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For all of the Carr haters...
- Thread starter texan279
- Start date
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
ArlingtonTexan said:
I agree with some of what you have to say about Carr, but quoting the clearly worst player (and someone with a reputation for defensiveness) on the OL isn't really proof of anything.
For a little perspective, as a former Cowboys' fan virtually everything being said about Carr now was said about Aikman in his 1st three years. Amazing what a good OL and team in general can do for a QB's development.
And gr8--come on, Manning behind this OL would be better than Carr but would be a whiney boy with nothing like the stats he has had and meanwhile Carr in Indy wouldn't have Manning's stats but would be a "top tier" QB--not giving all that credit to Carr, but because of the offensive team.
the intention of my reply, infantry, was that if the Colts would have drafted Carr 3 years ago, he would be a backup to Manning. That is it, plain and simple.
I don't play the woulda, coulda, shoulda, fantasy game of Manning playing in Houston and Carr playing on the Colts. But your scenario would be the most probable if that were to occur with a simple one for one trade of QB's.
as for the McKinney comment, I am with infantry on that totally. When McKinney actually learns how to play center he MIGHT start to realize that the pressure being brought onto Carr is NOT normal. Until then he should keep his trap shut, cause all McKinney is doing is showing his ignorance of what a NORMAL O-line is supposed to do. IMHO.
I don't play the woulda, coulda, shoulda, fantasy game of Manning playing in Houston and Carr playing on the Colts. But your scenario would be the most probable if that were to occur with a simple one for one trade of QB's.
as for the McKinney comment, I am with infantry on that totally. When McKinney actually learns how to play center he MIGHT start to realize that the pressure being brought onto Carr is NOT normal. Until then he should keep his trap shut, cause all McKinney is doing is showing his ignorance of what a NORMAL O-line is supposed to do. IMHO.
TexanBacker93
Veteran
McKinney is popular because he's on 610. He's a average center at best and doesn't do either pass or run blocking exceptionally well. For him to criticize his QB shows that changes do need to be made on the line. He's supposed to be the anchor of that line and in 3 years I haven't seen him totally dominate anyone. He was serviceable for an expansion team, but for the Texans to make the move into the next level in the NFL's class system they have to upgrade their center.
As for the booing of Carr...he's the franchise QB for a team with expectations. He will be booed. Fans will always want the guy on the bench if the team isn't doing well. I grew up in Colorado and watched games at Mile High with Elway in the 80s. He was booed by fans in Denver when he struggled. It's part of being the leader of the team. He will be alright. Young QBs have bad games, bad strings of games even. I'd rather have him than a lot of what passes for starting QBs out there.
As for the booing of Carr...he's the franchise QB for a team with expectations. He will be booed. Fans will always want the guy on the bench if the team isn't doing well. I grew up in Colorado and watched games at Mile High with Elway in the 80s. He was booed by fans in Denver when he struggled. It's part of being the leader of the team. He will be alright. Young QBs have bad games, bad strings of games even. I'd rather have him than a lot of what passes for starting QBs out there.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
thegr8fan said:
I knew your intention, just trying to add (and I think agree with the intent of the original post) that QB performance is to a degree relative to the team around them. Carr would definitely be the backup in Indy. IMO, Manning definitely wouldn't have won any MVP's behind our OL although I suspect we would have won a few more games.
I guess we just have a difference of opinion, just as McKinney and Billy Miller have a difference of opinion. From the Chronic:ArlingtonTexan said:
I have an opinion of where "the real problem is". Again, we had a small window into what Carr looks like with protection. With a RB that was struggling and a defense trying to find it's way, Carr led the team to a 4-3 record. So, I'm convinced that Carr can be a winning QB given average protection. I'm also convinced that, as it stands, this offensive can't give that to him.
virginiatexan
Practice Squad
thegr8fan said:if he were playing for the Colts he would be riding the pine bench and watching Manning take a defense apart.
Carr would be in by the the second quarter after Manning had been sacked hard three times and carried off the field because there was no blocking. I don't think Manning could take being sacked 76 times in a year like Carr did in his first. Manning is great no doubt but has a much better supporitng cast.
TexansTrueFan
All Pro
ArlingtonTexan said:
what ??? If manning had to he could take a nap back there, what he's only been sacked 6 times this seaosn, are you telling me its because he's so fast and illusive like M. Vick ???? No its cause the O-Line actually protects him. What carr does he does on the run, if he had all day like manning he'd pick defenses apart as well !
the wonger need food
All Pro
FILO_girl said:I said he was no Brett Favre. That is not hatin', it is a realistic look at this time. Didn't say he was bad, just not Brett. But then again, Brett is my fave player of all time so it will take someone mighty awesome to fit this description. David has the humility and family values, but needs more skills to get there. Brett needed more than 3 years to prove himself too.
Give David some reliable protection and we will see a more confident and stronger QB. Hard to be tough when you have to beat feet or eat turf all the time. We do have a very mobile QB but really we don't want to see HOW mobile SO often!
Is this what you were getting at Wonger?
Yes and no. I was just pointing out the fact that the guy is average right now. He's not great and he's not bad, he's average. Do I hope he becomes great... heck yeah. A lot of people don't want to hear that. If you don't believe he is the next Joe Montana then you hate him. There should be nothing wrong with criticizing players, if they are the "franchise" QB or 2nd string long snapper.
TexansTrueFan
All Pro
Carr is GONNA be a great Quarter Back !!!
shinerbock_girl
All Pro
TexansTrueFan said:
Enough said, as TexansTrueFan said it all...
chuckm
Veteran
Well let me preface this by saying that I'm a big Texan fan and a Carr fan. I've been to every home game in 3 years (except pre-season) and I wear a Carr jersey. My concern is that he's been pounded so much that he's finding it hard to make himself look downfield when he actually does get time. I can't blame him mind you. Maybe I'm off here but at times he checks down very quickly (maybe too quickly). Hopefully after a few games where he gets some time to actually set his feet then things will start clicking again...
ok so carr is an average quarterback in his third year with numbers comparable to some of the all time greats at the same point in their careers. He's an average QB in an absolutely AWFUL offensive system. starts with the O line obviously, they're terrible terrible terrible. The capers mantra of establishing the run cannot work with a line like that so it places added stress on the passing game. so a good coach rolls double coverage to AJ and allows Gaf and Bradford to do as they please. The problem with this is taht those two guys ARENT ANY GOOD. they're essentially castoffs from other teams. The redskins got rid of gaffney for gods sake. so a typical houston offensive possesion that didnt work was DD to the left for 1 DD to the left for 2 Carr sacked because the D end was in the pocket within 2 seconds. anyone wonder why the offense looked so good against the vikings int he second half?? they had to pass the ball because they were behind. i for one, am absolutely impressed with the numbers Carr put up this season all things considered. if the D had been able to contain Favre just ONCE int he 4th quarter the Texans would have been looking at 8-7 going into their final game, still alive in the playoffs, probably played with some passion ended up 9-7 and everyone here would be raving about how much the team has improved and how damn good the nucleus of the team is. i logged on because i figured everyone at this point would be hyping up the team for next season and predicting draft picks......but all i see is more bashing of one of its best players. he'll be here for a while keep it positive
S
SESupergenius
Guest
umm we drafted Gaffney, he's played with no one else, but I agree with your assessment.
TexaninKorea
Practice Squad
Carr is a stud. All he needs is an O line.
I swear some of the posters on here have been hanging out & doing some 'wacky weed' with Ricky Williams!
The comparison at the beginning of this thread should never have included Warren Moon - He was already a "pro" QB for several years before he came to the NFL. Nobody considered Kurt Warner a rookie coming from the Arena league....the CFL is a little tougher.
David Carr, at present, is not even close to any of these current QBs: (Note: this eval is O-Line independent)
Peyton Manning - Probably the finest "student of the game" in existence right now. He reads, reacts and calls plays at the line that Carr simply isn't capable of at this time.
Donovan McNabb - A QB that possesses superior size and physical strength. His scrambling ability is helped by the difficulty in bringing him down 1-on-1.
Brett Favre - Despite being "pick-prone" due to forcing the ball, can still take complete control of a game. Never gives up on the play, no matter how bad his protection has broken down. Probably the most dangerous QB (while scrambling) the NFL has ever seen.
The list goes on, but you should get the idea. Can Carr develop into a QB of this high caliber? Time will tell. Right now, his mechanics are still poor (sidearm motion), his ability to read NFL defenses still needs to mature (and speed up!), his pocket presence is below average (he doesn't seem to sense defenders...only impending doom), and he can't read progressions fast enough yet (still locking on too much). There's also the issue of some passes that have had more hang-time than a Chad Stanley punt, and others forced into double, triple & quadruple coverage!
Undoubtedly, the O-Line & injuries have greatly affected Carr's development in these areas. There have been times, however, that Carr has been the master of his own demise by scrambling out of an actual pocket and into oncoming defenders.
I too would like to see what David could do with a real OL, a "Complete" TE, and another "possession" WR. That said, he's got his own share of faults right now that need to be corrected before the whole team can improve. If you're not the Bucs or the Ravens from years past, your QB is still the most important cog in the machine, and the Texans are no different.
The comparison at the beginning of this thread should never have included Warren Moon - He was already a "pro" QB for several years before he came to the NFL. Nobody considered Kurt Warner a rookie coming from the Arena league....the CFL is a little tougher.
David Carr, at present, is not even close to any of these current QBs: (Note: this eval is O-Line independent)
Peyton Manning - Probably the finest "student of the game" in existence right now. He reads, reacts and calls plays at the line that Carr simply isn't capable of at this time.
Donovan McNabb - A QB that possesses superior size and physical strength. His scrambling ability is helped by the difficulty in bringing him down 1-on-1.
Brett Favre - Despite being "pick-prone" due to forcing the ball, can still take complete control of a game. Never gives up on the play, no matter how bad his protection has broken down. Probably the most dangerous QB (while scrambling) the NFL has ever seen.
The list goes on, but you should get the idea. Can Carr develop into a QB of this high caliber? Time will tell. Right now, his mechanics are still poor (sidearm motion), his ability to read NFL defenses still needs to mature (and speed up!), his pocket presence is below average (he doesn't seem to sense defenders...only impending doom), and he can't read progressions fast enough yet (still locking on too much). There's also the issue of some passes that have had more hang-time than a Chad Stanley punt, and others forced into double, triple & quadruple coverage!
Undoubtedly, the O-Line & injuries have greatly affected Carr's development in these areas. There have been times, however, that Carr has been the master of his own demise by scrambling out of an actual pocket and into oncoming defenders.
I too would like to see what David could do with a real OL, a "Complete" TE, and another "possession" WR. That said, he's got his own share of faults right now that need to be corrected before the whole team can improve. If you're not the Bucs or the Ravens from years past, your QB is still the most important cog in the machine, and the Texans are no different.
Well, that's quite a list.disaacks3 said:
And I think, if Carr really applies himself, he could be a totally changed QB by...lunch. Really, is there any aspect of the game where you think Carr is adequate? So, what should the Texans do to remedy this? Dump Carr? Bring in a new QB coach? Hold a candlelight vigil? What's your solution, or is this just another opportunity to bash?
BTW, your fav QB Farve throws from every arm slot imaginable. And doom did more than just impend this season. There's no doubt that Carr has had more opportunities to "sense defenders" than any other QB in the NFL. QB's don't play in a vacuum, you can't really evalute them without considering factors such as pass blocking. Your empirical evidence aside, there's objective evidence that if the Texans pass protection improves, many of the items on your list disappear.
Unbelievable, some of you guys are just ripping this guy apart. Oh he has happy feet, he is inconsistant, he will be an average NFL QB. Paaaahlease!
What do you want this guy to do? Oh, you want him to avoid two defensive lineman, who just blew by his RG and C, regain his composure, stand up tall in the pocket release a spiral downfield to his double covered reciever, without blinking cause that's what yall would do right! He makes mistakes yeah but he hardly loses the games. This kid is doing great and is doing what is asked of him by the coaches. He stayed injury free for the most part and didn't miss a game and for that his offesnisve lineman allows him to get sacked 49 times this year. Even Troy Aikamn didn't put of gaudy numbers his first three years, infact his numbers really look alot like Carr's number's over his first three years. check it out:
PASSING
Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
2002 Houston Texans 16 16 444 233 52.5 2592 5.84 81 9 15 76/411 31 5 62.8
2003 Houston Texans 12 11 295 167 56.6 2013 6.82 78 9 13 15/90 22 5 69.5
2004 Houston Texans 16 16 466 285 61.2 3531 7.58 69 16 14 49/301 47 6 83.5
TOTAL 44 43 1205 685 56.8 8136 6.75 81 34 42 140/802 100 16
Troy Aikman
PASSING
YEAR TEAM G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
1989 Dallas Cowboys 11 11 293 155 52.9 1749 6.0 75t 9 18 55.7
1990 Dallas Cowboys 15 15 399 226 56.6 2579 6.5 61t 11 18 66.6
1991 Dallas Cowboys 12 12 363 237 65.3 2754 7.6 61 11 10 86.7
There are plenty of Qb's that have played in the league with less talent than Carr that have made it to the Super Bowl. Dilfer, Dlehomme, Chris Chandler, Jeff Hostetler. And yall are saying Carr won't make it? C'mon now, why are yall even thinking Super Bowl in year three, this is a five year deal remember. By year 6 if he hasn't turned things around then yeah okay lets talk how inconsistant Carr is but give him a break...it's not like he is the second comming of Ryan Leaf!
What do you want this guy to do? Oh, you want him to avoid two defensive lineman, who just blew by his RG and C, regain his composure, stand up tall in the pocket release a spiral downfield to his double covered reciever, without blinking cause that's what yall would do right! He makes mistakes yeah but he hardly loses the games. This kid is doing great and is doing what is asked of him by the coaches. He stayed injury free for the most part and didn't miss a game and for that his offesnisve lineman allows him to get sacked 49 times this year. Even Troy Aikamn didn't put of gaudy numbers his first three years, infact his numbers really look alot like Carr's number's over his first three years. check it out:
PASSING
Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
2002 Houston Texans 16 16 444 233 52.5 2592 5.84 81 9 15 76/411 31 5 62.8
2003 Houston Texans 12 11 295 167 56.6 2013 6.82 78 9 13 15/90 22 5 69.5
2004 Houston Texans 16 16 466 285 61.2 3531 7.58 69 16 14 49/301 47 6 83.5
TOTAL 44 43 1205 685 56.8 8136 6.75 81 34 42 140/802 100 16
Troy Aikman
PASSING
YEAR TEAM G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
1989 Dallas Cowboys 11 11 293 155 52.9 1749 6.0 75t 9 18 55.7
1990 Dallas Cowboys 15 15 399 226 56.6 2579 6.5 61t 11 18 66.6
1991 Dallas Cowboys 12 12 363 237 65.3 2754 7.6 61 11 10 86.7
There are plenty of Qb's that have played in the league with less talent than Carr that have made it to the Super Bowl. Dilfer, Dlehomme, Chris Chandler, Jeff Hostetler. And yall are saying Carr won't make it? C'mon now, why are yall even thinking Super Bowl in year three, this is a five year deal remember. By year 6 if he hasn't turned things around then yeah okay lets talk how inconsistant Carr is but give him a break...it's not like he is the second comming of Ryan Leaf!
I stated his weaknesses at THIS TIME. Can you really put Carr on the level of any of those 3 QBs...no matter WHAT line he's behind?Lucky said:
Accurate criticism is only considered "bashing" by the ill-informed. Dispute my criticisms of the "current Carr", not the "Carr we'd like to have"...if you can.
BTW - I think Carr has exceptional arm strength and better than average running ability. For the intangibles - I think he's a really classy guy who truly wants to succeed for the fans here in Houston. Yep, I've got a real "hate on" for the guy....
El Tejano
Hall of Fame
I heard that Carr was shown on TV throwing his helmet and pointing blame at the offensive line. Again, just stuff I heard because I don't have any access to shows in Houston but I sure hope that didn't happen.
I agree that if things haven't turned around after year 5, we got to look elsewhere. I also wouldn't be too upset if we brought in another QB just to give him that feeling that his position is not his alone. This may bring the real player out of him.
I agree that if things haven't turned around after year 5, we got to look elsewhere. I also wouldn't be too upset if we brought in another QB just to give him that feeling that his position is not his alone. This may bring the real player out of him.
disaacks3 said:I swear some of the posters on here have been hanging out & doing some 'wacky weed' with Ricky Williams!
The comparison at the beginning of this thread should never have included Warren Moon - He was already a "pro" QB for several years before he came to the NFL. Nobody considered Kurt Warner a rookie coming from the Arena league....the CFL is a little tougher.
David Carr, at present, is not even close to any of these current QBs: (Note: this eval is O-Line independent)
Peyton Manning - Probably the finest "student of the game" in existence right now. He reads, reacts and calls plays at the line that Carr simply isn't capable of at this time.
Donovan McNabb - A QB that possesses superior size and physical strength. His scrambling ability is helped by the difficulty in bringing him down 1-on-1.
Brett Favre - Despite being "pick-prone" due to forcing the ball, can still take complete control of a game. Never gives up on the play, no matter how bad his protection has broken down. Probably the most dangerous QB (while scrambling) the NFL has ever seen.
The list goes on, but you should get the idea. Can Carr develop into a QB of this high caliber? Time will tell. Right now, his mechanics are still poor (sidearm motion), his ability to read NFL defenses still needs to mature (and speed up!), his pocket presence is below average (he doesn't seem to sense defenders...only impending doom), and he can't read progressions fast enough yet (still locking on too much). There's also the issue of some passes that have had more hang-time than a Chad Stanley punt, and others forced into double, triple & quadruple coverage!
Undoubtedly, the O-Line & injuries have greatly affected Carr's development in these areas. There have been times, however, that Carr has been the master of his own demise by scrambling out of an actual pocket and into oncoming defenders.
I too would like to see what David could do with a real OL, a "Complete" TE, and another "possession" WR. That said, he's got his own share of faults right now that need to be corrected before the whole team can improve. If you're not the Bucs or the Ravens from years past, your QB is still the most important cog in the machine, and the Texans are no different.
Thanks for this post. These are some the same things that i see in Carr with or without protection. I don't think that you or i hate Carr, but we don't see him in that TOP 5-10 elite category of QBs. Most of the posters here think if a guy is either sucks or is great when most QBs are somewhere in between. Carr is that middle ground with a bunch of guys. He does something well and other he does not. He needs more things around him than these guys do. The difference between these guys and the middle level guys is that they make the players (including O-lines).
TexansTrueFan
All Pro
some times you guys make it feel like the OILERS era all over again 
and we've only existed for 3 years !
and we've only existed for 3 years !
texan279
Hall of Fame
Thanks for helping me prove my point. David Carr put up better numbers in his 3rd year as a pro football QB than Warren Moon did in his 3rd year in the NFL AFTER he had experience in the CFL. I just compared year 1-3 numbers for several successful QB's to see how Carr is doing in copmarison. And how can you compare Carr now to McNabb, Favre, and Manning now? Favre has been in the league 14 years, Manning 7 years, and McNabb 6 years. Maybe if Carr didn't have to spend so much time running for his life, he would have a chance to show us a little more.
texan279 said:
Not too bad........ I wonder what Joey Harrinton's, Tim Couche's, & Trent Dilfer's numbers look like.
If this prooves we don't need another QB, can I do the same thing with DD to prove we don't need another RB??
TexansLucky13
53d Signal Batt
TEXANRED said:
Enough said.
Joey Harrington and David Carr, by the books, are almost identical. Harrington has more TDs (I believe) but not by much.
I foresee a strong year for Carr next year. I hope Kubiak is the magician everyone hopes he will be. Personally, I think he is showing his magic already.
TwinSisters
Veteran
TEXANRED said:
No. Mathis is the Batgirl.
the wonger need food
All Pro
mother-in-law said:
Dear Mrs. Lovelady, if your son played football in college and NFLE, every NFL team knows all about him. Here's the contact information Katy Copperheads... http://www.katyprofootball.com/index.php?page=contactus
It's amazing how many Carr threads we've gone thru on this board. His legacy will live on long after he has moved to NY to back up Eli Manning or San Francisco behind Alex Smith, or wherever he ends up.
This post from '05 started off by comparing Carr's first 3 years in the NFL to some other well known QB's and ended up with posts in '06 still talking about just the first 3 yrs, like year 4 was a mirage. Too, IMO there are a lot of disollutionist out there that think all Carr's problems are the result of bad circumstances around him and these will 'go away' when the circumstances do!! HELL-O. Bill Belichick has talked several times about all the 'obstacles' a team faces each year--injuries,poor play,turnovers,etc.--and makes the point that while each team faces these 'obstacles,' how they deal with them is the key. The Pats do not allow excuses under any circumstance. The Texans? We may not lead the NFL in many positive team categories but-if we are not first in making excuses--like Bum said, "it don't take long to call the roll."
Texans86
Rookie
tsip said:
Tom Brady had a little help from his offensive line. He also had a defense that wouldn't lose leads in the fourth quarter. If our defense had held up this season, this would be a different story for Carr. They let J.P. Losman score on them, and if I remember correctly, he didn't score again for like 2 or 3 weeks. He was bad, and we made him look good. Point of View makes a difference.
Texans86 said:
And we let Alex Smith score his only NFL touchdown his Rookie Season....
DominickDavisFan76
Waterboy
I hate bringing this up but.......He made Fitzpatrick look like a pro bowl QB who led his team when they were down by 21.