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Kiper's Big Board
- Thread starter Spled
- Start date
WesmanTexanfan
SeNior Smack
he is a nice return man, he pretty much beat Texas by himself.......(with good blocking of course) and hes a playmaking cb, alot of drafts have us picking him up...... im not agreeing with mel, just thrown yall some perspective.....
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Both of these guys he has overrated IMO. Maybe Clady should be up there at like 10-15 but Talib shouldn't be Top 10.
YoungTexanFan
All Pro
Talib is the best CB in the draft. He has the size every team salivates over. He has produced the last two years. He was is multi-dimensional. He has good speed, great hands, loose hips and I would trust him to make every tackle on the LOS more than Daunta. He is aggressive and uses his longer arms to break the pass up effectivly.
Specnatz
Hall of Fame
Good speed only, last I checked he only runs a 4.5 so unless he has initial burst without the overrall speed he is not what I would say is 1st round material. I would put him in the second round though.
painekiller
All Pro
Beat me to it. He is a solid player, but Faggins showed why you need to have better than good speed to play CB. Now can he play Safety?
BTW I have been touting the guy all season on another board. So I am not trying to kill the guy. He just does not have elite speed, and 1st rounder usually have elite speed, not good speed. And I agree he has everything else you look for in a CB. I see him being a good fit for a cover 2 team.
I used to think that Kiper and the rest of his ESPN buddies were unbelievably
biased in favor of Reggie Bush. But now I'm starting to think its an institutional bias of all USC players more than anything, because for him to rank USCs Baker ahead of other OTs Williams & especially Otah is downright goofey. I dunno, is the guy trying to undermine his own credibility ? Several are already dropping Baker completely out of the first round while the other 2 OTs are going no where but up the rankings.
biased in favor of Reggie Bush. But now I'm starting to think its an institutional bias of all USC players more than anything, because for him to rank USCs Baker ahead of other OTs Williams & especially Otah is downright goofey. I dunno, is the guy trying to undermine his own credibility ? Several are already dropping Baker completely out of the first round while the other 2 OTs are going no where but up the rankings.
YoungTexanFan
All Pro
Then you haven't watched any of his game tape and shouldn't be giving a others on this board such non-sense. Talib would be great in the cover two or in a bump-n-run. He's big enough to play on the line, and can stay with recievers to make the play on the ball.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
I want to know how Chris Long drops..for what reason Mel?
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
4.5 speed is good enough to be an elite CB. It's the on-field speed and quickness that matter. Often, the difference between a 4.3 guy and a 4.5 guy is simply track experience. If a CB throws up a 4.65, then I'd be concerned. However, if he looks fast and fluid on film and runs a 4.48, I'd be all over him.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Without commenting on the USC bias at all, because I have no idea, it depends on your view of Baker, IMO. Baker is the most polished left tackle in the draft, and should be rated even higher, but for a leg injury this year. He made it through his junior year with no significant injuries, but this year, it was a hamstring (I think?) that slowed him some. From a skill set perspective, I like him better than anyone. If the injury causes him to fall out of the first round, he'll be a huge steal, a la Winston for us, except better. JMO.
Baker isn't
a 1st round talent he is a 2nd round talent just like his old team meate Winston Justice who was rated as a 1st round talent and was drafted in the 2nd round by Philadelphia and he hasn't made it into the starting lineup yet.
There aren't a lot of speed demons at WR in the AFC South. But, there are some physical receivers, and Talib would be a good matchup with those guys. Plus, he's a corner that can make plays on the ball. Talib is someone the Texans would have to look at where they're sitting in the draft.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
So here's a very important question concerning what CB's would fit our team.
What kind of CB are we really looking to get? What exactly are our defense/secondary schemes? Do we want a CB that is great in man-to-man coverage, bump and run, "bend but don't break", cover-2, etc????
Additionally, I'm one to believe that 4.5 speed isn't a problem. Like mentioned earlier, it's really about a players burst and quickness (not to discount the 40-time at all though). How quick are his instincts, how quick is he changing direction, how fluid are his hips? Fred Bennett was timed at the combine running 4.46, 4.49, 4.53. Now you can argue, well he went in the 4th round...and that's valid but this season I never really saw Fred getting beat badly and he was always making plays on the ball. It's more about the players game, being able to spot the ball, etc. than his straight-line speed.
So again I come back to which CB's would really fit our team? Kind of like looking at RB's and OL...3-4 vs 4-3 DE/LB's ...same applies for CB's. Now understood we're not going to have a shot at some but I think it's important for us to understand who would be a good fit. I'd really appreciate some help with that.
What kind of CB are we really looking to get? What exactly are our defense/secondary schemes? Do we want a CB that is great in man-to-man coverage, bump and run, "bend but don't break", cover-2, etc????
Additionally, I'm one to believe that 4.5 speed isn't a problem. Like mentioned earlier, it's really about a players burst and quickness (not to discount the 40-time at all though). How quick are his instincts, how quick is he changing direction, how fluid are his hips? Fred Bennett was timed at the combine running 4.46, 4.49, 4.53. Now you can argue, well he went in the 4th round...and that's valid but this season I never really saw Fred getting beat badly and he was always making plays on the ball. It's more about the players game, being able to spot the ball, etc. than his straight-line speed.
So again I come back to which CB's would really fit our team? Kind of like looking at RB's and OL...3-4 vs 4-3 DE/LB's ...same applies for CB's. Now understood we're not going to have a shot at some but I think it's important for us to understand who would be a good fit. I'd really appreciate some help with that.
I dunno if his performance is still hindered by a leg injury, but before this week I probably shared your opinion about Baker. But I'm watching him this week on NFLNet from Mobile and he does not favorable impress like the other
2 top OTs there for the Sen-Bowl, Cherilus from BU & Williams from Vandy.
The guy looks sorta soft and definitely doesn't have much of the kind of demeanor one wants in an OLinemnan. And another negative is he has the
dreaded disadvantage of relatively short-arms for an OT (< 33"). The analyst
at NFLNet suggest he may actually need to be moved inside to guard.
Maybe my inital impression was misleading, so I'll try to keep an open mind for
the rest of his practice sessions from Mobile ?
I do know he'd be a good fit in Gibbs ZB system/schemes, as they ran a lot of that at USC and he is athletic. I dunno, maybe he'd be the perfect bookend Online match to go with Winston, but so far I'm not seeing it ? Guess it all depends upon where he ends up on the April Draft-Board ? And whether or not Gibbs likes him ?
YoungTexanFan
All Pro
Talib is being over-rated IMO he isn't good in man to man coverage and clady is boderline top ten and there is no we get him.
What in the world are you talking about? Watch games before you go spew this stuff over the message boards like you know what you are talking about. Talib led the nation in pass preakups last year as a sophomore. This year, he was a pre-season all-american, and KU's only known threat in the secondary. He had a great season. I can think of only a few times when he was beat. Also, if you actually bothered to watch film of Talib this year or last, you would notice that KU played predominitly man coverage, and Talib was always matched up against the #1 WR from the opposing team, and almost always left on an island by himself. He matched up with Bowman alone this year and not only held him in check, but also put such a good, solid, clean hit on him that Bowman couldn't finish the game.
Specnatz
Hall of Fame
I called for some game tapes and they would not send me any. But yes I have watched Kansas twice this past year, but when you are watching a game live and trying to get all the info down it is not always possible. As far as giving non-sense, my opinion is as valid as anyone elses including yours. In fact I value my own more than anyone elses for that matter but thanks for being so condiscending I appreciate it.
If you are looking to draft a CB that is only for a cover two that means you are covering up weaknesses in his game, and therefore In My Humble Frekain Opinion that DB is not worth a first round pick.
YTF, I am not sure why you are coming off with this attitude today of being better than anyone else but seriously you need to check it the door because we all have opinions and just because they do not match yours does not mean it is worthless and that we are full of it.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I agree, Talib is a great corner. I wouldn't put him in 4.5, I'd put him in the 4.45-4.5 category, which is perfectly fine for a corner as long as they don't take alot of false steps. Talib, Cason, and Jenkins all are pretty well polished. They don't take alot of false steps and therefor do not have to have GREAT speed. None of these guys will run under 4.4 IMO but they will all be able to run with and cover NFL WRs. Corner isn't always about blazing speed, it's alot more about ball skills and understanding where you need to be on the field, or how deep to drop back in your zone on this particular play. All three of these guys do these things very well.
I remember the game against Oklahoma State and Talib played that game damn well. The hit he got on Bowman wasn't exactly a knockout though he tweaked Bowman's knee with a lower hit. Not dirty, but not exactly a helmet to helmet shot.
I'm not sure about him being the best corner in the draft but him Cason, and Jenkins are really close. You could probably justify any of these guys as the top corner.
I agree with eriadoc on Baker. He is so polished and experienced I think it makes him a better prospect than most of these other LTs.
bigbrewster2000
Veteran
Baker isn't
a 1st round talent he is a 2nd round talent just like his old team meate Winston Justice who was rated as a 1st round talent and was drafted in the 2nd round by Philadelphia and he hasn't made it into the starting lineup yet.
Everyone on this board needs to stop comparing these 2 guys just because they went to the same school.
And you are wrong about Justice not making it into he starting lineup, he did this year(but he didnt look very good).
WInston Justice had some character issues coming out of school and he came off pretty punkish in his team interviews at the combine. He had a bad attitude and thought his poop didnt stink. And most of the teams questioned his desire to play. That is why he dropped in the draft. It had nothing to do with his talent.
Give Baker a break here. I am not even a proponent of drafting the guy but some of you guys have really gone over board on this kid.
As far as Talib is concerned, if you can play then you can play. 3 hundredths of a second in the 40 is not going to keep anyone from drafting this kid in the 1st round.
SuperTexan
Practice Squad
Everyone has been on Talib's jock and Kiper is no different. I just know that if the rumors about him being slow are true, he ain't going in the top 10, 15 or even 20.
painekiller
All Pro
Admittedly I have not seen him play as much as you have, but I have seen him play, and I like him, I say as much in my post, but forty speed is forty speed.
I hope he runs a great forty then we can draft him, I am hearing his forty time is closer to 4.6 than 4.5, but time will tell.
austintexanite
Rookie
I've seen Talib play a couple of times, and I came away pretty impressed. He showed good instincts and was able to adjust his change of direction pretty quickly. I don't think we should draft a CB in the first round, but I do feel that we can draft Justin King in the 3rd if he is still there.
The1ApplePie
Hall of Fame
Talib woud be a perfect fit in NE's system. They use cover 2 corners, and none of their CBs are considered fast. I would be surpised if Asante was any faster than 4.5
YoungTexanFan
All Pro
I'm going to stand up for Talib to anyone. I'm not trying to act better than anyone, that isn't me, but I am going to be very firm with the issue of Talib. I have watched him every game for the last two seasons, and that is a very large reason of why I am so emphatic about it. Don't take it the wrong way, but I am going to be very frank and opinionated with Talib.
Specnatz
Hall of Fame
Being frank and having an opinion about someone is fine, but to tell people who disagree with you that they have no clue and have never watched tape or that they need to watch games before the spew stuff is not the right way to go about it. Mel Kiper and McKay whom both work for espin do not agree on every single player and just because we do not agree is not a reason to be hostile about it.
That is my point and why I went off like I did.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Come on, guys. We haven't even had the Super Bowl, yet.
Group hug.
http://www.cavesofice.org/~watson/Kumbaya.mp3
Specnatz
Hall of Fame
and a moron.
We need one of those too, so why not. Maybe Talib in the 1st and Flowers in the 3rd. Not a bad draft and a great improvement to our secondary.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Flowers won't be there in the third, IMO. Even if we had a pick in the middle second I wouldn't be so sure about getting him there.