Will we finally see the real 3-4 this Sunday ?

Discussion in 'Texans Talk' started by nunusguy, Sep 8, 2005.

  1. nunusguy

    nunusguy Hall of Fame

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  2. GP

    GP Go Texans!

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    No. The 3-4 is horrible. Even if it shows up, it still blows.

    My top rants:

    1. The utter lack of "return on investment" regarding the 3-4, which seems to be soooooooo cool and neat right now. We're getting pushed around, and the 3-4 asks its down linemen (all THREE of them) to tie up multiple offensive lineman so the LBs can "make the play" on the ball carrier/QB/etc. Right.

    2. Cutting players who showed with their performance that they EARNED a roster spot, but were shown the door. What's the motivation to play well during the preseason when you just get cut anyway? And there's two players who definintely earned a roster spot this year, but were cut.

    3. The Texans inability to utilize a TE. If you ain't gonna' pass more than 1 ball a game to the TE....why even have one? Keep players like Swinton in a TE roster spot, and get rid of the traditional TE that we don't even use unless it's a run blocking situation. But even then, just having our TE out there shows the opponent we're probably running the ball. It's no big secret that we're one of the worst teams in the NFL in the utilization of a TE as a receiver. Some teams (the more successful ones) actually use their TE in a consistent manner and it pays off by keeping opposing defenses off balance as to whether they drop a LB to cover the TE, etc.

    Anyway...back to the topic at hand: No, the 3-4 should be retired like Jerry Rice.
     

  3. Yea I'm sure the Steelers and Patriots are thinking of ditching the 3-4. :loser
     
  4. Walter Belhaven

    Walter Belhaven Rookie

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    I've never really been a fan of the 3-4. It's always seemed too susceptible to the run for my liking. Plus, the whole idea of the 3-4 is to get pressure on the QB which we never seem to be able to do.

    Yes, some of the great defenses in recent NFL history have been 3-4 defenses but each one has had a STUD OLB:

    -Steelers had Greg Lloyd
    -Giants had LT
    -Chiefs had D Thomas
    -85 Bears ran the 46, which was a variation of the 3-4 if I'm not mistaken. Of course, they had HOF'ers all over the field.

    Without a pass rush, I just don't see much benefit from it.

    Also, let's face it. Capers isn't going to be here forever. When he departs, we're (in all probability) going to have to rebuild the defensive personnel around the 4-3. Sort of like when the Oilers scrapped the Run and Shoot and had no TE's on the roster.
     
  5. powda

    powda Hall of Fame

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    i'd like to think we will see "our" 3-4 finally...a controlled blitz crazy caper's defense. but i doubt it. losman has wheels and mcghee is quick to the corner. fangio made the comments himself. i think our olb's will blitz ofcourse but i think theyre going to spend a lot of time in the flats and on a contain blitz.

    i would expect to see wong and greenwood blitz a lot inside however.

    that being said im thrilled at the prospect of peek having an oppurtunity to start ,and i look forward to watching how he does when they do let him go at the qb.

    in defense of our 3-4, we had 3 players at new postions last year in our secondary ,and we've had a trend of injured defensive linemen. to top it off...wong is not and never will be a great blitzer...babin was a rookie learning on the go...and foreman was horrible in coverage. the defense didnt really have the luxury of calling a blitz non stop.

    when 3/4's of your secondary is either a rookie or at a new poistion the dc has to protect them with lb's in coverage. we may or may not have better talent in our lb core this year but we do have more speed and versatility.
     
  6. aggiechance

    aggiechance Rookie

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    I agree...I'd rather force this kid to beat DRob or PBuc while he is running for his life than give up 6 yd pass plays all day with plenty of time to throw. After watching the A&M game, I'm NEEDING to see some really aggressive defensive plays.
    :texflag:
     
  7. HardKnockTexan

    HardKnockTexan All Pro

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    With the right personel on the field the 3-4 defense, and variations of it, is the toughest to play against and gameplan for. In the past 3 seasons we ran the 3-4 even though we didnt have the personel. We were always lacking in some area. Our secondary has always been pretty solid, except for Matt Stevens ofcourse. Last season we finally got the right Defensive Linemen in place with the addition of Robaire Smith. He's had 2 trainingcamps and a full season now to learn his new role. Our secondary is one of the best in the league on paper, hopefully this will translate into great play on the field this year. This is the first season that we've had the Linebackers that are needed in a 3-4. Our slowest L-B (Wong) was the fastest 2 seasons ago. Foreman was out of possition. Sharper was out of possition and that's why both of them are gone. I think we will all be in for a pleasant suprise this season. But honestly, I have a hard time critisizing my home team and always expect the best from them.
     
  8. jr0ck

    jr0ck Veteran

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    WOW, i'm with SES on the whole :loser thing, but let me go into a little more detail:

    1. so your infering that three 300+ DLmen can't "tie up" an offense line and create gaps that the LB's are supposed to fill? [dr evil]riiiight[/dr evil]

    well it can, and more importantly, DOES happen,
    sincerely,
    ted washington, casey hampton, richard seymor, wince wilfork, ty warren, arron smith and last but not least (for this short list) kimo von oelhoffen

    ...and that is just a fraction of this years gap filling 3-4 linemen. to say that the texan's don't execute the 3-4 to it's strengths is one thing, to say "retire" a proven coaching philosphy is entirely different. this just in...THE 3-4 WORKS!

    *the following is OT but is in response to the above qouted post*

    2. so the texans are the rouge team in the NFL that has to decide on roster cuts with a handful of player's on the cusp of being adequate talent in the league? this complaint makes me go :brickwall because i think if you, gp, were a fan of any team you would have this complaint because this descion is made in 31 other places in the NFL. if and i would venture to say that everybody who EARNED a roster spot is on the team. :shrug: ...but that's just me.

    3. bruener, murphy and rivers will do just fine this year. they will serve the same purpose as 80% (unofficial estimate) of the rest of the league's TE's, block and catch 10-35 check down/dump off reads by seasons end. we've seen all of them catch the ball (bruener had a couple 10+ yd gains last pre-season...which just shows he is capable, NOT that he will) and our top three on the depth chart are all adeqaute blockers.

    come to think of it, i'm kinda regretting repsonding to your last two rants because it's hard for me to see where they fit in a thread about 'seeing the 3-4 defense work in houston'...
     
  9. rmartin65

    rmartin65 I'm Score

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    the 3-4 is good if executed properly
     
  10. Double Barrel

    Double Barrel Modified Simian

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    I'm not the biggest fan of the 3-4, either, but heck, it's what our team has implemented. So we'll have to deal with it.

    I've read recently that Coach Capers said this is the first year that we've had the personel to run his 3-4 defense. It's all about speed. While I always liked Sharper, Glenn, and Foreman, let's be honest, these dudes are not going to get faster.

    The jury is out. Come Sunday, I expect to see lots of QB hurries, knockdowns, pass blocks, and poor decision making by the Bills offense because of the disruption our speed and quickness is causing. And I want to see at least 5 good sacks by this defense.

    I don't think we've really showed much in pre-season, so the Bills don't have much game tape to review. This will work to our advantage as Capers pulls out the surprises and their QB loses focus from getting hit from all sides.

    At least, that's how I've got it working in my head.... :thumbup
     
  11. tsip

    tsip Hall of Fame

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    "Yea I'm sure the Steelers and Patriots are thinking of ditching the 3-4. "

    I love these kinds of statements!! Question. Do the Steelers/Pats achieve
    desireable results with their 3-4? YES. Do the Texans? NO. Are the Steelers
    and Pats perineal(sp) winners? YES. Are the Texans? NO. I could go on
    but I've just got to savor the logic of this post, as IMO it is exactly what
    is wrong with comparing the Texans to other teams. Oh, almost forgot-
    Cowboys are using the 3-4 for the first time this year which means-
    according to 'certain' posters- that it will take years to learn and 'gel'
    (favorite word) in this defense plus get all the right players,etc.etc.--hate
    the Cowboys so I'm looking forward to a losing season from them because
    of their new defense.
     
  12. the wonger need food

    the wonger need food Hall of Fame

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    The Texans have not had the personnel to run a 3-4 since day 1. Specifically a mammoth NT, a hard-hitting, sure tackling SS and playmaking LB's.

    The philosophy here is completely skewed. Bring players in and train them to do things opposite of their strengths. Then overpay them and hope that they will perform up to their salary.
     
  13. tsip

    tsip Hall of Fame

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    "I've read recently that Coach Capers said this is the first year that we've had the personel to run his 3-4 defense."

    ...so our defense will be good this year or our we waiting for the time
    to 'gel' statement?
     
  14. And I love these crazy takes. I only put out the Steelers and Pats because they are very successfull at using the 3-4, so in essence of this argument, the 3-4 systems does work. Under Capers who coached the Steelers 3-4 he was successfull. There are quite a few other teams that use the 3-4 as well, I didn't figure I needed to explain that you since I thought the Steelers and Patriots were enough ammo, but I guess you need more. San Diego uses, and hey lookie there, they made the playoffs. You can't blame the scheme if the scheme is repeatly providing good results with teams that use it. I really doubt our team would be any better if we were using a 4-3, but hey I guess you know more than Capers.
    Did it ever occur to you that building a team, regardless of defensive scheme, isn't all roses. If Dallas has a poor season, you are going to pin it on the defense instead of the offense whos weapons include a faulty line, Bledsoe and Keeshawn?? You are very funny, please keep posting you make me crack up. :yap
     
  15. tsip

    tsip Hall of Fame

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    amazing, your post that the Pats/Steelers should abandon the 3-4 was
    in respone to a poster saying the Texans should let it go, right? His
    reasoning was the lack of success by the Texans using the 3-4--Pats
    and Steelers have had success...if the Texans had that same success,
    there would be no complaints with the 3-4, so please explain the logic/
    reasoning of your post. If 31 NFL teams have success with the 3-4, sure
    keep it....but, if yours is the 1 team that has failed, do you still keep it
    to maintain the status quo? Personally, I don't care what defense the
    Texans run if it translates into win but you'll never hear me defending
    losing team logic against winning teams...some folks want results, some
    folks make excuses---you tend to get what you want...bottom line is
    the standard of effort/results a person will accept....and the time frame
    in which desired results must be achieved. And, if my place is on Comedy
    Central for sticking by my post, that's fine--but, when I'm wrong, I'll admit
    that too--just show me some results... :yahoo:
     
  16. Grid

    Grid Hall of Fame

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    Some day down the road.. I wouldnt mind seeing us implement a defense like the Falcons/Buccaneers/Colts run. That being a 4-3 that focuses on smaller, and faster defenders.

    However.. I like the 3-4, and have no problem with us running it. Especially since Capers is one of the masterminds behind the modern 3-4 defense.

    Yall say that every effective 3-4 had a stud OLB, but the Patriots dont have one.. the steelers dont have one. They have good OLBs but no one who is setting the league on fire.

    I also disagree that the 3-4 is weak against the run. In theory it is supposed to be.. but it hasnt shown itself to be so far.
     
  17. The logic is easy, other teams, not just the Steelers and Patriots mind you, run the 3-4 and several teams have converted from a 4-3. Ever figure out that our 3-4 defense is not as good because we are barely now getting it all together? It's not so hard to fathom considering our organization just started out 3 years ago. In fact it was our 3-4 defense that has kept our records respectable considering all of our offensive woes and defensive injuries. We are using a cancer from another team as our primary starter, we are using a deep round rookie SS, our best CB is in only his second year, 3 of our linebackers were not in the same position they were last year, with our 1st pick in the draft we get a backup lineman. And all this drama has happend year after year.

    yea sure, it must be the 3-4.
     
  18. HJam72

    HJam72 Hall of Fame

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    I wish we had run a 4-3 from the start. I just prefer it to the 3-4, but I don't like changing things that don't need to be changed and the 3-4 is a good, legitimate defense. Switching to a 4-3 would mean having to change personnel and giving everyone time to gel. More time waisted. More losing. You can win with either Defense when you get the right players and some experience and depth.

    I think the Cowboys are making a mistake trying to switch to a 3-4, although I'm not a Cowboy fan. Just be good at what you do.
     
  19. marroncito

    marroncito Rookie

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    As far as I understand it, the 3-4 operates on 3 principles. First, that the offensive line is dominated at the Center. Your Nose Tackle has to drive the center into the backfield on every play. This opens up holes in the line and collapses the pocket at the same time. Usually you'll have at least one other down lineman rushing the passer, usually in a different direction than the NT. This forces the Oline to adapt to him as well. The second principle is disgusing were the 3rd and 4th rusher are coming from. If done correctly, it will throw the off tackles out of wack. Besides the center, the Oline shouldn't know who they'll be blocking each down. In the 4-3 it's pretty obvious. Guards pick up DT's. The center helps doulbe or pick up the MLB. The tackles hand the DEs. It's pretty much the same every down. In a well executed 3-4, the tackles should never know who their blocking so that they're off balance. For example. The NT and RDE rush. the ROLB blitzes toward the center. The RILB blitzes toward the edge trying to end around the RT. Who does the RT block? The ROLB lined up closer to him or the RILB coming off the edge? Either way, who does the RG block the ROLB or the RDE. The center will be locked up with the NT who should be driving him back and flushing the QB. There are blocking schemes against the 3-4. Even with them, the point is that the Olinemen have to think every play and the D can just attack. If you think too much in football, you lose. The Olinemen have to know who they're going to pick up on any particular blitz. The 3rd principle of the 3-4 is to disguise coverages. It works great against quick passing attacks that try to get the ball out. If the QB misreads the coverage at all, bad things can happen to the ball. Also, it's got to throw a QB off for a second to see a DE covering your TE's dump off route. Yea you could probably get it in there, but it makes the QB heistate. If I counted correctly, that's 3 so I'll leave it at that.
     
  20. infantrycak

    infantrycak Lead Moderator Staff Member

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    This is something a lot of people miss. Look at the top LB's making INT's and you will see the 3-4 heavily represented--Donnie Edwards, James Farrior, Bruschi & Wong. Wong & Peek combined from the ROLB position for 4 INT's last year. Not bad at all. All of Jax's LB's combined for 1 INT last year and all of the Tacks LB's combined for 2 last year.
     

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