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Offensive Line Biggest Issue

B

BWPaint

Practice Squad
With the season winding down, and much talk about Carr and Double D, and how each has progressed this year, we AND the coaches have to look at the real variable that leads to their progression, or lack of...forget everything else, when all is said and done, it boils down to ...... Offensive line

I remember the days of of the Oliers...once drafted, Munchak, Matthews, and Stein..(what's his name?), changed the team.....IT ALL STARTS and ENDS in the TRENCHES.

RT - Wade - large man, slow, average at best, beat every 4th play on passes, decent on the run, can live with him for 2 more years
RG - Weigert - proto-type build, good on runs, injury prone, vulnerable to stunts, average-to-above
C - McKinney - good signing 2 years ago, (love ya man), can not zone block, needs help from Pitts on pass blocks, sorry dude, but you got to go - 2nd to 3rd stringer on every other team
LG - Pitts - slow, must hit weight room, fair on run blocks if he does not have to change directions, gets beat often on pass during stunts, needs more time to develop...average at best, we better address this position after center
LT - Wand - thrown into the job, great size, admiral job against DFenney(especially after seeing Ogden's performance)...but the guy is a rookie basically, gets beat often against quicker right ends...this position is too important to wait on his development..address in free agency if possible

Overall, we can live with the right side of the ball if Weigert can stay healthy....but boys, from the center over to the left...HAS TO BE ADDRESSED in free Agency or draft others that can come in (which would be asking for a miracle).

We all understand that Offensive line development takes time, AND THIS IS MY POINT, if we do not suck it up and address this need in the draft(I know you all want high profile players, but....), we will be in deep do-do for 4 more years. THIS IS THE NUMBER ONE FREE AGENCY AND DRAFT PRIORITY, and must be addressed.

IF you can get Mike Williams in the first round...go baby go, but after that, we better address the OLine.

Would like your thoughts...Merry Christmas to everyone. And you guys stay on the right side of the road on New Years Eve, we want you at the game on Sunday. SUNDAY, SUNDAY, SUNDAY!
 
we paid 35 million to a big slow average at best white guy?

FIRE CASSERLY

get real man...he made Duece McAllister a star at Ole Miss and made Ricky
Williams a star in Miami (look at the stats when they run to the right)
 
texansfan88 said:
we paid 35 million to a big slow average at best white guy?

FIRE CASSERLY

get real man...he made Duece McAllister a star at Ole Miss and made Ricky
Williams a star in Miami (look at the stats when they run to the right)
Click to expand...

You barkin' about, Wade?...
I am just giving my opinion and after watching video....and plus if you look at my post, he is one of the better ones on the run....but like I said, just my opinion.....what do I know...

Actually I was addressing their needs for 2005, but we can start a new thread about individual OL if you like.

....oh, and by the way...he is white...he is BIG...and he is slow
 
texansfan88 said:
we paid 35 million to a big slow average at best white guy?

FIRE CASSERLY

get real man...he made Duece McAllister a star at Ole Miss and made Ricky
Williams a star in Miami (look at the stats when they run to the right)
Click to expand...

Wade is going to be fine at RT for years to come. He is exactly what the Texans wanted a road grader type run-blocker that is adequate in pass protection. He has given up 4.5 sacks this year (while adjusting to a new team and scheme), basically the same he gave up each year in Miami. That said, the splits aren't in his (and Weigert's) favor on the running game this year:

Running to the right--2.8 ypc
Running to the left--4.2 ypc
Running up the middle--4.5 ypc

Maybe Pitts who "isn't ever going to get better" is better than you think.
 
dont forget pitts moving to guard after being our left tackle the first 2 years. even he said its different because you arent out in space and everything is inside.

anyone notice the runs to the left on a toss? usually they are pulling someone and getting a good block by the TE. i dont see how the left side of our line is a big weakness. if at all it WILL become our strength.

and 10 million dollar signing bonus is a big commitment to an average right tackle....what was the front office smoking right?
 
infantrycak said:
Wade is going to be fine at RT for years to come. That said, the splits aren't in his favor this year:

Running to the right--2.8 ypc
Running to the left--4.2 ypc
Running up the middle--4.5 ypc

Maybe Pitts who "isn't ever going to get better" is better than you think.
Click to expand...

Thank you.. and you can see it on film also....but some of this may be because of the new system....but for a guy 5 years or so in the league...it should not be a problem....yes we over paid him....but that is part of a new franchise and older franchises...
 
ccdude730 said:
dont forget pitts moving to guard after being our left tackle the first 2 years. even he said its different because you arent out in space and everything is inside.

anyone notice the runs to the left on a toss? usually they are pulling someone and getting a good block by the TE. i dont see how the left side of our line is a big weakness. if at all it WILL become our strength.

and 10 million dollar signing bonus is a big commitment to an average right tackle....what was the front office smoking right?
Click to expand...

I agree whole heartly...and I hope it becomes the heart and soul of the line..because without it...we will have problems...and there are definate improvements this year...but if you look at the tape, some of the spots on the line are in need of great repair...

...do not get me wrong...I love this team...I want them to improve....that is the reason for the post (plus I like to fluff a few feathers).
 
Steinkuhler is the name you are looking for. My look at the line is different than yours.

RT - Wade - Solid NFL Right Tackle.
RG - Weigert - a little bit stiff, but the best second level blocker on the team. Getting old and can still play but gets injured alot. Milford Brown is the future here.
C - McKinney - understands the game. Plays well at times. I'd like to see us upgrade here.
LG - Pitts - powerful, quick player prone to make mental mistakes. Dominating at times. Will continue to get better. No need to upgrade.
LT - Wand - If the right prospect is there in round one I can see us drafting a pick in the first round (only a couple of guys however). Otherwise I would expect to see Wand back as the starter. I would guess we take a Tackle somewhere in any case. We need the depth.
TE - Millerbreuner - We need Joppru to play. Fingers crossed. We probably need to address the TE on the first day or sign one in FA in any case.
 
Vinny said:
RT - Wade - Solid NFL Right Tackle.
LG - Pitts - powerful, quick player prone to make mental mistakes. Dominating at times. Will continue to get better.
TE - Millerbreuner - We need Joppru to play. Fingers crossed. We probably need to address the TE on the first day or sign one in FA in any case.
Click to expand...

Wade - hmmm...can live with him, but man he really gets beat on pass and stunts...
Pitts - want to see the video you are watching....bright guy and love the guys, hope he develops, but I got 15 plays where he is did not perform well, last Sunday.
Agree on TE

Thanks Vinny, good to see your abound...(it's so easy for us to be Monday Morning Quarterbacks, huh?)
 
BWPaint said:
Wade - hmmm...can live with him, but man he really gets beat on pass and stunts...
Click to expand...
Hate to tell you, but everyone has been getting beat on pass and stunts this year... idonno:
 
BWPaint said:
Pitts - want to see the video you are watching....bright guy and love the guys, hope he develops, but I got 15 plays where he is did not perform well, last Sunday.

Thanks Vinny, good to see your abound...(it's so easy for us to be Monday Morning Quarterbacks, huh?)
Click to expand...
I've seen every snap of every game. It's just an opinion that I have formed. Mental mistakes include footwork issues and slow reads. He has great balance. He never played the game before College. He is still on a growth curve. If you look hard enough you will see him physically dominating at times.
 
Vinny said:
I've seen every snap of every game. It's just an opinion that I have formed. Mental mistakes include footwork issues and slow reads. He has great balance. He never played the game before College. He is still on a growth curve. If you look hard enough you will see him physically dominating at times.
Click to expand...

Yep, the story of Pitts is a good one. And this is one of the reasons McNair is a great owner. Pitts is well spoken, a man of integrity, and I hope we get to see him develop over the next 10 years, It is players like him that keep the NFL from looking and becoming like the NBA.
 
texansfan88 said:
BWPaint has probably been fooling around with the paint too much when he posted this
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Stop it, you are killing me! I am laughing so hard I just busted my glue tube...
NO sniffing here my friend, just my opinion .... SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY
 
Bottomline is we don't have one single dominant lineman on the line. There's no one who just scares you or takes the bull by the horns and gets the other four going. Part of it is Carr. They play better when he lights a fire under there *****, he needs to do that every time they start slack'n. We could draft a gaurd/center/ or tackle in the 1st or 2nd round or both and they could unseat anyone on our line. Wade/Weigert don't bother me as much as the others.
 
Off the top of your head I bet you can't name the "dominant" lineman on the Patriots. I have typed this a few times but we only had two players play at the same position they were in last season. McKinney and Weigert. Everyone else (Wand, Pitts, Wade, Bruenner) was either new to the team or learning a new position. The line has gotten better as the season has unfolded and there is no reason to think this mix of guys isn't going to work if you are objective and follow other NFL teams and how their linemen mature as units.
 
All the Pats lineman are above average and given Brady a pocket about every play and Dillon has run for almost 1,500. Takes a dominant unit to be good. I guess that's what we need, not just one dominant player, hopefully this offseason our unit will come together and w/ a year of experience together. I still think we need some o-line help though in rounds 1/2 and at center. Two players of the top of my head on the pats o-line is Neil/ashworth
 
The question wasn't literal really. I know google is around the corner.

Let me get this straight. You have a massive thread telling us it takes Carr 4 years to develop and to have patience but the linemen should be replaced under a different timetable? Too bad none of them are from Fresno St. Pitts and Wand are playing up to their draft position. I could argue Carr isn't.
 
Vinny said:
Off the top of your head I bet you can't name the "dominant" lineman on the Patriots.
Click to expand...

You are probably correct... not sure I can name the DOMINANT Patroit, but the first name that comes to mind is Joe Andruzzi (sp?), but you may be wanting Ashworth, I think is their tackle...Nimmo (SP) is smaller but I do not think he is the one you are looking for....my guess is the old man (Probably 30 yrs. old) Andruzzi.
 
Vinny said:
The question wasn't literal really. I know google is around the corner.

Let me get this straight. You have a massive thread telling us it takes Carr 4 years to develop and to have patience but the linemen should be replaced under a different timetable. Pitts and Wand are playing up to their draft position. I could argue Carr isn't.
Click to expand...

No No No Vinny,
my point for starting this thread was to discuss the upcoming needs. I am one that believes that we need time to develop. That is why I worded the original post as I did.

It is clear and IT is apparent that the OLine is not what it could be.

Is it your suggestion that we wait and see if the OLine develops?

I will say this...I think this organization has screwed up in the past drafts not addressing the need of young linemen on both sides the ball....IT ALL STARTS IN THE TRENCHES..

but with that said...starting a new team...you need EVERYTHING...you need to sell tickets too...so there is the tendency to draft those high profile names..

...but I can guarantee you one thing, with out LINES you have nothing but a disaster waiting to happen.....

...SEE CLEVELAND
 
I was telling the Fresno guy to be fair to all the players and to use the same logic. Everything isn't the line's fault or the Coaches fault when discussing Carr's shortcomings. If we are going to be patient with Carr we need to be patient with our line. They are both positions that take a bit of time to develop. My thoughts on the line were in post number 8. Our line is nothing like the disaster in Cleveland.
 
Vinny said:
I was telling the Fresno guy to be fair to all the players and to use the same logic. Everything isn't the line's fault or the Coaches fault when discussing Carr's shortcomings. If we are going to be patient with Carr we need to be patient with our line. They are both positions that take a bit of time to develop. My thoughts on the line were in post number 8. Our line is nothing like the disaster in Cleveland.
Click to expand...

So how long do you give them to develop, before you start to replensish the tank?
 
BWPaint said:
I will say this...I think this organization has screwed up in the past drafts not addressing the need of young linemen on both sides the ball....IT ALL STARTS IN THE TRENCHES.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we could have taken Bryant McKinney and Jordan Gross, but Carr is with another team and so is Andre Johnson if you take "stud" linemen early. Everyone want's a complete team overnight and the truth is it takes a few years to build an expansion team.
 
Vinny said:
Yeah, we could have taken Bryant McKinney and Jordan Gross, but Carr is with another team and so is Andre Johnson if you take "stud" linemen early. Everyone want's a complete team overnight and the truth is it takes a few years to build an expansion team.
Click to expand...

yep see my quote above...it takes time...

I agree...I have no compaints...and the Texans will get my 3K for my 2 seats again next year and the year after...

...but again my point is that without a strong line, a serious run to the SB is hard to accomplish...

correct?
 
My answer was in post # 20.
The question wasn't literal really. I know google is around the corner.
Click to expand...
I guess my point was you don't need a bunch of guys named Munchak, Matthews or Steinkuhler as you were longing for from the Oiler days. For every first round lineman you take you set aside a guy named Carr or AJ as the alternative. Dominant linemen don't grow on trees. It takes time to develop most players. You don't see a lot of top-10 type picks on the Pats line. You see a lot of guys who got better as they developed.

Here are all the first day Tackles in the 2003 NFL Draft...

First round
Jordan Gross Panthers - Gross was a top ten pick and struggles at Left Tackle. I believe they are moving him to RT full time next year.
George Foster Broncos Georgia - Mr Ankle-breaker. Solid young player, rarely if ever on the active roster his first year. Only has a handfull of career starts.
Kwame Harris 49ers Stanford - Plays behind someone named Kyle Kosier

Second round
Jonathan Stinchcomb Saints - Georgia - Don't know much about his development but plays behind Wayne Gandy. Gandy is still a solid NFL Tackle.

Third round
Wayne Hunter Seahawks - Plays behind Chris Terry AND Floyd Womack
Seth Wand Texans Northwest Missouri State - Starts, but with a young developing team.
Wade Smith Dolphins - Solid player. A Chester Pitts clone @ LT. Backs up Damion McIntosh
 
Vinny said:
I guess my point was you don't need a bunch of guys named Munchak, Matthews or Steinkuhler as you were longing for from the Oiler days.
Click to expand...

And I guess my point was that when you have a line you have so many more options and successes.

I do not doubt our line will become good, but I think that it can become better. It WILL take time, no doubt....but for us to sit still makes no sense to me...and I hope they work out...

... an NFL team has a continual process of players migrating through its organization.....and the OLine, is the stability of a team...err Pittsburg year after year....they draft Oline men..

Again, my point is that we have to get Oline men...this bunch is OK, but it can be better....

...even Carr validated my concern with his outburst on the side line...

without the upgrade we WILL CONTINTUE TO DEBATE ABOUT CARR AND DAVIS.... which is unfair to both...because if David had 50 more plays a year to throw and Double D had 50 more openings to run through...

...BABY WE WOULD BE THERE!


...ps...thanks for that post on the OL guys drafted....I remember Gross coming out that draft, kind of a thin OL draft, but many thought he was all World.....interesting and it validates my point...you never know and you better keep drafting those big slabs of meat....it is one hell of tough position!

PPS...your good VINNY!
 
I know it wasn't literal if I wanted to look smart I would have googled and found all five lineman and looked like a genious, I just know 2 off the top of my head and know they have a good o-line unit. And it looks to me like Carr has developed pretty well considering the circumstances and when he's given time. So maybe our line should get its act together. It doesn't take a genious to figure out we got problems on the line. However I said hopefully the line will get it together for next year and anyone was replaceable, I didn't say they all needed to go.
 
Vinny said:
You don't see a lot of top-10 type picks on the Pats line. You see a lot of guys who got better as they developed.
Click to expand...

There are several OL's around the league better than the Patriots' but since it has been the topic of comparison (from YahooNFL by the way, not Google):

LT--Matt Light, 2nd round
LG--Joe Andruzzi, undrafted
C--Daniel Koppen, 5th round
RG--Stephen NEal, undrafted
RT--Brandin Gorin, 7th round
 
Vinny said:
Off the top of your head I bet you can't name the "dominant" lineman on the Patriots. I have typed this a few times but we only had two players play at the same position they were in last season. McKinney and Weigert. Everyone else (Wand, Pitts, Wade, Bruenner) was either new to the team or learning a new position. The line has gotten better as the season has unfolded and there is no reason to think this mix of guys isn't going to work if you are objective and follow other NFL teams and how their linemen mature as units.
Click to expand...


I've got to agree with you on this Vinny. The line has gotten better. I expected/wanted to see improvement about three weeks or so before it actually started to show up consistently and I wrote that big ol post about not seeing any at the time. It has started to appear regularly though and that's not just in response to the latest couple of wins. That's in response to three weeks of watching the Texans o-line run block just flat out better.

I believe two things. I believe that once the zone blocking scheme is down pat, business as usual, and nobody is having to do much thinking about it then the pass protection will improve as well. I know it doesn't make much sense but that's what I think.

I also believe that before it's all done Chester Pitts will be a Pro Bowl guard. I don't know if Seth Wand will be joining him but Wand is going to be a very good LT for years to come. It's time that they both need, that's all.

I wonder where Seth is right now on sacks allowed and such compared to Pitts in his first and second years? I'm sure once the season wraps up someone will have that info.
 
Hervoyel said:
I wonder where Seth is right now on sacks allowed and such compared to Pitts in his first and second years? I'm sure once the season wraps up someone will have that info.
Click to expand...

Chester Pitts
2002 15.5 sacks allowed, 9 penalties including 3 false starts and 5 holds
2003 5.75 sacks allowed, 17 penalties including 8 false starts and 7 holds

2004 4 sacks allowed, 12 penalties including 7 false starts and 3 holds

Seth Wand
2004 11.50 sacks allowed, 3 penalties--1 false start and 2 holds
 
The Texans have made changes to their line each year. Good/great units take time to work together and form. They need to learn the system and have a chance to know the players on their left and right. KC had the same great line for 2 straight years before letting Tait go this past year. That is one of the best lines in football. They have more dominant players than the Texans, but it's the unit that makes it so good. The Patriots haven't changed their line either. If Barron from Free Shoes U or Brown from OU are available I say take them because you can't pass up on good linemen, but keep the line the same and let them learn. They've shown flashes of being very good.
 
infantrycak said:
Chester Pitts
2002 15.5 sacks allowed, 9 penalties including 3 false starts and 5 holds
2003 5.75 sacks allowed, 17 penalties including 8 false starts and 7 holds

2004 4 sacks allowed, 12 penalties including 7 false starts and 3 holds

Seth Wand
2004 11.50 sacks allowed, 3 penalties--1 false start and 2 holds
Click to expand...


So, looks like Seth is about in the middle between Chesters 1st year and his 2nd. That's about where I would have expected him to be after sitting a year and it looks like he makes fewer mistakes. All in all, not bad. Next year should show a marked improvement as most players make the biggest improvement in their second year of PLAYING. At this point in our development, IMO, LT is fairly far down the list of "Upgrade needed" positions. Now McKinny on the other hand............?
 
I have to take exception to the premise that the O-line has improved over the latter part of the season. The Texans have allowed over 3.2 sacks/game in December, compared to 2.7 in the previous games. Davis rushed for 150 yards in the last game, but half of his 30 attempts went for 1 yard or less. That's not an indication of a consistent line.

What has been consistent about the Texans offense is the inability to put TDs on the board. The offense has scored more than 2 TDs in a game only twice this season. Both occasions in hurry up offenses when down by 3 scores. Lately, the book on the Texans is to tackle the RB on the way to the QB. Davis has had some big games, but teams aren't afraid of him. They are afraid of Carr & AJ. If the Texan O-line can't protect Carr, this offense will never work.

The idea that the line will automatically improve if just left alone is based on some faulty logic. One, the reason the Chiefs & Broncos line has remained together is because they are good. If they weren't getting results, those teams would fix the problems. Two, I understand the logic that Wand & Pitts could turn the corner with another year under their belt. But that just doesn't hold for McKinney (7 year vet) & Wiegert (10 year vet). They've regressed and there isn’t any sound rationale that they'll turn it around next season. Bringing them back and expecting improved results doesn't make sense.
 
The line played well against Jacksonville and to say otherwise is absurd. We dominated the clock with nearly 40 mins time of possession, and had 211 yards rushing. You don't do that with poor line play against Henderson and Stroud. I think most of our TD problems rest in the fact that David Carr isn't very good in the red zone and we have no TE that doesn't tip the play. Most solid red zone teams have versatile TE's. We have one guy who can't block and one guy who can't catch. I think for his career Carr only has one game with more than 2 TD's in three years.
 
The O-line did a good job run blocking against JAX, but they also gave up four sacks. I cringe every time we go into the shotgun on third and short because I know what's coming. SACK. :slap:
 
Vinny said:
The line played well against Jacksonville and to say otherwise is absurd. We dominated the clock with nearly 40 mins time of possession, and had 211 yards rushing. You don't do that with poor line play against Henderson and Stroud.
Click to expand...
Absurd? What game were you watching? The reason the Texans won the time of possession was due to the Jags converting 1 of 10 3rd downs and picking up only 6 1st downs the entire game. At what point in the game did you say to yourself, "I'm glad the mighty Texan O-line is controlling the game and keeping those dangerous Jags off the field?". The Texans had 106 yards of total offense on 34 plays in the 2nd half. And still held a 2:1 time of possession advantage in the 2nd half. Henderson & Stroud played well enough to hold the Texans offense to 14 points. With 13 tackles and 2.5 sacks between them, they were hardly dominated.

As I've posted in a different thread, Carr threw 7 2nd half passes, was sacked 3 times, and was chased from the backfield on 4 occasions. So, for every pass Carr threw, he was either hit or ran for his life. Not a real good ratio. But hey, it must be Carr's fault, right? Nice work getting that in. BTW, the Texans were 2 for 3 (66%) in red zone TDs on Sunday. Carr was 2 for 2 with a TD pass. The problem right now isn't converting red zone opportunities, it's getting red zone opportunities in the first place. And the O-line's poor pass protection on 3rd downs, as well as penalties, are killing the Texans ability to make long drives. Look at their stats, look at their play. This is a poor O-line and they aren't getting any better.
 
Too bad we didn't roll up 300 yards rushing. That may have impressed you perhaps. We move the ball well (check the stats), but we have trouble scoring. I get your points....but we don't see eye to eye on this one. I'll leave it at that.
 
DD had 150 yds for a 5.0 avg. But two of those runs accounted for 82 yards. That means he averaged a whooping 2.4 YPC on his other 28 runs. Included in his total were two runs for negative yardage, 5 for no gain at all, and 8 that went for all of 1 yard. While I realze that the long ones count too, that doesn't exactly paint a picture of a consistent or dominant run blocking line.

Care to counter that assertion?
 
Vinny said:
Let me get this straight. You have a massive thread telling us it takes Carr 4 years to develop and to have patience but the linemen should be replaced under a different timetable? Too bad none of them are from Fresno St. Pitts and Wand are playing up to their draft position. I could argue Carr isn't.

Maybe Carr would have progressed a little better if he's not lying flat on his back or running for his life. Yeah Pitts and Wand are playing up to their draft position, so what, is that good enough. I didn't say bring in 5 new guys next year. But we do have problems here it'something that needs to be addressed. McKinney and Weigert are getting old and our pass protection sucks, we should be okay with that right. They have had a year now and hopefully they improve next year. Oh and Pitts and McKinney have been w. us from the start and Wand 2 years it's not like they're all rookies playing togther for the first time and Wiegert and Wade are veterans that have been brought in to help.
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Wade's high ankle injury and rushing back to quickly hurt his performance. He gave up half of his sacks (2) in the first half at Denver and then had to be taken out due to pain and not being able to walk. Give the man some credit.
 
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