The Medic01
Waterboy
Edit I meant can't on that last word.
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Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..
- Thread starter Carr Bombed
- Start date
eriadoc
Texan-American
After reading the fan analysis on this site, I cannot imagine why any team would even cover Walter, much less triple cover him.
rush2112mn
Rookie
I think one either Jean or Martin are pushing Walters on that 2nd spot. I dont see what is happening at training camp...the coaches are.....but from what I have seen during games.....I think it is up for grabs.......Any of the 3 have a shot at it......I want to see what happens at New Orleans next week......
Cjeremy635
Overtraining
He caught the TD that put us into the playoffs for the 1st time in franchise history. That is something that no other receiver on the roster has done. Would AJ make that catch? 99% sure, but AJ was injured.
You're banking on a healthy AJ for an entire season. My gut tells me that may not be the case given his injury history over the last couple of seasons. So, you'd like to go into the season with 1 veteran receiver that has a good chance of getting injured? I don't think that's a smart call at all.
Quick II Draw
Waterboy
The first paragraph is total nonsensical homerism. He should be a starter (or on the team) because...he caught an important pass in the team's history? Seriously? First of all, it wasn't even a particularly challenging catch. Even if it was, who cares? David Tyree was unceremoniously gone after his SUPER BOWL catch.
But yes, KW should make the final roster and should start if he's still the best WR2 or WR3. Behind him and AJ is nothing but practice squad players and rookies.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I don't think that Walter is that good in general. Never really have, but Jean has done nothing in the NFL yet. Having a strong pre season game is not a reason to make him an automatic starter. Let's see him wrecking shop in regular season and then we'll talk. Jacoby Jones looked like the 2nd coming of Desean Jackson when he played in pre season.
Walter's presence is not one that does a thing to worry opposing defensive coordinators. I just laugh at the notion that Jean is this star in the making after one game where he looked great in the pre season. Pre season warriors appear on teams every year. Hopefully Jean can become a regular season warrior, but we'll wait and see what happens, before letting him take people's positions after one pre season game.
drs23
Veteran
Not to pick nits but...it's been two PS games now. Three if you count last year. He had two for fifty in the first game. One where he was defended pretty well. In two games he's had six receptions for 92 yards and averaged over 15 yards a catch. That's not too shabby.
Granted, it's only PS but that's what it's for. Evaluation. So far it seems as the folks that do the evaluating like what they see.
I, much like you and every other fan, hope to see Jean carry this production into the season. If he does then we can forget the Jacoby Jones comparisons. If not then the comparisons will have been valid.
Personally I think we're watching a receiver come into his own. On top of that he seems to be somewhat humble and I'll take that over Diva any day. (That's just my observation and not relevant to your post)
I'm supposed to trust the analysis of fans that can't seem to get a player's last name correct after a half dozen years?
My take is Walter definitely starts the year at #2. Not 100% sure he will finish there, but to start I have nearly zero doubt in my mind about that.
The real fight right now is between Martin and Jean for #3. My take is they end up splitting the #3 spot situationally (down,distance, play call, field position, etc) - as you have two completely different cats there physically. If one is too eventually beat out Walter, I'm thinking it's Jean - and it's not based on talent but on size, stature, weight - let's see if the guy can block. Until he can block well, it's Walter's job.
Posey makes the team as the #5 guy who slowly works into the rotation as he continues to grow in a pro WR, or takes a heavier load should an injury occur.
Holliday is #6, takes all the returns and works in on offense with a few trick plays, and maybe a screen or two over the year.
So this is the final roster at WR:
#1 - AJ
#2 - Walter
#3 - Jean
#4 - Martin
#5 - Posey
#6 - Holliday
Agree completely...
At least at time point in time, the odd man out isn't Walter. It's Bryant.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Well if you're going to mention a game from last season, then that would make my point more, but I don't want that to be the case. I liked what I saw, but I just want to see it in the regular season. It isn't just about Jacoby. Teams all around the league have guys like this who do great, but then disappear. I like what I'm seeing though.
On another note, I'm really liking what I'm seeing out of Schaub so far. He looks ready and as good as ever.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I don't know whether Walter was triple covered or not on that play, but if he was it's because it was a pre season game if anything. If you're going to sit here and act like that is evidence of Walter commanding attention from defenses, well that's a funny one considering we're talking about a guy that couldn't even muster up over 500 yards last season.
The only real attribute you guys clamor on to as far as Walter goes year after year is his amazing blocking. I don't think that is some sort of reason why teams would worry about Walter's play making abilities unless you're going to tell me that Walter is going to mow down half the defense like he's Bobby Bushay or something.
This is the NFL ... stats are everything , the details dont matter.
Somehow I missed the fact that Kevin Walter is as effective as this guy as a blocker.
Goldensilence
hipster elite
:/ Maybe we shouldn't have ever let Carr go cause he did throw a touchdown in our first franchise win ever or maybe Billy Miller because he caught that TD. In fact, perhaps we shouldn't have cut whomever made the first INT on defense too.
I'm don't think many people here are advocating a PS cut of Walter, but I don't see how anyone can make a real argument against his playing time and his status as #2 getting severely cut into over the season.
I don't think it has as much to do with Jean or Martin doing well in preseason as much as the lack of production over the past two seasons when the offense has needed him to step up. I mean is there another #2 in the league that has steadily disappeared like KW has?
I agree with Thorn...... until these rooks (& LeStar) take a 16 game assWhup'n & come back looking for more, Walter starts & rightly so. If the coaches decide they are ready sooner than that, so be it. If they end up starting because of injury, so be it.
But damn they (Martin especially) look good.
But damn they (Martin especially) look good.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Walter ends up double covered quite a lot in regular season games, actually. I've seen it. It almost makes no sense, until you think about it. I'm not claiming he scares DCs into scheming for him, but I think it comes down to the fact that Kubiak draws up some incredible plays. And the guy he trusts to mind-f%@k the secondary is Walter. I have no doubt that once one of these young guys earns that trust from Kubiak, then we'll have a better playmaker on the field in the WR2 spot. Until then, Walter's going to continue doing exactly what Kubiak asks of him and he's going to continue to make people here frustrated. It's sort of comical, really.
Careful with the friendly fire there, Tex. Read my first post. I want to see Jean in that spot. I just think that it's not as simple as the anti-Walter crowd wants to make it. I would much rather have a playmaker WR out there, but it's obvious that we don't know WTF we're talking about if Kubiak keeps trusting him with the job. For as many opportunities that Kubiak gave JJ, for instance, he never gave those opportunities at the expense of Walter. That says something.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
KW saw the writing on the wall when he took the pay cut to stay here. He knows that he's not going to be the #2 for long and if he hadn't taken that pay cut, he probably would have been cut along with Winston.
He's not the future. He knows his time is coming. But right now, he's our #2 while Lestar and Keshawn develop but by the end of the season, don't count on him having that position anymore. By mid-season, there's a good chance he's our #4.
He's not the future. He knows his time is coming. But right now, he's our #2 while Lestar and Keshawn develop but by the end of the season, don't count on him having that position anymore. By mid-season, there's a good chance he's our #4.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Kubiak is also the same guy that resigned JJ after several poor seasons and resigned him to a really nice deal. Had JJ not muffed that KR in the playoffs he is still here and Kubiak is probably ignoring the awful season he had before the fumble in the playoff game. Kubiak is also the guy that kept giving Chris Brown the RB all of those chances on the GL that season no matter how ineffective he was which cost the Texans a playoff birth that year. Kubiak trusted Amaan Green for one season to long after that horrible first season he had here. Kubiak may be a good offensive coach, but lets not act like his judgement can't be questioned. His history of hanging onto certain players is definitely spotty to say the least. I'm not saying that there may not be good reasons as well that Kubiak has kept his trust and his faith in Walter either, but lets not sit here and act like we can't question Kubiak's decisions either considering his history. A lot of us went ape **** when JJ was resigned and felt like it would haunt our team down the line and it did.
As Pencil Neck pointed out, Walter probably wouldn't even be here right now if he didn't take the pay cut.
To be fair, what was he to do? LeStar & Trindon were both injured before the season started. That was his "get rid of Jacoby" plan.
Same thing with Chris Brown.... I'd have liked for them to have signed LJ before our bye week, but that's not the decision he made. I don't think it was because he felt he owed Chris Brown anything, but he expected a few of our young core to step up..... Aj, Schaub, Winston, OD, etc... things didn't go the way he planed, but the point is that I don't think it is because of some misplaced loyalty.
The man knows better than you or I, that it's his job on the line & "taking care" of Jacoby Jones isn't going to put food on the table.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Sorry, but this is just a spin. Kubiak has made those mistakes and those I mentioned are mistakes that cost the team. Trying to deflect it all on other things is counter productive to future speculation if we're going to look back on history. LJ was and never would have been a good player to bring in around that time either. He was horrible at that time and had a really bad attitude. Those mistakes cost the team. Simply saying he knows better than you and I because he is a coach isn't really saying anything other than Kubiak is a god because he's an NFL coach that coaches the Texans. What's the point in discussing the team then? Might as well just watch and accept everything Kubiak does as perfect because he apparently knows better than you and I no matter what despite his record being 47-49 in 6 years. He has made some great decisions as well, but to ignore others that haven't been smart sound decisions is not an accurate way to evaluate things. The current condition of the team looks good right now, but it hasn't been that way for the last 4 years.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/texans/story/2012-08-01/texans-offense-receivers/56671564/1
"If you ask anyone in our locker room who's the most underrated player, the most important player or the unsung hero of our team, it's Kevin," Texans quarterback Matt Schaub said. "Every time, hands down. No question."
Added Texans coach Gary Kubiak: "Kevin is just a solid player. He understands our offense to a T. He can play all over the place. He's always there, he never misses time, he never misses anything. He does a lot of dirty work. He's excellent in the run game. Kevin just kind of finds a way to do it."
...
While the statistics might ebb in one direction or the other, to Schaub they represent balance.
"We have a ton of weapons, and I don't think people really see that," he said. "They see a passing game, not an offense. They don't see the total package.
....
"Kevin may have a rough day or two out here at practice, but he's going to be here the whole camp," Kubiak said. "And when it's said and done, he'll still be standing."
"If you ask anyone in our locker room who's the most underrated player, the most important player or the unsung hero of our team, it's Kevin," Texans quarterback Matt Schaub said. "Every time, hands down. No question."
Added Texans coach Gary Kubiak: "Kevin is just a solid player. He understands our offense to a T. He can play all over the place. He's always there, he never misses time, he never misses anything. He does a lot of dirty work. He's excellent in the run game. Kevin just kind of finds a way to do it."
...
While the statistics might ebb in one direction or the other, to Schaub they represent balance.
"We have a ton of weapons, and I don't think people really see that," he said. "They see a passing game, not an offense. They don't see the total package.
....
"Kevin may have a rough day or two out here at practice, but he's going to be here the whole camp," Kubiak said. "And when it's said and done, he'll still be standing."
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Fantastic... he wins the nice guy award.
Like I said, I subscribe to NFL game rewind.
I was able to watch 9 games so far from last year, with the All-22 view, and the end zone view.
Walter is the #2 as Kubiak use him.
In Kubiak's terms, he wants another receiver to be use differently.
(Thus the 2A and 2B).
Walter is not going anywhere until another guy can prove he's able to do the things Kubiak wants Walter to do.
Subscribe to NFL Game Rewind and you can see all the details.
You will have a better-informed opinion.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
^ That's all well and good, but if he's so great, then why did they ask him to cut his salary in half from 3 million to 1.5 this year? Apparently he didn't think he could get more elsewhere, or maybe winning and being a Texan are more important to him. In any case, I don't think Rick is going to ask OD, Manning, Myers, or Antonio to take a paycut without an extension.
I would rather not going into guessing mode.
Who knows what's going on behind close doors.
There are plenty of things a guy can be compensated with.
We're living in a capitalist world.
Creative financing is something Bob McNair no doubt has mastered.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Blowing zone coverage is not exactly triple covering someone. It called bad defense and a blown assignment. We could've had any receiver out there and chances are they still would've blown the coverage. To try to use that play as a example that teams game plan for Walter or that he scares defenses is rediculous and disingenuous.
Speaking of that play.. it was the same play that Walter scored on against the Bengals.. and the coverage was blown on that play as well. Which speaks to the play itself and how well it's designed.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
If he's so great then why did Kubiak move Keshawn to the Z position when Andre returned (Walter's position) something tells me Walter is about to lose his job.
And everybody who thinks that this guy is the bee's knees or irreplaceable.. you really need to go pull up the production that other teams are getting from their #2s. Believe it or not.. other teams actually have a #2 wideout who can lead the team in receiving on any given Sunday.
AJ, Walter, and JJ all played every different positions.
Most receivers in the NFL do, after a period of time.
They have to line up as the X, Z, in the slot, or in the common bunch (diamond) formation.
Different system/different coaches use their players differently.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Yeah, I'm not really guessing one way or the other on it, but it is highly unusual for a player to take an outright paycut. I can't think of anyone in the NFL who has done that in the last few years.
I think Walter has his place on this team and that he belongs, but I'm not kidding myself into thinking we can't upgrade him with some younger talent. I'm already liking Kmart more than I ever liked Walter, but we shall see how they pan out this season. There's plenty of room for all 5 WRs to be on this team.
It doesn't matter.
The fact remains that the defense call was designed to at least double-team the receicer that runs the post route.
And as I had stated in the game day thread, Walter was also double-teamed on the play where OD was called for false start when Schaub was about to go long to AJ on the right side line.
I don't have time to really key in on Walter on every play yet.
But more or less it's about the same as usual, just another blue-collar day for KDub.
Obviously, sooner or later, KW will retire.
How short or long the phasing-out period is will depend on how quickly the young guys progress.
It's inevitable!
GP
Go Texans!
Keshawn Martin is something entirely new to us.
He's not a big tall AJ'ish receiver.
He's not a lanky possession receiver.
He's not tiny.
We're staring right at the next big thing, IMO, and it's in a shape/form that hasn't existed here yet.
The guy is electric. He's got glue hands. He's looking like a seasoned veteran. When that guy catches the ball, he's already going or cutting or setting up a move on some defender.
He's got the killer instincts of AJ, the burst of Holliday, the hands of Owen Daniels, and the route running of Kevin Walter. We're staring at #82 becoming the heir to AJ.
Jean is good. Keshawn is a whole 'nuther level of good.
He's the type of guy who goes all Reggie Wayne on a defense and just takes over games on his own.
Kubiak and Schaub are going to use Martin like their own personal Terminator. Minus the nude opening scene.
He's not a big tall AJ'ish receiver.
He's not a lanky possession receiver.
He's not tiny.
We're staring right at the next big thing, IMO, and it's in a shape/form that hasn't existed here yet.
The guy is electric. He's got glue hands. He's looking like a seasoned veteran. When that guy catches the ball, he's already going or cutting or setting up a move on some defender.
He's got the killer instincts of AJ, the burst of Holliday, the hands of Owen Daniels, and the route running of Kevin Walter. We're staring at #82 becoming the heir to AJ.
Jean is good. Keshawn is a whole 'nuther level of good.
He's the type of guy who goes all Reggie Wayne on a defense and just takes over games on his own.
Kubiak and Schaub are going to use Martin like their own personal Terminator. Minus the nude opening scene.
FosterGreatness
Practice Squad
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Yep and as soon as these young bucks learn their roles, Walter will get a new role as well. If he was even half as good as you're trying to make him out to be the guy would've been a LOT more productive when Andre went down last season.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
The play is designed to exploit zone coverage.. the receiver who plays that position sucks up the coverage leaving a hole for the other receiver who's running underneath.. I know this because the same damn thing happened against the Bengals.. the only difference was Walter was the one who ran LeStar Jean's route and he was the one who came open. That illustrates the quality of the play and not necessarily the receivers running it.
I've already started to take note on a game we played without AJ last year.
I will make a thread before the PS ends (I hope), and the title will be "a day in the life of Kevin Walter".
You will see how he was used in the game vs the Tacks in week 7 last year.
I'm halfway through the second quarter.
I'm not saying anything about the quality of the receiver here.
All I'm saying is that Walter was covered by 3 guys.
And when that happens, the QB would never throw the ball to you.
I'm not saying that it happens all the time either.
But there are several factors combined to explain why his production was reduced.
It was not because he can no longer get open.
It was not because he dropped too many balls.
There's no diminishing in his level of play is the point I'm making.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
So we have a entire thread of excuse making to look forward to..Look you can psychoanalye all the game tape you want, but it's not going to change my opinion. I only care about one thing.. production. 39 catches for 474 yards when your all world receiver is standing on the sideline in street clothes during 9 games is not good enough. And stop acting like the reason why he doesn't produce more is because how we use him.. the guy had back to back 800 yard seasons in '07 and '08. (899 yds) His production has nose dived since... hence why he was asked to take a pay cut.
Look you can psychoanalye all the game tape you want, but it's not going to change my opinion. I only care about one thing.. production. 39 catches for 474 yards when your all world receiver is standing on the sideline in street clothes during 9 games is not good enough. And stop acting like the reason why he doesn't produce more is because how we use him.. the guy had back to back 800 yard seasons in '07 and '08. His production has nose dived since... hence why he was asked to take a pay cut.
Never mind then.
All I know is that my excuses eventually turned into undeniable reality:
Duane Brown, Barwin, Mario, Myers, Hill (the one who got cut), Reeves, Wilson, Pollard, Jamison, and on and on.
My record of excuses is really really good.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Here's the play slowed down so it's easy to follow the coverage. Looks like the DBs are in zone and just follow the first Texan to get to their area. Big fail on the safety's part. Props to the o-line and their protection, they looked much better this game.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
Here's the play slowed down so it's easy to follow the coverage. Looks like the DBs are in zone and just follow the first Texan to get to their area. Big fail on the safety's part. Props to the o-line and their protection, they looked much better this game.
Excellent!
I hope one day we have the capability to play this in freeze frames so that our eyes can see what the QB was doing at the same instance as each receiver and each defender.
Then we can see that the extra safety (#36 Thomas) extended both arms to bump and redirect KMart (before taking on OD in the left flat), giving the CB #26 Brock time to check on both Martin's route while watching the QB's eyes at the same time.
These two guys were the ones attempting to tackle Jean.
With freeze frame, you can clearly see that #26 was always in front of KMart.
He was in position to jump the route.
There was no way Schaub can throw the ball to KMart with Jean that wide-open.
What do you think, Dutch?
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
He could have tried to squeeze it into Martin, but it probably wouldn't have been a completion. I doubt it would have been an INT, but it would have been a contested catch for sure. That safety was on him and watching Schaub the whole play, just waiting to pounce on the ball. On 3rd and 7 with only 4 rushers, it's tough to find an open man, but Schaub made the right call by waiting for someone to get open. A clean pocket made this happen.
Exactly what I saw after combining several different view.
Just a technical correction.
The "safety" you mentioned was the CB Brock #26.
The extra (third) safety was the one who bumped KMart before going out to the flat to cover OD.
The other two safeties, together with the SAM, formed a triangle around Walter in the middle.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
The more I look at this, the more I think it's just excellent play design. Playing that kind of zone against that particular play is destined to fail, I think.
Look again , he also has a LBer #54 playing underneath him #26 is headed in his direction originally but turns tail to Matrin and recovers .... 4 dudes covering Walter.
It was that LBers lack of zone integrity that uncovered Jean.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I'll defer to your knowledge of the 49ers second team defense
I have to clean up my previous question about Walter's contract restructuring. The restructure was to reduce his 2012 salary from 3.5 million to 2 million. It appears that his 2012-2014 salaries are not guaranteed, so he is likely going to be cut or restructured next year given his 3.5 million pricetag. Given how cash-strapped the Texans are, I doubt we pay him that much next year.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
After reading the thread a few times I have come to believe it's just an overreaction from preseason games. If anything, the OP and just about anybody who's followed the Texans while Kubiak is in charge knows deep down in their hearts that any change like what is being discussed is going to happen gradually over a season and not after 2 or 4 preseason games.
Yep, it's zone coverage.
Show me the man to man coverage where they dedicate multiple defenders strictly to stopping Walter.
This argument is ridiculous. No one goes into game day designing triple coverages for Kevin Walter. That kind of stuff is reserved for Aj.
Show me all these plays in man to man coverage where kw is being bracketed by multiple defenders.
You telling me out of all the receivers we'll have kw is going to be the one drawing the double and triple teams? With Andre, OD, aria , Casey and Lestar/Martin on the field WALTER is going to be the one teams pay extra attention to in coverage?
Well we should be un-f'n droppable then because all the rest of those guys should eat single or no coverage alive then.