O-line Situation

[Insideop]

As of now, with the loss of Winston and Brisiel, our O-line depth chart, according to houstontexans.com, looks like this:

LT...Duane Brown........Derek Newton
LG...Wade Smith.........Thomas Austin
C....Chris Myers..........?
RG...Antoine Caldwell...?
RT...Rashad Butler........Derek Newton.....Andrew Gardner

No mention of Shelley Smith or Cody Wallace, though both are listed on the roster. My guess is the S. Smith will be the RG backup and Wallace will be the C backup, at least until training camp and depending on if we get someone in the Draft or FA.

The 1st question is, do the Texans stand pat with what they have or do they go after more in FA and the Draft? I don't see them getting anyone in FA due to the lack of so the Draft will probably be the primary tool to get new O-linemen. The 2nd question then becomes, do the Texans believe they need to draft a starting Tackle or Guard or do they think they are good with what they have and will just Draft for depth and development?

Other factors that could play in to their decisions:
1. Age. Wade Smith and Myers will be 31 and Butler will be 30 soon.
2. Injuries. Butler and S. Smith were on IR all last year. Have they recovered?
3. Continuity. Do you draft a starting OT or OG (high pick) and hope they are quick learners or do you go with Caldwell and Butler who have some experience with the system?

My gut tells me to draft a RT in the first couple of rounds and start him if he can beat out Butler and let Caldwell be the RG. But, I just don't know if that's what the Texans will do. I don't know what they really think of Butler, Caldwell, S. Smith, Newton etc... And, depending on what they think, will decide who and where they draft!

So, with all this, what say you?

 

[Dutchrudder]

Shelley Smith will be the backup RG if we don't sign anyone else for that spot. He will likely be competing for that spot in training camp. Austin is also a backup center for us. 8 or 9 Olinemen sounds about right to start the season. The depth order may change in camp or due to injury, but that should be the target.

 

[Hardcore Texan]

Did Studdard get cut?

 

[Blake]

I think they like Butler and Newton @ RT. Odd man out will be swing. Shelley will be backup RG, and backup C, I have no idear.

I think they will draft a tackle somewhere in the bottom 4 rounds of the draft. Also grab an interior lineman as undrafted FA.

 

[ChampionTexan]

did studdard get cut?

ufa

 

[steelbtexan]

I would spend a Rd. 1/3 pick on a OT.

Nobody knows if Butler can stay healthy. A ruptured triceps injury can be a reoccurring thing.

The way I see the Texans needs are WR/OT/CB. I hope they take BPA at a position of need.

A later rd guy that intrigues me is Donald Stepehenson. He test well at the combine and seems to be a great fit for the ZBS. He can play both OG/OT.

 

[welsh texan]

I think they like Butler and Newton @ RT. Odd man out will be swing. Shelley will be backup RG, and backup C, I have no idear.

I think they will draft a tackle somewhere in the bottom 4 rounds of the draft. Also grab an interior lineman as undrafted FA.

In a hypothetical situation where Butler is RT and Newton backup, if Brown goes down wouldn't they put Butler to LT and Newton at RT as he's proven there?

The draft will be telling, I don't think they can afford any established vet in FA, maybe they pick up someone they like at minimum, but if they pass on Oline till the later rounds, we will know they are confident in what they've been grooming the last few years.

I fully expect that whatever happens, they'll take a couple of Oline in the later rounds at the very least, they've long shown that they value plenty of depth on the line, and they will happily utilize practice squad and IR to hold on to projects.

 

[80tothezone]

I would spend a Rd. 1/3 pick on a OT.

Nobody knows if Butler can stay healthy. A ruptured triceps injury can be a reoccurring thing.

The way I see the Texans needs are WR/OT/CB. I hope they take BPA at a position of need.

A later rd guy that intrigues me is Donald Stepehenson. He test well at the combine and seems to be a great fit for the ZBS. He can play both OG/OT.

I got to agree with ya there but I know one thing: no matter who we go after what we get it won't matter these Texans are different.

 

[TimeKiller]

I'd like them to take a look at Zebrie Sanders, I think he could start at RT day 1 and fill in for Brown if need be. Lucas Nix is a mid round OG who reminds me of Brisiel, all work, no talent and mean as hell lol...

 

[Bulls on Parade]

Is 35-year-old Todd Wade still in the league?

 

[281]

Is 35-year-old Todd Wade still in the league?

lol... ugh.

 

[IDEXAN]

Is 35-year-old Todd Wade still in the league?

Even if he was still only 25, don't think he'd be a candidate for the ZBS ? Big Todd was not known for his quicks.

 

[badboy]

I'm expecting a significant if not expensive move by June cuts. There may be another Myer's for a 6th out there. I think our OTs are set and OG is greater need, but on my mock I have us selecting one of each plus a combo.

 

[Ole Miss Texan]

The more I think about it, the more I think we should target an early round Offensive Tackle.

Clearly we don't know the situation with Butler at RT and his recovery, although I'm optemistic he can be servicable. Still, RT and OG are up in the air right now and an OT drafted early could help.

Duane Brown - love the pick more each game that's played. But his contract is up next season. I think we're all in agreement we need to extend him a new offer but, hypothetically, what happens if there's a needy team out there that offers him ridiculous contract that we simply can't afford. Highest paid LT in the league? It's possible. I guess we can use the Franchise Tag on him if needed, but with other guys like Schaub and Barwin... it limits what we could do with them.

Drafting a Tackle in the 1st 3 rounds seems like an idea I'm liking. We finally developed a great OL. Let's keep it up b/c OL is so dang important. A versatile Tackle that could be on the left or right could be great. Even if we want him to start Day 1, if he has do develop 8-16 games behind Butler so be it. We'd be in great shape next season.

 

[badboy]

The more I think about it, the more I think we should target an early round Offensive Tackle.

Clearly we don't know the situation with Butler at RT and his recovery, although I'm optemistic he can be servicable. Still, RT and OG are up in the air right now and an OT drafted early could help.

Duane Brown - love the pick more each game that's played. But his contract is up next season. I think we're all in agreement we need to extend him a new offer but, hypothetically, what happens if there's a needy team out there that offers him ridiculous contract that we simply can't afford. Highest paid LT in the league? It's possible. I guess we can use the Franchise Tag on him if needed, but with other guys like Schaub and Barwin... it limits what we could do with them.

Drafting a Tackle in the 1st 3 rounds seems like an idea I'm liking. We finally developed a great OL. Let's keep it up b/c OL is so dang important. A versatile Tackle that could be on the left or right could be great. Even if we want him to start Day 1, if he has do develop 8-16 games behind Butler so be it. We'd be in great shape next season.

I think Brown will be another Mario situation with at least two seasons of great play going into free agency. He too will get a once in a lifetime offer. And then there is Matt Schaub......

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

I would spend a Rd. 1/3 pick on a OT.

Nobody knows if Butler can stay healthy. A ruptured triceps injury can be a reoccurring thing.
The way I see the Texans needs are WR/OT/CB. I hope they take BPA at a position of need.

A later rd guy that intrigues me is Donald Stepehenson. He test well at the combine and seems to be a great fit for the ZBS. He can play both OG/OT.

If you remember, Butler for the longest time was listed as an "elbow." Then all of a sudden......"ruptured triceps." A triceps tendonitis (which reflects small tears accompanied by inflammation) can and usually is a recurrent problem. The inflammation weakens the tendon progressively if not rested.........until, as in the case of an OT, it can succumb to the constant trauma of needing to forcefully "pushing" the D away............and rupture. Following the immediate surgical reattachment of the tendon to the bone as Butler underwent, with time for rest, and with proper rehab, Butler should be able to return with little or no decrease in effective range of motion, and possibly much stronger and overall more effective than he has been shown to be for quite a while back. Who knows how long he may have been dealing with this chronic problem before the triceps finally ruptured. And local steroid injections were likely utilized for the tendonitis/pain......this in itself would have further weakened the tendon and encourage the completed rupture. I'm very much looking forward to seeing his play a right tackle this year.

 

[aussie_texan]

If you remember, Butler for the longest time was listed as an "elbow." Then all of a sudden......"ruptured triceps." A triceps tendonitis (which reflects small tears accompanied by inflammation) can and usually is a recurrent problem. The inflammation weakens the tendon progressively if not rested.........until, as in the case of an OT, it can succumb to the constant trauma of needing to forcefully "pushing" the D away............and rupture. Following the immediate surgical reattachment of the tendon to the bone as Butler underwent, with time for rest, and with proper rehab, Butler should be able to return with little or no decrease in effective range of motion, and possibly much stronger and overall more effective than he has been shown to be for quite a while back. Who knows how long he may have been dealing with this chronic problem before the triceps finally ruptured. And local steroid injections were likely utilized for the tendonitis/pain......this in itself would have further weakened the tendon and encourage the completed rupture. I'm very much looking forward to seeing his play a right tackle this year.

as per his twitter account yesterday:

Rashad Butler ‏ @RB2cool
Last week of Rehab... THANK GOD!!!

 

[NETxTexanFan]

The O-line was a known strength of the Texans and now it is an unknown. The front office is ignorant. The O-line is the most important part of any offense and not the skill positions. Without at least a good O-line the offense goes stagnant and the skill players are worthless. I can understand not signing Mario Williams but to let the best of the O-line leave was pure idiocy. What will the team have to give up to get the kind of O-lineman in the draft that can actually start and excel from day one? Now focusing on giving Andre Johnson some immediate relief is a moot possibility. The Texans will be lucky to finish with a 10-6 record again. I actually think the team will take a step back and finish 9-7. They will be lucky to win a playoff game. I just don't see the draft addressing losses in a way that will offset them. At least not in the short term.

 

[Norg]

anything on RT is a upgrade from winston so im not worried about it

Has far has RG ehh the only thing its got going for it is it will be injected with some youth with Cladwell and SHelly we got these guys to be the future of RG and well there time is now ......... hopefully the added youth on the right side will bring more 2nd and 3rd level blockin down field making our running game that much better

 

[SW H-TOWN]

I think Brown will be another Mario situation with at least two seasons of great play going into free agency. He too will get a once in a lifetime offer. And then there is Matt Schaub......

It's not that bad. The Texans FO would have to be brain dead not to sign Brown to a contract extension and Matt Schuab is not going to get a huge pay raise, he is already getting at least 8m per year. I have to believe that the FO is looking ahead and making tough decisions now so they can re-sign some or most of their 2013 UFA. It is much more likely that Antonio Smith will be gone after next year. This is why they traded Ryans.

 

[DocBar]

I would spend a Rd. 1/3 pick on a OT.

Nobody knows if Butler can stay healthy. A ruptured triceps injury can be a reoccurring thing.

The way I see the Texans needs are WR/OT/CB. I hope they take BPA at a position of need.

A later rd guy that intrigues me is Donald Stepehenson. He test well at the combine and seems to be a great fit for the ZBS. He can play both OG/OT.

Not picking on you, SBT, but these kind of comments irritate me. It would be more accurate, imo, to say I would spend a 1-3 round pick on an OT if there's one rated that high when we pick. Just drafting a player at a need position at a specific spot is just asking for trouble.
off

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Most fans would not know this, but high ankle sprains should ideally be given ~6 weeks of rest. Caldwell didn't have this. In fact, he tried to play through this notoriously painful injury from the beginning and all through the season.......to the point that mid way through the season, he actually developed a high ankle sprain to his opposite ankle...........and then continued to play through both injuries until the season was over. In my opinion, that takes quite a man. at that position where you severely stress your ankles on every play.

Remember how often you have "heard" me say that an unrehabilitated injury on one side commonly results in compensatory injuries on the other side? Well, for sure, last year you did not see the "real" Antoine Caldwell.......and that's why you see my expectations are for the return of a much better player than we ever saw last year.

 

[Insideop]

Most fans would not know this, but high ankle sprains should ideally be given ~6 weeks of rest. Caldwell didn't have this. In fact, he tried to play through this notoriously painful injury from the beginning and all through the season.......to the point that mid way through the season, he actually developed a high ankle sprain to his opposite ankle...........and then continued to play through both injuries until the season was over. In my opinion, that takes quite a man. at that position where you severely stress your ankles on every play.

Remember how often you have "heard" me say that an unrehabilitated injury on one side commonly results in compensatory injuries on the other side? Well, for sure, last year you did not see the "real" Antoine Caldwell.......and that's why you see my expectations are for the return of a much better player than we ever saw last year.

Well, this is good news and gives me a little more optimism for the O-line this coming season. Just hope Caldwell performs at a high level and proves the nay-sayers wrong. Thanks for your expert opinions CND!

 

[badboy]

Most fans would not know this, but high ankle sprains should ideally be given ~6 weeks of rest. Caldwell didn't have this. In fact, he tried to play through this notoriously painful injury from the beginning and all through the season.......to the point that mid way through the season, he actually developed a high ankle sprain to his opposite ankle...........and then continued to play through both injuries until the season was over. In my opinion, that takes quite a man. at that position where you severely stress your ankles on every play.

Remember how often you have "heard" me say that an unrehabilitated injury on one side commonly results in compensatory injuries on the other side? Well, for sure, last year you did not see the "real" Antoine Caldwell.......and that's why you see my expectations are for the return of a much better player than we ever saw last year.

I'm going with late round back ups at center and guard to train for future as our OLine coach seem good.

 

[Bulls on Parade]

Is there a veteran right guard or right tackle on the free agent market right now that we can sign or is it pretty limited? Obviously it would have to be somebody with knowledge of the zone-blocking schemes but it seems more teams use it these days.

 

[drs23]

Is there a veteran right guard or right tackle on the free agent market right now that we can sign or is it pretty limited? Obviously it would have to be somebody with knowledge of the zone-blocking schemes but it seems more teams use it these days.

As posted by many others as well as myself, don't look for the Texans to be players in FA. Hell, they can't even sign some guys I'm sure they'd like to keep. They'll be sitting on their hands during FA this year.

There're are several kingpins they've gotta ink next season and they're preparing for it and have been.

 

[IDEXAN]

Foster noted the importance of guard Mike Brisiel, who recently signed with the Oakland Raiders. "I'm really happy for Mike Brisiel," Foster said. "He's been a big part of my success. I'm happy for him and his family. But people forget Antoine Caldwell started the entire 2010 season, which was my best year as a pro."
http://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/foster_barwin_confident_despite_losing_leaders/10417060
********************
Thanks Arian because I for one forgot Caldwell started the whole 2010 season, and it's also been reported that his entire 2011 season was hampered by a high-ankle sprain.
This is reassuring to me and maybe others who've been concerned about a falloff in the performance OLine this year with the departure of Caldwell (and Winston) ?

 

[welsh texan]

Foster noted the importance of guard Mike Brisiel, who recently signed with the Oakland Raiders. "I'm really happy for Mike Brisiel," Foster said. "He's been a big part of my success. I'm happy for him and his family. But people forget Antoine Caldwell started the entire 2010 season, which was my best year as a pro."
http://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/foster_barwin_confident_despite_losing_leaders/10417060
********************
Thanks Arian because I for one forgot Caldwell started the whole 2010 season, and it's also been reported that his entire 2011 season was hampered by a high-ankle sprain.
This is reassuring to me and maybe others who've been concerned about a falloff in the performance OLine this year with the departure of Caldwell (and Winston) ?

I think the starting experience of both Butler and Caldwell has been noted. Its one reason I'm not too worried about these losses right now, especially if they can draft some quality at the positions and force these guys to battle it out in camp.

I'm actually a little more worried by this high-ankle sprain though, isn't that what we blamed 3 years of atrocious play by Myers on before he got it together?

Thanks for sharing.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

I think the starting experience of both Butler and Caldwell has been noted. Its one reason I'm not too worried about these losses right now, especially if they can draft some quality at the positions and force these guys to battle it out in camp.

I'm actually a little more worried by this high-ankle sprain though, isn't that what we blamed 3 years of atrocious play by Myers on before he got it together?

Thanks for sharing.

WT,

Myers actually initially suffered his high ankle sprain early in the 2009 camp and missed the first two preseason games that year. He played relatively poorly throughout that year, as would have been expected given that his injury was not given adequate rest. Before that 2009 season, Meyers was never reported to have any ankle problem, even dating back to his Bronco days. He has returned in both 2010 and 2011 to become one of the top centers in the league.

Indeed, it is possible for Caldwell to experience re-injury. But, it is more probable that after being allowed the necessary offseason rest/rehab program, he returns with a markedly improved performance profile.

 

[welsh texan]

WT,

Myers actually initially suffered his high ankle sprain early in the 2009 camp and missed the first two preseason games that year. He played relatively poorly throughout that year, as would have been expected given that his injury was not given adequate rest. Before that 2009 season, Meyers was never reported to have any ankle problem, even dating back to his Bronco days. He has returned in both 2010 and 2011 to become one of the top centers in the league.

Indeed, it is possible for Caldwell to experience re-injury. But, it is more probable that after being allowed the necessary offseason rest/rehab program, he returns with a markedly improved performance profile.

Cool, reason for optimism then! Cheers Doc.

 

[otisbean]

WT,

Myers actually initially suffered his high ankle sprain early in the 2009 camp and missed the first two preseason games that year. He played relatively poorly throughout that year, as would have been expected given that his injury was not given adequate rest. Before that 2009 season, Meyers was never reported to have any ankle problem, even dating back to his Bronco days. He has returned in both 2010 and 2011 to become one of the top centers in the league.

Indeed, it is possible for Caldwell to experience re-injury. But, it is more probable that after being allowed the necessary offseason rest/rehab program, he returns with a markedly improved performance profile.

Great couple of posts Doc! I've read that the excessive taping to the ankles is a root cause of the high ankle sprain, which to my understanding is a more severe injury than a lower ankle sprain. I've also read that excessive taping of the ankle can cause added knee stress. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

From my perspective as a Strength Coach, I know the joints alternate from mobility to stability throughout the body, a mobility joint has a fairly wide ROM capability while a stability joint has a more limited, for example the ankle is a "mobility" joint while the knee is a "stability" joint. From a movement screening perspective, when there is restriction in a mobility joint it will cause stress in the nearest stability as the body seeks to gain motion from somewhere. This can force a joint to do more than it was meant to do. With my clients, if they have generic knee pain (stiff, sore knees) if I work regain proper motion of the 2 nearest mobility joints, hip and ankle, their knee pain seems to ease quite a bit.

As a 30+ year football fan, it seems as if the high ankle sprain is a relatively new occurrence, but it could be that we just get waaay more info now than we used to.

 

[welsh texan]

Great couple of posts Doc! I've read that the excessive taping to the ankles is a root cause of the high ankle sprain, which to my understanding is a more severe injury than a lower ankle sprain. I've also read that excessive taping of the ankle can cause added knee stress. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

From my perspective as a Strength Coach, I know the joints alternate from mobility to stability throughout the body, a mobility joint has a fairly wide ROM capability while a stability joint has a more limited, for example the ankle is a "mobility" joint while the knee is a "stability" joint. From a movement screening perspective, when there is restriction in a mobility joint it will cause stress in the nearest stability as the body seeks to gain motion from somewhere. This can force a joint to do more than it was meant to do. With my clients, if they have generic knee pain (stiff, sore knees) if I work regain proper motion of the 2 nearest mobility joints, hip and ankle, their knee pain seems to ease quite a bit.

As a 30+ year football fan, it seems as if the high ankle sprain is a relatively new occurrence, but it could be that we just get waaay more info now than we used to.

I wonder if the cleats also have an impact on this, as technology allows a more flexible, lightweight shoe to be manufactured, we've seen a lot of injuries become more and more common. One has been the metatarsal injury in soccer, and I'm sure Schaubs lisfranc injury occured in a similar way to how the metatarsal injury would.

Maybe increased flexibility throughout the foot itself leads to added strain on the ankles?

 

[IDEXAN]

I think the starting experience of both Butler and Caldwell has been noted. Its one reason I'm not too worried about these losses right now, especially if they can draft some quality at the positions and force these guys to battle it out in camp.

I'm actually a little more worried by this high-ankle sprain though, isn't that what we blamed 3 years of atrocious play by Myers on before he got it together?

Thanks for sharing.

And here's another "glass half-full" take on may part: maybe there wasn't really that much difference between Winston and Butler, it's just that they played Winston because he was the higher-paid guy, actually much higher-compensated than his former U teammate. And as we know that's what also got Winston fired.
My biggest concern about Butler is his durability, his toughness. It's not just that he went on IR last year, he's had other serious medical issues in his history. For example, I think he's on medication indefinitely for stomach/bowel problems which untreated prevented him in the past from retaining adequate body weight/mass to play in the NFL football as an Olineman ?

 

[otisbean]

I wonder if the cleats also have an impact on this, as technology allows a more flexible, lightweight shoe to be manufactured, we've seen a lot of injuries become more and more common. One has been the metatarsal injury in soccer, and I'm sure Schaubs lisfranc injury occured in a similar way to how the metatarsal injury would.

Maybe increased flexibility throughout the foot itself leads to added strain on the ankles?

Im not sure on that, the foot is a tricky thing. Lot's of different theories, some like supportive orthotics, some favor minimalist shoe design to allow the intrinsic muscles to work. To me it makes sense to allow the muscles of the feet to do their job, BUT with cleats and the pressure points they would cause, this might be a bad thing???

I can tell you this, if I owned a sports teams and had hundreds of millions of dollars invested in players I would invest millions in strength and conditioning, injury prevention and rehabilitation, and have the best medical staff that money could buy. I'd want to protect my investment as much as possible.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Great couple of posts Doc! I've read that the excessive taping to the ankles is a root cause of the high ankle sprain, which to my understanding is a more severe injury than a lower ankle sprain. I've also read that excessive taping of the ankle can cause added knee stress. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

From my perspective as a Strength Coach, I know the joints alternate from mobility to stability throughout the body, a mobility joint has a fairly wide ROM capability while a stability joint has a more limited, for example the ankle is a "mobility" joint while the knee is a "stability" joint. From a movement screening perspective, when there is restriction in a mobility joint it will cause stress in the nearest stability as the body seeks to gain motion from somewhere. This can force a joint to do more than it was meant to do. With my clients, if they have generic knee pain (stiff, sore knees) if I work regain proper motion of the 2 nearest mobility joints, hip and ankle, their knee pain seems to ease quite a bit.

As a 30+ year football fan, it seems as if the high ankle sprain is a relatively new occurrence, but it could be that we just get waaay more info now than we used to.

OB, you’ve brought up a concept which is unfortunately so often ignored by those who should know better........that is, the concept of “mobility” and “stability” joints. This plays a major role in a subject that I’ve brought up numerous times in discussions of joint injuries...........i.e., when one joint is injured and not given adequate time to heal, risk of injury to an adjacent or contralateral joint increases immensely. The concept you have brought up goes a long way in explaining the serious contributor to this phenomenon.
And, yes, I firmly stand by the thinking that excessive ankle taping can and does lead to undue stress and risk to especially knee injury. Taping an ankle is actually much more inhibitive then an ankle brace, because it is wrapped so much tighter around the ankle. When you try to move laterally (side to side), your ankle will be protected from another sprain. But your knee will be at a high risk for an ACL tear since, outside of flexion and extension, the ligaments in the knee cannot move very far without tearing. If the ankle is all taped up and your body cannot get the lateral mobility from the ankle, it will move up to the next joint (the knee) and get it there. Unfortunately, since the knee is not mobile, it will simply move outside it’s natural and safe range of motion and one of the ligaments can easily tear.

Furthermore, relying on taping will actually weaken the muscle and hinder rehab of the related muscle groups. Just as you do with your clients, it is wisest to make them rely mostly on strengthening their”supporting” muscles, not tape or a brace, to rehab them quicker and safer. That’s where they will regain their ROM and gain protection from recurrent injury most predictably and most quickly.

BTW, a perfect example of not adhering to these principles in the “real” world, is the frequent use by grocery workers, warehouse stockers, and heavy laborers of those G-d awful wide black belts with suspenders meant to protect the back. These have been shown to weaken the back, since the back muscles are not forced to strengthen, and, in fact, to result in the opposite effect of which they were meant.

 

[steelbtexan]

Not picking on you, SBT, but these kind of comments irritate me. It would be more accurate, imo, to say I would spend a 1-3 round pick on an OT if there's one rated that high when we pick. Just drafting a player at a need position at a specific spot is just asking for trouble.
off

Yo're not hurting my feelings, I agree with your premise. There is value in rds 1-3. I should've made my thoughts clear. Guys like Brandon Brooks, Jeff Allen, Cordy Glenn, James Brown etc... represent great vlue in rds 1-3 IMHO and the good thing is that each of these guys can play either the RG/RT position. So drafting versatile guys like this is killing 2 birds with 1 stone.