David Done In Houston? | Profootballtalk.com

[infantrycak]

Rings? Wins? Hey, you want comparisions to them? Using David Carr and Tom or Peyton in the same sentence in comparision is just plain dumb.

Good lord reading is evidently not fundamental. Did I in any way say Carr was as good or better than Manning or Brady?--no. This any use of one player's name in conjunction with another player's name has to mean they are in every way the same whine is just lame. Geez this is dumb--if I had used Holcomb and Brooks you would have come back and said so your happy having a QB like Holcomb or Brooks.

Funny thing is, I will give you that there is probably figures out there where David is beating both of them in 5-10 stats.. Heck, a few sack figures really come to mind. Heck, WE NEED TO KEEP CARR... HE has a stat he is beating Payton and Tom at. Lets not change ANYTHING. HE is winning in one stat... Man I feel better... Whoo Hooo... Why are we even talking here... Carr can do it..

One stat does not make a man. His play makes him. Quit making comparisions to Carr when his overall preformance ALL year cant even touch 1/4 of those you speak of.

What BS. You made a particular point on down field accuracy. A specific stat was pulled out on the one issue you were opining oh so strongly on. The natural test for whether Carr's down field accuracy is too poor to be a successful QB is the down field accuracy of irrefutably successful QB's. Evidently, that isn't what is holding his performance back.

 

[TemeculaMike]

Actually did any of use really fall for the david carr Hype i know i never did. David had one awsome season in college thats it. for a how do we say a mediocre football program. four years in to the david carr expiriment he still has funny mechanics very poor leadership on the field and the funniest side arm throw in the business. now im all for resigning him but first we dont give him the 8 million or even 5.5 and let him hit free agency and sign him for the league mininum wich should be enough for his talent. and we draft a QB it worked wonders for drew brees.

Last year, Drew Brees had an advantage that David Carr won't have - a well coached (Hudson Hauck) offensive line, a pro bowl tight end named Antonio Gates, and a kid that went to some school in Texas who plays running back ... I forget his name ... LC ... no ... LB ... no ... LT -- yep thats it.

David Carr will never fully realize his potential as an NFL QB as long as the Texans' offensive line remains the weak link.

Carr is at that point in his career where the game slows down. He has the experience which enables him read defenses and coverages faster. Unfortunately, the only thing that is coming at him faster than last year is the opposing teams defensive ends, outside linebackers, and blitzing safeties.

 

[Nighthawk]

I cant see this happening. Its more than money. Its more than the record.

David has been the face of this franchise for years. He wont be thrown out like trash. I know the NFL has no loyalties, but sometimes you have to stick with your guy. Build up around him, and then see what the problem is.

This isnt a Kyle Boller, who has a top notch Defense, with an established line, and pro bowl left tackle, and one of the best RB's in the game.

This is David Carr, with a 4 year old franchise, a struggling D, a musical chairs o line, and a good stable of backs.

Also, I have to mention the coaches. Brian Billick, is far more sucessful overall than our own Dom Capers.

Add all of this together, and you can see why we are 1-8.

Pay Carr his money, and get him a LT, G, and a better defense. And to top that off, a new head coach. You know, the kind that like to win. Take chances, and draw up better plays.

Please Take A Clue. He's the "face of the franchise" is silly PR stuff, especially when it's Carr and a new Texans franchise, as opposed to, say Favre and the Packers or something. We (Texans) have given Carr far more than he's worth already, and far more than he's given back to the team.

He DESERVES to be fired.

I'd prefer any of a half-dozen likely-to-be-available retreads at QB and a new coach on the sidelines and a new guy in the front office over Carr, who simply hasn't lived up to his billing.

 

[Nighthawk]

According to Keith, his projected Cap hit is much larger....at $7,256,160. He has base salaries of 5.25 and 6 million in addition to his bonus. This year his cap hit is nearly twice as large as the second highest paid Texan.


http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap2006.html

C'mon, folks, even the Carr apologists gotta admit that's crazy.

 

[Nighthawk]

For further proof, see the Gafney TD pass against Indy. He had time, looked off the defense, pump-faked and found an open Gaff for a TD over the middle.

That's one.

 

[Ibar_Harry]

Please Take A Clue. He's the "face of the franchise" is silly PR stuff, especially when it's Carr and a new Texans franchise, as opposed to, say Favre and the Packers or something. We (Texans) have given Carr far more than he's worth already, and far more than he's given back to the team.

He DESERVES to be fired.

I'd prefer any of a half-dozen likely-to-be-available retreads at QB and a new coach on the sidelines and a new guy in the front office over Carr, who simply hasn't lived up to his billing.

Again look at the difference in Bledsole at Dallas. Good Coach who knows how to protect. End result is a QB who everyone wanted to get rid of at Buffalo may get into the SB this year. When Bledsole has time he can kill you with his passes. He looks like any other QB and makes bad mistakes when rushed. It's really a simple game folks.

 

[Vinny]

Wo, wo wo wo wo wo wo wo!!!! What exactly has this team given Carr, other than being the teams tackling dummy?

Easy question to answer. $60 Million dollars and a smaller cap for the rest of the players for play that warrants 1/3 of that money.

 

[infantrycak]

Easy question to answer. $60 Million dollars

He hasn't lived up to his contract, but just to be more accurate, Carr hasn't been paid $60 mil--he had a contract that could have paid him up to $60 mil if all contingencies were met. If the 3 year option is exercised he will receive something over $25 mil of that potential. Thru the completion of this year he will have received $21.75 mil. Somewhere there are $13+ in contingencies which have not been met.

 

[Dime]

Easy question to answer. $60 Million dollars and a smaller cap for the rest of the players for play that warrants 1/3 of that money.

Originally Posted by Vinny
According to Keith, his projected Cap hit is much larger....at $7,256,160. He has base salaries of 5.25 and 6 million in addition to his bonus. This year his cap hit is nearly twice as large as the second highest paid Texan.


http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap2006.html

I have a idea.. Lets sign it into contracts that if the team goes worse then 4 and 12 in a season, then the following year, the players earn 1/2 thier salary. Rofl. The harder/better they play, the more thier pay.

 

[Dime]

I find it hard to believe that a guy who came to Houston to win has been given practically nothing to play with. The team stumbled upon DD by accident, and AJ is either great or *****. An issue that we have had since the first game in Texan's history that hasn't been addressed. As far as I'm concerned, the $60 mill that he's getting payed doens't come close to the
half-*** job McNair has done to give this guy a chance to succeed. That's like asking a guy to go hit a homer in the bottom of the 9th, and not letting him use a bat. You double that, and that's what Carr deserves for the joke that management has let this team become.

Honestly, as I have pointed to before, I think Carr would be MUCH better now if he had someone (mentor) brought in to start to learn from. Point being that Joey Harrington who was given a team too has not done much at all because he didnt have to EARN the start. Now, habiots have devolped and he doesnt have a QB of decent quality to tell him what he is doing wrong. Classic example in my oponion is going to happen in green bay. When Bret steps down, Arron, who has learned from greatness will be able to work better because of those lessons.

 

[texan0305]

man i hope he has like the drew brees effect, remember 2003? Brees looked awfull the next year he gets a stud tight end the running game is the best in the league and they have a decent offensive line. Thats why i think the texans should go after reggie bush it would open up alot for david carr and company, and then in the later rounds just sure up some offensive line help, the line is a few parts away from being decent. I think Hodgen will be a stable for years to come, pitts has done well, and mckinney if he returns is servicable so that leaves two spots on the line if we can upgrade on those two spots, and david has time to throw i think our receivers are good enough to make plays. IMO this offense is a couple of parts away from being the leagues best the talent isnt there now but like i said with the upcoming draft and free agency the team looks like in a good position to make some acquisitions into being competitive in 2006........ Carr with some help can lead this team he's a good qb but needs the parts.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Is Carr worth Pro Bowl money ...no . Ok fine the Texans ruined him that does not make them obligated to extend his contract if he has'nt performed up to it ... I wish I made 25 million buy the time I was 26 .


Don't kid yourself about the team . Carr is not part of the cure anytime soon so that makes him part of the problem . If its true about locking on and having the snap of a wet cracker then he'll never fullfil his physical capabilities . So again we should pay David cause he got his !#!$% kicked I think that would put us farther back . Carr needs to do a new contract or start packing .

 

[utahmark]

I am talking about ball placement. Go back and watch even the completed passes. On a dump off, it should either lead the reciever or hit him in the numbers when the RB is standing still. Again, under 10 yards, as I have said before, Carr is more accurate. But he still has quite a few bad placement issues even then. Most of the time, the reciever has to compensate for a poorly thrown ball. Dont believe me, just watch the tape and decide from what you see on where the ball was thrown to the reciever, and where it should have been thrown. It makes a difference big time.

Note: I am not asking for a Manning here folks, but I feel when you review it, you will see that the placement is off. Rushed or Not.

i do go back and watch the tapes. i thought maybe you were counting passes where he didnt go downfield as a poor pass. but apparantly your not. i you go back and count up what you think or good passes and what you think or bad passes. i think it will be diff (even for someone who has already made his mind up) to find 4 bad passes for every one good pass.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

What should be the percentage of passes thrown to the right place for a NFL QB ? I think maybe 75% . I include passes thrown away and passes thrown where the reciever is the only one who has a chance for a catch .

 

[infantrycak]

What should be the percentage of passes thrown to the right place for a NFL QB ? I think maybe 75% . I include passes thrown away and passes thrown where the reciever is the only one who has a chance for a catch .

Well, I am sure the question would vary greatly by distance of the throw, but overall 80+% is probably not a bad number. 60% completions is a pretty good NFL number. Most QB's are around 40% of their incompletions being caused by poor throws--Manning 45%, Bledsoe 38%, Leftwich 52%, Brady 40%, Carr 38%.* So at the end of a 30 attempt day with 18 completions fans should expect 2-3 of the 12 incompletions to be due to poorly thrown balls.

* Should be patently unnecessary, but evidently isn't disclaimer--the fact that Carr's name appears in a list with other QB's does not mean he is equal in all ways or any way other than for the info he is in the list for and maybe not that to the other QB's who are also in the list.

 

[Dime]

i do go back and watch the tapes. i thought maybe you were counting passes where he didnt go downfield as a poor pass. but apparantly your not. i you go back and count up what you think or good passes and what you think or bad passes. i think it will be diff (even for someone who has already made his mind up) to find 4 bad passes for every one good pass.

In addition, I also count bad passes when he throws extremely short on 3rd and longs as well. Dumping it off for 4-5 yards on a 3rd and 15 for example.

 

[Dime]

What should be the percentage of passes thrown to the right place for a NFL QB ? I think maybe 75% . I include passes thrown away and passes thrown where the reciever is the only one who has a chance for a catch .

60% is very good, but you have to concern yourself if the 60%, or 50% or less for that matter are benefical or not. I have seen completions thrown backward, and the player lose 7 yards. While that is a completion, and shows positive on completed passes, it just dont tell the whole story by looking at that stat. On the other side, there are plays like (as I have said a few times today, last time promise) a dump off to a RB on 3rd down and such who has NO chance to get a firstdown. I wish there was someone who tracks information like that. It would give more insite to QB's that are on the field and thier face - value to a team.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

60% is very good, but you have to concern yourself if the 60%, or 50% or less for that matter are benefical or not. I have seen completions thrown backward, and the player lose 7 yards. While that is a completion, and shows positive on completed passes, it just dont tell the whole story by looking at that stat. On the other side, there are plays like (as I have said a few times today, last time promise) a dump off to a RB on 3rd down and such who has NO chance to get a firstdown. I wish there was someone who tracks information like that. It would give more insite to QB's that are on the field and thier face - value to a team.

Not sure if my avatar was a complete or incomplete backwards pass

 

[infantrycak]

In addition, I also count bad passes when he throws extremely short on 3rd and longs as well. Dumping it off for 4-5 yards on a 3rd and 15 for example.

That is at least partially on the coaches. What that reception shows is the coaches schemed the play for the RB to release rather than stay in and block and told the QB to progress through 1 or 2 receivers and then dump to the RB. Without knowing the coverage on the receivers in the progression, there is no way to conclude a dump to the RB is a bad choice.

Sure would help clarity also if folks would use separate terms such as poor throw or bad choice instead of lumping everything into one bad pass category.

 

[mean mark8]

That is at least partially on the coaches. What that reception shows is the coaches schemed the play for the RB to release rather than stay in and block and told the QB to progress through 1 or 2 receivers and then dump to the RB. Without knowing the coverage on the receivers in the progression, there is no way to conclude a dump to the RB is a bad choice.

I understand what you're saying about the coaches drilling Carr to throw the ball at all costs in 2.5 seconds but isn't the decision still Carr's? I mean if he has longer protection, can't he decide to hold the ball until someone gets open deeper and still have the RB as a dump-off if pressure does get close? The QB is your field general and I would hope that the coaches would want him to keep looking downfield if he has time. I know this may be a giant leap of faith since he did get chewed out by the OC and a defensive lineman for making a perfect throw to Bradford. I would also hope that if the reason Carr is dumping the ball off too early is because he is being forced to do so by the coaches, he's arguing like all get-out in practice this week to let him hold it longer if the protection is there. Of course, you know I'm all for giving Ragone a shot to see if he can find deeper routes in the 2.5 seconds.

Just out of curiosity, in your review of the game video tape, how many times did you see Carr get knocked to the ground after one of his dump-off passes? IMO, a true NFL QB would be getting hit on at least 75% of his drop-off passes because they should be the receiver of last resort. Again, I know it may be the coaches' drilling, but the information would be interesting.

 

[infantrycak]

I understand what you're saying about the coaches drilling Carr to throw the ball at all costs in 2.5 seconds but isn't the decision still Carr's?

Normally I would say holding the ball is mainly a QB decision, but the Texans aren't normal right now. They have horns at practice, Pendry is jumping Carr for sacks if he holds the ball, the media and fans are as well. The whole offense is geared to get the ball out of the QB's hands and in the end his job is to do what the coach says (I personally would respect Carr more if I saw a little more fight against the system). With the pass protection issues the Texans have, they wouldn't have Wells and the other backs releasing if they didn't want Carr dumping--they would leave one or both in for pass protection. Frankly it is very Caperish game management--take the 4 safe yards and see if the back can do something rather than hold the ball and risk an 8 yd loss--field position is king.

Just out of curiosity, in your review of the game video tape, how many times did you see Carr get knocked to the ground after one of his dump-off passes?

I haven't separately broken that out but I have tried to note if the pass protection was breaking down as the ball is released so folks can make that kind of assessment.

 

[Dime]

That is at least partially on the coaches. What that reception shows is the coaches schemed the play for the RB to release rather than stay in and block and told the QB to progress through 1 or 2 receivers and then dump to the RB. Without knowing the coverage on the receivers in the progression, there is no way to conclude a dump to the RB is a bad choice.

Sure would help clarity also if folks would use separate terms such as poor throw or bad choice instead of lumping everything into one bad pass category.

Sorry folks, maybe I could be more clear.
For me, a bad pass is just that. A pass thrown that does not either get the job done, Poorly placed, or a bad decision. They all result in the same sad result. A turnover be it by interception or punt.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I consider AJ a better player than Carr . So I would not compare him to a Chicken also I think Gaffney is at least as good as Carr and the coaches have not done him justice either .

 

[Vinny]

Pardon me. AJ is a bloody good WR. He just has a problem consistently catching the easy ones that right in his gut. Gaffney puzzles me, because when he does catch the ball, he looks good. Other times it seems he's lost. I will watch carefully Sun. at both WRs.

You have admittedly only watched a couple of games....please tell me how you came to these conclusions if you would be so kind.

 

[Vinny]

I work for a CBS station, and I can get videos sometimes of the games sent to me from a buddy in NY, where they record them...I get hooked up. I saw the JAX, both IND, BUFF, and SEA. These are the games I have seen, not every game.

The last time we were on national TV you posted that this was your first chance to see a Texans game since the last time we were on National TV. I just figured that story was the right story.

 

[SESupergenius]

next witness.

 

[eriadoc]

LOL Ses! That avatar is too funny!

 

[bigcarlos]

We need Vince

 

[DocBar]

Here's an idea....let's see how "versatile" Casserly is(finding another job) and get a GM in that can evaluate talent and quit trying to look like a genius for finding idamonds hwere other people see turds. Other than that, give Carr the ball nad the freedom to call whatever he feels like at the LOS. I say thake the 5.5 option and do whatever it takes to get a decent oline next year. If that fails, let's see what Ragone can do

 

[royce1054]

I believe they will prob restructure Carr's deal so that he wont be due a huge roster bonus. I serious believe he will be back. If they cant restructure the deal i believe he will become a free agent. Might be Ragone's or another FA's time to shine. We need to spend more money on our O-line and get someone who can protect our QB no matter who it is

 

[utahmark]

In addition, I also count bad passes when he throws extremely short on 3rd and longs as well. Dumping it off for 4-5 yards on a 3rd and 15 for example.

i went back and watched some of the game and your 4 bad to 1 good theory is wrong. just glancing through a couple of series mainly looking at pitts i noticed around 8 passes right on the money. i didnt watch the whole game but just going with those 8 he would need 32 bad passes to make your formula correct.

 

[Dime]

i went back and watched some of the game and your 4 bad to 1 good theory is wrong. just glancing through a couple of series mainly looking at pitts i noticed around 8 passes right on the money. i didnt watch the whole game but just going with those 8 he would need 32 bad passes to make your formula correct.

So on these 8 passes which make my formula totally wrong. They were all right on the money huh. Eight back to back completions, and all of them working together with runs got first downs. He was 16 of 25 the last game (which I am guessing you are talking about) so that means he had 8 straight completions and the other remaining 8 had 9 incompletions in between them. It is strange on last game i could not find 8 completions in a row. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20051113_HOU@IND
Very weird.. You must be meaning every pass that he had thrown was on target hitting the reciever either in the hands or leading the reciever correctly. If that is the case, the I wonder why we were even running it if he was that accurate. He did have a passing touchdown. But lets look at the drives... BTW- Sadly, I dont have tape of the last game, but this will tell the story a bit.

Houston Texans at 12:43

3-12-HOU29 (10:07) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to V.Morency to HST 36 for 7 yards (J.David).

David's first throw of the game, at 3 and 12 he drops it to Morency who is short of the first down line. - My book - Bad pass because he didnt get it to a reciever over the first down line. Both Morency and Carrs fault. Morency for standing in wrong spot, Carrs for dropping it to him. Punted.

1-10-HOU26 (4:24) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson pushed ob at HST 34 for 8 yards (B.Sanders).
PENALTY on IND-B.Sanders, Taunting, 15 yards, enforced at HST 34.
1-10-HOU49 (4:03) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
3-5-IND46 (3:14) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
4-5-IND46 (3:08) C.Stanley punts 32 yards to IND 14, Center-B.Pittman, fair catch by T.Walters.

One good pass with a help of a penalty, 2 drops, a punt again

2-8-HOU34 (10:30) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
3-8-HOU34 (10:25) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.
4-8-HOU34 (10:20) C.Stanley punts 44 yards to IND 22, Center-B.Pittman. T.Walters to IND 29 for 7 yards (R.Walker).

Next series... same without a good pass.

1-10-IND34 (2:55) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson to IND 20 for 14 yards (G.Brackett).
1-10-IND20 (2:19) D.Carr pass to J.Wells to IND 14 for 6 yards (J.David, M.Jackson).

With the help of a muffed punt, Carr pulls out a good pass and a drop off pass.. we will count it good too since it helped to make a TD with Wells TD RUN.

1-10-HOU31 (1:05) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to V.Morency (D.Freeney).
1-10-HOU40 (14:54) D.Carr pass to M.Rivers to HST 44 for 4 yards (G.Brackett, C.June).
3-3-IND42 (11:38) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson pushed ob at IND 34 for 8 yards (N.Harper).
1-10-IND34 (11:14) D.Carr sacked at IND 34 for 0 yards (M.Reagor, C.June).
2-10-IND34 (10:33) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson to IND 22 for 12 yards (N.Harper).
3-1-IND13 (8:32) D.Carr pass to J.Gaffney for 13 yards, TOUCHDOWN

Hmmm.. Got a saving grace by a indy Penalty on a 4th down. 4 passes caught with a TD. Only one hit the dirt this time.


2-10-HOU27 (5:10) D.Carr pass to M.Rivers to HST 29 for 2 yards (C.June).
3-8-HOU29 (4:24) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
4-8-HOU29 (4:18) C.Stanley punts 31 yards to IND 40, Center-B.Pittman.
1-10-IND30 (4:05) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.
2-10-IND30 (4:04) D.Carr pass to J.Gaffney to IND 14 for 16 yards (J.David, C.June).
2-11-IND15 (2:41) D.Carr to IND 12 for 3 yards (C.June, M.Reagor).
3-8-IND12 (1:59) D.Carr pass to V.Morency to IND 6 for 6 yards (M.Doss, M.Jackson).

Again, We are saved here with another muffed punt from indy. A 2nd and 10 for 2 yards.. sound like a dump off, but i cant see it so I cant tell. We will call it good. Another dumpoff at 1:59 with only 1 pass hitting a WR.

1-10-HOU34 (11:23) D.Carr pass to J.Wells to HST 40 for 6 yards (C.June).
3-1-HOU43 (10:06) D.Carr pass to D.Armstrong to IND 44 for 13 yards (J.David).
2-7-IND41 (8:46) D.Carr pass to D.Armstrong to IND 29 for 12 yards (J.David).
1-10-IND29 (8:21) D.Carr sacked at IND 33 for -4 yards (L.Tripplett).
2-14-IND33 (7:47) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.
3-14-IND33 (7:42) (Shotgun) D.Carr to IND 27 for 6 yards (G.Brackett).
4-8-IND27 (7:11) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.

Start with a dump off , then a good pass times 2, then more dirt hitting.

2-7-HOU21 (4:30) (Shotgun) D.Carr sacked at HST 13 for -8 yards (D.Freeney). Penalty on HST-M.Brown, Offensive Holding, declined.
3-15-HOU13 (4:24) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to J.Wells ran ob at HST 18 for 5 yards (M.Reagor).

Another dump off. Are you seeing a trend here... 3 and 15, and you dump it to 5 yards.

Dump offs are only good IF they help lead to a first down. I am guessing here since I didnt get video of the last game but almost 50% of Carr's completed passes were dumpoffs. Of those 7 dump offs, 4 of them did not lead to first downs in that series. Meaning 3 of them were benefitical. That means of the 16 completed passes to me, 12 of 25 were good passes, and that is even before I look at ball placement.

Tell ya what. So this is totally fair.. I will record and using my oponion on the next game, list the good and the bad throws and see if i am just totally wrong (which I have no beef saying if I am), or a bit closer to the truth then some of you would like to admit.

 

[Dime]

BTW folks..

I am not trying to troll trash Carr here. I trying to speak about what we all are concerned about here. Is Carr performance worth 8+ million next year based on his performance this year (his progression on year 4). With 16 pass and catches last game, and almost 50% of those were check downs, and 3 sacks (granted, sacks not all his fault, but some what) does he deserve the 8+ million bonus next year and have the vision to become a great QB for us. Thats what I am trying to decide for me. A concerned fan.

 

[infantrycak]

Dump offs are only good IF they help lead to a first down. I am guessing here since I didnt get video of the last game but almost 50% of Carr's completed passes were dumpoffs. Of those 7 dump offs, 4 of them did not lead to first downs in that series. Meaning 3 of them were benefitical. That means of the 16 completed passes to me, 12 of 25 were good passes, and that is even before I look at ball placement.

Tell ya what. So this is totally fair.. I will record and using my oponion on the next game, list the good and the bad throws and see if i am just totally wrong (which I have no beef saying if I am), or a bit closer to the truth then some of you would like to admit.

Well looking at the broadcast will let you judge ball placement, but it really isn't going to let you judge whether a dump off was a wise decision most of the time. The camera stays on the QB until release and generally doesn't show down field much until the ball is in the air so you can't tell the coverage as the QB makes his reads--and that is important and difficult as well. Vinny has been trying to convince the Texans to make coaches game tape available, but without luck so far.

 

[Dime]

Well looking at the broadcast will let you judge ball placement, but it really isn't going to let you judge whether a dump off was a wise decision most of the time. The camera stays on the QB until release and generally doesn't show down field much until the ball is in the air so you can't tell the coverage as the QB makes his reads--and that is important and difficult as well. Vinny has been trying to convince the Texans to make coaches game tape available, but without luck so far.

For me, a dump off on 1st or 2nd down can be benefitical when it gives the offense a help to get to 3rd and 3 or less. On third down, a dump off is only acceptable if you are trying to give the punter room to punt back in your goal or for a first down. Throwing a dump off on a 3rd and 15 is just mortifying unless there isnt a guy for 10 yards on him. I would feel much better if he held it till the last few seconds and then threw it away (to make sure it wasnt interceptable, but he kept it as long has he can to hopefully get a guy open). I can see a few dump offs in a game, but with almost 50% of them being dump offs, and over 1/2 of those didnt work at all for the first, just isnt what i like to see.

 

[infantrycak]

I would feel much better if he held it till the last few seconds and then threw it away (to make sure it wasnt interceptable, but he kept it as long has he can to hopefully get a guy open). I can see a few dump offs in a game, but with almost 50% of them being dump offs, and over 1/2 of those didnt work at all for the first, just isnt what i like to see.

I can certainly see that view point and if the protection is holding up I would rather see him hold the ball and let something develop as well, BUT if I had to take a bet on what Pendry/Capers are telling Carr it is go thru the designed reads and then dump. Here is a classic Capers stat for you as well. In his career here DD has caught 17 receptions on 3rd and more than 11 yds (so Capers would say it really doesn't happenn all that often) and on 5 of those DD has gotten 1st downs with his average gain being almost 10 yds, so almost one third of the time it is successful, protects field position and protects the QB. Now if there is an open receiver in the progression it is all on Carr, but if not I'd bet it is a Pendry/Capers call.

 

[utahmark]

So on these 8 passes which make my formula totally wrong. They were all right on the money huh. Eight back to back completions, and all of them working together with runs got first downs. He was 16 of 25 the last game (which I am guessing you are talking about) so that means he had 8 straight completions and the other remaining 8 had 9 incompletions in between them. It is strange on last game i could not find 8 completions in a row. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20051113_HOU@IND
Very weird.. You must be meaning every pass that he had thrown was on target hitting the reciever either in the hands or leading the reciever correctly. If that is the case, the I wonder why we were even running it if he was that accurate. He did have a passing touchdown. But lets look at the drives... BTW- Sadly, I dont have tape of the last game, but this will tell the story a bit.

Houston Texans at 12:43

3-12-HOU29 (10:07) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to V.Morency to HST 36 for 7 yards (J.David).

David's first throw of the game, at 3 and 12 he drops it to Morency who is short of the first down line. - My book - Bad pass because he didnt get it to a reciever over the first down line. Both Morency and Carrs fault. Morency for standing in wrong spot, Carrs for dropping it to him. Punted.

1-10-HOU26 (4:24) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson pushed ob at HST 34 for 8 yards (B.Sanders).
PENALTY on IND-B.Sanders, Taunting, 15 yards, enforced at HST 34.
1-10-HOU49 (4:03) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
3-5-IND46 (3:14) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
4-5-IND46 (3:08) C.Stanley punts 32 yards to IND 14, Center-B.Pittman, fair catch by T.Walters.

One good pass with a help of a penalty, 2 drops, a punt again

2-8-HOU34 (10:30) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
3-8-HOU34 (10:25) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.
4-8-HOU34 (10:20) C.Stanley punts 44 yards to IND 22, Center-B.Pittman. T.Walters to IND 29 for 7 yards (R.Walker).

Next series... same without a good pass.

1-10-IND34 (2:55) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson to IND 20 for 14 yards (G.Brackett).
1-10-IND20 (2:19) D.Carr pass to J.Wells to IND 14 for 6 yards (J.David, M.Jackson).

With the help of a muffed punt, Carr pulls out a good pass and a drop off pass.. we will count it good too since it helped to make a TD with Wells TD RUN.

1-10-HOU31 (1:05) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to V.Morency (D.Freeney).
1-10-HOU40 (14:54) D.Carr pass to M.Rivers to HST 44 for 4 yards (G.Brackett, C.June).
3-3-IND42 (11:38) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson pushed ob at IND 34 for 8 yards (N.Harper).
1-10-IND34 (11:14) D.Carr sacked at IND 34 for 0 yards (M.Reagor, C.June).
2-10-IND34 (10:33) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson to IND 22 for 12 yards (N.Harper).
3-1-IND13 (8:32) D.Carr pass to J.Gaffney for 13 yards, TOUCHDOWN

Hmmm.. Got a saving grace by a indy Penalty on a 4th down. 4 passes caught with a TD. Only one hit the dirt this time.


2-10-HOU27 (5:10) D.Carr pass to M.Rivers to HST 29 for 2 yards (C.June).
3-8-HOU29 (4:24) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
4-8-HOU29 (4:18) C.Stanley punts 31 yards to IND 40, Center-B.Pittman.
1-10-IND30 (4:05) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.
2-10-IND30 (4:04) D.Carr pass to J.Gaffney to IND 14 for 16 yards (J.David, C.June).
2-11-IND15 (2:41) D.Carr to IND 12 for 3 yards (C.June, M.Reagor).
3-8-IND12 (1:59) D.Carr pass to V.Morency to IND 6 for 6 yards (M.Doss, M.Jackson).

Again, We are saved here with another muffed punt from indy. A 2nd and 10 for 2 yards.. sound like a dump off, but i cant see it so I cant tell. We will call it good. Another dumpoff at 1:59 with only 1 pass hitting a WR.

1-10-HOU34 (11:23) D.Carr pass to J.Wells to HST 40 for 6 yards (C.June).
3-1-HOU43 (10:06) D.Carr pass to D.Armstrong to IND 44 for 13 yards (J.David).
2-7-IND41 (8:46) D.Carr pass to D.Armstrong to IND 29 for 12 yards (J.David).
1-10-IND29 (8:21) D.Carr sacked at IND 33 for -4 yards (L.Tripplett).
2-14-IND33 (7:47) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.
3-14-IND33 (7:42) (Shotgun) D.Carr to IND 27 for 6 yards (G.Brackett).
4-8-IND27 (7:11) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.

Start with a dump off , then a good pass times 2, then more dirt hitting.

2-7-HOU21 (4:30) (Shotgun) D.Carr sacked at HST 13 for -8 yards (D.Freeney). Penalty on HST-M.Brown, Offensive Holding, declined.
3-15-HOU13 (4:24) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to J.Wells ran ob at HST 18 for 5 yards (M.Reagor).

Another dump off. Are you seeing a trend here... 3 and 15, and you dump it to 5 yards.

Dump offs are only good IF they help lead to a first down. I am guessing here since I didnt get video of the last game but almost 50% of Carr's completed passes were dumpoffs. Of those 7 dump offs, 4 of them did not lead to first downs in that series. Meaning 3 of them were benefitical. That means of the 16 completed passes to me, 12 of 25 were good passes, and that is even before I look at ball placement.

Tell ya what. So this is totally fair.. I will record and using my oponion on the next game, list the good and the bad throws and see if i am just totally wrong (which I have no beef saying if I am), or a bit closer to the truth then some of you would like to admit.

maybe you should read my post more slowly. no one ever said those completions were in a row. i said i saw around 8 good passes in watching just part of the game.

you dont have tape of the game and your telling me how many good passes he had. arent you the one that told me i needed to go back and watch the game before coming to a conclusion. dude! heed your own advice.

 

[utahmark]

I am talking about ball placement. Go back and watch even the completed passes. On a dump off, it should either lead the reciever or hit him in the numbers when the RB is standing still. Again, under 10 yards, as I have said before, Carr is more accurate. But he still has quite a few bad placement issues even then. Most of the time, the reciever has to compensate for a poorly thrown ball. Dont believe me, just watch the tape and decide from what you see on where the ball was thrown to the reciever, and where it should have been thrown. It makes a difference big time.

Note: I am not asking for a Manning here folks, but I feel when you review it, you will see that the placement is off. Rushed or Not.

it looks like you are changing the rules to your formula. in this post your said your just talking about ball placement. now your saying if he dumps the ball off at the wrong time its a bad pass.

either way carr doesnt throw 4 bad passes to one good one. you were exagerating a bit and i was just trying to make you be a little more realistic. carr complets over 60% of his passes. even if 10% of his completions or bad passes thats a 1 to 1 ratio. no where near the 4 to 1 you said.

 

[BigBull17]

For me, a dump off on 1st or 2nd down can be benefitical when it gives the offense a help to get to 3rd and 3 or less. On third down, a dump off is only acceptable if you are trying to give the punter room to punt back in your goal or for a first down. Throwing a dump off on a 3rd and 15 is just mortifying unless there isnt a guy for 10 yards on him. I would feel much better if he held it till the last few seconds and then threw it away (to make sure it wasnt interceptable, but he kept it as long has he can to hopefully get a guy open). I can see a few dump offs in a game, but with almost 50% of them being dump offs, and over 1/2 of those didnt work at all for the first, just isnt what i like to see.

You dump it off on third down to live to punt. You dont forcce passes into coverage to try and get the first. On fourth down yeah you have nothing to lose but on third and long you dump it off to a back when nothing is open and live to punt anouther day.

 

[Dime]

it looks like you are changing the rules to your formula. in this post your said your just talking about ball placement. now your saying if he dumps the ball off at the wrong time its a bad pass.

either way carr doesnt throw 4 bad passes to one good one. you were exagerating a bit and i was just trying to make you be a little more realistic. carr complets over 60% of his passes. even if 10% of his completions or bad passes thats a 1 to 1 ratio. no where near the 4 to 1 you said.

hehe... you folks are funny. I try to explain to you what I meant in the last few posts and it passes right over your head. Wow.. he is 60% completion ratio for his passes, funny thing is.. so are other QB's. Problem is, for those who still believe Carr is the answer, we are 8 and 1 folks, and all the blame does not fall at the coaches feet.

 

[TEXANRED]

BTW folks..

I am not trying to troll trash Carr here. I trying to speak about what we all are concerned about here. Is Carr performance worth 8+ million next year based on his performance this year (his progression on year 4). With 16 pass and catches last game, and almost 50% of those were check downs, and 3 sacks (granted, sacks not all his fault, but some what) does he deserve the 8+ million bonus next year and have the vision to become a great QB for us. Thats what I am trying to decide for me. A concerned fan.

I am one of the biggest Carr fans around but not even I could say yes to that question. Even though the line is bad, the D is bad, the coaching is bad and the system is bad, I still haven't seen anything from Carr other than potential. And potential for anything other than a rookie first round isn't worth 8 million.

That does hurt me to say that.

 

[johnboy]

You dump it off on third down to live to punt. You dont forcce passes into coverage to try and get the first. On fourth down yeah you have nothing to lose but on third and long you dump it off to a back when nothing is open and live to punt anouther day.

If nobody is open thats the problem,(are other people open) in the two years that I have been watching the texans I do not think I ever saw a receiver wide open they are always covered you would think the other team would sometime blow the covage on the texans receivers.Either it does not happen or Carr does not is them.???????

 

[Vinny]

If nobody is open thats the problem,(are other people open) in the two years that I have been watching the texans I do not think I ever saw a receiver wide open they are always covered you would think the other team would sometime blow the covage on the texans receivers.Either it does not happen or Carr does not is them.???????

When AJ went down Gaffney catches 9 passes in one game. If he can get open vs the CB1 then why would we assume he can't get open vs the CB2 or a Safety in the slot? Gaffney can't throw the ball to himself and right now I think he is just as much a victim of his talent around him as anyone in this offense, but people always point to him as one of Carr's excuses as to why he doesn’t spread the ball around. So far in this offense with Carr leading it...First read - you get the ball. Last read - you get the ball. Players in the middle? tough luck

 

[utahmark]

hehe... you folks are funny. I try to explain to you what I meant in the last few posts and it passes right over your head. Wow.. he is 60% completion ratio for his passes, funny thing is.. so are other QB's. Problem is, for those who still believe Carr is the answer, we are 8 and 1 folks, and all the blame does not fall at the coaches feet.

i wasnt arguing whether or not carr is the answer. i could'nt see where you got that 4 to 1 stuff from. you are now just changing the subject.

im not sure carr is the answer. if he keeps getting more time to throw like he has been the last couple of games we can start to find out though. till then i dont think we have enough info.

 

[real]

Does anyone think that we whould just let Carr be a FA...An if so who would you like to see at QB? I would like to pick up john kitna whether we keep Carr or not...Just a QB that we know can come in and operate a team..

 

[Texas_Thrill]

Maybe Brian Billick can make Carr work like he did Boller.

 

[NeViKaN]

You can't pay the guy millions just because he is "the face of the franchise". If our front office makes moves like that, we will be in cap hell pretty quick.

Hmmm cut off your nose to spite your face???

My question is can he choose not to take the bonus? If I was him I would skip out of town and look to Miami or Balt (both good defense and good line). I truely believe that he would show all you Carr haters how wrong you are. When he finaly got decent protection in Jacs. he looked realy good. And I have watched the replay. YES JOHNSON came open put not till after the ball was thrown. And Bradford should have made the catch regardless of how open Johnson was. And finaly Johnson dropped the last pass thrown to him, and yes he was wide open then.
I guess that it does not matter. This is a topic that will go round and round
:brickwall

 

[Bobo]

Wow. Could be a total house cleaning from top to bottom.

I doubt that. This is basically the same team that won seven games last year. It hasn't changed much since then.

 

[HJam72]

I doubt that. This is basically the same team that won seven games last year. It hasn't changed much since then.

Actually, I think it's changed a lot. It's been coached into oblivion. Even Johnson and Robinson are looking average instead of studley. Well, OK Robinson can still knock people's heads off, but he's not doing quite as well in coverage lately IMO.

 

[HoustonFan]

I would hate for Carr to become free agent, and go elsewhere and do well. This could very well happen.