Was Dan Reeves completely wrong?

Discussion in 'Texans Talk' started by thunderkyss, Feb 14, 2010.

  1. thunderkyss

    thunderkyss Salem Poor

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    You know the story. Bob McNair didn't know which way was up, so he brought in Dan Reeves to help him sort things out. Dan Reeves said the talent was there to win... we needed a new Coach.

    4 years later, we're talking about how bad the talent was, & that's the main reason we haven't been able to win early in Kubiak's career.

    What's the real scoop?
     
  2. IlliniJen

    IlliniJen Hall of Fame

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    <insert my pink soap here>
     
  3. Honoring Earl 34

    Honoring Earl 34 Hey Koolaid

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  4. dalemurphy

    dalemurphy Hall of Fame

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    I think that's just code for, "you need to fire your coaching staff".
     
  5. TexansFanatic

    TexansFanatic Extremist

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    I could be way off but I've always thought Reeves wanted Capers' job.

    So, what does he do? He says: "In my opinion, the talent's there. Heck, I could win with it...."

    The talent wasn't there. Kubiak built this team from scratch.
     
  6. Goatcheese

    Goatcheese Nightmare Over

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    Since most of the players from that team are working at McDonald's now, I'm going to go with Reeves was completely wrong.
     
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  7. Second Honeymoon

    Second Honeymoon Hall of Fame

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    There was talent there but we had garbage at QB. Any talent we did have was wasted during those years. As for defensive talent, I thought we had a pretty good thing going until they got rid of Aaron Glenn. He gave us a veteran presence and our defense was tough the first few years and had some talent. Letting guys like Marlon McRee leave because you don't want to pay your playmakers didn't help either. He made plays for us but for some reason he was sent packing. I could never understand Casserley's moves. I actually think Capers did a pretty good job. Even Vince Lombardi himself would have been a losing head coach with Carr starting at Center.

    That being said, we didn't have a lot of depth in those days and that was one of our achilles heels and it showed in our W-L record even with pretty good frontline talent.
     
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  8. dalemurphy

    dalemurphy Hall of Fame

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    When Reeves was brought in, guys like Jamie Sharper and Aaron Glenn had been cut. Here's, as memory serves, the team's talent:

    Seth McKinney
    Victor Riley
    Todd Wade
    Seth Wand
    Zach Weigert
    M. Bruener
    AJ
    Corey Bradford
    J.Gaffney
    J. Mathis
    Dom. Davis
    D.Carr
    Rosenfels
    Rob.Smith
    J.Babin
    A.Peek
    Jay Foreman
    K. Wong
    Dunta
    Faggins
    CC Brown
    G.Earl

    that's about all I can muster.
     


  9. D-ReK

    D-ReK RAWWWRR!

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    If Reeves thought a team this boasted our starting lineup was just missing a coach, then yes, he was completely wrong. Warning to those who are squeamish, this is very, very ugly:

    QB - David Carr
    RB - Domanick Davis for 11 games, Jonathan Wells for the rest
    FB - Moran Norris
    WR - Andre Johnson and Jabar Gaffney for 13 games, Corey Bradford and Derick Armstrong for the rest
    TE - Mark Bruener and Marcellus Rivers
    OT - Victor Riley and Todd Wade with Wiegert swinging out to RT after Wade's injury
    OG - Chester Pitts, Zach Wiegert, Milford Brown, and Fred Weary
    OC - Steve McKinney

    DE - Gary Walker and Robaire Smith mainly with Travis Johnson, Jerry DeLoach, and Junior Ioane filling in due to injuries
    NT - Seth Payne
    OLB - Shantee Orr and Antwan Peek mainly with Jason Babin getting a few starts
    ILB - Dashon Polk and Morlon Greenwood after Kailee Wong got injured
    CB - Dunta Robinson, Phillip Buchanon, and DeMarcus Faggins
    FS - CC Brown and Marcus Coleman
    SS - CC Brown and Glenn Earl

    It didn't help matters that the only decent players on the team that didn't miss significant time due to injury were Dunta, Payne, and Pitts, but that team overall was just garbage. No coach could have won with this talent, but it's partially Capers' fault that these players were here. Remember how Morlon Greenwood was supposed to be the next Sam Mills and we were going to be so much better because we were younger and faster?
     
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  10. GP

    GP Go Texans!

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    The first batch of Texans felt very much like a group of guys who were about 3 years away from retirement. Year 4 rolled around and things got pretty fragile. In a hurry.

    You had a child (Carr) among men and it showed.

    McNair surely could not have thought he had significant OFFENSE talent in place, or he wouldn't feel the need to retain Carr to finally figure out if it was the coach, the offensive line, the receivers, the offensive system itself, etc.

    McNair wanted an outsider's opinion. I guess he got one.

    I do find it funny that Dan Reeves was the consultant, Kubiak became the coach and Schaub eventually became the QB. There's some triangulation there:

    Reeves-Broncos-Kubiak

    Reeves-Falcons-Schaub

    Not that there's any TRUE conspiracy or anything, but sorta' funny in a way.

    We should do a 6-degrees Of Separation with how you can tie everyone in the NFL to Gary Kubiak and his years at Denver. LOL.
     
  11. m5kwatts

    m5kwatts Hall of Fame

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    Reeves has an axe to grind
     
  12. Hervoyel

    Hervoyel The Right Track

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    Think about something though when looking at that team. Try to look at the players in the context of that time and as we saw them at that time.

    Exempt David Carr because nobody in 2005 was going to tell Bob McNair that David Carr wasn't a winner just waiting for a coach to tap his ability. It wasn't going to happen. Some of us still believed that he might still be a viable option. It's beside the point though because no answer other than "You can win with David Carr" was going to be accepted so set that issue aside completely.

    RB: Domanick Davis, Vernand Morency, and Jonathan Wells. Domanick Davis was more or less a thousand yard back for three years. There weren't many people thinking we'd never see him play again that off-season. He was our RB and people back then talked about Carr-Johnson-Davis as being our "triplets" (which just seems so ridiculous in hindsight). Jonathan Wells was a special teams player at best but Vernand Morency was still just a rookie RB. That's hope right there. I can understand Reeves saying we had talent here. It's just that we lost Davis and he never came back. Depth no, but talent absolutely. Moran Norris was a perfectly good FB.

    WR: Andre Johnson, Jabar Gaffney, Corey Bradford. We know about AJ of course but Gaffney is talent. Gaffney is still playing today and he's a very serviceable #2 on any team where the QB is capable of more than looking at the #1 and then dumping the ball off to the RB coming out of the backfield. Bradford was never anything more than a really fast guy with questionable hands. That's why he was available and that was what he did. He's depth at his best on a team with a legitimate 1 and 2. That was the 2005 Houston Texans by the way. We just didn't have a QB who could see both of them in the same play (much less all three of them).

    OL: Chester Pitts can play. Fred Weary could play too but he had trouble making it onto the field with the previous coaching staff. He did just fine when Kubiak got here until he broke his leg. He looked like he was finally going to be the lineman we hoped he might be when he was picked but admittedly he wasn't a great fit for what we do here since Kubiak arrived. Still he was getting it done. Todd Wade played for the Redskins after leaving here and started 10 games for them in 2007. In his career he started 96 games over 8 years and the only place he was lousy was here. Figure it out guys. He was more of the "Frankenstein" big guy than a quick athletic offensive lineman but then the Texans seemed interested in those types at the time. Seth Wand was another one. With his admittedly limited skill set he still managed to stay in the league until 2008. Steve McKinney was serviceable at center. There was talent on this line. Again, not much depth but some of these guys weren't bad and none of them sucked as much as David Carr made them appear to. Don't you think Reeves knew that when he told Bob McNair he could win with this talent?

    DL: Seth Payne and Gary Walker were talented defensive linemen at the end of their careers (10 and 11 seasons resepctively). Robaire Smith played in 14 games last year and had 43 tackles for Cleveland. He's in his 10th year now. Clearly we needed help on the DL and Dan Reeves probably would have drafted Mario first overall in 2006 too to try and address it. We'd just added TJ and nobody knew he was going to be a complete slug at the time. This was still a serious problem for the Texans in 2005 but what team doesn't have weaknesses? Obviously something(s) needed fixing here or Bob McNair wouldn't be calling in consultants. Reeves probably would have tried moving Babin back to DE like we ended up doing too.

    LB: As bad as he was Morlon did start 108 games in 8 years. Jason Babin clearly wasn't getting it so we needed a replacement for him. Orr and Peek were still showing flashes and a lot of us kept hoping one or both of them would break out. Clearly neither one was ready when we started them in 2005. Orr, Babin, and Peek were our starters most of the year. Where was the leadership? Where was the veteran presence? Wong was without a doubt our best LB that year but we lost him to injury and never got him back. Not really. Again though there is some talent here. Not a lot but some. As always no depth to speak of.

    DB's were Dunta Robinson and Petey Faggins with C.C. Brown and Marcus Coleman at the safeties. Dunta has always been considered talented and Brown was getting tons of hype in 2005. I remember him being talked about as some kind of bright spot back there. Coleman was never as good a safety as he was a CB and should never have been moved but we had a couple of pieces (in most peoples opinion) back there.


    Very thin but there was talent here. A better coach than Capers could have gotten some more wins out of that team. There was a core of players (some are still here, others are playing elsewhere in the league) to build on. Keep in mind that some guys left here of their own accord, others were cut loose because they weren't the type of player at their position that Kubiak wanted. Wade and Wand for instance were doomed from the start because they were plodding road grader types and we wanted more athletic linemen. They both went somewhere else where they fit the mold and stuck around for a while.

    Some guys were young and still getting the benefit of the doubt. Others were new here and were expected to improve over their 2005 performance. Still others were good but got injured and were lost permanently or never came back at their pre-injury levels.
     
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  13. nero THE zero

    nero THE zero Hall of Fame

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    Are we sure that Reeves said the talent was there to win?

    From what I recall, Reeves advised (1) that we needed a new coaching staff and (2) that we needed a new QB (he was a VY fan IIRC). I don't remember any mention of him advising that we "had talent to win"
     
  14. Texans_Chick

    Texans_Chick Utopian Dreamer

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    He said that David Carr wasn't the problem and recommended that Carr come back. But he also liked Vince Young.


    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2325442


    Dan Reeves said that David Carr was not the problem. He liked David Carr. But that he also wanted to review Vince Young. (Though it is stupid stupid stupid under a salary cap system to extend Carr's contract three years if you think VY is the guy):

    He says that after their first year in 2007.

    I think the Reeves thought Vince Young was the right fit talk came from a Chronicle article that didn't say that but had that headline. That link explains it better.
     
  15. beerlover

    beerlover Site Contributor

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    Reeves told McNair what he wanted to hear & was compensated generously :money:
     
  16. Texans_Chick

    Texans_Chick Utopian Dreamer

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    I don't recall Dan Reeves saying that the team had the talent to win. He recommended that David Carr come back.

    He also thought that the Texans needed a more aggressive passing game to compete in the NFL, and that's why he recommended Kubiak.
     
  17. thunderkyss

    thunderkyss Salem Poor

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    I can see this line of thinking. But my what boggles me, is that Casserly got to graciously exit. He was even allowed to spend $30 mill on Anthony Weaver, which road blocked our efforts to improve the DE position for a few years.
     
  18. thunderkyss

    thunderkyss Salem Poor

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    :hides:
    :texan:
     
  19. Texans_Chick

    Texans_Chick Utopian Dreamer

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    There's the point of view that:

    1. All that draft staff was Casserly's. They'd been spending the year evaluating the draft. By the time Kubiak was hired, it would have been difficult to get a whole new staff. Might as well use Casserly, but have the focus be what Kubiak wants.

    2. Weaver didn't roadblock the DE position. They drafted Mario Williams. Switching from the 3-4 to the 4-3 meant you needed lots of help. They thought Weaver would be the guy, and they thought wrong. It also didn't help that Weaver got hurt.

    3. I like that the Texans allow staff members to have gracious exits. I used to do HR law, and generally speaking, gracious exits are good to the people who leave but more importantly, good to the people who stay. You can escort someone out with security and not let them say goodbye, but then it tells all the remaining people that you might do them that way too, no matter all their hard work.

    On the football level, Casserly had some good relationships with a number of the players who stayed--no sense kicking him on the way out. It demonstrates to the outside world that your business is a good one to work at.

    Allowing people to leave and save face is valuable. You never know when an exiting person may end up helping you down the road too.

    Overall, the best example of this concept is the Raiders. Al Davis is a nutball, he trashes people on the way out, refuses to pay them, and now it is hard for him to attract good staff members and free agents without overpaying or getting total noobs that no other team would possibly want. McNair is trying to give the Texans the reputation of being a good place to be for players and staff.

    4. It might be fun to publicly blast a guy on the way, and list all their failings but it does nothing positive for your organization either in the short or long term. Sometimes class behavior is also good for business.
     
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  20. Texan_Bill

    Texan_Bill Subscribed Contributor

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    2006 (The team Kubiak inherited):

    Roc Alexander
    Charlie Anderson
    David Anderson
    Jason Babin
    Brad Bedell
    C.C. Brown
    Kris Brown
    Mark Bruener
    Phillip Buchanon
    David Carr
    Earl Cochran
    Jameel Cook
    Lional Dalton
    Owen Daniels
    Ron Dayne
    Glenn Earl
    Troy Evans
    Demarcus Faggins
    Mike Flanagan
    Samkon Gado
    Kevin Garrett
    Morlon Greenwood
    Drew Hodgdon
    Von Hutchins
    Andre Johnson*
    Derrick Johnson
    Thomas Johnson
    Travis Johnson
    Bennie Joppru
    N.D. Kalu
    Cedric Killings
    Vonta Leach
    Derrick Lewis
    Wali Lundy
    Anthony Maddox
    Alfred Malone
    Roy Manning
    Jerome Mathis
    Dexter McCleon
    Steve McKinney
    Vernand Morency
    Eric Moulds
    Shantee Orr
    Seth Payne
    Antwan Peek
    Bryan Pittman
    Chester Pitts
    DaShon Polk
    Jeb Putzier
    Dunta Robinson
    Sage Rosenfels
    DeMeco Ryans
    Ephraim Salaam
    Lewis Sanders
    Guss Scott
    Edell Shepherd
    Jason Simmons
    Charles Spencer
    Chad Stanley
    Michael Stone
    Chris Taylor
    Kevin Walter
    Fred E. Weary
    Anthony Weaver
    Zach Wiegert
    Mario Williams
    Eric Winston
    Kailee Wong
    Dexter Wynn

    2009 Roster:

    Xavier Adibi
    David Anderson
    Dominique Barber
    Connor Barwin
    Fred Bennett
    Kevin Bentley
    Chris Brown
    Duane Brown
    Kris Brown
    Tim Bulman
    John Busing
    Khary Campbell
    James Casey
    Shaun Cody
    Brian Cushing*
    Owen Daniels
    Andre' Davis
    Zach Diles
    Joel Dreessen
    Nick Ferguson
    Arian Foster
    Rex Grossman
    Anthony Hill
    Tim Jamison
    Andre Johnson*+
    Jacoby Jones
    Vonta Leach
    Glenn Martinez
    Brice McCain
    Ryan Moats
    Antwaun Molden
    Chris Myers
    Amobi Okoye
    Chester Pitts
    Bernard Pollard
    Glover Quin
    Jacques Reeves
    DelJuan Robinson
    Dunta Robinson
    Brian Russell
    DeMeco Ryans*
    Matt Schaub
    Steve Slaton
    Antonio Smith
    Kasey Studdard
    Chaun Thompson
    Matt Turk
    Kevin Walter
    Chris L. White
    Mario Williams*
    Eugene Wilson
    Eric Winston
    Jeff Zgonina

    * = Pro Bowl
    + = All Pro
     

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