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Houston Texans 2017 1st round pick, Deshaun Watson, QB, Clemson

Earl34

Veteran
I thought you asked and I answered this earlier , maybe I wasn't clear that this wasn't a recent phenomena - It has been an ongoing occurrence.

How can he make mistakes and produce at an ALL PRO level ? … He's a special talent , that should be self explanatory. That doesn't mean he can't make a mistake / run the wrong route. Or that even if he does run the wrong / a poor route that the ball can't be thrown to him. He's open even if he's not open ….

As I said earlier , there was more to the trade than running the wrong routes. If it were just that , I think his talent would have kept him in a Texans uniform.
Out of curiosity. What did the minority owner say about Watson?
 

Lucky

Moderator
Staff member
As I said earlier , there was more to the trade than running the wrong routes. If it were just that , I think his talent would have kept him in a Texans uniform.
That's what I've said from the beginning. This was about a personality conflict between the HC and star WR. And the HC has come up with excuse de jour depending on whom he was talking to. When O'Brien went to Gaine about trading Hopkins, Gaine laughed at him. Because it was laughable. That's why it was such a horrible decision to name O'Brien as the GM. There needs to be a buffer between the coach and player when things go sideways. Especially with a HC with the nickname "Teapot."
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
That's what I've said from the beginning. This was about a personality conflict between the HC and star WR. And the HC has come up with excuse de jour depending on whom he was talking to. When O'Brien went to Gaine about trading Hopkins, Gaine laughed at him. Because it was laughable. That's why it was such a horrible decision to name O'Brien as the GM. There needs to be a buffer between the coach and player when things go sideways. Especially with a HC with the nickname "Teapot."
Reminds me of the story BOB wanted to cut Ryan Mallet right before a game for being late, which meant Shane Lechler would have been the backup QB for that game. Rick needed to step in to stop this, so we'd at least have Mallet as the backup for the game.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
That's what I've said from the beginning. This was about a personality conflict between the HC and star WR. And the HC has come up with excuse de jour depending on whom he was talking to. When O'Brien went to Gaine about trading Hopkins, Gaine laughed at him. Because it was laughable. That's why it was such a horrible decision to name O'Brien as the GM. There needs to be a buffer between the coach and player when things go sideways. Especially with a HC with the nickname "Teapot."

No , not a personality conflict.

We agree a buffer is needed between coach and player …. teapot or no.


I didn't like the deal when it happened , I still don't think they got fair value but I can understand the why ...
 

Decim8

Practice Squad
He had the RB in the left flat.

He looked at him and turned down that option waiting for somebody to get open for a big play and then went into his chicken with his head cut off routine.

BTW, I'm sure UR will place this sack on Tunsil and the OL.
The RB looked covered to me
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I also don't understand why no one is attacking the middle of the field? Why is everyone running sideline routes?
At first glance it appears someone ran the wrong route - probably the RB as he had inside leverage and a wide open middle. He had the defender leaning outside , the defender adjusted and he cut outside - he (the RB) was actually open at that point but short of the marker.
Watson couldn't deliver at that point because Tunsil had been beaten pretty badly.

Had the RB continued inside , he had wide open spaces …. and an easy first down.
Had Tunsil not been beaten , its likely a first down as it was run.

The RB looked covered to me
Freeze the play at 0:03. and watch as the defender has to shift his feet ….

He had the defender beat either way.
 

Decim8

Practice Squad
True,

1st read was open and DW4's very good in these situations. It's when he has to go to his 2nd/3rd reads where the issues start.
True, but just the top of my head, it seems like the pressure of the four man rush is already in his face by the time he even gets to his 3rd read
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
True, but just the top of my head, it seems like the pressure of the four man rush is already in his face by the time he even gets to his 3rd read
Not if he stepped up in the pocket. The rusher would have gone right by him, even though Tunsil got beat on the plat. Not Clark type of beat.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
That's the thing though, how do we even know the RB ran the wrong route? Maybe that's the offensive call that was called (as silly as it may sound).

Credit to the defense for the tight coverage though, everyone looked covered

Accept it wasn't covered initially.

The RB had the defender beat easily with either option.

Initially the defender was leaning outside which gave the RB the middle route , he adjusted and the RB went outside - He still had separation.

Thing was , at the time of that separation , Watson was having to avoid the guy who beat Tunsil.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Thought this was an interesting tweet from a fan on twitter today - seemed to fit everyones narratives so I'll be curious to read what you guys see.

Are you saying this is a failure in play design ? …. after watching that play several times - the failure isn't on the play design , that play was set up for success. The RB & receiver lined up wide were options 1 and 2.

The failure was on the execution …. particularly on Tunsil getting beat like a drum. If he does his job that's a first down.

The RB has separation ….but because of the pressure by the outside rusher Watson can't deliver the ball while that separation is there. After that window closed , its keystone cops.

I'd still contend that the RB should have run the crossing route instead of going outside as the defender covering the other receiver on that side had inside leverage which forced him outside and the defender coming along - leaving the middle free. The position of that defender should have been the que for the RB's choice of route.

But despite that - if Tunsil doesn't get beat that play's likely a first down.
 

FuzzyLogic

Mathematically Possible
Agree with what you pointed out - don't think you can have anything blamed on Watson there, Tunsil was just beat (actually get's beat twice on that one play) another fraction of a second and that is a first down to the back, as is the defender and Watson get to his drop back at the same time you can't expect him to be able to throw it.

Would have had more options if the back had gone inside though as by the time Watson can reset there are two defenders and two receivers within 5 yards of each other.

Another thing I got from it is for a bit all the receivers just kind of stopped and watched the show then most decided to take off down the field, would have like to see the ones well beyond the first down marker charge back towards the QB. But your right they could have started playing the Benny Hill theme song right after Tunsil lost his man, would have fit.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Agree with what you pointed out - don't think you can have anything blamed on Watson there, Tunsil was just beat (actually get's beat twice on that one play) another fraction of a second and that is a first down to the back, as is the defender and Watson get to his drop back at the same time you can't expect him to be able to throw it.
Not on Watson , not on OB …. on Tunsil.

Would have had more options if the back had gone inside though as by the time Watson can reset there are two defenders and two receivers within 5 yards of each other.
That's why I contend that the RB made the wrong route choice - despite the fact that he still had separation to make a catch - that route over the middle was much easier and can be made even with Tunsil getting beat.

Another thing I got from it is for a bit all the receivers just kind of stopped and watched the show then most decided to take off down the field, would have like to see the ones well beyond the first down marker charge back towards the QB. But your right they could have started playing the Benny Hill theme song right after Tunsil lost his man, would have fit.
Both @CloakNNNdagger and I made the same observation …. receivers have to know that when their QB gets in trouble to ….. present their numbers - None of them did that.

Que Benny Hill.

 

Decim8

Practice Squad
I guess the issue I have with the play call is what about the 2nd & 3rd reads? Apart from the RB running the wrong route (that's still assuming if he did), no one else is open in this play and thats even if the line holds up. Part of the reason why watson holds onto the ball waiting for some sort of separation.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I guess the issue I have with the play call is what about the 2nd & 3rd reads? Apart from the RB running the wrong route (that's still assuming if he did), no one else is open in this play and thats even if the line holds up. Part of the reason why watson holds onto the ball waiting for some sort of separation.
By all appearances , this was an option read where the first and third reads are based off of the leverage the defender on the wide out is playing. The RB being the second read.

I cannot make out the number on the receiver on that side - looks like one of the TE's split out ?

Before the cut , the defender on the wide out had very good inside position all but forcing the receiver outside , after the cut he's in a trail under position which makes that a really difficult throw - he played that really well. Add in the proximity of the other defender on the RB and that flat throw is all but impossible.


That's your first and third reads.

The second read is the defender on the RB - looking at leverage. He's leaning outside initially - When that defender adjusted , the RB went outside on a flat route and had an opening tho a much more difficult throw than the inside route.

The inside route was a gimmie with the defender initially leaning outside. The RB would have him in a trail position on an angular route which is all but impossible for him to defend and the other defender stuck on the wide out with the safety over the top.

I should rephrase the "ran the wrong route". He probably had an option there based upon the defender. With either choice he had his guy beat …. and the pressure on Watson caused the breakdown.

It's fairly obvious the routes on the opposite side were designed to pull defenders away from the middle and weren't otherwise part of Watson's choices. He never looked to that side either.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Are you saying this is a failure in play design ? …. after watching that play several times - the failure isn't on the play design , that play was set up for success. The RB & receiver lined up wide were options 1 and 2.

The failure was on the execution …. particularly on Tunsil getting beat like a drum. If he does his job that's a first down.

The RB has separation ….but because of the pressure by the outside rusher Watson can't deliver the ball while that separation is there. After that window closed , its keystone cops.

I'd still contend that the RB should have run the crossing route instead of going outside as the defender covering the other receiver on that side had inside leverage which forced him outside and the defender coming along - leaving the middle free. The position of that defender should have been the que for the RB's choice of route.

But despite that - if Tunsil doesn't get beat that play's likely a first down.
So you are convinced that the H route was the 1st progression and was a RB option route at that??? Not sure I see that. The RB is setting up the out by planting his foot and driving towards the sideline, if he keeps moving into the center he is adequately covered by the defender and only causing more traffic in the same space as the Z, only by juking is he able to gain the slight separation that he does and would typically signal that the route was never intended to go inside if he's taking that hard a cut. The Z could have helped him even more by slow playing his route and causing a natural rub where the defender would have been picked or needed to take the long way around, but still required an extra second of protection to allow the play to materialize - I agree Tunsil ruined that play. These redundant "combo" patterns are an OBrien staple, double outs, double ins, double crosses. Thats the main gripe from the X's and O's crowd, that he isnt offering true layered passing into every zone. He congests things with this approach. Look at how many bodies breaking into the same space, look at how much grass between the hash marks. Its not a smart design or call at that point in the game. It was almost keyed on by the defense if you ask me by how hard the safety breaks on the Y - they were waiting for it.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
So you are convinced that the H route was the 1st progression and was a RB option route at that??? Not sure I see that. The RB is setting up the out by planting his foot and driving towards the sideline, if he keeps moving into the center he is adequately covered by the defender and only causing more traffic in the same space as the Z, only by juking is he able to gain the slight separation that he does and would typically signal that the route was never intended to go inside if he's taking that hard a cut. The Z could have helped him even more by slow playing his route and causing a natural rub where the defender would have been picked or needed to take the long way around, but still required an extra second of protection to allow the play to materialize - I agree Tunsil ruined that play. These redundant "combo" patterns are an OBrien staple, double outs, double ins, double crosses. Thats the main gripe from the X's and O's crowd, that he isnt offering true layered passing into every zone. He congests things with this approach. Look at how many bodies breaking into the same space, look at how much grass between the hash marks. Its not a smart design or call at that point in the game. It was almost keyed on by the defense if you ask me by how hard the safety breaks on the Y - they were waiting for it.

Good breakdown from all that has participated.

I really don’t dive into all the semantics like that but I will say this again.!! That’s the problem with Bill O’Brien’s offense, NO CREATIVITY.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
Thought this was an interesting tweet from a fan on twitter today - seemed to fit everyones narratives so I'll be curious to read what you guys see.

Rb in the left flat was open for just an instant (1/8) and the near side wr was open on an out for a quarter second.

I don't expect Brady or Montana to hit either of those honestly.

Unless those guys were primary receivers (I dont believe they were) there is nothing else available on this play. Kc played man coverage tight here and there are no windows.

Kc showed blitz heavy on the weak side but a defender bailed out to cover the rb. Tunsil had to respect the inside blitz they showed and lost the outside rush because of it.

I dont blame tunsil on this and I'm not sure I blame Watson either. Do we know if he has the option to audible to a strongside run where the offense out numbers the defenders?

I dont even know the down and distance here ,but as a pass play this is dead.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
All he had to do was step up in the pocket and deliver the throw. There were options available even if the RB ran the wrong route. This is the kinnd of play I have been saying DW4 needs to improve on.
I presume your talking about the play posted by uncle rico/7 times a charm. If not please let me know.

There is literally nothing available for Watson there in the pass game. Your criticism here should center around audibles here rather then missing reads for wrs who were open for a fraction of a fraction of a second.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Rb in the left flat was open for just an instant (1/8) and the near side wr was open on an out for a quarter second.

I don't expect Brady or Montana to hit either of those honestly.

Unless those guys were primary receivers (I dont believe they were) there is nothing else available on this play. Kc played man coverage tight here and there are no windows.

Kc showed blitz heavy on the weak side but a defender bailed out to cover the rb. Tunsil had to respect the inside blitz they showed and lost the outside rush because of it.

I dont blame tunsil on this and I'm not sure I blame Watson either. Do we know if he has the option to audible to a strongside run where the offense out numbers the defenders?

I dont even know the down and distance here ,but as a pass play this is dead.
It was 3rd and 6 - KC had just scored 34 consecutive points. I suppose you could have options there for split seconds, I dont see those guys look back for the ball as soon as you see guys who have a play called for them - its why it looks like the TE is the #1 by body language and Watsons eyes. Look how fast the SS responds to the play .. almost as if he knew Houston wanted to go to that player - good job by the defense.

IF Tunsil was not at fault I'd like to see how they are teaching the OL to pass block/communicate. No way you can allow a 3-4 man rush get home in that situation - just cant have it.

Watson should have tucked it an ran for the 1st - it would have been the only positive available there.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
It was 3rd and 6 - KC had just scored 34 consecutive points. I suppose you could have options there for split seconds, I dont see those guys look back for the ball as soon as you see guys who have a play called for them - its why it looks like the TE is the #1 by body language and Watsons eyes. Look how fast the SS responds to the play .. almost as if he knew Houston wanted to go to that player - good job by the defense.

IF Tunsil was not at fault I'd like to see how they are teaching the OL to pass block/communicate. No way you can allow a 3-4 man rush get home in that situation - just cant have it.

Watson should have tucked it an ran for the 1st - it would have been the only positive available there.

Tunsil has to respect the inside rush more then the outside rush. Period.

He only lost a half step because of it but we see the result. Thanks for the down and distance. A strong side run might not of got that. The pass play definitely wasn't going to get it.

Aside from expecting Watson magic here I dont see much chance of success.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Rb in the left flat was open for just an instant (1/8) and the near side wr was open on an out for a quarter second.

I don't expect Brady or Montana to hit either of those honestly.

Unless those guys were primary receivers (I dont believe they were) there is nothing else available on this play. Kc played man coverage tight here and there are no windows.

Kc showed blitz heavy on the weak side but a defender bailed out to cover the rb. Tunsil had to respect the inside blitz they showed and lost the outside rush because of it.

I dont blame tunsil on this and I'm not sure I blame Watson either. Do we know if he has the option to audible to a strongside run where the offense out numbers the defenders?

I dont even know the down and distance here ,but as a pass play this is dead.
The RB was open even though he made the wrong choice of routes. I expect great QBs to be able to make that throw because they step up into the pocket and deliver an accurate/ anticipatory throw. If DW4'S going to become what we all hope he can become he's going to have to be able to do this.

Why do I think other great QBs can make this throw? Because I've seen them do this many times before.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
All he had to do was step up in the pocket and deliver the throw. There were options available even if the RB ran the wrong route. This is the kinnd of play I have been saying DW4 needs to improve on.
This is why it's impossible to have a discussion with the UR/TB's of the world.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Tunsil has to respect the inside rush more then the outside rush. Period.

He only lost a half step because of it but we see the result. Thanks for the down and distance. A strong side run might not of got that. The pass play definitely wasn't going to get it.

Aside from expecting Watson magic here I dont see much chance of success.
Trust me I know "you never get beat inside" .. thats where assignments and responsibilities cant be eschewed ... If because of the front, Tunsils responsibility became the man on his inside shade, who picks up the edge? The RB who has been called to run a route? From what I remember OLines are taught to block in one general direction on pass plays dependent on pass structure. If the edge guy isnt Tunsils man on that play, then someone needs to know as much, Im not even sure an audible would have corrected the breakdown - this runs further than "the QB needs to call out all the signals" this delves into the systemic approach to how each independent unit is coached in order to be integrated into the larger package.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
It was 3rd and 6 - KC had just scored 34 consecutive points. I suppose you could have options there for split seconds, I dont see those guys look back for the ball as soon as you see guys who have a play called for them - its why it looks like the TE is the #1 by body language and Watsons eyes. Look how fast the SS responds to the play .. almost as if he knew Houston wanted to go to that player - good job by the defense.

IF Tunsil was not at fault I'd like to see how they are teaching the OL to pass block/communicate. No way you can allow a 3-4 man rush get home in that situation - just cant have it.

Watson should have tucked it an ran for the 1st - it would have been the only positive available there.
I don't even think Watson tucking & running would have made a 1st here.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
The RB was open even though he made the wrong choice of routes. I expect great QBs to be able to make that throw because they step up into the pocket and deliver an accurate/ anticipatory throw. If DW4'S going to become what we all hope he can become he's going to have to be able to do this.

Why do I think other great QBs can make this throw? Because I've seen them do this many times before.

Yeah well we agree to disagree.

The near side wr on an out was open longer. Both throws look like int bait frankly. I dont think any avg qb makes that read / throw and I don't think many hof qbs do either unless that's a primary wr.

I think your stretching here to meet an agenda. Some plays are just dead and to me this is one of them.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
Trust me I know "you never get beat inside" .. thats where assignments and responsibilities cant be eschewed ... If because of the front, Tunsils responsibility became the man on his inside shade, who picks up the edge? The RB who has been called to run a route? From what I remember OLines are taught to block in one general direction on pass plays dependent on pass structure. If the edge guy isnt Tunsils man on that play, then someone needs to know as much, Im not even sure an audible would have corrected the breakdown - this runs further than "the QB needs to call out all the signals" this delves into the systemic approach to how each independent unit is coached in order to be integrated into the larger package.
I think "system" criticism here is most warranted.

Again, do we know what freedom Watson has with audibles?
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
I don't even think Watson tucking & running would have made a 1st here.
Maybe. It was the only positive play available in that particular situation IMO. If he tucks as soon as he feels the first bit of pressure he may have a seam towards the right hash as soon as the SPY vacated. Instead Deshaun keeps trying to find an open guy. This is PRECISELY where the dual threat QB is supposed to be the most capable.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
Maybe. It was the only positive play available in that particular situation IMO. If he tucks as soon as he feels the first bit of pressure he may have a seam towards the right hash as soon as the SPY vacated. Instead Deshaun keeps trying to find an open guy. This is PRECISELY where the dual threat QB is supposed to be the most capable.
It's a quick decision even by nfl standards. I don't see any other real shot at success here.
 

amazing80

Fire Billy O
Good point. I didn't think of the possibility that BO'b could be telling him to play it that way.

Wouldn't make any sense, but that's par for the course.
Why wouldn’t OB tell him that? OB is all about running and pounding the rock inside. It’s been his MO before Watson. He’s never utilized Watson’s feet outside year one when he was forced to improvise. These two are not complimentary of each other. OB runs a system that doesn’t work anymore. Run run pass deep. But he won’t give it up. And to make things worse Watson isn’t that type of QB. He’s a quick hitting QB that needs to get into a rhythm.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
Why wouldn’t OB tell him that? OB is all about running and pounding the rock inside. It’s been his MO before Watson. He’s never utilized Watson’s feet outside year one when he was forced to improvise. These two are not complimentary of each other. OB runs a system that doesn’t work anymore. Run run pass deep. But he won’t give it up. And to make things worse Watson isn’t that type of QB. He’s a quick hitting QB that needs to get into a rhythm.
I actually think ALL QBs are rhythm QBs. That's one of the reasons uptempo offenses work.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
This is why it's impossible to have a discussion with the UR/TB's of the world.
I refuse to hold a conversation with you because it’s always negative when it’s pertaining to a player you do not like. No way in hell Watson could’ve stepped up in that pocket and deliver there. Especially when non of the receivers were opened. Like I’ve mentioned before you do not take everything into account here. You’re too focused on tearing down Watson.
 
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otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
The RB was open even though he made the wrong choice of routes. I expect great QBs to be able to make that throw because they step up into the pocket and deliver an accurate/ anticipatory throw. If DW4'S going to become what we all hope he can become he's going to have to be able to do this.

Why do I think other great QBs can make this throw? Because I've seen them do this many times before.
I have to ask, what is your definition of an anticipatory throw? I’m not trying to be a smart ass but I’m not sure how you throw with anticipation to a receiver that “made the wrong route choice”. To me throwing with anticipation is more throwing the ball where the receive is going to be, for example I throw the ball to the outside before the wr makes a break on an out route.
 

Earl34

Veteran
The RB was open even though he made the wrong choice of routes. I expect great QBs to be able to make that throw because they step up into the pocket and deliver an accurate/ anticipatory throw. If DW4'S going to become what we all hope he can become he's going to have to be able to do this.

Why do I think other great QBs can make this throw? Because I've seen them do this many times before.
Yes. Blindly throwing quick passes has worked so well for Texans' QBs....:kitten:

 

Earl34

Veteran
I have to ask, what is your definition of an anticipatory throw? I’m not trying to be a smart ass but I’m not sure how you throw with anticipation to a receiver that “made the wrong route choice”. To me throwing with anticipation is more throwing the ball where the receive is going to be, for example I throw the ball to the outside before the wr makes a break on an out route.
Here is a video full of anticipation and accuracy throws, but it will be ignored to harp on this wrong route choice play. Par for the course. Look at Fuller running the outs similar to that play. Watch the formation and how close Fuller is to Hopkins and compare the results with the play. Look at the WR splits, formations, quick throws and separation on Fuller's out routes at the 40 seconds and 1:12 marks.

 
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Earl34

Veteran
I have to say that example is probably unfair in that Schaub's notorious pick 6 run was after a terrible injury. His overall completion percentage during his time with the Texans essentially matches that of Watson.
Agree. It wasn't my intention to pick on Schaub. The comments about stepping up and quick throws to the flats and their outcome results in immediate success reminded me of these plays. Like I said previously, "no job is too hard for those who don't have to do it."
 
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Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Here is a video full of anticipation and accuracy throws, but it will be ignored to harp on this wrong route choice play. Par for the course. Look at Fuller running the outs similar to that play. Watch the formation and how close Fuller is to Hopkins and compare the results with the play. Look at the WR splits, formations, quick throws and separation on Fuller's out routes at the 40 seconds and 1:12 marks.


Earl this is one of the reasons why I believe , if healthy Fuller will be Watson number one target.
 


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