beerlover
Hall of Fame
he took the year off in preparation to get paid
As a Sophomore Clowney had 13 sacks, 23.5 tfl & 40 tkl in the SEC
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Clowney, then what?
- Thread starter thunderkyss
- Start date
he took the year off in preparation to get paid
As a Sophomore Clowney had 13 sacks, 23.5 tfl & 40 tkl in the SEC
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
See, that's my point. His physical freakness doesn't match his productivity. I remember talking about gabbert before the draft. He has a big arm,but he's dink and dunk at mizzou. The same offense chase daiels put up monster numbers. Gabbert is a good foot athlete,yet he gets run down and sacked a lot. The nail was 14tds 7 ints in college. College qb are putting up unreal numbers and this dude is barely 3k and 14 tds.
Half ass mario and julis killed his production,yet he's a freak?
Check out BL's post of Clowney's 2012 #'s.
Tell me what do you think of Robinson? Physical freak with unlimited potential. The OL with Brooks/Robinson on the right side 3rd and1/Goal line offense wouldn't be a problem.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
His 2012 numbers just make his 2013 numbers that much worse. Besides being bad numbers, the comparison implies that not only is going to take plays off, he's going to take whole seasons off if he thinks it's in his own best interest. This guy makes Sam Montgomery look like he has a good work ethic and only thinks of the team.
How is someone with that mental and emotional makeup going to deal with getting a ton of cash? Is he only going to perform in his contract years?
I would not take a risk on this guy. I would not trust him.
If you guys actually watched some game tape of him instead of just obsessing over numbers you would see a few things about Clowney this past season. First, he effects a lot of plays that the number don't show. Second, teams game plan and run plays away from him. Third, he does take plays off from time to time, but what he does more often is quit on plays before they are finished, eliminating opportunities to make "second chance" tackles and stops. Something you see with high motor guys like Watt is they will never stop pursuing the ball until the whistle is blown, and then some.
Does this overshadow his freakish ability and elite pass rushing? Depends on who you ask I guess, but he definitely didn't becomes a worse player from 2012 to 2013 just because his numbers dropped.
Does this overshadow his freakish ability and elite pass rushing? Depends on who you ask I guess, but he definitely didn't becomes a worse player from 2012 to 2013 just because his numbers dropped.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I don't spend a first round pick on a guy with a questionable motor. At 1-1, I want a bloodthirsty killer who's part machine and part berserker not someone who's happy to play patty-cake with a tackle.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You know what they say about assumptions.
So did Julius and Mario.
And they did from Julius and Mario also.
This is endearing how?
No I completely got you, and that is why Clowney is not the consensus first overall pick. If he was a high motor guy without questionable motivation, then I don't think there would be much of a conversation about who we should take. But alas thats not the case
My point was, his skills didn't decline from 2012 to 2013 like I think some were inferring...was just calling attention to a few things I observed from actually watching him. And I don't think we should use his inferior numbers in 2013 as the major knock on him.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
No I completely got you, and that is why Clowney is not the consensus first overall pick. If he was a high motor guy without questionable motivation, then I don't think there would be much of a conversation about who we should take. But alas thats not the case
My point was, his skills didn't decline from 2012 to 2013 like I think some were inferring...was just calling attention to a few things I observed from actually watching him. And I don't think we should use his inferior numbers in 2013 as the major knock on him.
Every excuse you make for clowney,you act as if peppers,mario,chris long,von miller,aldon smith,and every other big time collegiate pass rusher didn't get the same treatment. Same treatment, yet they produced tangible #s.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Everything I've read is that TB, Bortles and Manziel are mid 1st talents who are higher on the Mocks because of the need for QBs. I've also sensed that QB centric fans really don't care about the talent as much as the POSITION they play. I put this in a category of reach by going from mid to high 1st. But the depth is interesting because there are 10 QBs who will probably get serious consideration in the top half of the draft - Rounds 1 through the middle of the 4th. The falloff isn't there like it is for many other positions.
I suspect five years from now we'll be talking about this QB draft as forgettable.
TexansFTW
Veteran
Not MOCKS, but big boards. BIG BOARDS are overall talent placement, completely different. This whole area of the forum is dedicated to this stuff. I haven't seen any BIG BOARD that lists him as a mid first round talent.
This has all been made up and passed off as truth by the Clowney contingent.
And I respect that you think that will happen in 5 years, that is your right to believe that. I suspect in 5 years I will bring this statement up and you will deny it once 2 of the top 3 guys have beasted out in the NFL.
My top 2:
1. Luigi
2. Mario
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Just for clarification, I consider the Big Board ranking as TALENT centric and Mocks as NEED centric. A REACH is drafting the latter rather than the former.
And you don't know me if you believe I run from my mistakes. They are useful as cautionary tales. I'm a scientist at heart and electronics was a passion pre computer so I know the necessity for a feedback loop in a system.
He just has a different definition of reach than I do.
He's considering several of those guys a reach by "my" definition which he believes has to do with big board rankings. I'd have to look at their grades before I can determine if a player is a reach or not. I don't believe most of those "reaches" by "my" definition are reaches, but since I can't go off memory to prove it... I'm stuck.
It is highly possible that the grades separating a player at 9 from a player at 19 is only a couple of points. In which case, I wouldn't consider that a reach. Tannehill for example. He grades very highly in my mind. He's got the size, decent arm, played for a major program in a major conference & was fairly successful. He's a very good athlete. Not a lot of "wow" factor, but a very solid prospect. & in that draft, I might have liked Bruce Irvin or Dontari Poe a little better... However, I'm wary of taking a guy as big as Poe that high in the draft. IMO, they tend to slow down very quickly, I doubt Poe will be as productive as Tannehill for as long as Tannehill will be. I probably would have taken Irvin.
I did like Kendall Wright.... but he's "smallish." I think he was a reach where he was taken. A proven playmaker.... kinda, but I liked Stephen Hill & Alshon Jeffery a lot more.
Then, that was a very thin QB class. Cousins would have been the only other guy I'd have considered (I know a lot of guys like Foles & he looks pretty good in Philly now). So if I was Miami, only two of "my guys" were on the board & there was a good chance neither would be there by the time of my second pick. Luck, Griffin, Tannehill, & Cousins... had first round grades... my first round grades.
That said the guys who rated Tannehill 22-45 & I obviously graded these players differently than I do. I don't ever "grade" even 25 players to be able to rank them the way they did. I look pretty much at the projected 1st rounders & skill positions.
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Read my posts again and tell me I am making excuses or acting like Clowney is the only one to get special attention in college.
That is not what I am saying at all. I am pointing out as to why I believe his took a significant drop from 2012 to 2013...NOT because he magically became less of a player like some of you are ridiculously insinuating, but because I think teams figured out how to neutralize him as a threat because of his inability to effect a play other than just getting to the QB quickly off the snap. If you watch him from 2012 to 2013; he still has the freakish first step, lateral agility, strength and use of hands, ability to convert speed to power, etc...IE he is still an amazing athlete.
Also what I didn't mention is the injuries that he endured this season that caused him to miss time and/or not being at 100% or able to give his full effort. Not an excuse mind you, but a fact, and actually something that raises concern with me...I don't think many have focused much on Clowney's injury history.
And that's somewhat like comparing Watt's 2012 to his 2013, where many said last season was better than '12 even though the sack production was only half the total of '12.
And this is where we disagree.
I would make the same decision that Clowney made. He may not go 1-1 but he will go top 5 and still make millions vs getting hurt and becoming a 6th rd pick like his teammate Lattimore. Stupid NCAA/NFLPA rules.
TexansFTW
Veteran
It's been focused on pretty extensively. Here, there is a TT own kind of 'team Doctor' in this forum.
He's broken it down very well. Good info. Read his posts. Cloak NNN Dagger. PPL just call him CND mostly.
I hope you don't mean this. You're advocating all players basically sit out their Senior seasons (or in his case Junior season). What's next? Sitting out when your team has 5 losses and you might not make a bowl game? Or when you're a big time school and you have 2 losses and might not be in the BCS tournament.
Maybe when they get to the pros and they have that huge contract year coming they should hold out and say screw the team.
There is no 'I' in team.
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bah007
Hall of Fame
I cannot believe that you are on board with this. If you are scared to get hurt then don't step between the lines. Period. Everybody knows the dangers and if you aren't okay with it then you shouldn't be playing. Clowney put himself above his teammates. He would have been better off sitting on the bench than half assing it on the field. There's no positive way to spin that.
Lattimore was graded by most as a late 1st/early 2nd round pick before his injury and he only fell to the 4th round. He was picked in the 4th despite SF knowing full well that he would be sitting out his entire rookie year
That was after he tore a left knee ligament and some cartilage in 2011, and then the very next year tore the ACL, MCL, and PCL in his right knee.
Lattimore didn't fall just because of the second injury. McGahee suffered the same injury his final year at Miami and was still a 1st round pick. Lattimore fell because of the combination of having ligament injuries to both knees in a span of less than 12 months.
If you know the history, you know many thought we'd take McHahee in 2003 with our 1.3 instead of McHahee's teammate, some guy named Andre Johnson, before his knee blew out.
But a second season-ending injury to Lattimore is devastaing though not necessarily insurmountable if you review the history of Frank Gore, another RB and also a U grad, and see how he's come back.
bah007
Hall of Fame
I agree with all of that and remember it well. McGahee was considered by most to be a top 5 lock before his injury.
My point to steelb is that Clowney was never in the same situation Lattimore was, and therefore never had much to lose if he were to get hurt. No more than any other top prospect ever has.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Whether or not it was a smart decision by Clowney to shut it down and minimize his risk of injury for an entire season before the draft, it would make him almost undraftable by me. It looks like his decision is going to turn out to be the right one because he's going to go in the top 5 and is in position to go 1-1.
But if I'm a GM, I'm saying, "Yeah, no. I'll let someone else deal with a guy like that." His basic mind-set is that of a player who's going to give up and save it up for another day when the going gets tough. That's not a winner and I don't know if he can be broken of that sort of mind-set.
But if I'm a GM, I'm saying, "Yeah, no. I'll let someone else deal with a guy like that." His basic mind-set is that of a player who's going to give up and save it up for another day when the going gets tough. That's not a winner and I don't know if he can be broken of that sort of mind-set.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Or maybe it got hard for him and he showed his true character. The nfl is a hard game,much harder than college. As a testimony, jj played just as hard this yr as he did last yr. Andre played just as hard last yr as this yr. I mean this was aj's 2nd 2-14 season and heplayed just as hard. Know why? Character. Its easy to play hard when you're winning and plaing well,but its extremely hard to play hard when the team is sucking. Even mario played hard when he was playing with a sports hernia and other injuries. Will clowney play hard while nicked up and the team isn't playing well. Judging by not only this year but last yr,he won't. That a major character flaw.
Quinn attended Fort Dorchester High School in North Charleston, South Carolina, where he played for the Fort Dorchester Patriots high school football team. As a senior his season was shortened after undergoing brain surgery for a benign tumor.
***
As a junior in 2010, Quinn missed the season after he was ruled ineligible by the NCAA for lying to investigators about receiving travel accommodations and jewelry.]
On November 19, 2013, the University of North Carolina sent a disassociation letter to Quinn, Marvin Austin, and Greg Little for the improper benefits taken during the their time at the university. The three athletes are prohibited from contacting current North Carolina athletes and are not allowed inside the Kenan Football Center or other athletic facilities on campus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Quinn_(American_football)
Clowney is comparable to Robert Quinn in several ways, but with not nearly the
off-field issues that Quinn had. Quinn had a medical history which included a brain tumor, for which he was taken off of many teams Boards. And he didn't just fail to put maximize his effort in his last year in college, he was thrown off of his college team his entire last year.
So last year he had 19 sacks and is probably considered the best young edge rusher in the NFL today.
Like Clowney, he's always been considered an enormous talent.
***
As a junior in 2010, Quinn missed the season after he was ruled ineligible by the NCAA for lying to investigators about receiving travel accommodations and jewelry.]
On November 19, 2013, the University of North Carolina sent a disassociation letter to Quinn, Marvin Austin, and Greg Little for the improper benefits taken during the their time at the university. The three athletes are prohibited from contacting current North Carolina athletes and are not allowed inside the Kenan Football Center or other athletic facilities on campus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Quinn_(American_football)
Clowney is comparable to Robert Quinn in several ways, but with not nearly the
off-field issues that Quinn had. Quinn had a medical history which included a brain tumor, for which he was taken off of many teams Boards. And he didn't just fail to put maximize his effort in his last year in college, he was thrown off of his college team his entire last year.
So last year he had 19 sacks and is probably considered the best young edge rusher in the NFL today.
Like Clowney, he's always been considered an enormous talent.
I wouldn't have played period last yr if I was in Clowney's position. He was in a lose-lose situation.
McGahee fell from a top 5 pick to 23rd in the draft, costing him millions. Agreed on Lattimore. Seeing his family that day was really sad. It was like seeing a lottery ticket burning up in a fireplace. Very Solemn, it felt eerie, I was scouting Bray on TV and felt that way. I can only imagine how Clowney felt.
BTW, Clowney made the right call, he will be a top 5 pick after the combine. Atlanta will pick him if he falls that far.
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It was a very emotional setting when latimore went down. You could feel and see the emotional response of the fans, the announcers and most of all his teammates. I guarantee you that had a lasting effect on Clowney. Call it an excuse or what ever you want but Clowney was in a unique situation that had to magnify that day.
I think his goal from day one at SC was to do whatever he had to do to make it through to the NFL where he could make a living doing what he was born to do. He is the Lebran james of football.
I remember cringing watching the play at full spped and then the endless replays. It felt like McGahee all over again and looked far, far worse physically.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Watching this Spurrier/Clowneyvideo, the term "Ragdoll Maker" comes to mind.
I can't get past the dreadlocks. Just can't trust people with dreadlocks.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
TD: " how's his work ethic?"
Spurrier " Ehh, it was ok....."
physical freak or not, that has to be a concern for everyone...his own coach won't even cover up for him even a little..
Don't forget he had to slow him down in practice. I think Spurrier answered the way he did because he didn't like the question. I can see how someone would get tired of it.
I'm not on the "Clowney wagon" don't really think he should be our pick. But the work ethic thing is getting to much yap. You don't get to be 6'5" 275lbs with 6% body fat (eyeball test only) with a poor work ethic. Trust me, I know.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Back when I played, the coached let everyone know that playing half speed was more dangerous than playing full speed because your opponent would play, even if you didn't. Was this a lie?
Totally true. If your not playing hard your head isn't in the game, if your head isn't in the game you aren't aware of whats going on and can get yourself hurt.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
For the record, i too think it's getting a little too much run...but it's still a legitmate concern. I mean you can't have a guy out there half assing it for any reason, let alone someone expected to make the impact that Clowney is expected to make.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Someone remind me what Fat Albert is doing right now? Oh, that's right laughing his way around the world with his millions taking no risk at all in football.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
IMO, Spurrier was a little too honest with that. Rare to see a head coach give the media an opportunity to say he "threw his player under the bus." That's why it's news, but I don't think anyone in the league is shocked by the facts.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Maybe Spurrier didn't like the way Clowney was and doesn't care if the bus is coming his way.
drs23
Veteran
...and when you get hurt you end up on the couch watching TV. When you end up on the couch watching TV and it's cable the whole thing starts again.
Just get DirecTV and you won't get hurt in the first place...
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
...and when you get hurt you end up on the couch watching TV. When you end up on the couch watching TV and it's cable the whole thing starts again.
Just get DirecTV and you won't get hurt in the first place...
i see what you did there..
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
We need more of these college coaches to be honest about a player's tendencies...that's what's wrong with many of these incoming rookies now...
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
You can love to workout,doesn't mean you have a good work ethic for your profession. You ever heard look like tarzan,play like jane? Andre Bruce looked like the next LT with his shirt off.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I'd love to hear an HONEST Sumlin assessment.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Look like Tarzan, plays like Jane has nothing to do with work ethic. It's about being soft. No one is accusing Clowney of being soft.