pick 1.15 Kenyon Green G TAMU

[Texansballer74]

I remember some of the media and fans crucifying this young man for not being ready for camp on the first day. Didn’t have a clue he was still dealing with his injury. Even Caserio and company knew he wasn’t ready to go.

Moral of the story,” stop passing judgement without knowing all the facts. And stop believing what the media and these behind the scenes sources say all the times.

Lol

 

[DBCooper]

Have they brought in 3 OL in the last week?

yes

Nick Broeker, Kendrick Green, and Josh Jones

 

[steelbtexan]

Lets see: Caserio traded for 3 OL, drafted a C and re-signed Howard, but he didn't make an attempt to fix the OL. He also signed Broeker off of the Bills PS.

 

[Marcus]

Lets see: Caserio traded for 3 OL, drafted a C and re-signed Howard, but he didn't make an attempt to fix the OL. He also signed Broeker off of the Bills PS.

Yeah, he should be fired for not doing anything. Hell, in a couple of weeks, he might be stuck with surplus linemen, and he might be able to palm off one of them for a sixth rounder to some other desperate GM.

 

[Texansballer74]

Good questions, but it is Caserio's responsibility to acquire players. Who is playing LG? Some guy they acquired a week prior to the 1st game? That can't happen when you knew months ago that Green would need surgery. It was to quote Caserio a question of "not if, but when."

Yeah Caserio screwed the pooch on this one. Especially knowing Green wasn’t nowhere close.

 

[Porky]

Lets see: Caserio traded for 3 OL, drafted a C and re-signed Howard, but he didn't make an attempt to fix the OL. He also signed Broeker off of the Bills PS.

Are you forgetting the part where he knew Green was damaged goods back in May and that IR for him was a distinct likelihood?

 

[steelbtexan]

Are you forgetting the part where he knew Green was damaged goods back in May and that IR for him was a distinct likelihood?

I didn't forget crap,

Who did you want them to sign?

They've signed 3 guys that were former starters and a young guy. Did you think they were going to be able to add an all pro type guy?

The OL will be fine once Howard/Scruggs get back. If Scruggs is what we hope he is. This should happen in week 2-3.

 

[badboy]

Are you forgetting the part where he knew Green was damaged goods back in May and that IR for him was a distinct likelihood?

Wasn't Kenyon 'Damaged' before draft? Knee injuries for linemen common but I prefer not to draft one.

 

[Mr teX]

The only thing NC’s decision making about this situation tells u is that they were all in on their guy and they were going to give him the benefit of the doubt (no matter how slim a chance) & every opportunity to be the opening day starter week 1..period.

Bottom line is Making roster moves aren’t finite decisions…they have ripple effects up & down the roster and assets. So until such time they absolutely needed to make a roster move, they weren’t going to make any..

& I agree with that.

 

[76Texan]

I didn't forget crap,

Who did you want them to sign?

They've signed 3 guys that were former starters and a young guy. Did you think they were going to be able to add an all pro type guy?

The OL will be fine once Howard/Scruggs get back. If Scruggs is what we hope he is. This should happen in week 2-3.

Scruggs will be out for a minimum of 4 games.
I don't expect him to be effective when he first get back.
Same thing goes for Howard; he's still not practicing.

 

[TexansBull]

Geez, it's pretty clear you did not hear Caserio's comments on Green. He said the Texans KNEW IN MAY that Green would require surgery at some point. He KNEW that it was not a sure thing that Green could play through the injury they KNEW would require surgery. And Nick did squat about securing a backup plan until a week before the season opener. I mean they brought in 3 O-lineman, I guess there's a plan somewhere in there.

I'm not blaming Green for trying to play through an injury. He tried last year, so sure he's going to try, again. I'm blaming Nick Caserio for banking on Green being able to play and having no plan for the likelihood of Green not being able to go. The rest of your post, blah-blah, does not exonerate Nick Caserio of this stupid decision.

I think the original back up plan was Scruggs which means they were planning ahead. He would either fill in at C or G. Then Quessenbury went down. Scruggs then is C. Then Tytus went down. Then Caserio did get Josh Jones prior to Green going down. Then later he got two more OL players: Made another trade. He worked the waiver wire recently too. Got a player other teams try to claim.

It may be easier to work the system to get players in training camp and using the waiver wire.

NFL medical teams are bad. That is why it’s important for players to get a second opinion. That’s on Green.

Caserio should know better than to listen to a player that says they can play through injury. You know how that will end up. That’s on him.

 

[Earl34]

I remember some of the media and fans crucifying this young man for not being ready for camp on the first day. Didn’t have a clue he was still dealing with his injury. Even Caserio and company knew he wasn’t ready to go.

Moral of the story,” stop passing judgement without knowing all the facts. And stop believing what the media and these behind the scenes sources say all the times.

Lol

AT the beginning of camp, one of the sports shows mentioned he looked pudgy and out of shape. I guess for two years now, injuries have prevented him from really spending time in an NFL weight room. Hopefully, he can have surgery, recover and work with the strength and conditioning coaches.

 

[Porky]

I didn't forget crap,

Who did you want them to sign?

They've signed 3 guys that were former starters and a young guy. Did you think they were going to be able to add an all pro type guy?

The OL will be fine once Howard/Scruggs get back. If Scruggs is what we hope he is. This should happen in week 2-3.

so to you, a couple of desperation last minute moves equate to a plan?

Hope isn’t a plan. He hoped Green could make it through. It failed. He was caught in desperation mode, and brought in a few guys that they hope (there’s that word again) might be adequate for now.

Scruggs was never drafted to play G.He was drafted as a center. The fact that he cross trained a bit is for those desperate unplanned moments.

are we forgetting that by Nicks own words, this situation wasn’t a matter of if, but when? And that was months ago. Let me ask you…in April/May, what plan did Nick employ to lesson the impact in the likely event Green wouldn’t be a go this year?

And if your answer is trading for a couple of borderline guys 10 days before game 1, and grabbing a 7th rookie off the waiver wire, welcome to the Nick Casserio club, planning division.

 

[leebigeztx]

Wasn't Kenyon 'Damaged' before draft? Knee injuries for linemen common but I prefer not to draft one.

yep

 

[Mr teX]

so to you, a couple of desperation last minute moves equate to a plan?

Hope isn’t a plan. He hoped Green could make it through. It failed. He was caught in desperation mode, and brought in a few guys that they hope (there’s that word again) might be adequate for now.

Scruggs was never drafted to play G.He was drafted as a center. The fact that he cross trained a bit is for those desperate unplanned moments.

are we forgetting that by Nicks own words, this situation wasn’t a matter of if, but when? And that was months ago. Let me ask you…in April/May, what plan did Nick employ to lesson the impact in the likely event Green wouldn’t be a go this year?

And if your answer is trading for a couple of borderline guys 10 days before game 1, and grabbing a 7th rookie off the waiver wire, welcome to the Nick Casserio club, planning division.

“hope” is the mantra for every single NFL HC/GM bro b/c they all HOPE to not have their seasons derailed by injuries.

Furthermore, AGAIN, NC can know all he wants. Just b/c he knew or suspected doesn’t mean that there was anything more that could’ve been done than what he did in supposed “desperation mode”. The NFL ain’t Walmart where u can go and pick up a starting LG off the shelf when you need one. Things have to be considered before making moves that will/can alter the roster…..unless you prefer the BoB approach where he shipped off 2 1sts to get Tunsil 2-3 weeks for the season started. just about everyone on here panned that move b/c of the draft capital we lost….& he was an elite talent.

Panicking & Making ill -advised roster moves prematurely is how the 49ers have come out big time losers in 1 of the worst trades in NFL history with the Trey Lance situation.

 

[TexansBull]

Scruggs was never drafted to play G.He was drafted as a center. The fact that he cross trained a bit is for those desperate unplanned moments.

Say this part out loud to yourself again.

Now - remind yourself what we are talking about.

A desperate unplanned moment?

I think three starters going down at the same time is one of those desperate unplanned moments that Scruggs could fill in for.

The only part of this desperate unplanned moment is that Scruggs is one of the injured OL.

You want to desperately blame Caserio for this saying he wasn’t prepared but you yourself just admitted Scruggs was trained at G for a desperate moment.

Blame him for it more indirectly getting Green to see another doctor or having the surgery. But that isn’t his job is it?

But to say he wasn’t prepared -
Drafted two OL
Traded for OL prior to Green’s injury
Traded for OL after Green’s injury
Picked up OL through WW after Green’s injury

What else would you have had him do?

 

[76Texan]

Say this part out loud to yourself again.

Now - remind yourself what we are talking about.

A desperate unplanned moment?

I think three starters going down at the same time is one of those desperate unplanned moments that Scruggs could fill in for.

The only part of this desperate unplanned moment is that Scruggs is one of the injured OL.

You want to desperately blame Caserio for this saying he wasn’t prepared but you yourself just admitted Scruggs was trained at G for a desperate moment.

Blame him for it more indirectly getting Green to see another doctor or having the surgery. But that isn’t his job is it?

But to say he wasn’t prepared -
Drafted two OL
Traded for OL prior to Green’s injury
Traded for OL after Green’s injury
Picked up OL through WW after Green’s injury

What else would you have had him do?

To pick the right guy in the first place.

I never thought Green was deserving of his draft slot.

And that's not even counting his knee problem.

Duane Brown was what? 26th.
For a LT, that's a great spot and a buy.

For a Guard with knee issue at 15 is an iffy proposition.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

I remember some of the media and fans crucifying this young man for not being ready for camp on the first day. Didn’t have a clue he was still dealing with his injury. Even Caserio and company knew he wasn’t ready to go.

Moral of the story,” stop passing judgement without knowing all the facts. And stop believing what the media and these behind the scenes sources say all the times.

Lol

I've been posting on his injuries forever. His knee, his pec and his shoulder. At this point, when you are assessing a player with a history of left pec followed by a left labrum injury, you take into consideration what position they play. An offensive lineman with these injuries is extremely unlikely to be able to conservatively rehab without re-injury and without extending the damage. The team physician is the one that should know that. He, not the player nor the coach or GM are expected to have that knowledge and act upon it. Of course, today with NFL team doctors paying significant monies for the privilege of their position, they too often seem to veer from their ethical duties to the patient/player...........ultimately being influenced in their medical decisions by their business relationship to the team.

At the time of the pec injury last year, there was already associated concern with his labrum. To begin with, the pec injury typically results in weakening of the shoulder to some extent. This was further agravated by being put back at LG using his outstretched left arm to hold back the D (the same mechanism for his pec injury). Surgery was always going to ultimately be necessary for him to practice his trade.

I will take it a step further. I've previously emphasized that Green was never a quick, light on his feet player. Add to that 2 meniscus excisions (not repairs) leaving him well on his way to future microfracture surgery, his ability to move quickly and square off with a defender on his left is definitely even more strongly compromised................with him frequently having to compensate by holding his opponent back with an outstretched arm...........putting all of the weight and leverage of his opponent on his arm............placing him in a perfect position for his arm/shoulder to be torqued backwards resulting in serious shoulder injury.

Whoever participated in the decision for him to rehab then practice/play before addressing his problem surgically was wrong. Saying it was wrong is not a 20/20 hindsight, it should have been a 20/20 foresight.

 

[76Texan]

Say this part out loud to yourself again.

Now - remind yourself what we are talking about.

A desperate unplanned moment?

I think three starters going down at the same time is one of those desperate unplanned moments that Scruggs could fill in for.

The only part of this desperate unplanned moment is that Scruggs is one of the injured OL.

You want to desperately blame Caserio for this saying he wasn’t prepared but you yourself just admitted Scruggs was trained at G for a desperate moment.

Blame him for it more indirectly getting Green to see another doctor or having the surgery. But that isn’t his job is it?

But to say he wasn’t prepared -
Drafted two OL
Traded for OL prior to Green’s injury
Traded for OL after Green’s injury
Picked up OL through WW after Green’s injury

What else would you have had him do?

For a Guard, Brandon Brooks in the mid third was a great value and a strong buy.
He cần play both the power scheme and the zone scheme.
I was very impressed that he can connect on the second level.
For a lineman that big, it's often very easy for LB to leave him in the dirt.
But BB was able to connect on those blocks, or at least híndering the movement of the LB.
Not so with Green.

 

[TexansBull]

To pick the right guy in the first place.

I never thought Green was deserving of his draft slot.

And that's not even counting his knee problem.

Duane Brown was what? 26th.
For a LT, that's a great spot and a buy.

For a Guard with knee issue at 15 is an iffy proposition.

That’s not the topic right now.

 

[TexansBull]

For a Guard, Brandon Brooks in the mid third was a great value and a strong buy.
He cần play both the power scheme and the zone scheme.
I was very impressed that he can connect on the second level.
For a lineman that big, it's often very easy for LB to leave him in the dirt.
But BB was able to connect on those blocks, or at least híndering the movement of the LB.
Not so with Green.

Tangent.

 

[steelbtexan]

I've been posting on his injuries forever. His knee, his pec and his shoulder. At this point, when you are assessing a player with a history of left pec followed by a left labrum injury, you take into consideration what position they play. An offensive lineman with these injuries is extremely unlikely to be able to conservatively rehab without re-injury and without extending the damage. The team physician is the one that should know that. He, not the player nor the coach or GM are expected to have that knowledge and act upon it. Of course, today with NFL team doctors paying significant monies for the privilege of their position, they too often seem to veer from their ethical duties to the patient/player...........ultimately being influenced in their medical decisions by their business relationship to the team.

At the time of the pec injury last year, there was already associated concern with his labrum. To begin with, the pec injury typically results in weakening of the shoulder to some extent. This was further agravated by being put back at LG using his outstretched left arm to hold back the D (the same mechanism for his pec injury). Surgery was always going to ultimately be necessary for him to practice his trade.

I will take it a step further. I've previously emphasized that Green was never a quick, light on his feet player. Add to that 2 meniscus excisions (not repairs) leaving him well on his way to future microfracture surgery, his ability to move quickly and square off with a defender on his left is definitely even more strongly compromised................with him frequently having to compensate by holding his opponent back with an outstretched arm...........putting all of the weight and leverage of his opponent on his arm............placing him in a perfect position for his arm/shoulder to be torqued backwards resulting in serious shoulder injury.

Whoever participated in the decision for him to rehab then practice/play before addressing his problem surgically was wrong. Saying it was wrong is not a 20/20 hindsight, it should have been a 20/20 foresight.

The kinda stuff you can only get on this MB.

Also even after the surgery, with his knee it seems like reinjury is quite possible due to his knee. This is looking like a wasted pick. Unfortunately

 

[beerlover]

Caserio could have avoided this if he never drafted Green in the first place. Secondly, it’s generally not wise to draft an OG in the first round unless he’s generational. Third, this pick was planned after the first pick (CB Stingley). Even if he wasn’t into the Sauce (same position) he was showing tendency to draft for need over BPA. What makes this ultra frustrating for me was he had no long term vision. At least not until DeMeco Ryans was hired to change things.

Whether we or Nick likes it, he is the ultimate party responsible, he knows it too. This is not on Green!

 

[Lucky]

Of course, today with NFL team doctors paying significant monies for the privilege of their position, they too often seem to veer from their ethical duties to the patient/player...........ultimately being influenced in their medical decisions by their business relationship to the team.

What we (the message board) do not understand is the dynamic between the team doctors and the organization. Who hires them? Who do they report to? If the team doctors didn't recommend surgery in Green's case, it seems like they are not protecting what is essentially an asset to the organization. They are not serving the player or the team's best interest. Unless the team doesn't understand what their best interest really is.

 

[steelbtexan]

Caserio could have avoided this if he never drafted Green in the first place. Secondly, it’s generally not wise to draft an OG in the first round unless he’s generational. Third, this pick was planned after the first pick (CB Stingley). Even if he wasn’t into the Sauce (same position) he was showing tendency to draft for need over BPA. What makes this ultra frustrating for me was he had no long term vision. At least not until DeMeco Ryans was hired to change things.

Whether we or Nick likes it, he is the ultimate party responsible, he knows it too. This is not on Green!

Do you like the Zion pick?

Caserio was getting the guys Lovie wanted and now he's getting the guys Ryans wants.

Looking back the pick should have been Linderbaum. I wanted Davis with the 13th pick, but liked the Green pick. I didn't know he was coming off of a surgery, or Zion would have been my pick if they had to have an og. He would have been well worth the 15th pick after a trade down. IMHO

Looks like under Ryans they stopped taking hurt guys with high picks.

 

[steelbtexan]

What we (the message board) do not understand is the dynamic between the team doctors and the organization. Who hires them? Who do they report to? If the team doctors didn't recommend surgery in Green's case, it seems like they are not protecting what is essentially an asset to the organization. They are not serving the player or the team's best interest. Unless the team doesn't understand what their best interest really is.

I believe CnD understands this dynamic.

 

[Lucky]

I believe CnD understands this dynamic.

There's no doubt. But that's one of 5,000.

 

[Lucky]

Secondly, it’s generally not wise to draft an OG in the first round unless he’s generational.

Did anyone know Zach Martin was "generational"? Tennessee took Skoronski as an OG and I thought that was an outstanding selection. It's not a good idea to draft an OG in the 1st tound if it doesn't work out. If it does work out, "Well of course you take that OG in the 1st. He's generational."

 

[badboy]

There's no doubt. But that's one of 5,000.

I wish more of those 5,000 would interact on the board.

 

[Lucky]

I wish more of those 5,000 would interact on the board.

We've lost some good posters over the years for various reasons. I think discussions will perk up once the Texans start becoming competitive.

 

[Earl34]

Do you like the Zion pick?

Caserio was getting the guys Lovie wanted and now he's getting the guys Ryans wants.

Looking back the pick should have been Linderbaum. I wanted Davis with the 13th pick, but liked the Green pick. I didn't know he was coming off of a surgery, or Zion would have been my pick if they had to have an og. He would have been well worth the 15th pick after a trade down. IMHO

Looks like under Ryans they stopped taking hurt guys with high picks.

Lovie is a defensive coach with a history of bad offenses. What is he doing selecting offensive players? If your statements are true, it still doesn't absolve Caserio for some of these picks. As far as the OL, Caserio inherited Tunsil and Howard. How has he improved the other spots on the OL? All these signings and draft picks and the OL is still a mess.

At this point, it doesn't matter if the OL picks are Lovie or Culley, they were signed on Caserio's watch. He is the GM.

 

[Texian]

Caserio could have avoided this if he never drafted Green in the first place. Secondly, it’s generally not wise to draft an OG in the first round unless he’s generational. Third, this pick was planned after the first pick (CB Stingley). Even if he wasn’t into the Sauce (same position) he was showing tendency to draft for need over BPA. What makes this ultra frustrating for me was he had no long term vision. At least not until DeMeco Ryans was hired to change things.

Whether we or Nick likes it, he is the ultimate party responsible, he knows it too. This is not on Green!

Do you like the Zion pick?

Caserio was getting the guys Lovie wanted and now he's getting the guys Ryans wants.

Looking back the pick should have been Linderbaum. I wanted Davis with the 13th pick, but liked the Green pick. I didn't know he was coming off of a surgery, or Zion would have been my pick if they had to have an og. He would have been well worth the 15th pick after a trade down. IMHO

Looks like under Ryans they stopped taking hurt guys with high picks.

Green was a George Warhop draft pick, promised to him by Lovie as an incentive to take the job. Warhop loved him some 34" arms, that was his #1 priority for OL.

I said from the get-go that the Texans would totally screw up the Watson ransom, this was strike one.

Jordan Davis at #13 was the right pick, IMO. He was my pick at #13.

 

[steelbtexan]

Did anyone know Zach Martin was "generational"? Tennessee took Skoronski as an OG and I thought that was an outstanding selection. It's not a good idea to draft an OG in the 1st tound if it doesn't work out. If it does work out, "Well of course you take that OG in the 1st. He's generational."

Don't take injured guys in the 1st

Green was a George Warhop draft pick, promised to him by Lovie as an incentive to take the job. Warhop loved him some 34" arms, that was his #1 priority for OL.

I said from the get-go that the Texans would totally screw up the Watson ransom, this was strike one.

Jordan Davis at #13 was the right pick, IMO. He was my pick at #13.

Davis was my guy too.

 

[Porky]

Green was a George Warhop draft pick, promised to him by Lovie as an incentive to take the job. Warhop loved him some 34" arms, that was his #1 priority for OL.

I said from the get-go that the Texans would totally screw up the Watson ransom, this was strike one.

Jordan Davis at #13 was the right pick, IMO. He was my pick at #13.

Davis was my pick as well. Sadly, Nick wouldn't take my call that night. The bastard!

 

[Number19]

Caserio could have avoided this if he never drafted Green in the first place. Secondly, it’s generally not wise to draft an OG in the first round unless he’s generational. Third, this pick was planned after the first pick (CB Stingley). Even if he wasn’t into the Sauce (same position) he was showing tendency to draft for need over BPA. What makes this ultra frustrating for me was he had no long term vision. At least not until DeMeco Ryans was hired to change things.

Whether we or Nick likes it, he is the ultimate party responsible, he knows it too. This is not on Green!

Yes, I agree that the buck stops with Caserio. But with the coaching carousel of 2021 and 2022, and not knowing what went on internally with the Texans, I going to think that the decision to draft Green lies primarily with Lovie Smith and George Warhop. Of course these two are no longer here and we need a scapegoat to blame, so that has to be Caserio. We also have no idea of what exactly the Texans' medical staff had to say on Green, but Caserio should have over ridden everybody and said no to Green's selection.

 

[Porky]

I agree that you cannot plan for every single eventuality. If you lose your top three tackles in the course of 3 weeks in November - there is no rational plan to overcome that. You go to your emergency kit and do the best you can to hold it together.

That is far, far different from knowing by May that Green was damaged goods. That’s Nick’s own words, not mine. And as CND has pointed out, Greens injury history was well known in league circles. Somehow Nick was apparently the only one who didn’t know. Given the injury history, I wouldn’t have touched him until the 4th round. At that point, a guy with good upside…worth a risk there. At 15? That’s sheer unforgivable lunacy.

Texian is likely right. It was probably Warhop. That said, it’s just that - speculation. I’ve seen nothing to back up that speculation. Regardless, it’s on Nicks scorecard. He is busily wasting 5e Watson bounty instead of investing it smartly.

One pick traded, one used on Green. Both amount to zero.

Y’all think Nick is doing a good job and you want to find excuses, be my guest. There’s a few things I’ve liked yes…so it’s not a grade F. But right now he sits at a D+ in my book. We can do way way better. Let Ryans have his guy just like Kubiak brought in RS. DeMeco needs a guy that totally aligns with him. Let Nick finish out the season, and then jettison him back to NE.

 

[JB]

DeMeco needs a guy that totally aligns with him. Let Nick finish out the season, and then jettison him back to NE.

And if DeMeco wants Caserio?

 

[Texian]

I agree that you cannot plan for every single eventuality. If you lose your top three tackles in the course of 3 weeks in November - there is no rational plan to overcome that. You go to your emergency kit and do the best you can to hold it together.

That is far, far different from knowing by May that Green was damaged goods. That’s Nick’s own words, not mine. And as CND has pointed out, Greens injury history was well known in league circles. Somehow Nick was apparently the only one who didn’t know. Given the injury history, I wouldn’t have touched him until the 4th round. At that point, a guy with good upside…worth a risk there. At 15? That’s sheer unforgivable lunacy.

Texian is likely right. It was probably Warhop. That said, it’s just that - speculation. I’ve seen nothing to back up that speculation. Regardless, it’s on Nicks scorecard. He is busily wasting 5e Watson bounty instead of investing it smartly.

One pick traded, one used on Green. Both amount to zero.

Y’all think Nick is doing a good job and you want to find excuses, be my guest. There’s a few things I’ve liked yes…so it’s not a grade F. But right now he sits at a D+ in my book. We can do way way better. Let Ryans have his guy just like Kubiak brought in RS. DeMeco needs a guy that totally aligns with him. Let Nick finish out the season, and then jettison him back to NE.

You have to ask how Green ended up as the 15th pick? Who are the people who could make this happen? Lovie and Warhop were both at TAM pro day. Warhop did several interviews, one explaining how OL 34" arms were very important to him. Green has 34" arms. Warhop's interview after drafting Green sounded like Green was his guy all along.

 

[beerlover]

Did anyone know Zach Martin was "generational"? Tennessee took Skoronski as an OG and I thought that was an outstanding selection. It's not a good idea to draft an OG in the 1st tound if it doesn't work out. If it does work out, "Well of course you take that OG in the 1st. He's generational."

Always exceptions, for every Zach Martin there are 10 Nick Martins. Bust rates for OG are not as safe as one may think (21.9%). If safety was primarily concern along with need, trading down instead of taking BPA for Center Tyler Linderbaum should have been the pick. Lower bust rate for position (8.3%) and he was widely regarded as best Center prospect to come out in years. Takes a year to season one (he had injuries himself) but in his second upcoming season is looking like a Pro Bowl Center. We will see him on display opening weekend in Baltimore and can only wish he had been Caserios master plan pick.

 

[steelbtexan]

I agree that you cannot plan for every single eventuality. If you lose your top three tackles in the course of 3 weeks in November - there is no rational plan to overcome that. You go to your emergency kit and do the best you can to hold it together.

That is far, far different from knowing by May that Green was damaged goods. That’s Nick’s own words, not mine. And as CND has pointed out, Greens injury history was well known in league circles. Somehow Nick was apparently the only one who didn’t know. Given the injury history, I wouldn’t have touched him until the 4th round. At that point, a guy with good upside…worth a risk there. At 15? That’s sheer unforgivable lunacy.

Texian is likely right. It was probably Warhop. That said, it’s just that - speculation. I’ve seen nothing to back up that speculation. Regardless, it’s on Nicks scorecard. He is busily wasting 5e Watson bounty instead of investing it smartly.

One pick traded, one used on Green. Both amount to zero.

Y’all think Nick is doing a good job and you want to find excuses, be my guest. There’s a few things I’ve liked yes…so it’s not a grade F. But right now he sits at a D+ in my book. We can do way way better. Let Ryans have his guy just like Kubiak brought in RS. DeMeco needs a guy that totally aligns with him. Let Nick finish out the season, and then jettison him back to NE.

What did RS and Kubiak win?

Caserio and Ryans worked well together in their 1st off-season together and you want to blow it up.

 

[beerlover]

Yes, I agree that the buck stops with Caserio. But with the coaching carousel of 2021 and 2022, and not knowing what went on internally with the Texans, I going to think that the decision to draft Green lies primarily with Lovie Smith and George Warhop. Of course these two are no longer here and we need a scapegoat to blame, so that has to be Caserio. We also have no idea of what exactly the Texans' medical staff had to say on Green, but Caserio should have over ridden everybody and said no to Green's selection.

Here is the bottom line. Without competent support and leadership from football operations, Nick Caserio cannot evaluate NFL talent on his own. You can’t keep handing off because you have no ******* clue.

 

[Lucky]

Always exceptions, for every Zach Martin there are 10 Nick Martins. Bust rates for OG are not as safe as one may think (21.9%). If safety was primarily concern along with need, trading down instead of taking BPA for Center Tyler Linderbaum should have been the pick. Lower bust rate for position (8.3%) and he was widely regarded as best Center prospect to come out in years. Takes a year to season one (he had injuries himself) but in his second upcoming season is looking like a Pro Bowl Center. We will see him on display opening weekend in Baltimore and can only wish he had been Caserios master plan pick.

Care to share where this bust rate % was derived?

 

[JB]

but in his second upcoming season is looking like a Pro Bowl Center.

How can you say this for a season that hasn't even started? What if he gets injured again?

 

[beerlover]

How can you say this for a season that hasn't even started? What if he gets injured again?

film study & medicals with mindset to always get stronger and better.
https://www.youtube.com/live/GOmCU-t0gBs?si=Psq-9YO1zI2Kqo3O

 

[JB]

film study & medicals with mindset to always get stronger and better.
https://www.youtube.com/live/GOmCU-t0gBs?si=Psq-9YO1zI2Kqo3O

In other words speculation because you like the guy

 

[Texian]

I agree that you cannot plan for every single eventuality. If you lose your top three tackles in the course of 3 weeks in November - there is no rational plan to overcome that. You go to your emergency kit and do the best you can to hold it together.

That is far, far different from knowing by May that Green was damaged goods. That’s Nick’s own words, not mine. And as CND has pointed out, Greens injury history was well known in league circles. Somehow Nick was apparently the only one who didn’t know. Given the injury history, I wouldn’t have touched him until the 4th round. At that point, a guy with good upside…worth a risk there. At 15? That’s sheer unforgivable lunacy.

Texian is likely right. It was probably Warhop. That said, it’s just that - speculation. I’ve seen nothing to back up that speculation. Regardless, it’s on Nicks scorecard. He is busily wasting 5e Watson bounty instead of investing it smartly.

One pick traded, one used on Green. Both amount to zero.

Y’all think Nick is doing a good job and you want to find excuses, be my guest. There’s a few things I’ve liked yes…so it’s not a grade F. But right now he sits at a D+ in my book. We can do way way better. Let Ryans have his guy just like Kubiak brought in RS. DeMeco needs a guy that totally aligns with him. Let Nick finish out the season, and then jettison him back to NE.

The fact that Ryans did not come in and clean house and instead chose to go with Cal and Hannah's choice of go-along-to get-along Caserio, says to me, that Ryans may not be the head coach everyone thinks he is or wants him to be. For example, Jimmy Johnson came in and fired Gil Brandt straight away.

Cal cannot see past the end of his nose on his face and is incapable of understanding how to construct a winning football team. When Sean Payton indicated that the Texans were totally dysfunctional, much of that was derived from the guy sitting next to Cal on the Zoom call.

 

[beerlover]

Care to share where this bust rate % was derived?

https://syndication.bleacherreport....riskiest-at-the-top-of-the-nfl-draft.amp.html

 

[The Pencil Neck]

The fact that Ryans did not come in and clean house and instead chose to go with Cal and Hannah's choice of go-along-to get-along Caserio, says to me, that Ryans may not be the head coach everyone thinks he is or wants him to be.

MAY NOT be.

Jury's still out.

 

[Lucky]

https://syndication.bleacherreport....riskiest-at-the-top-of-the-nfl-draft.amp.html

The data is rather outdated as the article was written in 2015. But it's worth your time to read it again. As their numbers indicate the opposite of your claim that "it’s generally not wise to draft an OG in the first round". Here are some quotes.

Standing out here are linebackers, safeties and offensive linemen in general, but particularly interior o-linemen.

So if you're looking for a star in the first round, precedents from the last quarter-century indicate you're better off going with a safety, linebacker, tight end or interior offensive lineman than a defensive lineman or a wide receiver.

So it seems as though if you're really confident in a first-round safety, tight end, interior offensive lineman or linebacker, there's a very good chance that the pick will pan out.

The above sample size includes the entirety of the 1990s and nearly half of the 1980s. The game has changed quite a bit over the years, so let's perform the exact same study, while only looking at the first 10 drafts of the 21st century, ending in 2010.

Once again, interior offensive linemen, safeties and linebackers appear to be the hottest players

When it comes to busts, we're dealing with the same four positions above the 30 percent mark as above in the 25-year sample. Backs and receivers are volatile, while the defensive line position continues to produce a lot of busts. Extreme examples in this case include Aaron Maybin, Jarvis Moss, Vernon Gholston and Derrick Harvey.

On the other end of the spectrum, of the 47 interior offensive linemen drafted in the first round during this 10-year period, only two—Jason Smith and Jeff Otah—qualify as busts based on our criteria.

Oh, and tight ends, linebackers and safeties again appear to be safe first-round picks.

I believe the past 10 years would reflect more accurate data. The passing game has continued to become more of the focus, and OGs have diminished in value along with the run game. But you presented this 2015 data, which pretty clearly showed that interior offensive linemen were among the safest 1st round picks a team can make at that time. Not the case you were attempting to make.

 

[powda]

Always exceptions, for every Zach Martin there are 10 Nick Martins. Bust rates for OG are not as safe as one may think (21.9%). If safety was primarily concern along with need, trading down instead of taking BPA for Center Tyler Linderbaum should have been the pick. Lower bust rate for position (8.3%) and he was widely regarded as best Center prospect to come out in years. Takes a year to season one (he had injuries himself) but in his second upcoming season is looking like a Pro Bowl Center. We will see him on display opening weekend in Baltimore and can only wish he had been Caserios master plan pick.

So, if you liked Linderbaum more then Green, I get it. You liked his skill set, mentality, tape more, yadda yadda yadda. But if you're arguing for a center simply because of bust rate, that's just ludicrous.

First and foremost, lots of linemen have played both positions in the pros and college. How do you decide who is and isn't a center/guard? Is this based on the draft card designation?

Are you seeing how easily your percentages can be skewed?

I think your link showed a bust rate of 40.4% for quarterbacks? By your rational, no team should ever draft a qb in the first. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your argument, but I'm not buying into it. Please clarify if you need to.

Thanks. I'll hang up and listen.