter Playoffs
- Start date
My saying that wasn't a cause and effect thing to lacking a stud wr as I wouldn't have just said it if I didn't like the particular foursome. I actually believe these four guys can be an interchangeable set that could be used effectively. I also happen to think Mallet is good enough and desperately hope he's named QB1.
The line in parenthesis was supposed to be cak-repellent for this topic, btw ...
As long as Hoyer isn't starting, the Texans may have a budding stud QB. All of the unknowns are making me crazy and excited about the upcoming season. The same way I felt in 2002 and 2006. After seeing what OB and ROC did, with what they had to work with, last season I'm looking forward to year two with the offseason additions and player like Cush and Nix being healthy (still not sold on Clowney returning and being a force).
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I think Hopkins is going to be the stud WR. I was ready to send him packing (for value mind you, not for nothing) but he really had a pretty impressive year and if he keeps growing I don't think we're one of the teams without a stud WR at all. Maybe one of the teams without a heralded stud WR but not for long.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Seattle's back-to-back Super Bowl appearances would like to disagree:
2013 - Golden Tate 64/900/5 (ranked 31st)
2014 - Doug Baldwin 66/825/3 (ranked 42nd)
So would the Raven's Super Bowl team:
2012 - Anquan Boldin 65/920/4 (ranked 27th)
The 2012 and 2013 49ers teams that went to back-to-back NFC title games and one SB both had "stud" WR's in Crabtree and Boldin that put up less yards than what Nuk did this last season a #2.
That is three different teams with four recent SB appearances between them. I think this team will be fine, and that Nuk will end up being a better receiver than you want him to be.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Gronk. oh wait...
Edelman (25th) and LaFell (27th) both put up similar seasons with ~950 yards. Edelman had 92 receptions but at 10.6 YPC it was the second lowest in the top 50 WR's.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Thank you.
Ah. I guess I proved your point.
It was a team effort. You were just being the best teammate you could be.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Where is my cardigan and pipe...
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I sense a chicken and egg thing going on here. Define prior winners as studs and then only studs win. Objectively, none of those QBs would be able to carry a bad team and each has tried and failed at some point in time. But each can keep a marginal or good team in most games and give their team a chance at victory. Each can be a part of a Great Team and have been.
But they all rely on their team to get to and win a Superbowl. The team that wins is usually greater than a sum of it's parts. Many on this board seem to think A "stud" at QB is THE ONE AND ONLY road map to victory.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Wilson, Flacco and Brady have all failed at carrying a bad team?
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Yes. Whether caused by injury, retirement, Free Agency or something else, each has had seasons where they couldn't WIN with their teams. Wilson has been the most consistent, but also has had the least data points. He'll regress to the mean most likely. If it were all about the QB, then one would win every season. But they don't.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Logic fail. Not winning the Super Bowl every year does not equate to not being able to carry a bad team.
Brady has never had a losing season. 9 AFC title games in 14 years. 6 SB appearances.
Flacco had never had a losing season and missed the playoffs once in his 7-year career.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
And Wilson took a 7-9 team to the division round (11-5), won the SB and lost the SB in his 3 years. Not seeing a lot of bad teams in there he has failed to carry.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Well, I was giving him some leeway in not pointing that out since he is correct that Wilson's sample size is small. Still a total logic fail though...
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
My bad. I missed the sample size comment.
noxiousdog
Rookie
Brady clearly has carried bad teams. Flacco, not so much.
I think it's more useful to look at the defense they had to work with.
Brady has managed to do extremely well with a ton of very average defenses. The Pats have been the 10th best defense by points 4 times, and Brady pulled of 12, 13, 10, and 9 wins those seasons. They've been ranked in the 20s in yards allowed 7 times, and yet are all double digit win seasons. I'm sure these are slightly inflated due to the high scoring games, but it's definitely NOT a dominating defense.
Flacco, on the other hand, has had a top 3 defense 4 of seven years by both measures (one year was 10th in yards though), and top 6 another. Ironically, they won the super bowl when their defense was more average. I'm not a believer in clutch, but if it exists, Flacco is the poster child.
Flacco is so lucky to have a great GM, a great coach, and a great organization in place before he got there. All he had to do was be competent and he then gets to take credit. I'm pretty sure you could swap him out for any number of guys and they'd look just as good.
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sandman
Brexit Advisor
Patriot season win totals in his career:
9 wins - 1
10 wins - 2
11 wins - 1
12 wins - 4
13 wins - 1
14 wins - 3
16 wins - 1
Been to the AFC title game 9 times in 13 years.
Average defense doesn't equal bad team.
No QB is so good that he consistently carries a bad team deep into the playoffs.
I'm sorry, just for the record... who's logic is a total fail again?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
From watching regular season games this is certainly reasonable. But their 2012 SB was won on his post-season heroic play. 285 ypg, 115+ rating, 11 TDs, 0 INTs. They had to top 31 pts and 35 pts during that run. That's not a D locking down the opponent.
There may be a number of guys who could produce similar regular season results. But there are very few who have ever upped their game to such a high level when the competition got the toughest.
That was directed to Marshall.
noxiousdog
Rookie
Well, that definitely was a great post season, no doubt. I just think it's randomness though. His total playoff stat line isn't that great. In 15 games, he has a 56% completion percentage, 25 TDs, 16 turnovers (10 int, 6 fumbles).
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
It's OK. Just more conclusions in search of an explanation. Logic has nothing to do with it. Mr Brady is 3-11 and the best QB of his generation. It makes absolute sense that he alone is not responsible for wins. He has to do it with his team or he fails.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Well the subject wasn't QBs who could carry teams. The subject was which teams could get away with a cadre of WRs without a stud. My answer was generally only those with a stud QB.
corytx8
Rookie
Look, that was a single season, the dude has been straight up ok during this time in the league. Actually inconsistent in opinion.
False Start
On # 69
So..... I really hope that Jaelen Strong kid turns out to be a steal.... 
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Good point. I got off on my QBs are not the be all and end all of the team sport of football track.
Troy Chapman
Rookie
So..... I really hope that Jaelen Strong kid turns out to be a steal....
He posted on the Twitter that he has dropped 20 pounds since start of rookie camp. 231 down to 211
sandman
Brexit Advisor
So instead of fat and slow, he is now skinny and slow?
Troy Chapman
Rookie
IMO it illustrates that he is at least working hard on his conditioning since his OTA sessions did not go so well in that department.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
I kid. Perceived WR speed is going to be a great source of fuel for teeth gnashing on this board.
I just hope he doesn't become too light. I was thinking he would be Anquan Boldin-ish. Bruising possession receiver.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Strong was 217 at the Combine, so he kinda let himself go to get to 231.
He ran 4.44 at 6 lbs. heavier, which makes him the fastest WR on 2014 roster.
Yep,
Atleast he's making the effort to try to get in shape which is the 1st step in becoming a professional player. Hope I'm wrong about Strong and he has a long/productive career. He did fall to the 3rd rd for a reason.
ingingQUOTE="Playoffs, post: 2506007, member: 17300"]Strong was 217 at the Combine, so he kinda let himself go to get to 231.
He ran 4.44 at 6 lbs. heavier, which makes him the fastest WR on 2014 roster.[/QUOTE]
That's very respectable long speed, certainly superior to the kind of times Hopkins reportedly turned-in. And if it's official combine time then I believe it. See on the other hand I'm
automatically suspicious of all pro day performances because they are recored on hand-held timing devices and this is of course the 21st century and there's no place for that in todays sports world. But 4.4 would be faster than what Andre Johnson is capable of running currently or in recent years, though he was very fast when much younger but that's a long time ago for AJ. And I'm liking this report on Strong concditiioning and effots to bounce back from disappointing OTA sessions here in Houston !
He ran 4.44 at 6 lbs. heavier, which makes him the fastest WR on 2014 roster.[/QUOTE]
That's very respectable long speed, certainly superior to the kind of times Hopkins reportedly turned-in. And if it's official combine time then I believe it. See on the other hand I'm
automatically suspicious of all pro day performances because they are recored on hand-held timing devices and this is of course the 21st century and there's no place for that in todays sports world. But 4.4 would be faster than what Andre Johnson is capable of running currently or in recent years, though he was very fast when much younger but that's a long time ago for AJ. And I'm liking this report on Strong concditiioning and effots to bounce back from disappointing OTA sessions here in Houston !
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
The hand-held timing is done by a gaggle of folks independent of the prospect and each other.
I'd like to line AJ, Strong and Hopkins up for a race right now. I think people's perceptions are colored by their "knowledge" that people slow as they age.
Troy Chapman
Rookie
Recall 2013 when a couple of Eagles' players had a race and the older player won.
So using your logic, Mr Sunshine beats Strong, AJ, and Hopkins in a 40 ?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Or back in the day Darrell Green was still torching rookies in races when he was approaching 40.
Not everyone starts at the same point and they don't all decline from their starting point at the same rate.
I made no "logic" assertion and I don't know who Mr. Sunshine is supposed to be. I said:
1) I'd like to see a race between AJ, Strong and Hopkins - to see how people's perceptions and the times match up with reality.
2) An observation that people claim to see what they expect to see. Folks claim to see a drop in performance after injuries automatically just about. Folks claim to see slowing down with age. Sometimes you can. Much of the time it's bunk.
Darrell Green reportedly ran a 4.43 40 on his 50th birthday. Fine he slowed down from whatever his rookie speed was. He didn't turn into some guy trotting down the field at a 4.8 like many folks act.
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sandman
Brexit Advisor
Explosiveness and speed are two different things. I think the multiple hammy injuries robbed AJ of some of his explosiveness/quickness, but I don't recall his catch and run top end speed having seriously degraded over the past few years. No he is not a 100/1400 guy anymore, but his utilization last year (thinking WR screens) did help create a perception that his speed had slowed down considerably more than it actually has.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Thing is AJ's game was never about being explosive off the line. He was a long strider with long speed whose game has always been about a size/speed combo and has over time also developed into a great route runner.
Could be but remains to be seen IMO. We only have one season with him not being that guy and his utilization last year largely precluded that. Well see this year with Luck.
Correct IMO. Then there has been the Eveready drum banging by some around here who have been wanting to trade him ever since his 2011 injury.
Who said 40 times improve with age? The point of discussion is that different guys "decline" (for lack of a better term) at different rates. The one point I will concede is that AJ's leg injuries may have taken a toll. But has anyone timed him of late? Do we have actual data that shows that decline? Or is this perception based on the old eyeball test; which we all know is "infallible". <-- sarcasm
There was a time when AJ could establish separation with all but the very swiftest corners in the league, but I've not seen that player for quite a few seasons now. His speed has simple markedly diminished IMO. It's deteriorated to the extent that AJ is now essentially a possession receiver.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I guess quite a few seasons is now defined as 1 (and that 1 was defined by the HC). You sure as hell can't be talking about 2012 with his career high 1598 yds, 23 catches over 20 (career high) and 5 catches over 40 (2nd highest). I think calling him a possession WR in 2013 with the dueling monkeys at QB is silly. Pretty sure Indy who he hung 229 yds on at 25 ypr and 3 TDs didn't think he was a possession receiver. His peers voted him 21st best player in the league after 2013. But your call.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Speed isn't required for success, as evidenced by this most wicked route AJ used to shake Richard Sherman... 5 moves at the top:
Click on the image to read the article... or go here: http://www.texanstalk.com/threads/a...olding-deandre-hopkins-into-a-monster.104813/
Speed is nice to have at a certain baseline, but I'll take sharp routes; burst into/out if breaks paired; sticky hands; attack at the point. The latter is what I've seen most from Strong.
And while losing the weight is good, he never should've let it get to 231 imo. Was not in shape for OTAs which led to the hammy. Time to man up, now, or disappear into the 2015 depth chart.
Click on the image to read the article... or go here: http://www.texanstalk.com/threads/a...olding-deandre-hopkins-into-a-monster.104813/
Speed is nice to have at a certain baseline, but I'll take sharp routes; burst into/out if breaks paired; sticky hands; attack at the point. The latter is what I've seen most from Strong.
And while losing the weight is good, he never should've let it get to 231 imo. Was not in shape for OTAs which led to the hammy. Time to man up, now, or disappear into the 2015 depth chart.
I don't deny that AJ still has his impressive strength and size, he's for sure a bull as far as NFL WRs go. But that play illustrates what I think Johnson is today. He's still a reasonably imppresive NFL WR, but a burner, a deep threat he's not and has not been for awhile now.Speed isn't required for success, as evidenced by this most wicked route AJ used to shake Richard Sherman... 5 moves at the top:
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Speed isn't required for success, as evidenced by this most wicked route AJ used to shake Richard Sherman... 5 moves at the top:
Click on the image to read the article... or go here: http://www.texanstalk.com/threads/a...olding-deandre-hopkins-into-a-monster.104813/
Speed is nice to have at a certain baseline, but I'll take sharp routes; burst into/out if breaks paired; sticky hands; attack at the point. The latter is what I've seen most from Strong.
And while losing the weight is good, he never should've let it get to 231 imo. Was not in shape for OTAs which led to the hammy. Time to man up, now, or disappear into the 2015 depth chart.
I know the storyline was he did the rookie thing and didn't show up in football shape for OTAs. Didn't realise that he had gotten to 231. That goes beyond not being in football shape. That's being in no kind of shape. Glad to see he learned his lesson quickly. Plenty of time to get out of that doghouse.
How fast do you think AJ runs the 40 these days? I know defenses weren't threatened vertically last yr.