What is leadership exactly? im confused.

Discussion in 'Texans Talk' started by Grid, Jan 18, 2006.

  1. Grid

    Grid Hall of Fame

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    I know this has been beat to death.. but people keep dogging on Carr's leadership abilities..and im just wondering where it is coming from. What little blurb or picture do you have that proves he isnt a leader?

    Im just wondering what people expect.. I mean.. does he need to go into convulsions of excitement everytime a play is made? Would that prove that he is a leader?

    I know..thats stupid..but what is it, exactly, that is lacking? Im sorry but as someone who isnt in the lockerroom.. and isnt a close friend of any of the players.. I cant tell you definitively that he is or isnt a leader. Id like to know what little peice if info I missed that showed that he isnt one.

    I honestly think that all these people claiming that Carr isnt a leader.. are incorrectly associating leadership skills with winning. A player can lead his team just fine, but that doesnt mean they will win.. it is still up to the players to play hard, and the coaches to make the right decisions. We know the coaches werent doing their part... So where does it all fall on Carr, exactly?

    please.. enlighten me.. im totally in the dark on this whole leadership thing.
     
  2. Jack Bauer

    Jack Bauer All Pro

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    I wish I could, but I don't understand it myself. From everything I see and hear, he has the leadership abilities that are needed in an NFL QB. I haven't heard a peep out of anyone on the team regarding David's "lack" of leadership. The only place I find it is on this message board.
     
  3. Meloy

    Meloy Hall of Fame

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    It is encouraging others to do what is needed when they might not feel like it. When you fall down hurt, exhausted and get back up knowing the next step you may get knocked down again but you get up anyway. When you accept responsibility when it is truly someone else's fault. I think David is a leader.
     
  4. MorKnolle

    MorKnolle Hall of Fame

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    I have similarly wondered where these opinions about Carr's apparent lack of leadership come from. To me the fact that he's been sacked more in four years than any QB in the history of football and keeps coming back and not complaining about it speaks volumes about him, and I like the fact that when he's running to get a first down he doesn't slide to protect himself and come up short, he dives head first and takes the punishment and pain for the benefit of the team. There aren't many QBs that will do that in this league that has created numerous rules to protect QBs. He may not be the most vocal guy on the team, he may not be the best QB in the league, and our team certainly isn't the best in the league, but that doesn't mean Carr is a bad leader.

    I haven't heard anything either other than people on the message board and Vince supporters in the local media.
     
  5. Sportsfan

    Sportsfan All Pro

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    Well said.
     
  6. jerek

    jerek Pro Hobbyist

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    Leadership is synonomous with winning the Rose Bowl title game.

    It is what allows you to take a team full of comparably elite athletes and one of the winningest coaches in modern college football and put them all on your back.

    It allows you to make blanket statements regarding caliber of players based on sense of possession of the word "it."

    :brickwall

    In all seriousness, though, I think leadership does not have to be spoken, though some leaders are vocal.

    Leaders are those that people will look to in difficulty. Leaders are those who are reliable: you can count on them to play their part, and to hold you accountable that you will play yours. Leaders want victory, will do everything in their power to get it.

    Leaders are able to get people to do the things they do not want to do, in order to achieve the things they do want for themselves.

    As it relates to the DC vs VY argument:

    Is Carr a great leader? Honestly, I don't think so. I don't think he is a great leader. Is he a bad one? I doubt it. I think he is a four-year veteran who has not quite yet found his voice on this team, a guy who is admired but has not made that assertive push yet, has not had that series of successes that help to define a leader and garner his respect.

    I know for a fact we cut our 2004 leaders, Aaron Gleen and Jamie Sharper. Good job, Cass. I don't think your QB has to be the leader: he is in a sense by default, because he is the signal caller on your offensive side. But even at that, he does not have to be your voice among voices.

    I am no best friend of any of the players or their families. I have seen the team together, interacted with them personally, away from the public eye and in their own element where they are free to be themselves and not put on a face, and simply in gauging them, I would comfortably say that there is not animosity towards Carr.

    I think that Carr has potential to be just the sort of leader he was drafted to be. I also believe that, circumstances being what they have been, he has not developed into that leader just yet. We will see if he does, soon enough.
     
  7. ledzeppelin229

    ledzeppelin229 Hall of Fame

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    The bottom line is record. When the team is losing, people want to get rid of players. When people want to get rid of players, theyll make stuff up or make wild guesses that can't really be proved one way or another to justify their point. When Carr and the team as a whole start playing better, these people will crawl back into their holes. Or they'll go cheer for VY and the Titans.
     
  8. Big B Texan Fan

    Big B Texan Fan Hall of Fame

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    At about mid-season Marc and Rich(610) had Brian Pitmann (I think that's his name) our deep snapper was on the show when they were on site @ Hooters or something.
    When Brian was aked by Marc "So who would you say the leader of the team is. With us being 0-6(or whatever it was at the time) I'm just curious as to who is gonna lead us out of this funk".
    Brian startd saying guys names like Wong, Payne, and Walker. At that point Marc should've left it alone but he asked "Who would you the leader is of the offense".
    Brian had one of those Southwest Airlines moments where he wished he was somewhere else. It went like this..."Uhhhh...ummmmm....uhhhh...well, ....uhhhmmmm, Weigert is pretty vocal ya know crackin' jokes". Which promted Marc and Rich to say "wow, that's pretty sad" Pittman didn't try to clean it up either.
    I swear it. If you can get thru call and ask them to play cuz they played it a few times later on.

    Does anyone remember that?
    Now I know he's just the long snapper but c'mon, he's on that sideline.
     


  9. HoustonFrog

    HoustonFrog Dallas Frog

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    That is the same stuff that happened to McKinney and they almost asked point blank if Carr was the leader on offense. He never named him. I just wrote this in another post but people dogged me saying that the Mckinney thing was taken out of context and that the rumors about David not taking extra snaps or dedicating himself to the team as leader was bunk and hearsay. Carr has answered the charges before and says he spends time with his family instead. Well McClain pretty much alluded to those today in his piece. He has the same conclusion as me and others. You may not like him but he is closer to the team than any of us are by a long shot.

    "Kubiak is a former quarterback who coaches quarterbacks. He knows that analyzing a quarterback takes so much more than simply watching tapes of games and practices.

    Kubiak has to find out what Carr is made of - if Carr is willing to pay the price off the field as he is on the field. Can Carr be consumed with becoming one of the NFL's best - a process that requires 24/7 dedication during the season and something close to it in the offseason.

    Kubiak has to decide if Carr can become a dynamic team leader - a trait he hasn't developed in his first four seasons."
     
  10. cadahnic

    cadahnic All Pro

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    A leader.

    Someone who can make another person do something that they inherently dont want to do and enjoy it. Roosevelt

    To me that is a leader, and the man that that has to be is Kubiak. This to me is the definition of a leader, in work, play or anything. I dont know much about the armed forces, but every man I know that has fought in combat has sad this is very true. Most people do not really want to die, for any cause, much less the idea of America, but leaders true leaders make them enjoy being a flyboy or a grunt. Now I got this statement from a man that served during the Vietnam war and he told me if you lead this way and strive to do it this way then you will be a great leader.

    As for Carr is he a leader on this team? Yes. He is the QB so he leads the offense. Is he the type of leader that is synonomous with what most people feel are leaders? NO. He does need to get into people more, and hold them accountable. Yes he holds himself accountable and will do it often, but what about when his line is crap, or Bradford misses another ball, or Armstrong runs a bad route and does not get open. Talk to them, yeah he likely does, but call them out for all to see make them understand that winning is the only thing he is going to settle for. If it is going to be his team he has to take it, and like Jerek S. said he has not yet.
     
  11. Big B Texan Fan

    Big B Texan Fan Hall of Fame

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    I don't want to see Kubes legacy get tarnished 'cuz he can't turn him around.

    Note to all the people who thinks Kubes is gonna get ahold of this and put us into contention right away with the bush pick.
    He's gonna be new at his position at a new locale
    His cordinators will probably be line coaches going from their team to ours with a more responsible role.
    3 new guys, with new jobs, at a new place, working together for the first time with a team that just finished 2-14. Can you say 3-13 season 1, 6-10 season 2, 9-7 season 3. The 3 seasons of carrs' option are up, no playoffs, what do you do?

    I can't wait 4 kubes but he ain't fixing anything right away. Especially with carr behind the wheel.
     
  12. texplayer2

    texplayer2 Veteran

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    I think leadership in the Pro's can come from many different fronts. In college the star QB,RB, defensive standout,or a Coach usually is the guy you look to to win the game or give you the fire. Not everyone at that level is able to lead and are not going on to the pro ranks.
    At the next level I would think leadership comes from Experience, Consistency, Respect for others on your team and Exceptional Ability. Everyone in the professional ranks of any endeavor hold these things in high regard. Leaders are not always the guy who is hooping and hollering.(reference T.O.)
     
  13. chall8

    chall8 Rookie

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    Leadership is a lot of different things, depending on the situation and environment.

    On an NFL football field it's about rallying your teammates, with words and/or actions, to play up to and beyond their capabilities.

    There are many intangible qualities of leadership. Charisma, personality, character, attitude, just to name a few. Some have more "natural" leadership ability than others, but in many cases leadership can be learned. But in all cases leadership requires confidence.

    In some ways Carr has demonstrated tremendous leadership ability (character, attitude), and in other ways he has failed miserably (getting players in the huddle to look in his eyes and then their guts on the field for him on the next play). If you're an NFL QB then this is the type of leadership that matters most.
     
  14. Grndzro

    Grndzro Rookie

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    I brought this up in another thread and I guess I will need to reiterate it here. Lets use Drew Brees for an example. The first couple of years he was on a team with marginal talent and many said he lacked leadership skills. Suddenly given a reason to compete (drafting of Rivers), and better talent he has became the leader of the team. I will tell you this from expierance, leadership is a trait that manifest in several diffirent ways. Brett Favre is a leader and he celebrates every time he scores a touchdown, yet when Carr does he is said to be to giddy and should act like he has been there. Every leader is diffirent, and until you are on the team or in the huddle none of you can honestly say if he is a leader or not.
     
  15. Big B Texan Fan

    Big B Texan Fan Hall of Fame

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    How does that song go.....Feels like the first time, feels like the very first time.
    :jam: :headbang:
     
  16. texplayer2

    texplayer2 Veteran

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    The Only problem with confidence is(reference T.O.) . That is a byproduct of Experience and Consistency. T.O. has plenty of Confidence in HIMSELF.
     
  17. Runner

    Runner Hubcap Diamond Staff Member

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    About the Pittman thing, long snappers don't practice with the offensive or defensive units, so he isn't really part of the nitty-gritty work by those units. He would just have a "team as a whole" viewpoint.

    The knock against Tim Duncan early in his career was he wasn't a leader. Now that he has three rings he's a quiet guy who is a very strong leader by example. He comes to work everyday, he isn't above anyone else, etc.

    They used to talk up Favre's leadership when they were winning. This season there was a lot of questions that he's holding the team back. Is he no longer a leader, or does his supporting cast affect how he is viewed?

    Leadership is many different things and perceptions change with won/loss record, big games, demeanor, etc.

    As to Carr? I would have liked him to change plays in the huddle until Pendry benched him (likely) or gave in (yeah, right). But that is just me from a long way away - I don't put a lot of stock in my own opinion on this. Imagine the flack Carr would take if he was benched for insubordination. I bet the players would have respected him though.
     
  18. Tale Gator

    Tale Gator ________

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    Leadership is not allowing your team to go 2-14.
     
  19. Double Barrel

    Double Barrel Modified Simian

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    leadership...leadership....

    It's one of those things that can be hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

    For instance, Tom Brady...now there is an obvious leader for his offensive unit. You just know it as a fan, without even being close to the Patriots or in the locker room. You can just tell by the way he plays and the way his team responds to him.

    Who can say for sure that David Carr is, or is not, a leader? None of us really knows for sure. But just judging as an innocent bystander, a football fan, a casual observer...you still can't tell if Carr is a leader or not. It's just not obvious the way it is with other QBs in the NFL.

    It's almost a situation where if you have to ask about it, then the answer might be right in front of us? idonno:
     
  20. chall8

    chall8 Rookie

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    Be careful not to confuse "confidence" with "cockiness" or "arrogance".

    To have a career in the NFL you have to have confidence at a pretty high level.
     

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