Mr teX
Hall of Fame
CREDIBLE. Not incredible. Besides WFV playing 50% of the time is better than any of the 3 I mentioned playing 100% of the time. That’s not at all disputable.
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Hopkins Says He can be Better than AJ
- Thread starter DocBar
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CREDIBLE. Not incredible. Besides WFV playing 50% of the time is better than any of the 3 I mentioned playing 100% of the time. That’s not at all disputable.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
The point is invalid. Since when has Hop shown an inability to put up good numbers without Fuller? He's been tearing it up from the start with new QB's literally almost every season of his career. When Fuller is hurt he doesn't somehow disappear. He dominates. If anything the only argument to be made here is that Hopkins makes it easier for Fuller to get open and to make the big plays. Hopkins has shown more than any other receiver in the league that he can perform well no matter what situation at QB he's in or who is around him. No one can guard him.
You're also ignoring the fact that Johnson had more years of consistency at QB with Schaub and a damn good TE in Daniels. He also had 8 yrs of a Kubiak offense which is clearly better than OB's offensive strategy, and everyone remembers how much I hate Kubiak but he had much better execution thab OB did offensively from a system standpoint.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
As it relates to AJ, no its not invalid. Nuk has never had to be on the field for more than 1 year with the likes of a Kevin Walter and an Andre Davis type as the other WR "threat" primarily opposite of him. Nuk had AJ his 1st couple of years, then got WFV. And as i said Even a WFV healthy half the season is still much more of a threat than AJ ever had. I'll go out on a limb and say Ellington when healthy was much more of a factor than Kevin Walter ever was.
& don't get me wrong, I LOVE Nuk & this isn't a slight to him. But to act like a prime AJ couldn't do what Nuk is doing if he had the same favorable situation is laughable. Nuk has done more at this stage of their respective careers, but he's also had more offense that was designed to exclusively get him the ball. Kubiak's offense wasn't set up like that. it was set up around the run & AJ would have to wait until the inevitable play action boot would come around. Kubiak's offense never really favored having Schaub just drop back and force feed AJ like BoB's offense does with Nuk at times & it's a big part of the reason AJ never had a double digits TD season...noone to take the heat off him.
I don't know that I would say Nuk runs better routes... I think they are both incredible route runners... I think if I had to break it down, I would say that AJ was better at getting separation and had speed for days whereas Hopkins is always open because he might be the best I've ever seen at the contested catch.
And for the record, I'm not saying Nuk is better... The point of bringing this thread back from the dead was that this is a real conversation.
Do what?
You can't do that man! You can't argue that AJ is disadvantaged because he didn't have as many playmakers around him and then turn around and argue that the offense wasn't designed exclusively to get him the ball.
When's the last time Nuk had a rb that guaranteed you would have a safety in the box? Are you suggesting that anyone Nuk has played with is as good as Daniels?
I mean at the end of the day... I think that they are very close, but you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here. AJ can't be better because they didn't try to get him the ball enough and also because nobody around him was any good. Part of the reason that the ball wasn't force fed to him is he was not elite when it came to catching contested passes. He was good but that wasn't his primary skill. Nuk gets force fed the ball because you can.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Daniels was a good pass catching TE, average everywhere else....& we know that outside of a few guys in the history of the game a TE catching the ball is not the same type of threat that a WR 2 is. Foster typically drew a lb when he went out in route so again, not quite the same dynamic.
A prime AJ was elite at EVERYTHING and it shouldn't be held against him that Kubiak typically favored running the ball in instead of throwing those end zone fades that we all clamored for. AJ at his absolute peak was good for 100 catches, 1400-1500 yds and 6-8 TD's. The next closest guy to him was almost never his WR 2 counterpart...it was always either Foster or the TE. Think about that. Kevin Walter...Devier Posey.......Jacoby Jones....Eric Moulds........the myriad of WR#2's he played with prior to Nuk & in his best years with the team, only a few times did those guy manage to be 2nd in receptions to him. & even then those guys were like 50-60 receptions behind him. It should also be mentioned that 1 of those times that was the case was Nuk's rookie year.
When you can put up the numbers AJ did in a run 1st offense, with terrible secondary options opposite you, yeah, you're a bad MFer. Both are animals.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Route running there is no comparison. That wasn't even a strength of AJ's. He was just a physical freak that opposed his will on people more often. He was never a highly.skilled route runner type of receiver. Never heard anyone describe as that in his prime. It was always about what. physical beast he was.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Then you weren't listening. AJ wasn't a polished route runner when he came into the league but by the time of his best years he was elite and people frequently commented on it. Hopkins credits AJ with his route running.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Nope don't ever remember AJ being promoted as one of the league's best route runners. Just as a physical specimen with pretty good hands and great yards after the catch. I wouldn't expect Hop to call a team's legendary receiver mentoring him anything but a great route runner/pass catcher/and everything else as well. Not exactly an example that changes anything. Look, I'm not saying he was a poor route runner either. He was slightly above average. But Hopkins is way better at running routes. His cuts, his moves, and his ability to get seperation is 2nd to none right now especially for a guy who really isn't fast for a receiver.
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Much respect for both players, and I think both will eventually be HoF.
That said, AJ never had double-digit TD numbers. And that is the point of offense, isn't it, to score?
Nuk has done it twice already, and one season when he had Brian Hoyer, Ryan Mallet, TJ Yates, and Brandon Weeden at QB. Not exactly an impressive list there.
AJ was the Hulk. Nuk is Spider-Man. Both awesome players, but different styles, and are very lucky (and spoiled!) as fans to have these guys for most of the Texans existence.
That said, AJ never had double-digit TD numbers. And that is the point of offense, isn't it, to score?
Nuk has done it twice already, and one season when he had Brian Hoyer, Ryan Mallet, TJ Yates, and Brandon Weeden at QB. Not exactly an impressive list there.
AJ was the Hulk. Nuk is Spider-Man. Both awesome players, but different styles, and are very lucky (and spoiled!) as fans to have these guys for most of the Texans existence.
Shishkabob
All Pro
I remember a story that came out back when AJ left. Towards the end when it was clear that the Texans and AJ were going to part ways, in guessing after the dinner, AJ went up to Nuk after a team meeting and said something like " it's your time now, time to step up and become the man."
I have no clue if that story is true, but if it is Nuk definitely rose to the challenge
I have no clue if that story is true, but if it is Nuk definitely rose to the challenge
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Prime AJ could muscle you up to get off the jam, shake u on a route with short area quickness and could run by you too........Schaub’s noodle arm just could never hit him in stride when he got loose on deep routes..he’d have to wait on the ball and he’d get caught from behind because of it.
Again, AJ in his prime could do whatever u needed him to do.
Nuk, isn’t really running by anyone and he’s not separating too much either. He specializes in the contested catch and his catch radius is insane.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Now try looking at the TD numbers for TEs. They cease to exist under OB whereas for Kubiak they were his go to red zone option (other than Foster). I can't hold play calling against a player.
Now when it was had to have, say TD & 2 pt against Baltimore to tie, they went to him and he delivered.
Scooter
Funky
Very true. AJ also had the uncanny bad luck that so many of his big plays were over inside the 10 yard line instead of going for touchdowns. When paying attention to that during highlight videos it becomes disheartening ... "tackled at the 5, out of bounds at the 3, tackled at the 7" over and over. Only a couple were underthrown long balls from Schaub (I know people were thinking it), that's just where the play happened to end.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
It took a long, long, long time for Hopkins to not need to circle back on a route just to be in a position to catch the ball.
Some of that was due to shitty quarterbacks but a lot of it was due to Hopkins.
I don't recall Andre ever having those issues.
Either way, I'm not nearly interested in numbers because they depend on so much other stuff. I go based off what I watch. What I see them able to do. Hopkins does a LOT of **** well. He's incredible.
He's no Andre.
But that's fine. We had arguably the GOAT-non Rice and without any gap, now have arguably the best in the game. It's one of the nicer parts of being a Texans fan, for sure.
I remember a few under throws that AJ had to wait on from Schaub (remember why we called him "noodle arm"?) Are you sure, given the cast of misfits Hopkins had throwing to him (until Watson) that those circle backs were on Hopkins?
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
Maybe. It was quite the noticeable pattern. I don't know.
ShinobiMusashi
Waterboy
Especially now that they have cracked down on hitting defenseless receivers and defenders are actively trying to stay away from those fouls. Back during a bulk of Andre's career(at least half of it) it was still ok to try to knock a receiver out of a game. They headhunted on Andre a lot back in the day. The 2008 game against Pittsburgh is on Youtube, Pitt that year was one of the best defenses of all time, Andre was ALL we had, they tried to take him out several times in that game but he still got over 100 yards.
Seegara
Guitar Picker, Dog Lover, Woodworker
Let's hope he won't believe in himself so much that he holds out.
Holds out of what?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
He's in the 1st year of a 5 year extension.
Nuk makes some amazing catches, but that's more out of necessity than anything else. He isn't good at getting separation. AJ had the dropsies when he first came into the league but worked hard on his craft and became a much more polished receiver than Nuk, imo.
AJ was a beast... but continued with dropsies throughout his career. Made the tough ones, but would drop an easy one, almost every game
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You know, I haven't seen where "BETTER" is actually defined.
I've seen excellence in both styles - and they are different styles - so somebody tell me/us what "better" means.
...more TDs? more circus catches? more yards? more catches that turn/win games...?
...anybody?
I've seen excellence in both styles - and they are different styles - so somebody tell me/us what "better" means.
...more TDs? more circus catches? more yards? more catches that turn/win games...?
...anybody?
To me the thing that makes Nuk special is his uncanny body control. That catch where he pinned the ball to his hamstring was already amazing to me, because I saw a guy being pushed sideways & spinning around & at the last second shot his arm out for what I thought was an amazing one handed catch. He literally looked like Spider man, or the Matrix.
It wasn't till I saw the replay that I noticed he caught it with his ass (literally).
Before we saw his body control with those amazing toe tapping catches. Now I'm seeing it goes beyond that.
Better than AJ? That's a juvenile question for the media. He's damn good. So was AJ.
That's certainly one way to spin it.
However, AJ was still on the field for those plays, and the QB still had him out there as an option. Kubiak wasn't throwing the ball at the end of the day.
HoF will be looking at those numbers, too. I doubt they care about who was calling the plays.
I'm not disparaging AJ. His TD numbers just aren't there compared to just about every other elite WR in NFL history. It is what it is. Spin it.
Shishkabob
All Pro
McClain claims he already has his argument and evidence for when that gets brought up. Julio Jones will be in the same boat one day
kcdoubleeagle
Waterboy
I assume this is blasphemy...I love me some AJ. But I think Hopkins is the better receiver already. I'm not sure it's that close. TD's alone says a lot; they eye test...I just think Hopkins is so special it's hard to put anyone besides a Moss, Rice,
Carter, Swann, Brown, etc; above him. He's that good;
Carter, Swann, Brown, etc; above him. He's that good;
Rich Schmidt
Myopicone
But today I saw Reggie Bush put Thielen ahead of him, yep, that guy. I can listen to arguments on AB, Julio or Nuk, but come on man, who is going to redraft Thielen over these guys. Dude is consistently getting yards and is fine, but noone is game planning as heavy for him as the real top three
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
Two posts that tell the story of AJs career.
By the time AJ got Foster and the team was clicking on offense he was getting older but still putting up great numbers.
This is Hopkins fifth year?
If the math is correct in AJs fifth year he was playing with a rookie RB Steve Slaton and Ahman Green, Matt Schaub, it was the year of Rosencopter, and his other receivers were Kevin Walter and Jacoby Jones.
It wasn’t until the following year (2009 - sixth) that Foster was on the roster, and he rode the bench the entire year. They drafted Cushing that year. Frank Bush was promoted to DC. AJ had Chris Brown, Slaton, and Ryan Moats as RB. Same WR. They finished 9-7.
In the following year Foster had his breakout and the Texans finished 6-10.
So it wasn’t until his 8th year (2011)they finally had something going. He was having his hamstring issues by then. Schaub had a year or two until Lisfanc?
Johnson was let go in 2014.
How depressing. He had a much tougher career and hard to compare.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Schaub got hit late 2011. That was a team that could have won but for Suh.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
Wow.
When you put all the years together and the events he had to endure -
Carr years (drafted)
Ahman Green
Gary Kubiak putting a team together that took several seasons
Slaton
Rosencopter
Frank Bush (mid career)
Chris Brown Half back throw
Kevin Walter
Jacoby Jones
Kris Brown field goals
The Gary Kubiak annual 4 game losing streak
Schaub’s Lisfranc turning into pick 6’s (older years)
Hamstring issues of his own
Foster having hamstring issues when he was healthy
End of Texans career
He never really had a chance. Ten years of suck.
Shishkabob
All Pro
as was also pointed out in that segment, opposing teams still put their #1 corners on Diggs. So Thielen who is a #1 receiver is still going against the weaker link. Got to be nice having two #1 receivers on your team.
Although I don't actually think Bush honestly believes Thielen is the best in the game, they are all meant to have different list so they can debate each other. If they walked out and everyone declared Nuk #1 they'd have 10 minutes of dead air
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
I thought it was when he performed his rendition of the "Nutcracker" for Schaub.
He did. Haynesworth was the guy that broke Schaub's foot.
https://www.battleredblog.com/2018/...-albert-haynesworth-hadnt-injured-matt-schaub
Yep he could out run them or run over their azz.
Never gets old!
I dunno what's he got two more years before he's eligible for the HOF vote ?
He signed a one day contract to retire a Texan on April 19, 2017 so I believe he will be eligible for 2022 class.
Shishkabob
All Pro
I would hope the league isn't dumb enough to count a 1 day contract that allows a great player to retire with the team he spent the majority of his career, but it is the Roger Goddell NFL
I don’t think that affects him because he retired prior to that on October 31, 2016 so that would still be 2022.