Grossman done in Chicago...

[thunderkyss]

I classify myself as a realist, not an apoligist.

I still assert it will be more difficult to find the great qb everyone wants (including me). Leave Carr alone, let him play out his contract, and lets build a team from the ground up.

Still..... we don't need a great QB. We need someone who will let our Wide receivers be Wide Receivers, and run more than go routes & Slants. Some one who'll stretch the field, and let our RBs get to the second level more than 5 yards beyond the LOS. We need a QB who can at least make it to his second read, before the dump off, so our tight-ends in the middle of the field would serve some kind of purpose.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

The difference is money . If your QB gets paid 2 million then you're probably not going to expect him to be a focal point of your offense .

 

[QB75]

T-Kyss, my beef with Grossman is he does one thing well... throwing the deep ball. Everything else is subpar. Everything. Not accurate, not smart, not poised, not a playmaker with his feet, not clutch, uncomfortable throwing intermediate routes, undersized, and he certainly doesn't seem to have the confidence of his teammates. Maybe I'm being hard on him... but I'm talking about the way he looks on the field, not the box score or the final score. He just looks like another big arm.

Yeah, he also did a poor job of stopping the Colts final drive in which they ran the ball right down the throat of the Bears' defense. Might as well blame him for that too since the loss was apparently all his fault.

 

[Mr teX]

Still..... we don't need a great QB. We need someone who will let our Wide receivers be Wide Receivers, and run more than go routes & Slants. Some one who'll stretch the field, and let our RBs get to the second level more than 5 yards beyond the LOS. We need a QB who can at least make it to his second read, before the dump off, so our tight-ends in the middle of the field would serve some kind of purpose.

Come on T-skyss, Is that all DC's fault? I'm not going to apologize for Dc's play, cause the overriding factor is that it has been 5 years & he's produced very little, but alot of that has to do with time allowed (created) in the pocket & talent, which we severely lack in all of the above.

To me they are basically the same guy at opposite ends of the spectrum as far as the talent they are surrounded by.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Yeah, he also did a poor job of stopping the Colts final drive in which they ran the ball right down the throat of the Bears' defense. Might as well blame him for that too since the loss was apparently all his fault.

You mean a Defense that had been on the field all game. At one point the Colts had 3 times as many plays on offense. In 3 quarters the Bears offense had 3 turnovers, including 2 fumbled snaps and 8 3 and outs. So whose fault is that?Sorry but anyone who thinks the Bears D was the problem after looking at TOP and plays is dead wrong. Defenses can only be on the field for so long when you are playing an offense that runs a modified hurry up. When they stopped them to FGS and turnovers Rex gave it right back..sometimes on the next play.

 

[thunderkyss]

Come on T-skyss, Is that all DC's fault? I'm not going to apologize for Dc's play, cause the overriding factor is that it has been 5 years & he's produced very little, but alot of that has to do with time allowed (created) in the pocket & talent, which we severely lack in all of the above.

To me they are basically the same guy at opposite ends of the spectrum as far as the talent they are surrounded by.

David has had more than 2.5 seconds to throw the ball on most occasions. For some reason on his 3 step drops(which is about 2 seconds), he comes off his back foot, sets to throw, then pulls the ball back down. More than half of his sacks this year has been similar..... he needs to throw the ball. When he sets up to throw, it is too late for him to look around for another option. If he's looking at whoever, and he usually is, all he has to decide is where he should put the ball, ahead, behind, inside, outside, in the stands. But I don't even trust him to make those decisions, because 1) he never throws it away from the pocket. & 2) when he does throw the ball, his placement have been off on most all of them(I think there have been half a dozen that were right).

Are you saying we are lacking talent at the WR, TE, & RB spot??

I don't buy that for one minute.

 

[thunderkyss]

You mean a Defense that had been on the field all game. At one point the Colts had 3 times as many plays on offense. In 3 quarters the Bears offense had 3 turnovers, including 2 fumbled snaps and 8 3 and outs. So whose fault is that?Sorry but anyone who thinks the Bears D was the problem after looking at TOP and plays is dead wrong. Defenses can only be on the field for so long when you are playing an offense that runs a modified hurry up. When they stopped them to FGS and turnovers Rex gave it right back..sometimes on the next play.

If I could, I'd like to ask you to take this thinking back to our first three games.

pretty much the same scenario, but David's 4th Qtr stats makes it appear that our passing offense was carrying our team..... in fact, they hung our defense out to dry in the same situation you're describing here. Against Philly, our young D forced 3 & outs, punts, field goals, & even got an interception, But all anybody remembers, is that they couldn't get Philly off the field in the final 8 minutes of the game.

 

[TwinSisters]

If I could, I'd like to ask you to take this thinking back to our first three games.

pretty much the same scenario, but David's 4th Qtr stats makes it appear that our passing offense was carrying our team..... in fact, they hung our defense out to dry in the same situation you're describing here. Against Philly, our young D forced 3 & outs, punts, field goals, & even got an interception, But all anybody remembers, is that they couldn't get Philly off the field in the final 8 minutes of the game.

eh.. your memory is faulty

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20060910_PHI@HOU

The Eagles were driving from the 2nd Quarter on. We had only two stops in the 1st Quarter... it was all Eagles after that... big plays surrendered.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Yeah, he also did a poor job of stopping the Colts final drive in which they ran the ball right down the throat of the Bears' defense. Might as well blame him for that too since the loss was apparently all his fault.

If it was'nt for the Bears defense , Rex would have had to buy a ticket to the Super Bowl .

They would have been better off in the 3rd qtr . ... taking the ball and kneeling it while letting the play clock run down to 2 seconds before snapping it .... then punting it . Kinda like running against Cleveland and not passing .

 

[HoustonFrog]

If I could, I'd like to ask you to take this thinking back to our first three games.

pretty much the same scenario, but David's 4th Qtr stats makes it appear that our passing offense was carrying our team..... in fact, they hung our defense out to dry in the same situation you're describing here. Against Philly, our young D forced 3 & outs, punts, field goals, & even got an interception, But all anybody remembers, is that they couldn't get Philly off the field in the final 8 minutes of the game.

Exactly TK. That was my point. People who just watch the games literally without looking at TOP, etc just don't get it. That is one of many reason that I think Carr is a hinderance. If they are trying to slowly dink and dunk down the field and can't get into a rhythm or make big plays then the defense just gets thrown back on the field. As much as people forget, the Cowboys D of the 90s was a bend but don't break kind of D and they would stop teams to FGs and get some turnovers, except they had an offense that could score and take time off the clock.

 

[Mr teX]

David has had more than 2.5 seconds to throw the ball on most occasions. For some reason on his 3 step drops(which is about 2 seconds), he comes off his back foot, sets to throw, then pulls the ball back down. More than half of his sacks this year has been similar..... he needs to throw the ball. When he sets up to throw, it is too late for him to look around for another option. If he's looking at whoever, and he usually is, all he has to decide is where he should put the ball, ahead, behind, inside, outside, in the stands. But I don't even trust him to make those decisions, because 1) he never throws it away from the pocket. & 2) when he does throw the ball, his placement have been off on most all of them(I think there have been half a dozen that were right).

Are you saying we are lacking talent at the WR, TE, & RB spot??

I don't buy that for one minute.

first of all, on 3 step drops there usually isn't enough time for another read (3 steps, closeness to the line, etc) in fact, it's usually a 1 read play, that goes for almost every team. I don't understand, do you want him to force it even it's not there, cause you know he has done that on many occasions & usually the worst case scenario happens, the ball is popped in the air & INT. second, i don't know of any or i should say many QB's who get rid of the ball inside of 2.5 seconds regularly other than...you guessed it Brady & Manning, the 2 best qb's in the game today, but trust me they are the best for MANY more reasons than that. & yes we do lack talent at all those spots as well as pretty much every spot on our team, we have arguably 2-5 worthy starters on our entire team for christ sakes!


Add in the fact that the 3 step drop was basically our passing game for 4 years prior to Kubiak & teams basically go into games waiting on it. What was it K. Bullock of Tenn. said after 1 of our titans games this past year about DC & our passing game? I think it was something to the effect of knowing that he'll be able to pass on us but nothing that was "really going to hurt us." That says alot about DC as well as the talent on our team. Teams know we can't protect so it's just a matter of making us 1-dimensional.

I think that the biggest problem with DC is that he can't read defenses Fast enough to get the ball off close to your 2.5 secs.

 

[HJam72]

I thin David Carr would have been able to make some the throws that Rex could not.

I agree. I'm not going to say that Carr is the answer here and all that, but I do think Grossman is worse--considerably worse. I've got nothing against him, but I've rarely seen even Carr be THAT bad. OK, a few times, but not usually THAT bad.

Now, if you blame Carr for like 80% of his own sacks, then MAYBE he's as bad as Grossman. Grossman did almost nothing until the 4th Qtr., and then I saw why--because he just can't. Carr does that too, but he doesn't miss his targets THAT badly in the 4th. I mean sometimes they can even catch them, if they're acrobatic about it.

 

[HoustonFrog]

I agree. I'm not going to say that Carr is the answer here and all that, but I do think Grossman is worse--considerably worse. I've got nothing against him, but I've rarely seen even Carr be THAT bad. OK, a few times, but not usually THAT bad.

Now, if you blame Carr for like 80% of his own sacks, then MAYBE he's as bad as Grossman. Grossman did almost nothing until the 4th Qtr., and then I saw why--because he just can't. Carr does that too, but he doesn't miss his targets THAT badly in the 4th. I mean sometimes they can even catch them, if they're acrobatic about it.

Honestly, if that was a regular season Texans game, the battle cry would be .."Carr went 20-28 and once he got time(4th quarter) he made plays. The fumbled snaps were due to the weather and the passes were due to knowing his line never gives him time so he tried to go downfield..we always complain he never goes downfield. He had to try and make plays............."

All I'm doing is showing people what it is like to hear those things after seeing a bad QB perform. You can keep spinning it all day and that is what people do here for Carr.

 

[HJam72]

Honestly, if that was a regular season Texans game, the battle cry would be .."Carr went 20-28 and once he got time(4th quarter) he made plays. The fumbled snaps were due to the weather and the passes were due to knowing his line never gives him time so he tried to go downfield..we always complain he never goes downfield. He had to try and make plays............."

All I'm doing is showing people what it is like to hear those things after seeing a bad QB perform. You can keep spinning it all day and that is what people do here for Carr.

I'm not spinning for Carr, man. I'm saying that Grossman was horrible. I have to admit though that I've been up all night (tired) and I just remembered that it rained in the SB, lol. I'm sure that had a lot to do with it.

 

[HoustonFrog]

I'm not spinning for Carr, man. I'm saying that Grossman was horrible. I have to admit though that I've been up all night (tired) and I just remembered that it rained in the SB, lol. I'm sure that had a lot to do with it.

Sorry, I wasn't gearing that towards you specifically. I know what you were saying. I just meant it in general since the talk has centered around comparing both guys ability to "suck"..lol.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

The only chance the Bears had was get a lead and run the ball . They got the lead but turned the ball over way to much .

The QB had a 2nd and one yard and fell down and lost eleven . On 3rd and twelve he fumbled the snap and killed the drive . This was at a critical part of the game where the Bears were losing by five .

 

[Dr. Toro]

The topic is unavoidable, so here's my twenty cents. Carr is a much better player than Grossman is now, or will ever be. Carr would be a really nice fit for Chicago. He could execute well enough and make enough plays to win a lot of games for the Bears and probably win that game. I don't think it's really fair to compare the two. One guy is surrounded by top talent and looks like a joke half the time... one guy has average talent and line problems and struggles.

And I don't think citing Grossman's inexperience helps him at this point, he's injury prone and immature. Carr's a year older and has 50 more starts under his belt. We may not like how he's performed in those games, but at least he's been able to get out on the field.

With respect to their performance on the field, they're entireley different players with a few similar problems. Carr doesn't throw the ball downfield much or take chances anymore for whatever reason. Grossman only throws the ball short outside or deep down the middle and sidelines, and alternates between gunshy and foolishly aggressive. With his personnel and line though, there's no good reason Grossman should be comfortable making 1/3 of the throws he's expected to make. Carr's far more accurate and less aggressive/foolhardy. He doesn't have tons of glaring holes in his game like Rex, he's just pretty average.

They might seem like similar QBs, but you really gotta consider the context. Houston fans are disappointed with Carr because he can't "elevate the franchise", "put the team on his back", or "make those around him better". Don't confuse that with holding back an immensely talented and dominant team back like Grossman does. That ridiculous INT by Carr at TEN is a commonplace throw for Grossman. Carr's issues are mainly that he struggles with the pass rush and makes bad decisions when hurried. Grossman's issues are that he makes bad decisions by nature, with his jersey clean and the defense on its heels. If you surrounded Carr with Chicago type talent and kept his jersey clean all day, he'd do just fine.

Right now, that type of player doesn't seem to be enough in the eyes of Houston fans. That's a completely different issue than the one with Grossman in Chicago.

 

[thunderkyss]

eh.. your memory is faulty

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20060910_PHI@HOU

The Eagles were driving from the 2nd Quarter on. We had only two stops in the 1st Quarter... it was all Eagles after that... big plays surrendered.

• 1st Qtr
  Houston: TD
  Eagles:Punt
  Houston: Punt
  Eagles: Int
  Houston: punt
• 2nd Qtr
  Eagles: TD
  Houston: Punt
  Eagles: Punt
  Houston: FG
  Eagles: TD
• 3rd Qtr
  Eagles: TD
  Houston: Punt
  Eagles: Punt
  Houston: Punt
• 4th Qtr
  Eagles: FG
  Houston: Turn over on Downs
  Eagles: run out the clock

The Eagles had 9 possessions, and scored TDs on 3 of them. 1 FGs. We forced 3 punts, and 1 Int... Our Defense gave our offense the ball twice, when we had the lead, and we did nothing to extend it.

After the Eagles scored, we did nothing, our defense forced another punt, we then go up by three. They scored a TD to end the half, and again to start the third, & we're down by 11.

We get the ball, we punt...... our defense forces a stop, we get the ball still down by 11.... we punt.
We hold them to a field goal, we turn it over on downs. Then we couldn't get them off the field.

We had 2 opportunities to extend a lead, we didn't.
We had two opportunities to break the tie.... we went up by 3.

Down by 11 we had 2 opportunities to cut into the lead.... we didn't
with 9 minutes left to play in the game, we turn it over on downs....

We had eight possessions in that game, and walked away with 10 points. 8 possessions...... 27 minutes... avg's 3 minutes per possession. 4 possessions were for more than 4 minutes, The other four were 3 minutes & under. we scored on 2 of 8 possessions.

 

[thunderkyss]

first of all, on 3 step drops there usually isn't enough time for another read (3 steps, closeness to the line, etc) in fact, it's usually a 1 read play, that goes for almost every team. I don't understand, do you want him to force it even it's not there, cause you know he has done that on many occasions & usually the worst case scenario happens, the ball is popped in the air & INT. second, i don't know of any or i should say many QB's who get rid of the ball inside of 2.5 seconds regularly other than...you guessed it Brady & Manning, the 2 best qb's in the game today, but trust me they are the best for MANY more reasons than that. & yes we do lack talent at all those spots as well as pretty much every spot on our team, we have arguably 2-5 worthy starters on our entire team for christ sakes!


Add in the fact that the 3 step drop was basically our passing game for 4 years prior to Kubiak & teams basically go into games waiting on it. What was it K. Bullock of Tenn. said after 1 of our titans games this past year about DC & our passing game? I think it was something to the effect of knowing that he'll be able to pass on us but nothing that was "really going to hurt us." That says alot about DC as well as the talent on our team. Teams know we can't protect so it's just a matter of making us 1-dimensional.

I think that the biggest problem with DC is that he can't read defenses Fast enough to get the ball off close to your 2.5 secs.

2.5 is avg around the league. 3 is really good, and anything close to 4(or more) is considered all day. The clock in a QBs head is to get rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds....... that's a 5 step drop, and for people who can run a 40 yard dash in under 5 seconds, that's 15 yards.

I've got the Tennessee games taped, in one of those games, you can clearly see Vince taking a three step drop. Step one, he's looking to his left, step three, he's looking straight ahead, and step three, he's looking to the right. He steps up in the direction he wants to throw the ball, and that's that.

& no, I don't want David to force the ball, I want him to throw it away. If you haven't noticed, if David is sacked, we won't throw the ball, regardless of down & distance on the next play.... so we don't just lose that play, we often lose the next one as well, running a draw on 3rd & 17....

 

[Mr teX]

2.5 is avg around the league. 3 is really good, and anything close to 4(or more) is considered all day. The clock in a QBs head is to get rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds....... that's a 5 step drop, and for people who can run a 40 yard dash in under 5 seconds, that's 15 yards.

I've got the Tennessee games taped, in one of those games, you can clearly see Vince taking a three step drop. Step one, he's looking to his left, step three, he's looking straight ahead, and step three, he's looking to the right. He steps up in the direction he wants to throw the ball, and that's that.

& no, I don't want David to force the ball, I want him to throw it away. If you haven't noticed, if David is sacked, we won't throw the ball, regardless of down & distance on the next play.... so we don't just lose that play, we often lose the next one as well, running a draw on 3rd & 17....

& for every one of those you can find I can find a Qb who upon snap, looks right over at his primary reciever & throws the ball, no look off what-so-ever (Manning to Harrison anyone?). The truth of the matter is on a 3 step drop it really doesn't matter much if you look off or not, other facets of the offensive game plan open that up (the ability to throw it intermediate, deep), but when you're doing that every single pass play (like we pretty much have to), cornerbacks start to anticipate it & jump the route to where it is either picked or nearly picked.

Again teams already know this about us if they have a functional scouting department so they just tell the corners to sit on the quick slant because they know we aren't going to go much deeper than that. not taking away from your 2.5 sec. thing, i think it's valid, but there are other things that influence why DC is stinking it up in the passing department, it's not just that he won't throw it.

 

[real]

Our O-line wasn't that bad....

 

[OzzO]

& for every one of those you can find I can find a Qb who upon snap, looks right over at his primary reciever & throws the ball, no look off what-so-ever (Manning to Harrison anyone?)....

You know, I noticed that about Manning too some time ago (maybe last year) but thinking about it, it's quite possible he can lock on his weapon of choice because he can read the defense (better) and can find the weakness while he's at the line changing a call (within 3 choices from what I've heard) to something that plays to the defense's weakness for that plan, mismatch or such.

 

[Mr teX]

Our O-line wasn't that bad....

Apparently grossman's wasn't either since they were good enough to get to the Superbowl.
i
But don't get me wrong, it's not all on our O-line either, it's the collection of them, our talent level, DC stinking it up & our Dom Capers "try to stay in it & win at the last minute" reputation.

 

[QB75]

You mean a Defense that had been on the field all game. At one point the Colts had 3 times as many plays on offense. In 3 quarters the Bears offense had 3 turnovers, including 2 fumbled snaps and 8 3 and outs. So whose fault is that?Sorry but anyone who thinks the Bears D was the problem after looking at TOP and plays is dead wrong. Defenses can only be on the field for so long when you are playing an offense that runs a modified hurry up. When they stopped them to FGS and turnovers Rex gave it right back..sometimes on the next play.

Yes. That's the defense I mean. They didn't step to the challenge.

 

[Texasian]

I classify myself as a realist, not an apoligist.

I still assert it will be more difficult to find the great qb everyone wants (including me). Leave Carr alone, let him play out his contract, and lets build a team from the ground up.

Can't we do that NOW! Realisticly, he stinks (for the most part, not all)! We don't need a great QB, just someone better!

 

[HomeBred_Texan]

Was reading about Train Rex on Fox sports and found some talk interesting. Of course, there is NO trade talk going on at this moment and the suggestion of giving a 1st through 5th rounder for Carr is an ignorant statement.

It also mentions Jake the Snake Plummer...

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6446740?MSNHPHMA

Another source of quarterbacking talent is the draft, which could yield someone with enough moxie to lead the Bears to glory. However, the developmental timeline would be an issue for a team already prepared to make the next step.

The next region of upgrade exploration is the trade market. According to league insiders, David Carr — who was the draft's first overall pick after he finished playing for Fresno State — will be available. Unfortunately, Carr was selected by the pass-block-deficient Houston Texans and has spent more time on his back than Dracula. Nobody truly knows if Carr should play or be parked.

Denver must be eager to get rid of Jake Plummer, a talented-but-shaky veteran who at least understands what it's like to be despised in a football-mad city. Don't look for him (or anyone else) to land in Chicago, either.