JohnsonFan
Rookie
atleast okoye looks good..
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- Thread starter Hagar
- Start date
I see, so expectations are higher for all other positions (and other team's picks) than for our highly drafted dlinemen?? So now, all of a sudden, dline (only on our team) is the MOST difficult position in football to play?? I don't think so..... It appears that just because WE drafted them folks want to give them a free pass. Again, this is not beating up on MW and AO but, our FO for drafting them ahead of where they should have been.
Wolf
100% Texan
depends on what you are looking for
I am not defending anyone but...
easier to show up in stats with say, 80 yards receiving than 1 tackle.
granted our DL is paid (whole DL) is paid alot of money to make plays
Leahmic223
Veteran
To those saying he has shown no flashes or has made no plays...are we forgetting that his fumble he forced was a MAJOR reason we won that game. Simply because we had a extra possesion, and if I remember correct we won because of that extra possesion.
The Giants game he had a series where all he did was dominate. Even the T holding him told him to slow down.
The Jets game he made a few plays also...
The Dolphins game he tipped a pass that could have lead to a Dolphin win and a Texan loss.
So I would disagree with the 'He's shown no flashes or has made no plays'
I remember in the Jets game he just tossed the guy who was blocking him into the RB which made the RB fall...
Maybe that's all he's done, but he has shown flashes of dominance here and there and he's made some big plays. I really disagree with he's shown no flashes. No one remember that Giants game he dominated pretty much that first half and slowed down (kinda disappeared) the second. That could be his foot, but the point is he disappeared the 2nd half.
The Giants game he had a series where all he did was dominate. Even the T holding him told him to slow down.
The Jets game he made a few plays also...
The Dolphins game he tipped a pass that could have lead to a Dolphin win and a Texan loss.
So I would disagree with the 'He's shown no flashes or has made no plays'
I remember in the Jets game he just tossed the guy who was blocking him into the RB which made the RB fall...
Maybe that's all he's done, but he has shown flashes of dominance here and there and he's made some big plays. I really disagree with he's shown no flashes. No one remember that Giants game he dominated pretty much that first half and slowed down (kinda disappeared) the second. That could be his foot, but the point is he disappeared the 2nd half.
JohnsonFan
Rookie
i just wish mario played like a 1st pick 
2BCF
All Pro
i just wish mario played like a 1st pick
Don't we all.
Apparently, Dean's "cone of uncertainty" has engulfed Mario.
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
I dunno how many times I've got to post this sheet...one more apperently. Up untill that wensday, the day befor the Reggie Bush house stroy broke...no one offered a trade. No one. Mario was the best d-lineman on the board. Period. They were not going to take Bush.They put a phone call into the guy two days befor the story broke. And when they came back his demands were so outragous...the house story made Bush untouchable. They were not going to take Vincent. All you gotta do is watch the guy work a quarter and any sane person can see the guy can not pass the ball. Couldn't do it in highschool. Couldn't do it in college. And won't ever do it. Damn sure didn't do it last night. Their only two choices of that draft was to get a move down deal or pick Mario Williams. That was it. All of the revesionist crap then about Mario, and now about Okoye ...is just that crap. They weren't going to take a WR. Or a Rb or a FS. They passed on FS four times last April. After the forth time, I got it .
Well the two guys the last time I checked weren't dead yet. Instant gratifacation is a fools dream. I'm sorry they've missed your comfort level on what a first rounder is supposed to be. But at least give them the season. I saw them both hustleing and giving their all today. Paper says we've got a good D-line coach. Just got to let it play out. I know one thing for a fact neither one of them is going anywhere for a few seasons. That's your starting two on the right side untill '10. Wanna jump up and down and stomp your feet and hold your breath for three years, be my guest. The Draft is not a science. It is an art. All I know for a fact is that Okoye has an elite first step and Mario is a 1%er. They may well bust out. But it won't be because they don't play RB or QB. They now have WR2 in the fold. Won't see him there untill '09. But after four seasons, they have him now. I'm just curious which WR in '06 and '07 you would of picked over Jones ? Deacon Jones got the crap beat out of him the first three years befor he got up to speed. I don't think it will take our two that long. They're just too good of athletes. Just need a six pack of patience.
Malloy
Hall of Fame
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
i just wish mario played like a 1st pick
There are so many things ungood with this defense in 2007.
They are young.
They are questionably coached.
They are semi-patched worked together with maybe guys not playing in their best positions.
The veteran mentors are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver and Jeff Zgonina.
Young guys, questionable coaching, no older dominate players as vets, and guys playing out of position = ew. (Hey, sounds like the 2002 offense).
Yeah, I'd like Mario to dominate like a first pick, but what I'd really like is to see something that makes me optimistic about the defense this year. The only thing you can really say right now is that this is only the second game of the preseason, and they are young and might have a bright future. (Maybe if they have a miserable enough time here, their bright future is with some other team).
BattleRedToro
Thread Killer
Also, in Deacon Jones first year the Rams only had DE Lamar Lundy at that point. The next year they drafted DT Merlin Olsen and then in his third year the acquired DT Rosey Grier was acquired from the NY Giants to complete the original Fearsome Foursome. It should also be noted that although they rotated positions Jones normaly played LDE.
jgl35
Rookie
Peppers did not play against the Eagles.
Yes you got it ! The questionable coaching part is whats getting me . In the AZ game i saw shift right and then shift left defensive line stunts . Those are used as run defense , like in power counter offense line shifts . This against a team that has a pocket passer with sub 4.0 receivers ! All that does is give a quarterback a clear view of the field . Add to that scissor stunts that had MW swinging around inside after a tackle sealed off creating a hole in the middle . Mario looked like he was going into pass coverage before he managed to get to the hole , and of course the pass had been thrown by then . The only scissor stunt done correctly was done on the other side by thomas johnson for a sack .
The1ApplePie
Hall of Fame
Waiting 3-4 years for D-Linemen to get good is ridiculous. One year, I can see it, but the position isn't hard enough to take 3-4 years to learn.
Brando
Hall of Fame
Mario did not do much today, but let's make sure we focus on him given that our team sucks more than ever in the last six years.
The most reasonable post I have read so far. I am happy with the team overall. Maybe people should stop focusing on just one player and enjoy the game instead of fretting.
I enjoyed every part of this team last night.
with Mario and Okoye you see two opposite sides of the why it may take longer than expected on a DLmen.
Williams was used to just dominating players because he was simply bigger, stronger, and more athletic. He really did not have polished techinque, well maybe even no real technique. He can't just do that as a pro and now he has to learn. Also, most pass rushing types have quickness off the ball which is the one physical asset Mario does not have. Honestly, I think in the 4-3 he should play the LE or SDE and his best position maybe 3-4 DE. I would listen to an argue that he maybe better in you let him bulk up and play DT. For his skills RDE or the pure pass rushing position maybe his worse.
Okoye has the quick first step and technique, but literally needs to get physically stronger. The Texans probably need to pair him with a bigger run stuffing type at some point. I think it would be a mistake to play Okoye more 35 maybe 40 plays a game. don't think his body is mature enough to stand-up to the pounding. Simply Okoye needs a couple of years of weight training and general maturing of his body.
In the meantime, what you want to see from these guys is not just gettiing manhandled and flashing the pure skills that they were drafted for.
The fly in the Mario ointment is that a big part of his upside were the explosiveness and quickness measurables at the combine. I think the quick first step is more of a mental aspect Marion hasn't displayed. If that even makes sense.
I agree that Okoye will need time for his body to mature into that of a man, not just an exceptionally strong teenager.
The1ApplePie
Hall of Fame
I agree. Both Mario and AO look like they would both be better 3-4 DEs than their current positions
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Who are you talking to? For the second post straight you have put words in my mouth and added more players to the mix. Please read my posts and comprehend them before heaping your b.s. to me. You lost all credibility when you started in on your VY stuff. He wasn't even the guy I wanted to take. As far as the trade offers, no one knows that as fact. That is what we were told. VY passed the ball against us and had the highest completion percentage his last year in college so I'll venture to say that the guy can throw and learn as time goes on. You are just showing that much of your talk revolves around the anti-VY sentiment. I'll say it for the hundreth time, there is a difference between "a #1 pick" and "the #1 pick." You can cry about being handcuffed with the pick all you want but it was still our choice.
I never said Okoye was a bust or anything in any post. I like the guy. He is young and raw. I think he could develop and liked what I saw in the college All-star games. When we drafted though, that wasn't my target. I like him though. I never said anything about Jones and love the guy. I never have called Mario a bust. I've only spelled out the things that make me and it seems others nervous. I even prefaced it by saying I need to see full games.
So PLEASE read before writing and stop trying to pick fights where there are none. I feel like this is a Carr thread again.
AND there has been guys the last few years that have made immediate impacts on the D-line from the drafts. For every Deacon Jones and Strahan there is a Kearse, Freeney, Ware, etc, etc. I even saw the Cowboys late round choice Spencer making some plays at the 3-4 LB yesterday. So I really don't like the arguments because all of us can find examples on both sides and make a good argument.
P.S.--Sorry to be harsh but my one pet peeve on the board is to be misquoted or to have words put in my mouth. I'm not sure where saying I need to see Mario more, I'm concerned about effort and I want to see him be the #1 guy can translate into: bust, I don't like Okoye, I don't like Jacoby, and I'm busting on the whole team.
Malloy
Hall of Fame
How about that stop on 4th and 1?
Nonsense, the sky is falling!!
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
Ok. Before everyone starts piling on me. Let me say that I think our D line's play could have been better. But...
That statement above is gross exageration. It's not like Mario or Amobe are getting pushed all over the field.
Could they do a better job of getting of getting off of their blocks?
Sure.
I just watched the the 1s on my Tivo again. They are not getting blown off of the line of scrimmage. They are holding the point of attack.
I have a few questions for the critics.
Which 2 D linemen were everyone calling a bust last year?
Which 2 D linemen have everyone singing their praises this year?
How long have these 2 D linemen been in the NFL?
Were you one of the ones calling them a bust last year?
Carry on.
Also, in Deacon Jones first year the Rams only had DE Lamar Lundy at that point. The next year they drafted DT Merlin Olsen and then in his third year the acquired DT Rosey Grier was acquired from the NY Giants to complete the original Fearsome Foursome. It should also be noted that although they rotated positions Jones normaly played LDE.
I love this picture!!
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
I can't believe I'm saying this but...
This is the most well reasoned and thoughtful post in this thread.
Brando
Hall of Fame
I agree.
Heath Shuler
SPEED KILLS
What concerns me is how slow of a jump Mario gets off the snap. While watching the game live I thought ND was offsides on a bunch of plays, but after watching the game again it was just Marios slow jump. Im also concerned about Mario taking some plays off.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
I am concerned about Williams being a crappy RE for the next 3 years.
At the moment he sucks big time. Period. End of story.
It's preseason, but the early returns on Mario show that he is pretty much a worthless football player with no heart, no skills, and another workout warrior.
Lets hope the Texans can overcome the meddling owner who has hurt the team with the resigning of Carr and drafting of Mario.
At the moment he sucks big time. Period. End of story.
It's preseason, but the early returns on Mario show that he is pretty much a worthless football player with no heart, no skills, and another workout warrior.
Lets hope the Texans can overcome the meddling owner who has hurt the team with the resigning of Carr and drafting of Mario.
After reading this thread, I'm going to go ahead and admit I'm probably being way too impatient. With the way that Babin is playing now, 3 years after being drafted, and the bust label that everyone put on him, it's probably a wise thing for me to wait a couple of years for Mario to develop the skills necessary to take it to the next level.
I guess that all the patience that I was preaching with Carr, and having nothing to show for it, is maybe translating to being impatient now.
He showed flashes last season with the bum foot, though. I don't know why I shouldn't expect to see a few flashes now.
I guess that all the patience that I was preaching with Carr, and having nothing to show for it, is maybe translating to being impatient now.
He showed flashes last season with the bum foot, though. I don't know why I shouldn't expect to see a few flashes now.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
Re: Questionable defensive coaching
If you look at the backgrounds of the defensive coaching staff, it is not like we have the most dominant coaching staff in the league. It's been my belief that if we were to have an offensive minded head coach, I'd like to see a quality coach heading up the defense.
Richard Smith was not the Texans first choice. There is very little in his background that inspires confidence in his abilities.
The defensive line has its second set of coaches. The DC admits that they misused Mario on the line last year.
They said in the broadcast that the line gets to make its own line calls. But didn't discuss that any further. So basically a line composed of a 20 year old, a guy who came out as a true junior, someone that came of the practice squad last year, and an old guy get to figure out what they are going to do at the line.
Blind leading the blind? I'm not saying they are horrible, but I can't say I have a lot of confidence in the staff. I'd feel better about the development of our young players if there was a defensive staff with more of a track record running the show, developing and chosing players to fit their system, whatever the heck that is.
(The offensive side of the ball has its own inexperience, but at least Sherman has a lot of experience and the majority of the staff is on the same page with Kubiak from a philosophical standpoint. And though they weren't great in 2006, you could tell a coaching difference. The defense from a coaching perspective has shown me more bad than good, so that's where I'm coming from in saying that it is questionable).
Sure would like to hear where you're going with that one.
If you look at the backgrounds of the defensive coaching staff, it is not like we have the most dominant coaching staff in the league. It's been my belief that if we were to have an offensive minded head coach, I'd like to see a quality coach heading up the defense.
Richard Smith was not the Texans first choice. There is very little in his background that inspires confidence in his abilities.
The defensive line has its second set of coaches. The DC admits that they misused Mario on the line last year.
They said in the broadcast that the line gets to make its own line calls. But didn't discuss that any further. So basically a line composed of a 20 year old, a guy who came out as a true junior, someone that came of the practice squad last year, and an old guy get to figure out what they are going to do at the line.
Blind leading the blind? I'm not saying they are horrible, but I can't say I have a lot of confidence in the staff. I'd feel better about the development of our young players if there was a defensive staff with more of a track record running the show, developing and chosing players to fit their system, whatever the heck that is.
(The offensive side of the ball has its own inexperience, but at least Sherman has a lot of experience and the majority of the staff is on the same page with Kubiak from a philosophical standpoint. And though they weren't great in 2006, you could tell a coaching difference. The defense from a coaching perspective has shown me more bad than good, so that's where I'm coming from in saying that it is questionable).
Malloy
Hall of Fame
hard to say, I keep trying to convince myself that the reason our D has been... less than exciting, is because it's pre-season and that we're keeping all the goodies in the box until the regular season starts. I'm not sure that is the case, but I hope it is
I'm really surprised by some of the posts I'm seeing in this thread.
Mario negatives from people I wouldn't have expected it from. But as I have not seen him play in this preseason, I have to take their words, because they are people I trust.
However, I saw alot of the things that made Mario our #1 pick last season, and I find it hard to believe his effort has dropped so far.
I was not disappointed with Mario in the least bit all of last season, & I'm still optomistic, that he'll be one of the premier defensive players in the league for a long time to come.
My excuse for why we aren't seeing those numbers translate to the stat sheet??
As a whole, our defense is still pretty young. Our defensive line more so. Mario, Maddox, TJ, Amobi, Babin... our best defensive lineman, are all what 3 years or less in this league??
Had Mario gone to Tampa Bay with Simeon Rice, and Warren Sapp, we'd be crying that we didn't take him. Or if He went to play in Philadelphia, opposite Jevon Kearse, and swapping inside/outside duties with Darren Howard, we'd drool over a player that could do what Mario would do on that team.
OR if he played opposite Dwight Freeney, we wouldn't question Indy's dominance of the AFC South.
Our best defensive lineman is an undersized DE we've been trying to get to play LB for most of his professional career.
On this team, It's going to take a little time before Mario can dominate. That's just the way it is.
Mario negatives from people I wouldn't have expected it from. But as I have not seen him play in this preseason, I have to take their words, because they are people I trust.
However, I saw alot of the things that made Mario our #1 pick last season, and I find it hard to believe his effort has dropped so far.
I was not disappointed with Mario in the least bit all of last season, & I'm still optomistic, that he'll be one of the premier defensive players in the league for a long time to come.
My excuse for why we aren't seeing those numbers translate to the stat sheet??
As a whole, our defense is still pretty young. Our defensive line more so. Mario, Maddox, TJ, Amobi, Babin... our best defensive lineman, are all what 3 years or less in this league??
Had Mario gone to Tampa Bay with Simeon Rice, and Warren Sapp, we'd be crying that we didn't take him. Or if He went to play in Philadelphia, opposite Jevon Kearse, and swapping inside/outside duties with Darren Howard, we'd drool over a player that could do what Mario would do on that team.
OR if he played opposite Dwight Freeney, we wouldn't question Indy's dominance of the AFC South.
Our best defensive lineman is an undersized DE we've been trying to get to play LB for most of his professional career.
On this team, It's going to take a little time before Mario can dominate. That's just the way it is.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Its only preseason, so I'm not really worried yet, but just rather annoyed. If were going into week three of the regular season and Mario is still doing his "invisible man" act.........thats when I'll start to get upset.
hard to say, I keep trying to convince myself that the reason our D has been... less than exciting, is because it's pre-season and that we're keeping all the goodies in the box until the regular season starts. I'm not sure that is the case, but I hope it is
Well, maybe I'm oversimplifying things, but I wanted to see the level of play of the defensive linemen without blitzes and stunts. Not happy with what I'm seeing.
Blitzes and stunts are meant to compliment the pass rush, not to make up for the lack of. Game film with a good offensive co-ordinator can sniff out the difference and take advantage of it.
Your comments on Mario make perfect sense. Because he is thinking and not merely reacting that gap is the difference between using the quickness that the tests show he has and what we have seen on the field.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
lol...hilarious
The unintentional humor on message boards is the best part sometimes. Reminds me of those espn commercials with the guys talking out of their keysters
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
You make some excellent points about the defensive staff. I have to admit. I asked, " Richard Who?" when the coaching staff was put together last year. However, they are the coaching staff and we can only hope they know what they are doing.
You might be right about this but I'd always heard very different. I'd heard that teams that were without dominant D-linemen had to blitz or use stunts in order to disguise/hide those personnel weaknesses. I hear announcers and analysts say all the time that its considered a luxury to have a dominant pass rush from your front four and be able to drop seven back into coverage and feel good that the opposing QB won't "have all day" to throw.
I can't wait for the day that our D-line gives our defense that "luxury". But we obviously aren't there yet.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
you run stunts for the same reason you run counters and misdirection on offense. You have to mix it up and not become predictable....players are too good in this league to just do the same things over and over.
Richard Smith wasn't Kubiak's first choice. I forgot who it was, someone on a team out west, IIRC. Maybe TC remembers. But whoever it was, wasn't allowed to talk to us by his team.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
Frank Bush...and we signed him this offseason. I think this may be Frank Bush's defense next season. I don't anticipate Smith being around next year.
Wolf
100% Texan
frank bush comes to mind that Kubiak wanted yet last season they wouldn't let him talk to us.
No argument from me on that. It seems like some of us expect Mario, et. al. to just run over the opposing O-linemen. Like you said, the players are too good for that.
And I have to admit, I get tired of seeing Mario "boxing" with the tackles and not even making said tackle give ground. If the tackle engages Mario (or whoever) and gets him involved in a game of pattycake for 2-3 seconds, then the tackle has won that battle because the play has most likely moved past him.
I don't know if that is lack of effort as some have said or lack of understanding that he's wasting time by "boxing" - but it needs to be fixed.
How many sacks do you guys think Mario left on the table? I plan on looking at the recording later, but I don't remember a ton of sack opportunities on Leinart.
Thanks to the NFL Network, I've been able to watch a lot of preseason games, thus far. And I've noticed that the refs have swallowed their whistle on a ton of offensive holding. I went back and looked at the stats, and that seemed to bear out in the sack totals. This weeks games averaged about 4.3 sacks per game, slightly below average. When you take away a couple of games where the Pats and the Packers went blitz crazy, the numbers go down to around 3.5. I have a feeling that when I watch the replay on this game, I'll see a ton of no calls on both sides of the ball. Whether that will play out this way in the regular season is TBD.
Thanks to the NFL Network, I've been able to watch a lot of preseason games, thus far. And I've noticed that the refs have swallowed their whistle on a ton of offensive holding. I went back and looked at the stats, and that seemed to bear out in the sack totals. This weeks games averaged about 4.3 sacks per game, slightly below average. When you take away a couple of games where the Pats and the Packers went blitz crazy, the numbers go down to around 3.5. I have a feeling that when I watch the replay on this game, I'll see a ton of no calls on both sides of the ball. Whether that will play out this way in the regular season is TBD.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
to me it's not a matter of getting a sack...it's a matter of beating your man in some way on any given play. I haven't seen him win any individual battles....and he is supposed to be a "freak" that has elite speed and strength....I just don't see it when he plays.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
I agree with you here. I'm not especially worried about sack numbers per se as much as seeing him come off the edge and and force some plays...mess up the other teams timing.
More like chicken-fighting rather than boxing.
I dunno . . what I don't see, is any sort of an effective spin-move. Who knows, maybe he's saving that for the regular season.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
welcome back. why not try and bring Simeon Rice to town to help our DL and possibly show Mario some veteran tricks and techniques.
i want mario to be good and think he has all the physical tools to do so, I just don't know if he has the drive and love for football/competition that it takes. at the end of every play he is normally standing upright but away from the action. he doesnt disengage from blockers and is happy just doing the 2step with his blocker making no impact. he needs a veteran or a coach to get in his face and let this guy no that his level of effort is unacceptable.
maybe they are 'saving' him for the regular season and not running many stunts and he is just trying to stay injury-free. at some point, Mario is what he is. Let's hope he doesn't end up being what he currently is, because that would be a disaster of biblical proportions.