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State of the O-line

leebigeztx said:
I'm saying most of the top 5 online was from development. Duane Brown was the only 1st rd player. Everyone else were 3rd or later and developed. This coaching staff have failed to develop any ol or rbs for that matter. The Texans got more out of DD,Slaton, and Foster than any rb under OBrien.
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Ah ok. It could also be talent evaluation at lower rounds, of a combination of both evaluation and coaching
 
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ObsiWan said:
I agree. Your response also shows that good position coaching is the best investment you can make. Can make meh talent good and make good talent even better.
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You left out the "no/poor talent/brains" scenario.:foottap:

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We kept 8 OL'men, 4 tackles and only 2 guards. Mancz will be our lone interior backup lineman, backing up at both guard and center. We'll undoubtedly have someone on the PS to call up as needed.
 
Number19 said:
We kept 8 OL'men, 4 tackles and only 2 guards. Mancz will be our lone interior backup lineman, backing up at both guard and center. We'll undoubtedly have someone on the PS to call up as needed.
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Yep. Probably Fuller or DQ if he still has time. But Rankin can also kick inside and Kelemete/Fulton can play all 3 interior positions as well.
 
TheRealJoker said:
Yep. Probably Fuller or DQ if he still has time. But Rankin can also kick inside and Kelemete/Fulton can play all 3 interior positions as well.
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I think Kelemete may have also played some OT over in NOLA, but he is basically an interior Olineman.
 
ObsiWan said:
The new Hive Mind thinking of O'Brien/Gaine is supposed to eliminate that option
:D
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We will see

I think they need a full compliment of draft picks before we can even begin to judge.

BTW, Gibbs couldn't have made last yrs OL avg. Of course those OL wouldn't have been on any team Gibbs was coaching.
 
steelbtexan said:
We will see

I think they need a full compliment of draft picks before we can even begin to judge.

BTW, Gibbs couldn't have made last yrs OL avg. Of course those OL wouldn't have been on any team Gibbs was coaching.
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Your contradictions are quite epic.
 
Scooter said:
Your contradictions are quite epic.
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Why? IMHO nobody could've made last yrs OL competent. Idont care about where they were drafted or FA pickups. Sure enough none of them are playing in the NFL. (Maybe Allen is I haven't checked.) That speaks very loudly about the talent level on last yrs OL.

I also want to give the new GM all of the resources he needs to fill the holes that still exist.

I dont see anything contradictory about my position when it comes to the Texans or the OL in particular.
 
Your contradiction is coaching. Gibbs was here for 2 years and his big draft pick was the 8th offensive tackle in the draft. Kubiak was already turning guys like Winston and Briseil into players, and wouldn't have needed Brown if not for a fluke injury to Spencer. Gibbs wasn't here for Myers or Smith or Jones or Brooks. The contradiction is ... why haven't our coaches selected competent players or coached up decent talent?
 
steelbtexan said:
We will see

I think they need a full compliment of draft picks before we can even begin to judge.

BTW, Gibbs couldn't have made last yrs OL avg. Of course those OL wouldn't have been on any team Gibbs was coaching.
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One of the most important things about coaching in the nfl is scheme and scheme fit. When Gibbs coached in Denver and in Houston, guess who coached the backs? Yes, Gibbs. The 1st thing BOB did coming from college was what? We want to get bigger on the line. So he wanted his ol to be bigger in weight. BIG doesn't spell MAN. Nobody is blowing guys off the ball. It's about movement and guys staying on blocks. So you're right, Gibbs probably couldn't have made this line a miracle line, but that's better than what they are now. Brown would still hold down the left side. The guy from KC was a zbs under Reid and would be fine. In the nfl , all 5 ol aren't gonna be all pro. They are a collective unit that function together. Under O'Brien can you name a guy who has gotten better every yr on the offense beside Hopkins?
 
Scooter said:
Your contradiction is coaching. Gibbs was here for 2 years and his big draft pick was the 8th offensive tackle in the draft. Kubiak was already turning guys like Winston and Briseil into players, and wouldn't have needed Brown if not for a fluke injury to Spencer. Gibbs wasn't here for Myers or Smith or Jones or Brooks. The contradiction is ... why haven't our coaches selected competent players or coached up decent talent?
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With Kubiak here before Gibbs the OL sucked.

After Gibbs came and was given cart blanche over the OL/Run game coordinator the OL improved because of Gibbs personally scouting DB and the Colorado connection between Kubiak/Gibbs with Myers/Briesel. You think it was happenstance that when Gibbs got here the run game improved? Kubiak/Gibbs/Smith were all on the same page as Gibbs was the father of the ZBS and Kubiak/Smith learned from him.

BOB/Smith/Devlin have never been on the same page ever, which leads to XSF over Jimmy G type picks. Smith didn't have a clue as to the kind of OL BOB/Devlin want. Gaine does and the FA/Rankins pick should tell you what they are looking for even though I disagree with how they went about rebuilding the OL.

Can you see the difference in the type of OL Gaine/BOB/Devlin have acquired compared to Smith/BOB/Devlin?

In short to answer your question, Because the coaches weren't picking the players and the GM came from a different system than the HC/OLcoach came from. # receipe for the disaster of an OL from last yr. The other thing is Smith was from the ZBS where you can use UDFA/Late rd picks. That wont usually happen in power schemes that BOB/Devlin want to run.
 
leebigeztx said:
One of the most important things about coaching in the nfl is scheme and scheme fit. When Gibbs coached in Denver and in Houston, guess who coached the backs? Yes, Gibbs. The 1st thing BOB did coming from college was what? We want to get bigger on the line. So he wanted his ol to be bigger in weight. BIG doesn't spell MAN. Nobody is blowing guys off the ball. It's about movement and guys staying on blocks. So you're right, Gibbs probably couldn't have made this line a miracle line, but that's better than what they are now. Brown would still hold down the left side. The guy from KC was a zbs under Reid and would be fine. In the nfl , all 5 ol aren't gonna be all pro. They are a collective unit that function together. Under O'Brien can you name a guy who has gotten better every yr on the offense beside Hopkins?
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Fuller/Fiedo was/Griffin off of the top of my head.
 
infantrycak said:
No, it did not. They gave up just 22 sacks in 2007. Ron friggin Dayne was running over his career average.



Clearly Gibbs helped, but the arrival of decent RBs, Slaton and then Foster, was instrumental too.
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In 2007 tell me what the ypc avg was for the Texans RB'S and where the run game was ranked in the NFL? You know, the things Gibbs was brought here for?
 
steelbtexan said:
With Kubiak here before Gibbs the OL sucked.

After Gibbs came and was given cart blanche over the OL/Run game coordinator the OL improved because of Gibbs personally scouting DB and the Colorado connection between Kubiak/Gibbs with Myers/Briesel. You think it was happenstance that when Gibbs got here the run game improved? Kubiak/Gibbs/Smith were all on the same page as Gibbs was the father of the ZBS and Kubiak/Smith learned from him.

BOB/Smith/Devlin have never been on the same page ever, which leads to XSF over Jimmy G type picks. Smith didn't have a clue as to the kind of OL BOB/Devlin want. Gaine does and the FA/Rankins pick should tell you what they are looking for even though I disagree with how they went about rebuilding the OL.

Can you see the difference in the type of OL Gaine/BOB/Devlin have acquired compared to Smith/BOB/Devlin?

In short to answer your question, Because the coaches weren't picking the players and the GM came from a different system than the HC/OLcoach came from. # receipe for the disaster of an OL from last yr. The other thing is Smith was from the ZBS where you can use UDFA/Late rd picks. That wont usually happen in power schemes that BOB/Devlin want to run.
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When Gibbs showed up there were 2 pre-Kubiak players, Andre and the kicker. Gibbs and Myers never crossed paths here (your bias is showing), Briseil was pre-Gibbs, and you fail to say anything about the development of all-pros that never saw Alex Gibbs.

Why are you bringing a QB into an offensive line discussion? And ignoring the fact that we took a top rated ("the most pro ready") OG in the 2nd round ... and coached him into oblivion. Every free agent that we've signed has become worse, and our only redeeming draft picks are busted centers.

So our coaches over the past 5 years are such bitches that they aren't allowed input on who they want. No wonder we're the 8-8 team ... "Gee wiz Mr Smith sir may I can please ask you for a new right guard sir? That Brandon Brooks fella is just too mean looking!"

(wildly drunk, I'll either regret or laugh at this post in a few hours)
 
Scooter said:
When Gibbs showed up there were 2 pre-Kubiak players, Andre and the kicker. Gibbs and Myers never crossed paths here (your bias is showing), Briseil was pre-Gibbs, and you fail to say anything about the development of all-pros that never saw Alex Gibbs.

Why are you bringing a QB into an offensive line discussion? And ignoring the fact that we took a top rated ("the most pro ready") OG in the 2nd round ... and coached him into oblivion. Every free agent that we've signed has become worse, and our only redeeming draft picks are busted centers.

So our coaches over the past 5 years are such bitches that they aren't allowed input on who they want. No wonder we're the 8-8 team ... "Gee wiz Mr Smith sir may I can please ask you for a new right guard sir? That Brandon Brooks fella is just too mean looking!"

(wildly drunk, I'll either regret or laugh at this post in a few hours)
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Kubiak did it all.

The QB/XSF was to show you the disconnect between GM/HC.

I totally believe BOBwhen the words out of his own mouth said Ricky gets the player I coach them. Why? Because on the surface both Ricky/BOB deserved to be fired for last yrs OL play alone. Yet one is still here and the other is gone.

Give Gaine/BOB a full compliment of draft picks plus one yr of development time and lets see how they do. I've always said this was a 3 yr rebuild unless they get really lucky and stay completely healthy. (unlikely) McNair knows what went on with Ricky/BOB and he apparently agrres with me since he signed BOB to a contract extension.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I don't know why so many people like living in the past. All that matters and can be affected now is the present and the future.
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I taught Social Studies for many years, and one of the largest posters in my room read .... "Those who are ignorant of history, are doomed to repeat their mistakes." I don't really know who has the final say on our draft strategies, and the selections we make, but I DO NOT AGREE with their philosophy when it comes to the amount of respect, value, significance, (or lack thereof), they give to the offensive line. Beyond quarterback, it is the most important facet of the team and has both direct and indirect influence on every other position.
 
justmy2cents said:
I taught Social Studies for many years, and one of the largest posters in my room read .... "Those who are ignorant of history, are doomed to repeat their mistakes." I don't really know who has the final say on our draft strategies, and the selections we make, but I DO NOT AGREE with their philosophy when it comes to the amount of respect, value, significance, (or lack thereof), they give to the offensive line. Beyond quarterback, it is the most important facet of the team and has both direct and indirect influence on every other position.
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They haven't ignored the offensive line. That seems to be a fallacy around here that gets tossed around as fact. The picks they've made/FA signings simply haven't worked out yet since O'Brien's been here and we left the ZBS.
 
Carr Bombed said:
They haven't ignored the offensive line. That seems to be a fallacy around here that gets tossed around as fact. The picks they've made/FA signings simply haven't worked out yet since O'Brien's been here and we left the ZBS.
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They don't ignore it, but they continue to rebuild it with later round picks and other teams cast offs. O'Brien wants to run a power blocking scheme, but the linemen that flourish in man blocking have to be studs - 1st and 2nd rounders as a rule. He does'nt get those, but other teams do. You can build a heck of a zone blocking line with 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th rounders. We've proven that. Well, except for Brown, who was a late 1st. The obvious point being .... if you can't bring yourself to spend early picks on offensive linemen, but you feel that you must employ a power scheme, you are dooming the team to mediocrity, or worse.
 
justmy2cents said:
They don't ignore it, but they continue to rebuild it with later round picks and other teams cast offs. O'Brien wants to run a power blocking scheme, but the linemen that flourish in man blocking have to be studs - 1st and 2nd rounders as a rule. He does'nt get those, but other teams do. You can build a heck of a zone blocking line with 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th rounders. We've proven that. Well, except for Brown, who was a late 1st. The obvious point being .... if you can't bring yourself to spend early picks on offensive linemen, but you feel that you must employ a power scheme, you are dooming the team to mediocrity, or worse.
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They spent two 2nd round picks on the line.. one 2nd rounder was the 33rd overall pick in the entire draft which might as well be a 1st rounder.. Again, it's a complete fallacy that they haven't invested in the offensive line.
 
Carr Bombed said:
They spent two 2nd round picks on the line.. one 2nd rounder was the 33rd overall pick in the entire draft which might as well be a 1st rounder.. Again, it's a complete fallacy that they haven't invested in the offensive line.
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It's also a fallacy that you have to spend high round picks for a power scheme. The great SB Dallas Cowboy OL was 2 UDFAs, a 3rd, a 10th (not a typo) and another 3rd.

But they did have the guru of power, Houck. Still my biggest disappointment of the offseason, not upgrading the OL coach.
 
Scooter said:
So our coaches over the past 5 years are such bitches that they aren't allowed input on who they want. No wonder we're the 8-8 team ... "Gee wiz Mr Smith sir may I can please ask you for a new right guard sir? That Brandon Brooks fella is just too mean looking!"
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I can't get my head around this thought. I'll bet Wade and RAC let Smith know just who they wanted picked. I don't get why some think that O'Brien/Devlin would just take whoever gets thrown their way. If duds were selected, the coaches should have been in on the selection process.
 
justmy2cents said:
I taught Social Studies for many years, and one of the largest posters in my room read .... "Those who are ignorant of history, are doomed to repeat their mistakes." I don't really know who has the final say on our draft strategies, and the selections we make, but I DO NOT AGREE with their philosophy when it comes to the amount of respect, value, significance, (or lack thereof), they give to the offensive line. Beyond quarterback, it is the most important facet of the team and has both direct and indirect influence on every other position.
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Not to speak for Doc but mentioning or discussing the past is cool but you must admit some go over same old ground forever back and forth with nothing new. Even a cow eventually stops regurgitating and goes on to other food.
 
ObsiWan said:
I can't get my head around this thought. I'll bet Wade and RAC let Smith know just who they wanted picked. I don't get why some think that O'Brien/Devlin would just take whoever gets thrown their way. If duds were selected, the coaches should have been in on the selection process.
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Kubiak also let Rick know who he wanted. Kubiak, Wade and Crennel all were able to build talented units.

O'Brien has not, and somehow that is Rick's fault.

Even with Rick gone, obrien appears to be making the same mistakes, aka relying on crappy players like Lamm.
 
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Atleast give the team a full compliment of draft picks before judging whether the problem was Smith or not.

Jesus
 
steelbtexan said:
Atleast give the team a full compliment of draft picks before judging whether the problem was Smith or not.

Jesus
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Ok but look at this draft. A new vision for the offense again and 3 gadget players/projects on offense.

And the attempts to fix the OL in free agency or trade were underwhelming (outside of Fulton)
 
TheKDog said:
Ok but look at this draft. A new vision for the offense again and 3 gadget players/projects on offense.

And the attempts to fix the OL in free agency or trade were underwhelming (outside of Fulton)
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Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you.

But I'm willing to see what they can do with a full compliment of draft picks. There's a possibility that they decided to go with what they had plus add some backup FA's to get thru this yr because the 2019 draft is loaded with OL. We dont know, but Ido know there are going to be 3 quality OT's in this draft.
 
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steelbtexan said:
Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you.

But I'm willing to see what they can do with a full compliment of draft picks. There's a possibility that they decided to go with what they had plus add some backup FA's to get thru this yr because the 2019 draft is loaded with OL. We dont know, but Ido know there are going to be 3 quality OT's in this draft.
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If history serves, Texans will go DL


Oh wait... RS is gone
 
steelbtexan said:
Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you.

But I'm willing to see what they can do with a full compliment of draft picks. There's a possibility that they decided to go with what they had plus add some backup FA's to get thru this yr because the 2019 draft is loaded with OL. We dont know, but Ido know there are going to be 3 quality OT's in this draft.
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Fair enough. Missing out on the first two rounds is big
 
It's not the Texans haven't "tried" to draft OL......they've just done a piss-poor job of, identifying talent (outside of Duane Brown), coaching up the questionable talent, or scheming to the talent on hand.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
It's not the Texans haven't "tried" to draft OL......they've just done a piss-poor job of, identifying talent (outside of Duane Brown), coaching up the questionable talent, or scheming to the talent on hand.
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This is what happens when you GM/HC aren't on the same page.

# Dysfunctional

Good thing is all of the dysfunction no longer exists down on Kirby.
 
TheKDog said:
Since Kubiak left. OL was pretty good most Kubiak years. Still top 10 when he left.
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Agreed, but getting old

BOB, didn't run the ZBS that so many love around here. So they needed OLfor a power blocking scheme. Ricky/scouts did a poor evaluation on power scheme OL. Because all they knew how to scout for was the ZBS. Plus Devlin doesn't look to be all that as an OL coach

Hopefully with the GM/HC on the same page this will no longer be an issue.
 
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