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Robert Griffin III could be the Texans next quarterback

badboy said:
here we go again saying stuff that is just not true. I'll buy your point on his pro level as he has had basically no time on field with starters or any others for that matter. However he did quite well in college as I have posted before. As a freshman 2009 Rutgers he won starting job after team lost game one. He went 9-3 with 2211 yards 14 TDs and 7 INTs and was named to All American freshman team. That is very good. In 2010 he had hand injury and returned in 2011 to find out he would not compete with 2010 QB for starters job and he transferred to Arizona but had to sit out that season. Late 2011 the college fired coach and went with Rich Rodriguez who offered an offense that would not help Savage and he then transferred to Pittsburgh and red shirted 2012. He was starter for 2013 and passed for 3000 yards and 21 TD s; again a very good season considering makeup of that roster. Record was only 7-6 but went to a bowl. When he got on field he was very good.
I am not a Savage fan boy but would like to see him get a chance with A team.
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I get the college stats. I get that he was looking better in pre-season last year. I get that given a chance, he may have competed well with Hoyer and Mallett. And that is where the wheels fall of for me. Hoyer and Mallett. Two of the biggest train wrecks in the NFL this season. It honestly doesn't take much to outplay either of them. And the argument that I am hearing is not that he clearly outplayed them (he did get a lot of pre-season game time), but rather that given the chance he would have competed well with them. Which makes him a project showing success on a learning curve, not a Rodgers or McNair or Favre who were sitting behind other guys waiting for their chance.

There is no QB in the draft that we have a realistic shot at getting that is NFL ready. There isn't a vet out there as a FA or decent trade option (thinking Stafford will cost more than we can pay) that steps in immediately and claims the job. So in that context, it does sound appropriate that Savage should get a chance at the starting gig. Because we have accepted below average QB play as the standard for this team. That is not a knock against Savage. He is simply still an unproven commodity as a 4th round pick with 2 years of college ball, a 1/2 game NFL experience his rookie year, and didn't put on pads this entire past season. He may surprise everyone. He may also be the next Case Keenum. Which is the Hoyer/Mallett/Wheeden territory that we seem to be settling for. We both know where the odds land on that outcome. Like Cak said, he can be part of the plan, but should never BE the plan.
 
sandman said:
Which makes him a project showing success on a learning curve, not a Rodgers or McNair or Favre who were sitting behind other guys waiting for their chance.
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Both Rodgers & McNair put up a couple of stinkers before they showed up as bad mammajammas.

Personally I think 4 year starters from "pro style" offenses are NFL ready & capable to start day 1; Cook, Hogan

I agree. I don't want Savage to be our "best shot"
 
[QUOTE="sandman, post: 2574809, member: 2582]
There is no QB in the draft that we have a realistic shot at getting that is NFL ready. There isn't a vet out there as a FA or decent trade option (thinking Stafford will cost more than we can pay) that steps in immediately and claims the job.[/QUOTE]

What about Glennon?
 
thunderkyss said:
Both Rodgers & McNair put up a couple of stinkers before they showed up as bad mammajammas.

Personally I think 4 year starters from "pro style" offenses are NFL ready & capable to start day 1; Cook, Hogan

I agree. I don't want Savage to be our "best shot"
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The thing about Rodgers and McNair was that they were first round picks expected to be the franchise QB. Favre was the first pick of the 2nd round and was traded to GB the next year for the 19th pick in the first round. All of these guys came into the league with different expectations than Savage. Again, doesn't mean he can't/won't be successful. I just think we have been measuring him against the weakest set of peers that we could possibly imagine.

I'll admit to not being a draftnik level guy on the QB's coming out this year. What I hear though is there is no sure thing and at 22 we are going to have to give up a lot to get into position for one of those not sure things. If I'm giving up multiple picks to get my hands on a guy, I'm calling Detroit and asking how much it will take to shake Stafford loose. IMHO.
 
sandman said:
I get the college stats. I get that he was looking better in pre-season last year. I get that given a chance, he may have competed well with Hoyer and Mallett. And that is where the wheels fall of for me. Hoyer and Mallett. Two of the biggest train wrecks in the NFL this season. It honestly doesn't take much to outplay either of them. And the argument that I am hearing is not that he clearly outplayed them (he did get a lot of pre-season game time), but rather that given the chance he would have competed well with them. Which makes him a project showing success on a learning curve, not a Rodgers or McNair or Favre who were sitting behind other guys waiting for their chance.

There is no QB in the draft that we have a realistic shot at getting that is NFL ready. There isn't a vet out there as a FA or decent trade option (thinking Stafford will cost more than we can pay) that steps in immediately and claims the job. So in that context, it does sound appropriate that Savage should get a chance at the starting gig. Because we have accepted below average QB play as the standard for this team. That is not a knock against Savage. He is simply still an unproven commodity as a 4th round pick with 2 years of college ball, a 1/2 game NFL experience his rookie year, and didn't put on pads this entire past season. He may surprise everyone. He may also be the next Case Keenum. Which is the Hoyer/Mallett/Wheeden territory that we seem to be settling for. We both know where the odds land on that outcome. Like Cak said, he can be part of the plan, but should never BE the plan.
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How about Savage as plan A for this (2016) season and part of the long term plan? Both require multiple plans beyond Plan A. I think Weedon is a viable Plan B and part of a long term plan along with a developmental prospect which I consider ALL incoming QBs to be.

I just don't see Hoyer making it to April 1.
 
JB said:
[QUOTE="sandman, post: 2574809, member: 2582]
There is no QB in the draft that we have a realistic shot at getting that is NFL ready. There isn't a vet out there as a FA or decent trade option (thinking Stafford will cost more than we can pay) that steps in immediately and claims the job.
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What about Glennon?[/QUOTE]

To me he is as much an enigma as RGIII. Started his rookie year after they benched Freeman and had respectable numbers on a bad team. Lovie Smith replaced with a journeyman in McCown though the next season. The only saving grace I see to that is they had trade offers at the draft and didn't dump him. Makes me believe that Lovie was truly trying to develop him for the future. McCown gets hurt, Glennon looses most of the games he started, McCown replaces him again when healthy. Then they draft Winston. Was Winston too good to pass up at 1:1? Was Glennon not going to be The Guy for them? Again, on par with RGIII in my mind. Decent stats on a dysfunctional team that no longer wants him.
 
sandman said:
What about Glennon?
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To me he is as much an enigma as RGIII. Started his rookie year after they benched Freeman and had respectable numbers on a bad team. Lovie Smith replaced with a journeyman in McCown though the next season. The only saving grace I see to that is they had trade offers at the draft and didn't dump him. Makes me believe that Lovie was truly trying to develop him for the future. McCown gets hurt, Glennon looses most of the games he started, McCown replaces him again when healthy. Then they draft Winston. Was Winston too good to pass up at 1:1? Was Glennon not going to be The Guy for them? Again, on par with RGIII in my mind. Decent stats on a dysfunctional team that no longer wants him.[/QUOTE]

Check some of what Hook Em has posted regarding that dysfunctional team. I don't believe he was ever given much of a chance there, but yeah it's a crapshoot with a much higher ceiling than Hoyer (I know, doesn't take much) and much lower injury risk than RGIII. I liked of what I saw in the few games I watched him play. He showed poise and good accuracy with plenty of arm strength
 
Mollywhopper said:
And how long until he's on career IR with that plan?
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Have you ever watched any Redskins games? He was perfectly fine his rookie year when he played in THAT type of offense. He was perfectly fine in college in THAT offense. The injuries/hits didn't pile up until he asked Shanahan to turn him into a pocket passer, something he just isn't.
 
leebigeztx said:
I'm not saying you turn it into a college offense, I'm saying you can roll a pocket and still have the entire field. Reeves used to fo it with elway all the time. People need to remember Steve Young and how he was perceived after taking over for Montana. Jerry Rice wasn't feeling the way he was breaking out the pocket and running. We all remember Young running without a helmet. I'd rather try to get something out of talent vs squeezing blood from a turnip.
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It's really not that difficult. Do what the Redskins did in his rookie year, do what the 49ers did with Kap early on, do what the Hawks are doing with Wilson. I don't get why people feel like you have to have a typical classic dropback passer who doesn't move in order to win. That's just bullshit. RG3, Kap, Wilson, you couldn't stop them when they were in those offenses in the NFL. But because they didn't throw 8 touchdowns each game and don't win the Superbowl each year people use that as an example that this type of QB / offense doesn't work in the NFL which is just horseshit. We have like 30 dropback QB's in the NFL go figure every year that ONE scrambling QB is almost a lock for the Superbowl with the Seahawks. Meanwhile you have 30 other dropback passers that aren't good enough outside of Brady and A-Rod. So how can you say pocket passer = success and mobile QBs = failure? It makes no damn sense. Not talking to you now, just what people always bring up when you want to change the offense and try something else instead of doing what everybody else does, those same myths that exist since the 40s or something. The game is changing, so adapt.
 
JB said:
Check some of what Hook Em has posted regarding that dysfunctional team. I don't believe he was ever given much of a chance there, but yeah it's a crapshoot with a much higher ceiling than Hoyer (I know, doesn't take much) and much lower injury risk than RGIII. I liked of what I saw in the few games I watched him play. He showed poise and good accuracy with plenty of arm strength
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The fact that Lovie didn't trade him away when he allegedly had multiple suitors is a positive. He looks like he is framed a lot like Mallett/Foles. Hopefully he is a little more mobile than either of them. Whatever way the Texans go - draft, trade, FA - it doesn't look like anyone is going to automatically be The Guy. I would at least like to have a vet on the roster who has accomplished something. The Hoyer/Mallett/Yates/Weeden type guys need to be gone.
 
sandman said:
The fact that Lovie didn't trade him away when he allegedly had multiple suitors is a positive. He looks like he is framed a lot like Mallett/Foles. Hopefully he is a little more mobile than either of them. Whatever way the Texans go - draft, trade, FA - it doesn't look like anyone is going to automatically be The Guy. I would at least like to have a vet on the roster who has accomplished something. The Hoyer/Mallett/Yates/Weeden type guys need to be gone.
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So who do you see available that has accomplished something? Teams aren't letting go of a proven QB unless there are major problems.
 
sandman said:
The thing about Rodgers and McNair was that they were first round picks expected to be the franchise QB. Favre was the first pick of the 2nd round and was traded to GB the next year for the 19th pick in the first round. All of these guys came into the league with different expectations than Savage. Again, doesn't mean he can't/won't be successful. I just think we have been measuring him against the weakest set of peers that we could possibly imagine.
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I think you're confused by what people are expecting Savage to be. I don't think anyone is saying to start him thinking he might be the next Favre or Rodgers. Better than Hoyer is what we're shooting for here. Good Schaub hopeful. Continue searching for the franchise QB, but stop feeding us rethreads who can't/won't be any better than Savage.

RG3 might be better than Savage... who knows. Matthew Stafford hasn't lived up to what he was expected to be. Can Savage perform as well as Stafford has? Maybe. Would Stafford be better than Savage here? Maybe.

I personally don't think it's a bad idea to go with Savage if we're not going to use a 1st or 2nd round pick on a QB. Then we'll get to see what O'b & crew can do with a sufficiently talented young QB. Sure, he got decent production out of Fitz & Hoyer. Let's see what he can do from scratch.

I hope they fall in love with a guy in this draft. It would be nice if he's a first rounder. But if they don't...
 
Dre_80 said:
Have you ever watched any Redskins games? He was perfectly fine his rookie year when he played in THAT type of offense. He was perfectly fine in college in THAT offense. The injuries/hits didn't pile up until he asked Shanahan to turn him into a pocket passer, something he just isn't.
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You got it wrong Dre. He was operating in "That" type of offense when he got hurt. Shanahan screwed him up by throwing him back into "that" kind of offense even though he was still hurt. That's what led to additional injuries.

Gruden asked him to be a pocket passer & he was lost.

Most of the people here against bringing RG3 here believe he couldn't run "that" type of offense again, because he is not "that" kind of athlete anymore. He has to fast forward his evolution & become a pocket passer now, rather than later. & they don't believe he can do it.
 
Dre_80 said:
Have you ever watched any Redskins games? He was perfectly fine his rookie year when he played in THAT type of offense. He was perfectly fine in college in THAT offense. The injuries/hits didn't pile up until he asked Shanahan to turn him into a pocket passer, something he just isn't.
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Have you ever watched a read option offense and the subsequent contact a QB takes in it? Maybe noticed how contact fragile Griffin is?

This isn't rocket surgery.

And no QB has sustained success in this league without learning how to complete throws consistently from the pocket. Wilson and Cam are doing this, and guys like Manziel, Kaep, and Griffin will continue to struggle unless they do so too.

This is sorta brain science, or, QB from the neck up in the NFL.
 
sandman said:
The fact that Lovie didn't trade him away when he allegedly had multiple suitors is a positive. He looks like he is framed a lot like Mallett/Foles. Hopefully he is a little more mobile than either of them. Whatever way the Texans go - draft, trade, FA - it doesn't look like anyone is going to automatically be The Guy. I would at least like to have a vet on the roster who has accomplished something. The Hoyer/Mallett/Yates/Weeden type guys need to be gone.
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They never said publicly what offers they received. However did say that a few teams had been showing interest in Glennon. Lovie kept saying that he felt Glennon was the future until they had a chance to draft Winston. Like I said in the other thread, they got the chance to draft Winston because Lovie kept Glennon on the bench.

As for not trading Glennon I assume it's because they felt Glennon could still be their "future" if Winston came in and either looked horrible on the field or (probably more the case) started having off field issues ala Johnny Manziel. I think they kept him as an insurance policy.

Now that Winston looked pretty solid on and off the field, I would be very surprised if they don't trade Glennon this off season. Winston appears like he is going to be the face of the franchise for years go come. If they keep Glennon this season he will walk away as a FA the following off season with the Bucs getting nothing in return. IMO Glennon has gotten a raw deal here and despite that has remained a solid citizen and team mate. The only rumblings from his camp were when Lovie decided to go back to McCown (after an injury) when Glennon was clearly out performing him. Glennon's brother got on Twitter and blasted Lovie however Glennon himself just said all of the right things.

He'll get a shot at starting somewhere next season. I am pretty convinced at that. I'll be rooting for the guy where ever he ends up.
 
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Mollywhopper said:
Have you ever watched a read option offense and the subsequent contact a QB takes in it? Maybe noticed how contact fragile Griffin is?

This isn't rocket surgery.

And no QB has sustained success in this league without learning how to complete throws consistently from the pocket. Wilson and Cam are doing this, and guys like Manziel, Kaep, and Griffin will continue to struggle unless they do so too.

This is sorta brain science, or, QB from the neck up in the NFL.
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It has been proven that in the NFL, read option QBs have much higher risks of injuries because they can be hit just like RBs. RG and his high college academics may rival Fitzpatrick and Hoyer as academically smart "geniuses"............but none of them has even been able to learn not to slide head first.
 
thunderkyss said:
I think you're confused by what people are expecting Savage to be. I don't think anyone is saying to start him thinking he might be the next Favre or Rodgers. Better than Hoyer is what we're shooting for here. Good Schaub hopeful. Continue searching for the franchise QB, but stop feeding us rethreads who can't/won't be any better than Savage.

RG3 might be better than Savage... who knows. Matthew Stafford hasn't lived up to what he was expected to be. Can Savage perform as well as Stafford has? Maybe. Would Stafford be better than Savage here? Maybe.

I personally don't think it's a bad idea to go with Savage if we're not going to use a 1st or 2nd round pick on a QB. Then we'll get to see what O'b & crew can do with a sufficiently talented young QB. Sure, he got decent production out of Fitz & Hoyer. Let's see what he can do from scratch.

I hope they fall in love with a guy in this draft. It would be nice if he's a first rounder. But if they don't...
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I didn't mean to imply that ANYONE thought Savage was on the Rodgers/Favre track. You don't have to be a Rodgers/Favre to be a franchise QB. I just want more than "better than Hoyer" or "hopefully Good Schaub". I want Good Schaub as a minimum. I think that is a realistic expectation.

And I agree on the retreads. If they can't be better than Savage then keeping looking. I was going to type that we just need to be prepared for a rough season, but who would have thought OB would have got to the playoffs with shitkickers like Hoyer, Mallett, Yates and Weeden.

As far as Stafford goes, outside of his rookie season (and most of second season when he was on IR), he has averaged 4,600 yards, 60%+ completions, 29 TD's and 14 INT's per season the last 5 years. It's not his fault that the defensive ranking has yo-yo'd every other year between good and bad. Or that Detroit is incapable of developing a running game. He still took them to the playoffs twice. I'd be willing to research those stats against other 1:1 QB's drafted in the last decade.

Stafford is 27 years old and has 25k+ passing yards and 175 TD's. No offense to Savage, but system or no system, they are not in the same league. And because of that, I think IF Detroit was willing to let him go, their price would be way too steep for the Texans to play.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
It has been proven that in the NFL, read option QBs have much higher risks of injuries because they can be hit just like RBs. RG and his high college academics may rival Fitzpatrick and Hoyer as academically smart "geniuses"............but none of them has even been able to learn not to slide head first.
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Yeah, but Fitz has a magic beard protecting him...
 
thunderkyss said:
You got it wrong Dre. He was operating in "That" type of offense when he got hurt. Shanahan screwed him up by throwing him back into "that" kind of offense even though he was still hurt. That's what led to additional injuries.

Gruden asked him to be a pocket passer & he was lost.

Most of the people here against bringing RG3 here believe he couldn't run "that" type of offense again, because he is not "that" kind of athlete anymore. He has to fast forward his evolution & become a pocket passer now, rather than later. & they don't believe he can do it.
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Look I appreciate your intake but I've followed him every game since he came out of Baylor. Read a little bit up on him, what went on over his career, the interviews Shanahan did after he was fired and so on. Whatever happened in that Ravens game happens to anybody at any point any given time. It's football. Go look up how many shots Big Ben or Carson Palmer took to their knees sitting in the pocket. Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Trent Green, line them all up there and compare that to Russell Wilson or Kaepernick or even RG3. And look at this thing the correct way. He took one big hit his rookie year where his knee got bent, it ended up being a freak accident that affected him the next few years. You act like he took the same hit to his knee every single game because of his playing style. That's absurd. It happened once and from that point on he was limited. That's not a playing style issue, it's playing football. He was perfectly fine the other 15 games that year, not once were there any issues or worries that he's getting killed in that offense. That's absurd.

Fast forward a few more years and he's getting shredded in Gruden's offense. Each snap he takes a huge hit in the pocket because he can't make quick decisions if there's pass rush, go look at the preseason games. He takes a lot of hits. You DON'T want him in THAT type of offense where he's sitting in the pocket. Just trust me on this. He has never shown any type of ability to do that so I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Because putting him in that offense makes no sense. Whether you want to believe it or not, the read option is the only offense he will function in and can dominate in and I have zero worries about him getting injured in that type of offense. He has no history of that outside of that one fluke play against the Ravens where he took too long to get to the ground. You use him as a pocket passer without elite pass protection and you're going to kill him.
 
Dre_80 said:
Fast forward a few more years and he's getting shredded in Gruden's offense. Each snap he takes a huge hit in the pocket because he can't make quick decisions if there's pass rush, go look at the preseason games. He takes a lot of hits. You DON'T want him in THAT type of offense where he's sitting in the pocket. Just trust me on this. He has never shown any type of ability to do that so I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Because putting him in that offense makes no sense. Whether you want to believe it or not, the read option is the only offense he will function in and can dominate in and I have zero worries about him getting injured in that type of offense. He has no history of that outside of that one fluke play against the Ravens where he took too long to get to the ground. You use him as a pocket passer without elite pass protection and you're going to kill him.
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We're saying the same thing.

Most of the people here saying they don't want RGIII is because they think he lost a step or two. They don't believe he is that same athlete.

You seem to have no doubt.
 
Mollywhopper said:
Have you ever watched a read option offense and the subsequent contact a QB takes in it? Maybe noticed how contact fragile Griffin is?

This isn't rocket surgery.

And no QB has sustained success in this league without learning how to complete throws consistently from the pocket. Wilson and Cam are doing this, and guys like Manziel, Kaep, and Griffin will continue to struggle unless they do so too.

This is sorta brain science, or, QB from the neck up in the NFL.
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Alright first of all RG3 tore his knee and he suffered a concussion. He could be 10,000 pounds of muscle and it wouldn't make a difference, it has nothing to do with being fragile or not. I guess Big Ben is fragile since he's always hurt. Guess what, when you get hit a lot that stuff sort of happens.

Secondly nobody says that read option means that you're not allowed to throw from the pocket. Of course you have to throw from the pocket every once in a while, what do you think Russell Wilson does, Cam Newton, Kaepernick, go look at RG3 in his rookie year. Of course they all can throw the ball from the pocket. How many zone read QBs are there that dominated in that type of offense? Cam, Russell, Kaep, RG3? Look at that! 4 out of 4. Huh. How about those pocket passers? There are plenty of shitty ones out there. So what kind of logic are we using here?
 
Dre_80 said:
Look I appreciate your intake but I've followed him every game since he came out of Baylor. Read a little bit up on him, what went on over his career, the interviews Shanahan did after he was fired and so on. Whatever happened in that Ravens game happens to anybody at any point any given time. It's football. Go look up how many shots Big Ben or Carson Palmer took to their knees sitting in the pocket. Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Trent Green, line them all up there and compare that to Russell Wilson or Kaepernick or even RG3. And look at this thing the correct way. He took one big hit his rookie year where his knee got bent, it ended up being a freak accident that affected him the next few years. You act like he took the same hit to his knee every single game because of his playing style. That's absurd. It happened once and from that point on he was limited. That's not a playing style issue, it's playing football. He was perfectly fine the other 15 games that year, not once were there any issues or worries that he's getting killed in that offense. That's absurd.

Fast forward a few more years and he's getting shredded in Gruden's offense. Each snap he takes a huge hit in the pocket because he can't make quick decisions if there's pass rush, go look at the preseason games. He takes a lot of hits. You DON'T want him in THAT type of offense where he's sitting in the pocket. Just trust me on this. He has never shown any type of ability to do that so I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Because putting him in that offense makes no sense. Whether you want to believe it or not, the read option is the only offense he will function in and can dominate in and I have zero worries about him getting injured in that type of offense. He has no history of that outside of that one fluke play against the Ravens where he took too long to get to the ground. You use him as a pocket passer without elite pass protection and you're going to kill him.
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If you watched him in college you realize he injured the same knee at Baylor as well. Its not that certain types of QB's are more susceptible to injuries, but a read option QB relies on his legs a lot more, not just for speed but for quick cuts which if you watch football you realize most ACL injuries are actually non contact from making these cuts. He has had not 1 but 2 to the same knee, with the 2nd time getting damaged again because it was never allowed to heal properly. So to me he is at higher risk now for that injury then other QBs especially with so much of his game being based around his running ability which you have pointed out.

Also you like to bring up the success of read option QBs, and sure they have had success lately in the league ill give you that, but they all had great run games to back them up, and some good defenses. However only 2 are currently finding success still in the NFL, Newton and Wilson, and both have made great strides to be better pocket passers where as RG3 and Kaep have not.
 
Dre_80 said:
Alright first of all RG3 tore his knee and he suffered a concussion. He could be 10,000 pounds of muscle and it wouldn't make a difference, it has nothing to do with being fragile or not. I guess Big Ben is fragile since he's always hurt. Guess what, when you get hit a lot that stuff sort of happens.

Secondly nobody says that read option means that you're not allowed to throw from the pocket. Of course you have to throw from the pocket every once in a while, what do you think Russell Wilson does, Cam Newton, Kaepernick, go look at RG3 in his rookie year. Of course they all can throw the ball from the pocket. How many zone read QBs are there that dominated in that type of offense? Cam, Russell, Kaep, RG3? Look at that! 4 out of 4. Huh. How about those pocket passers? There are plenty of shitty ones out there. So what kind of logic are we using here?
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I never said Griffin was fragile because he got hurt. Roethlisberger is still playing because he's Big Ben, in spite of the hits he's taken. Griffin's slight build absolutely leaves him susceptible to injury, especially when exposed to more contact, ala the zone read. You seem to be getting causation and simple physics all fudged up.

And you have to be able to throw from the pocket and read defenses first. Griffin and Kaep have been slow to do this. Wilson and Newton's games are relevant now precisely because they have. Outside of that no, I don't know what kind of logic you think you're using trying to say there have been shitty pocket passers. That's completely irrelevant.

I really don't know why you're so insistent on turning simple concepts into a convoluted mess.
 
Dre_80 said:
Look I appreciate your intake but I've followed him every game since he came out of Baylor. Read a little bit up on him, what went on over his career, the interviews Shanahan did after he was fired and so on. Whatever happened in that Ravens game happens to anybody at any point any given time. It's football. Go look up how many shots Big Ben or Carson Palmer took to their knees sitting in the pocket. Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Trent Green, line them all up there and compare that to Russell Wilson or Kaepernick or even RG3. And look at this thing the correct way. He took one big hit his rookie year where his knee got bent, it ended up being a freak accident that affected him the next few years. You act like he took the same hit to his knee every single game because of his playing style. That's absurd. It happened once and from that point on he was limited. That's not a playing style issue, it's playing football. He was perfectly fine the other 15 games that year, not once were there any issues or worries that he's getting killed in that offense. That's absurd.

Fast forward a few more years and he's getting shredded in Gruden's offense. Each snap he takes a huge hit in the pocket because he can't make quick decisions if there's pass rush, go look at the preseason games. He takes a lot of hits. You DON'T want him in THAT type of offense where he's sitting in the pocket. Just trust me on this. He has never shown any type of ability to do that so I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Because putting him in that offense makes no sense. Whether you want to believe it or not, the read option is the only offense he will function in and can dominate in and I have zero worries about him getting injured in that type of offense. He has no history of that outside of that one fluke play against the Ravens where he took too long to get to the ground. You use him as a pocket passer without elite pass protection and you're going to kill him.
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Somehow, you keep leaving out his ankle dislocation injury which is usually involves multiple ligament damage and cartilage damage. This is far from a minor injury, and could have even more effect on his future than his knee injuries. As no fracture was encountered, a nonsurgical approach was taken. It is very likely that the ligaments of his ankle that were torn will heal in a stretched condition and will not have gone back to secure tightness. It is very likely once he gets back into hard game competition that ankle instability will be present and there will be high risk for ankle re-injury (or even other compensatory injuries) that would ultimately require surgery to address at least the ligaments.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Somehow, you keep leaving out his ankle dislocation injury which is usually involves multiple ligament damage and cartilage damage. This is far from a minor injury, and could have even more effect on his future than his knee injuries. As no fracture was encountered, a nonsurgical approach was taken. It is very likely that the ligaments of his ankle that were torn will heal in a stretched condition and will not have gone back to secure tightness. It is very likely once he gets back into hard game competition that ankle instability will be present and there will be high risk for ankle re-injury (or even other compensatory injuries) that would ultimately require surgery to address at least the ligaments.
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Are there footwear designs that can help stabilize the ankle with minimal effect on range of motion, or is it one way or the other: stabilization or range of motion?
 
DocBar said:
Are there footwear designs that can help stabilize the ankle with minimal effect on range of motion, or is it one way or the other: stabilization or range of motion?
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Here is an old 2013 post on ankle taping and its implications...........ankle braces to a somewhat lesser degree, but still quite concerning.

CloakNNNdagger said:
OB, you’ve brought up a concept which is unfortunately so often ignored by those who should know better........that is, the concept of “mobility” and “stability” joints. This plays a major role in a subject that I’ve brought up numerous times in discussions of joint injuries...........i.e., when one joint is injured and not given adequate time to heal, risk of injury to an adjacent or contralateral joint increases immensely. The concept you have brought up goes a long way in explaining the serious contributor to this phenomenon.
And, yes, I firmly stand by the thinking that excessive ankle taping can and does lead to undue stress and risk to especially knee injury. Taping an ankle is actually much more inhibitive then an ankle brace, because it is wrapped so much tighter around the ankle. When you try to move laterally (side to side), your ankle will be protected from another sprain. But your knee will be at a high risk for an ACL tear since, outside of flexion and extension, the ligaments in the knee cannot move very far without tearing. If the ankle is all taped up and your body cannot get the lateral mobility from the ankle, it will move up to the next joint (the knee) and get it there. Unfortunately, since the knee is not mobile, it will simply move outside it’s natural and safe range of motion and one of the ligaments can easily tear.

Furthermore, relying on taping will actually weaken the muscle and hinder rehab of the related muscle groups. Just as you do with your clients, it is wisest to make them rely mostly on strengthening their”supporting” muscles, not tape or a brace, to rehab them quicker and safer. That’s where they will regain their ROM and gain protection from recurrent injury most predictably and most quickly.

BTW, a perfect example of not adhering to these principles in the “real” world, is the frequent use by grocery workers, warehouse stockers, and heavy laborers of those G-d awful wide black belts with suspenders meant to protect the back. These have been shown to weaken the back, since the back muscles are not forced to strengthen, and, in fact, to result in the opposite effect of which they were meant.
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Mollywhopper said:
I really don't know why you're so insistent on turning simple concepts into a convoluted mess.
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It's called taking something simple and making it complicated in order to carry out a discussion.

Occam would take his razor and slit his throat with it if he hung out here for too long.
 
sandman said:
Not sure what you mean exactly by "put together" but 6'2" and 222 lbs isn't even close to being the smallest/frailest QB in the league. He outweighs Cousins by 20 lbs.
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- You're off your tit if you think Cousins is 202 lbs.

- Cousins isn't running the zone read.

- Not all heights/weights are built the same.

Griffin is all elbows and knees flailing around when he runs. A guy like Cam can run around because he's built like a Panzer. Roethlisberger can take shots because he's a monolith. Russell Wilson can run around because he's much more stout and compact than his height might indicate, and he's a human crumple zone who never takes flush impact. Robert Griffin is none of those things. He's not built to withstand punishment.
 
Robert Griffin III is a classy guy who doesn't make excuses and just works hard. A lot of guys in his position would have caused a lot of drama but he kept his head up even when cleaning out his locker and walking out of the Redskins stadium for the last time.

He's the type of player you want to see overcome all the injury setbacks, adversity and criticism. It's hard not to cheer for a player like him. I'll be damn proud to wear my Robert Griffin III Texans jersey once he's signed.

I'm trying my best not to read all of the negative comments written on here because I know when the Houston Texans sign RG3, I'm going to be very excited. All the haters can hate all they want. I just want to watch some good football being played.

I tried to contact RG3 earlier today on social media. Just to say he has a hardcore fan in me if he comes to the Houston Texans. We're a great fan base where it matters the most "passion wise." He'd become a king here especially if he plays well.

Robert Griffin III will start here as well. If he goes to Dallas he'd backup Tony Romo. There is no doubt in my mind RG3 wants to start.
 
Bulls on Parade said:
Robert Griffin III is a classy guy who doesn't make excuses and just works hard. A lot of guys in his position would have caused a lot of drama but he kept his head up even when cleaning out his locker and walking out of the Redskins stadium for the last time.

He's the type of player you want to see overcome all the injury setbacks, adversity and criticism. It's hard not to cheer for a player like him. I'll be damn proud to wear my Robert Griffin III Texans jersey once he's signed.

I'm trying my best not to read all of the negative comments written on here because I know when the Houston Texans sign RG3, I'm going to be very excited. All the haters can hate all they want. I just want to watch some good football being played.

I tried to contact RG3 earlier today on social media. Just to say he has a hardcore fan in me if he comes to the Houston Texans. We're a great fan base where it matters the most "passion wise." He'd become a king here especially if he plays well.

Robert Griffin III will start here as well. If he goes to Dallas he'd backup Tony Romo. There is no doubt in my mind RG3 wants to start.
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There's a reason that there are reports of attitude problems and locker room issues with RGIII. Personally, I put them on sides being taken during a pissing match between Shannahan and Snyder, then adding in a coaching change to a coach whose system in anathema to RGIII's playing style.

Now I like RGIII's upside a lot. I think OB has shown an innate ability to tailor his offense to different QB's. That usually means cutting it back, because the two guys who "know it" were somewhere between train wrecks and Chernobyl. I'm showing some faith in OB, warranted or not, because he's the guy making the calls and I don't have much choice, so I'm making the best of it.

Your posts on this subject range between total man-crush and the absurd.

Well, that kind of encapsulates a lot of your posts. :kitten:
 
Mollywhopper said:
- You're off your tit if you think Cousins is 202 lbs.
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I think what you mean to say is that NFL.com and ESPN are both off their tits because he is listed at 202 lbs on both sites.

And of course not all QB's are built the same. He took a shot to the knee. That is going to injure anyone. I'm not sure if you are insinuating that these other QB's would not have been injured in that same situation because of their body types, but it sounds like you are. Or that you simply have a bias against RGIII and are looking for proving points. No one is forcing you to like the guy. Everyone gets an opinion. You just seem to be going out of your way to discredit the guy. Guess we'll just agree to disagree about the man.
 
sandman said:
I think what you mean to say is that NFL.com and ESPN are both off their tits because he is listed at 202 lbs on both sites.

And of course not all QB's are built the same. He took a shot to the knee. That is going to injure anyone. I'm not sure if you are insinuating that these other QB's would not have been injured in that same situation because of their body types, but it sounds like you are. Or that you simply have a bias against RGIII and are looking for proving points. No one is forcing you to like the guy. Everyone gets an opinion. You just seem to be going out of your way to discredit the guy. Guess we'll just agree to disagree about the man.
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I mean to say you are off of yours if you believe that. He weighed 214 at the combine 4 years ago. And you can just look at him.

I'm not insinuating that about those other QB's. Anyone can get their knee busted, of course. I'm playing the odds based on body type and playing style. If it wasn't his knee he was going to find an injury sooner than later because of his body type and running the zone read along with not knowing how to get himself down safely. And I gave perfectly sound reasons why those other guys stand a better chance of holding up.

I don't have a bias against Griffin, nor do I care to discredit him. In fact I've said earlier, in this thread mind, that I'm supportive of him coming here to compete. What I am against, and what started this particular line of debate, is the idea of Griffin going back to playing a zone read as a base offense and thinking he'd last more than a minute without being back in a sling.

Guess we can agree to disagree about that if you'd like.
 
At Michigan, Cousins played his last year at 214......his Combine weight His early Michigan State weight was ~202. Its hard to believe that he lost 12 pounds since coming to the NFL, with NFL weight training and all.
 
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All I'm saying is there have been quite a few high round fizzles at qb that change of scenery made the difference. Whether it was Steve Young or Vinny Testaverde. I highly doubt Cam would be the mvp if his coach was fired and they tried to make him play like Brady or Manning.

If anyone listens to the panthers gm. He said Cam throws high balls. Thats why they drafted Benjamin and Funchess. They designed the offense around Cam and they have 12 designed runs for him. The coach was almost fired, they were in trouble, then they got hot, won a terrible division and lost in playoffs. They came back minus Benjamin and went 15-1, had the highest scoring offense with philly brown and ted ginn at wr. If you sign RG3, you move the pocket, take deep shots, and play action. Notice I didn't say bootlegs, I said move the pocket with sprint rollouts and stuff. You design the offense around him vs placing him in the box and making him fit. As he progresses, you add a little more.
 
Dear RG3: You Are Not an NFL QB

You are a legend only in your own mind. I tried to support you for as long as I could. I hoped against logic that you would learn from your mistakes but now I realize that is impossible. You don’t want to learn because learning would mean admitting fault.

You are failing in all aspects of the quarterback position: physically, mentally, socially and morally.
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I have tried to convince myself that RGIII could be something that he's not. But, history reveals things when we analyze with an objective perspective. I certainly hope the retread trend ends in 2016 for the Houston Texans. RGIII is not the answer.
 
Double Barrel said:
I have tried to convince myself that RGIII could be something that he's not. But, history reveals things when we analyze with an objective perspective. I certainly hope the retread trend ends in 2016 for the Houston Texans. RGIII is not the answer.
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From your link

Mentally, you are regressing. The first play of the game yesterday summarizes everything that is wrong with you. Rather than throwing to one of your first two options, who were clearly open, you scramble, shuffle, and throw an inaccurate pass which was then bobbled and intercepted. You then threw your hands up in the air like a baby. You think you did no wrong and Niles Paul should have caught the pass. You set the tone for all subsequent failures.
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Very telling

edit: Loved this line...
No matter how many times your dad tells you “you are great” I assure you he is wrong. You’re 24, bringing your dad to show and tell concluded at age 7.
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Double Barrel said:
I have tried to convince myself that RGIII could be something that he's not. But, history reveals things when we analyze with an objective perspective. I certainly hope the retread trend ends in 2016 for the Houston Texans. RGIII is not the answer.
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I'm not disagreeing with anything that YOU wrote. I've never said he IS the answer. I like him a lot better than any option on the current roster. But no, not thinking he is the saviour.

But that link is to an article written by a blogger who won his media job through a contest and is clearly writing from a fan perspective that lacks any modicum of professionalism or objectivity.
 
sandman said:
I'm not disagreeing with anything that YOU wrote. I've never said he IS the answer. I like him a lot better than any option on the current roster. But no, not thinking he is the saviour.

But that link is to an article written by a blogger who won his media job through a contest and is clearly writing from a fan perspective that lacks any modicum of professionalism or objectivity.
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C'mon man, you know the fans are never wrong... You've been here long enough to understand that :D
 
sandman said:
I'm not disagreeing with anything that YOU wrote. I've never said he IS the answer. I like him a lot better than any option on the current roster. But no, not thinking he is the saviour.

But that link is to an article written by a blogger who won his media job through a contest and is clearly writing from a fan perspective that lacks any modicum of professionalism or objectivity.
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He's also a lifelong Redskins fan.

I'm sure many of us could write a very compelling and insightful article entitled "Dear Brian Hoyer: You Are Not An NFL QB", regardless if we are paid professionals or 'just' dedicated fans.

Truth should not be judged by the messenger, but rather by the message itself. I see absolutely nothing untruthful about what is written in that article about RGIII. If you would like to provide solid evidence that he is incorrect in his assessment of RGIII, I'd love to read it. However, I think it will most likely be based on "ifs" and projected wishful thinking than RGIII's actual history in the NFL.

I've got a feeling that many Texans fans will whitewash RGIII's past if he is signed here in a rush of blind hope and optimism. Such is the nature of a fan. But, just like many of us called Hoyer for what he is and has always been last March 2015, I'm going to call it like I see it with RGIII, too. It does not mean that I'm rooting for him to fail, but rather I refuse to wear blinders just because it is our team making the decision.
 
Along with the fanbase understandably getting tired of not having a franchise QB, you would think that the fanbase would get tired of wanting a castoff with an injury history.
 
Marcus said:
Along with the fanbase understandably getting tired of not having a franchise QB, you would think that the fanbase would get tired of wanting a castoff with an injury history.
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Wanting yo bring in RGIII to compete with Savage and Lynch/Hack/trade up for Goff etc.... isn't the same as putting all of your hopes on RGIII.

RGIII has the ability to be a franchise QB. Will he be probably not, but his talent level is worth taking a shot on. If you miss what have you really lost?
 
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