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Houston Texans 2017 1st round pick, Deshaun Watson, QB, Clemson

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Accept it wasn't covered initially.

The RB had the defender beat easily with either option.

Initially the defender was leaning outside which gave the RB the middle route , he adjusted and the RB went outside - He still had separation.

Thing was , at the time of that separation , Watson was having to avoid the guy who beat Tunsil.
Do you disagree with the all he had to do was step up into the pocket?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I have to ask, what is your definition of an anticipatory throw? I’m not trying to be a smart ass but I’m not sure how you throw with anticipation to a receiver that “made the wrong route choice”. To me throwing with anticipation is more throwing the ball where the receive is going to be, for example I throw the ball to the outside before the wr makes a break on an out route.
We have the same definition.

thro the ball to a spot and in this play have the RB go and get the pass. It's the same thing as throwing a guy open. He could've hit the RB on this play. Great QB's make this throw regularly.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I refuse to hold a conversation with you because it’s always negative when it’s pertaining to a player you do not like. No way in hell Watson could’ve stepped up in that pocket and deliver there. Especially when non of the receivers were opened. Like I’ve mentioned before you do not take everything into account here. You’re too focused on tearing down Watson.
The RB on the left was open, the WR on the right (On the numbers was open.)

I dont blame you for not wanting to discuss this, I wouldn't want to either if I was in your shoes. I mean what can you really say? Why do I feel an incoming unlike. But if DW4 is going to become a top 5 QB he's got to learn to make these kinds of throws. (This is a fact.)
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Yeah well we agree to disagree.

The near side wr on an out was open longer. Both throws look like int bait frankly. I dont think any avg qb makes that read / throw and I don't think many hof qbs do either unless that's a primary wr.

I think your stretching here to meet an agenda. Some plays are just dead and to me this is one of them.
I agree about avg QB's.

But great QB's make that throw regularly.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
I must have missed the point.

I thought he asked what my definition of throwing with anticipation was.
He did. And he was making the point that you can't have an accurate anticipation for someone running the wrong route.

If the point in anticipating is to throw to the space that they're going to be then you have to be on the same page with the space that they're going to be. If DW felt mid-scramble that the back was cutting a different direction then he was perhaps anticipating then he'd reasonably have to keep the ball and let the play progress.. which he did.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
He did. And he was making the point that you can't have an accurate anticipation for someone running the wrong route.

If the point in anticipating is to throw to the space that they're going to be then you have to be on the same page with the space that they're going to be. If DW felt mid-scramble that the back was cutting a different direction then he was perhaps anticipating then he'd reasonably have to keep the ball and let the play progress.. which he did.
He needs to throw the ball to where the RB is supposed to be and let the chips fall where the may. If the RB runs the wrong route it's on him. He has to trust that his guys. He will never be the QB he could be if he doesn't learn to trust his guys. Nuk was the only guy he trusted, he's going to have to learn to trust more of his receivers this season.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
He needs to throw the ball to where the RB is supposed to be and let the chips fall where the may. If the RB runs the wrong route it's on him. He has to trust that his guys. He will never be the QB he could be if he doesn't learn to trust his guys. Nuk was the only guy he trusted, he's going to have to learn to trust more of his receivers this season.
Not if he can actually see the guy he's supposed to trust cutting a different direction while he's moving to avoid pressure.

Why should he throw it where it's 'supposed to be' when he can see the target moving away from that space?
 

Earl34

Veteran
Not if he can actually see the guy he's supposed to trust cutting a different direction while he's moving to avoid pressure.

Why should he throw it where it's 'supposed to be' when he can see the target moving away from that space?
He is just asking for a Pick-6 and to say "I told you so. Watson can't read defenses."

All kidding aside. In the Fuller video I posted, Watson didn't have any problems throwing that same type of pass quickly and on target to Fuller. Maybe, throwing to a RB who was still learning the offense and didn't have any offseason time with the playbook might lead to Watson holding the ball a half second longer to confirm he is running the correct routes. There are many factors to consider besides what SteelBS is trying to dish.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Not if he can actually see the guy he's supposed to trust cutting a different direction while he's moving to avoid pressure.

Why should he throw it where it's 'supposed to be' when he can see the target moving away from that space?
We dont know what he saw.

It looked to me like the WR was open but tightly covered. A throw was there to be made and DW4 passed on the throw.
 

Earl34

Veteran
The RB on the left was open, the WR on the right (On the numbers was open.)

I dont blame you for not wanting to discuss this, I wouldn't want to either if I was in your shoes. I mean what can you really say? Why do I feel an incoming unlike. But if DW4 is going to become a top 5 QB he's got to learn to make these kinds of throws. (This is a fact.)
Did you watch the video I posted showing Watson making the exact same throws you are saying he has to "learn" to make?
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
We dont know what he saw.

It looked to me like the WR was open but tightly covered. A throw was there to be made and DW4 passed on the throw.
You seemed to think you know what he saw when you claimed he should have anticipated a particular throw.. that's literally how anticipation works..

Bottom line is you have a bias that will not allow any other answer than DW screwed up.. completely irrespective of the thoughts several other people have reasonably brought to the table.. And that's fine to be your prerogative, but it just doesn't leave much room for discussion on the subject. So cool, you enjoy bud..
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You seemed to think you know what he saw when you claimed he should have anticipated a particular throw.. that's literally how anticipation works..

Bottom line is you have a bias that will not allow any other answer than DW screwed up.. completely irrespective of the thoughts several other people have reasonably brought to the table.. And that's fine to be your prerogative, but it just doesn't leave much room for discussion on the subject. So cool, you enjoy bud..
This isn't about Bias or being right.

This is about this being an area where he needs to improve if he wants to become an elite QB.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Do you disagree with the all he had to do was step up into the pocket?
Yes , I disagree with "all he had to do was step up" …. because of the timing of the pressure. That pressure got home at such a time that Watson couldn't let the ball go in the window that the RB had separation.

Now had the RB taken the inside option , the window is much wider as the RB has the defender in a trailing position on a diagonal route - basically the defender is in no mans land in terms of defending the throw - all he can do is hope to make a tackle at that point.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
He needs to throw the ball to where the RB is supposed to be and let the chips fall where the may. If the RB runs the wrong route it's on him. He has to trust that his guys. He will never be the QB he could be if he doesn't learn to trust his guys. Nuk was the only guy he trusted, he's going to have to learn to trust more of his receivers this season.
Lmao this doesn’t make any darn sense whatsoever. So if he throws a pick then you’ll be on here trashing him for that.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
The RB on the left was open, the WR on the right (On the numbers was open.)

I dont blame you for not wanting to discuss this, I wouldn't want to either if I was in your shoes. I mean what can you really say? Why do I feel an incoming unlike. But if DW4 is going to become a top 5 QB he's got to learn to make these kinds of throws. (This is a fact.)

Yes , those openings were there …. but you have to consider that those openings coincided with the pressure and after Watson escaped it , those windows were closed.

You want to blame someone for the failure of this play - Blame Tunsil.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I don't even think Watson tucking & running would have made a 1st here.
I think if he'd have taken off to his right he could have made the line to gain & slide before anyone could hit him.

Maybe.

But he has to be decisive. A lot went wrong on that play, from concept to execution & just about everyone got a little of the blame here, in this thread.

My biggest gripe with Watson here, is that he changed his mind two or three times & the outcome was bad for our team.

I don't think it matters what his 1st read was, the edge rusher beat him to his drop point. He stepped up, which is good, & starts to his right. Then decides to go to his left to buy time, then maybe cut it upfield, then back....

I don't really know what he's thinking, but in my mind he knows the play is busted when Frank Clark grabs his as. I think he decided to go to the right & get the 1st down himself, then changed his mind.

Chances are he never even thought about running for the first, we'll never know. But I hope the next time he's in that situation in a big game he handles it better & we can...

 

Earl34

Veteran
Well of course, an all pro WR like nuk is gonna get majority of the throws
You can criticize Watson for many things. But to criticize him for throwing to his dominant WR1, when
  • WR2 is out or nursing an injury
  • WR3 was new to the team, did not have an offseason or training camp with the Texans and also had multiple games nursing an injury
  • WR4 was in the dog house or running the wrong routes
  • WR5 is Deandre Carter. A PR/KR
With the facts above, which WR should Watson trust to win the one on one matchups, consistently be where he expects or look to for a critical catch? When you look at any dominant WR and see the pass distribution on their teams, you realize complaining about Watson throwing to Hopkins is one of the more idiotic stances in this forum.

Using that same logic, when you have a great RB, you shouldn't give him 200+ carries a season. You should share the load with RB2.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
So you are convinced that the H route was the 1st progression and was a RB option route at that??? Not sure I see that. The RB is setting up the out by planting his foot and driving towards the sideline, if he keeps moving into the center he is adequately covered by the defender and only causing more traffic in the same space as the Z, only by juking is he able to gain the slight separation that he does and would typically signal that the route was never intended to go inside if he's taking that hard a cut. The Z could have helped him even more by slow playing his route and causing a natural rub where the defender would have been picked or needed to take the long way around, but still required an extra second of protection to allow the play to materialize - I agree Tunsil ruined that play. These redundant "combo" patterns are an OBrien staple, double outs, double ins, double crosses. Thats the main gripe from the X's and O's crowd, that he isnt offering true layered passing into every zone. He congests things with this approach. Look at how many bodies breaking into the same space, look at how much grass between the hash marks. Its not a smart design or call at that point in the game. It was almost keyed on by the defense if you ask me by how hard the safety breaks on the Y - they were waiting for it.
It's obvious that you didn't understand what I said. No , the RB wasn't the first read , he was the 2nd.
Actually the first read is the defender on the WR - where he has leverage dictates the route choice of the WR - an in or out route. He played the inside forcing the WR outside and once that went down he was under the WR - this is the 3rd read in the progression - There was never a window for Watson to make a throw to that player. (part of that is the fact that the RB took the outside option which puts his defender in play on that throw).

The RB is the 2nd read - again the defender is actually the read as it dictates the RB's options on that route. If he's leveraging inside , it creates separation outside , if he leverages outside , it opens up the inside …. Initially the defender was leveraged outside , adjusted square & the RB went outside - There was a small window to throw into.

Again that window coincided with the DE coming in the back door forcing Watson to avoid him - after which the window was closed.

All other routes were designed to pull defenders away from the middle …. and weren't part of Watson's progression / options.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
You can criticize Watson for many things. But to criticize him for throwing to his dominant WR1, when
  • WR2 is out or nursing an injury
  • WR3 was new to the team, did not have an offseason or training camp with the Texans and also had multiple games nursing an injury
  • WR4 was in the dog house or running the wrong routes
  • WR5 is Deandre Carter. A PR/KR
With the facts above, which WR should Watson trust to win the one on one matchups, consistently be where he expects or look to for a critical catch? When you look at any dominant WR and see the pass distribution on their teams, you realize complaining about Watson throwing to Hopkins is one of the more idiotic stances in this forum.

Using that same logic, when you have a great RB, you shouldn't give him 200+ carries a season. You should share the load with RB2.
In 1994, the San Francisco 49ers won the Super Bowl. HOFer Steve Young targeted his #1 receiver (Jerry Rice) 151 times! All other wide receivers on the team only was targeted 106 times. That means Young went to Rice 59% of the time when throwing to wide receivers. Steve Young will never amount to anything if he relies on a single receiver that much.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
In 1994, the San Francisco 49ers won the Super Bowl. HOFer Steve Young targeted his #1 receiver (Jerry Rice) 151 times! All other wide receivers on the team only was targeted 106 times. That means Young went to Rice 59% of the time when throwing to wide receivers. Steve Young will never amount to anything if he relies on a single receiver that much.

BINGO!
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
In 1994, the San Francisco 49ers won the Super Bowl. HOFer Steve Young targeted his #1 receiver (Jerry Rice) 151 times! All other wide receivers on the team only was targeted 106 times. That means Young went to Rice 59% of the time when throwing to wide receivers. Steve Young will never amount to anything if he relies on a single receiver that much.
With all of that talent around Young, he only won one SB. He was no Montana and I think we are on to the reason why.

Bingo
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
We've had this conversation before. Most dominant #1 WRs get 1/2 of all throws to WRs. Take a look at Drew Brees and Michael Thomas. Also, you keep forgetting that the TEs and RBS had as many targets as the #2 and #3 WRS.

Why do you act like a passing game is only the passes to WRs?

EDIT: NVM. I know the answer..
Are you saying Nuk wasn't the only guy he truly trusted?

Oh well we don't have to worry about this anymore.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Yes , those openings were there …. but you have to consider that those openings coincided with the pressure and after Watson escaped it , those windows were closed.

You want to blame someone for the failure of this play - Blame Tunsil.
Do you think Brady/Brees could have completed a pass on that play?
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Do you think Brady/Brees could have completed a pass on that play?
I don't think so , you have to understand that the pressure arrived before the RB made his cut and the separation didn't last long and during that instant Watson couldn't throw it.

Then you have to look at Watson's feet , he wasn't in a position to throw to that side of the with any velocity because of the pressure.

Nobody was making that throw.

Run the play back a few times and freeze it at 2.5 , 3.0 , 3.5 & 4.0 seconds and note where each player is the WR , RB and those two defenders - The DE and Watson.

A whole lot happens between 2.5 and 3.5.


That play was on Tunsil plain and simple. He does his job that's a first down.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
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I don't think so , you have to understand that the pressure arrived before the RB made his cut and the separation didn't last long and during that instant Watson couldn't throw it.

Then you have to look at Watson's feet , he wasn't in a position to throw to that side of the with any velocity because of the pressure.

Nobody was making that throw.

Run the play back a few times and freeze it at 2.5 , 3.0 , 3.5 & 4.0 seconds and note where each player is the WR , RB and those two defenders - The DE and Watson.

A whole lot happens between 2.5 and 3.5.


That play was on Tunsil plain and simple. He does his job that's a first down.
I will trust you on this since you've learned how to breakdown QB play from the best. But because pressure arrived before the RB made his cut that should have given DW4 the time to step up and deliver the ball. I will go back and break it down.

Good point about his feet. Agreed about Tunsil.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
It's obvious that you didn't understand what I said. No , the RB wasn't the first read , he was the 2nd.
Actually the first read is the defender on the WR - where he has leverage dictates the route choice of the WR - an in or out route. He played the inside forcing the WR outside and once that went down he was under the WR - this is the 3rd read in the progression - There was never a window for Watson to make a throw to that player. (part of that is the fact that the RB took the outside option which puts his defender in play on that throw).

The RB is the 2nd read - again the defender is actually the read as it dictates the RB's options on that route. If he's leveraging inside , it creates separation outside , if he leverages outside , it opens up the inside …. Initially the defender was leveraged outside , adjusted square & the RB went outside - There was a small window to throw into.

Again that window coincided with the DE coming in the back door forcing Watson to avoid him - after which the window was closed.

All other routes were designed to pull defenders away from the middle …. and weren't part of Watson's progression / options.
Situationally speaking you have alot of reads going on in a 3rd and 6 with the most important game of the year on the line. I find it hard to believe that the instruction there would be for the primary/secondary involved in the progression to make a read on the defender and then Watson will find you. There has to be some structure and defined expectations WITHOUT so many possible variations on one play its a huge reason why plays are not on time and take so long to develop in other facets of this offense - its a cruel manifestation at the worst possible time if that were the case here. On 3rd and 6 you need bread and butter, you need that simple out/in that worked so many times before throwing a dot to a spot. If KC doesn't read that play so well it would have been a first down to the flex receiver even with the pressure. More beneficial use of the RB there would have been as an extra blocker on the left edge especially looking at at a psycho front like that IMO - either the construct doesnt allow it or Watson missed assigning the blocker. I think hoping that the RB was supposed to read into the middle is just trying to excuse a lack of planning on the coaching staff in that situation. Remember this is the same coaching staff that said they didnt have a play they "liked" for a 4th and 1 in the same game.
 

Earl34

Veteran
What's funny with the discussion about that play. In the playoff game against the chiefs, the DBs were sitting on those out routes. It was a beautiful play that went against the tendencies. For example, the play could have been an out to Hopkins or a screen to Fuller. All DBs jumped hard on the short routes.

This was one of the better play calls and designs. It actually took advantage of the defense knowing their tendencies to run outs or bubble screens on 3rd and short. The question I have. Based on the way Hopkins is blocking, was the play a bubble screen and Stills made an adjustment based on the coverage he saw?

 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
What's funny with the discussion about that play. In the playoff game against the chiefs, the DBs were sitting on those out routes. It was a beautiful play that went against the tendencies. For example, the play could have been an out to Hopkins or a screen to Fuller. All DBs jumped hard on the short routes.

This was one of the better play calls and designs. It actually took advantage of the defense knowing their tendencies to run outs or bubble screens on 3rd and short. The question I have. Based on the way Hopkins is blocking, was the play a bubble screen and Stills made an adjustment based on the coverage he saw?

Exactly as you put it Earl IMO ... this was a beautiful use of tendency killers .. it was absolutely designed to look like the famous OBrien bubble screen, and as soon as the defenders bit you see Kenny with the hand fly .. he knew they were dead and all Deshaun had to do was hit him in stride. Same thinking should have been applied to the play we have been breaking down .. look at how hard the safety bit into the TE route .. if you could have expected that you could have run a combo route off of that read alone, but there was no contingency on that play.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
What's funny with the discussion about that play. In the playoff game against the chiefs, the DBs were sitting on those out routes. It was a beautiful play that went against the tendencies. For example, the play could have been an out to Hopkins or a screen to Fuller. All DBs jumped hard on the short routes.

This was one of the better play calls and designs. It actually took advantage of the defense knowing their tendencies to run outs or bubble screens on 3rd and short. The question I have. Based on the way Hopkins is blocking, was the play a bubble screen and Stills made an adjustment based on the coverage he saw?


That was likely an option built into the play design from day one.

All those options in routes are defined by how defenders act and are what makes this offense so complicated.


For every action , there's an equal and opposite reaction - that holds true in football just as it does chess or physics. For every thing the defense tries to take away , they give up something.
More often than not the actual reads are not Watson's pass catchers but the defenders and how they leverage on a given play. That is the visual que for both Watson and the receiver to act upon.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Situationally speaking you have alot of reads going on in a 3rd and 6 with the most important game of the year on the line. I find it hard to believe that the instruction there would be for the primary/secondary involved in the progression to make a read on the defender and then Watson will find you. There has to be some structure and defined expectations WITHOUT so many possible variations on one play its a huge reason why plays are not on time and take so long to develop in other facets of this offense - its a cruel manifestation at the worst possible time if that were the case here. On 3rd and 6 you need bread and butter, you need that simple out/in that worked so many times before throwing a dot to a spot. If KC doesn't read that play so well it would have been a first down to the flex receiver even with the pressure. More beneficial use of the RB there would have been as an extra blocker on the left edge especially looking at at a psycho front like that IMO - either the construct doesnt allow it or Watson missed assigning the blocker. I think hoping that the RB was supposed to read into the middle is just trying to excuse a lack of planning on the coaching staff in that situation. Remember this is the same coaching staff that said they didnt have a play they "liked" for a 4th and 1 in the same game.

Bottom line is if Tunsil isn't beaten , that play is a successful one.
 

Earl34

Veteran
With all of that talent around Young, he only won one SB. He was no Montana and I think we are on to the reason why.
Steve Young led his team to three consecutive NFCCG against the Jimmy Johnson coached Cowboys. He lost to the Cowboys in 1992, 1993 and beat them on the way to winning the Super Bowl in 1994.

Are you implying Young didn't win more championships because he relied too much on Rice? Because when Young and his 49ers lost to the Cowboys, Irvin had 122 of the 246 targets to WRs in 1992 and then 121 of the 210 targets to WRs in 1993. It seems like Aikman relied on Irvin as much as Young relied on Rice. Because...that's what QBs do when they have HOF #1 WRs.

Try again... :kitten:
 
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Number19

Hall of Fame
They dont have to run the ball more than once or twice a game and they dont even have to be running QB's to execute the RPO. But they do have to present the threat of the QB keeping the ball and that's what's lacking in the O'Brien version of the RPO offense.
I know I'm jumping in late, but they have weekly QB sessions with Kelly, OB, all the QB's, and I don't know who else, where they discuss game plan, etc. Something just feels out of kilter that this play would remain in the play book and not.discussed in any of these meetings.
 

santo

All Pro
Contributor's Club
Steve Young led his team to three consecutive NFCCG against the Jimmy Johnson coached Cowboys. He lost to the Cowboys in 1992, 1993 and beat them on the way to winning the Super Bowl in 1994.

Are you implying Young didn't win more championships because he relied too much on Rice? Because when Young and his 49ers lost to the Cowboys, Irvin had 122 of the 246 targets to WRs in 1992 and then 121 of the 210 targets to WRs in 1993. It seems like Aikman relied on Irvin as much as Young relied on Rice. Because...that's what QBs do when they have HOF #1 WRs.

Try again... :kitten:
Those qb's would have learned more if their #1 target was taken away, at least that's what I learned here.

:kitten:
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Honest question, but why is the QB keeper a requirement to run an RPO? The Eagles run a lot of RPO the past few seasons, and Wentz/Foles aren't really guys that run the ball all that often.

That's an easy question -

The entire concept of that play is to gain an advantage in numbers either inside or outside.

If you get the numbers advantage outside and don't take it , you are running into a numbers disadvantage on the inside.

Why would you run headlong into a disadvantage ?

And lets remember that it isn't necessarily an RPO - it is a Run Run Concept.
 


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