TexanFan881 said:
Good point, good post, but that list doesn't take into account any rushing stats.
That is Vince as a passer.
Death to Google Ads! Texans Talk Tip Jar! 🍺😎👍
Thanks for your support!
VY: Once in a lifetime athlete?
- Thread starter Wolf
- Start date
Good point, good post, but that list doesn't take into account any rushing stats.
That is Vince as a passer.
TexanFan881
All Pro
thunderkyss said:
The fact is that in college Vince was able to use to his advantage that he could run to help him in the passing game. Leinhart didn't have that as a QB and he was still just as successful. What I am saying is that when NFL defenses can stop Vince from running, what can he do when he's forced to stay in the pocket and to throw the ball? I for one don't think that much, but I'm not going to say he can't because I can't see the future. Leinhart has proven he can throw in the pocket and be consistant, and I think if we're going to consider Young we should be considering Leinhart too.
dirty steve
Veteran
You guys don't ever get sick of talking about this?
Plus, do you really think an offensive coordinator is going to dumb down the offense and let VY do whatever he wants? It hasn't done Michael Vick a whole lot of good to work in an offense where he is reigned in.
Plus, do you really think an offensive coordinator is going to dumb down the offense and let VY do whatever he wants? It hasn't done Michael Vick a whole lot of good to work in an offense where he is reigned in.
texan279
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
Young rushed for 12 TD's and Bush rushed for 16 Td's in 2006. And as far as me packaging info to boost my argument, here let me just lay it all out...
Passing Attempts
Young 325
Leinart 431
Completion percentage
Young 65.2
Leinart 65.7
Passing Yards
Young 3036
Leinhart 3815
Touchdown passes
Young 26
Leinhart 28
INT's
Young 10
Leinhart 8
Yards per attempt
Young 9.3
Leinhart 8.9
Leinhart is better in every category except yards per attempt, and if you think I am going to sit here and multiply Young's YPA, TD's, and TD's per pass attempts to the difference of attempts between Young and Leinart, that's insane, no stats in any sport are calculated like that.
TexanFan881 said:
Fair enough.....
although I'm not partial to only Vince. I'd be happy if we drafted Omar Jacobs, or Reggie McNeal as well. But not with the #1 overall.
dirty steve said:
Have you watched the Saints in the last 6 years??
Houston has been dumbing down it's offense for the last 3 years.
And Denver's system is tailored to a mobile QB.
texan279 said:
Then use the simplified version. the QB rating you don't want to believe.
CoastalTexan
Waterboy
NFL teams do not play out of spread offense where it is out of the shotgun 90% of the time. Vince did. There is a reason why all the scouting folks agree Leinart is the TOP QB in this draft.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
Just as an FYI--the college QB rating system weighs TD's much more heavily than INT's. The reason VY's rating is higher than Leinart is his less TD's per attempt count more against him than VY's more INT's per attempt. Not saying the system is wrong, just explaining it a little.
texan279
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
Based on your philosophy then, David Carr was a better college QB than Young was in college becuase Carr had a better QB rating his senior season than Young did. And I guess that Carr is a better NFL QB than Eli Manning, Brett Favre, Aaron Brooks, Michael Vick, and Daunte Culpepper since Carr had a better QB rating than all of them last season...
So college stats are the Bible when it comes to scouting prospects. Then I guess Andre Ware and David Klingler are soon to be getting busts in the Hall of Fame. NO, their just busted and VY will be to. No NFL team will focus a offensive gameplan around him, he will have to learn it. He couldn't do that at Texas and that is why Brown and Davis said F it, we want to win. Of the 3 top QB's, he is the better ATHLETE and the least ready to take over a NFL offense. That's the gamble.
And by the way, who was his leading reciever? David Thomas with 50 receptions. That is almost 1/4th of VY's completions. That tells me they went with a safe ball control gameplan and that is why his efficiency rating is so high.
Like I said before. Show me a game he beat a good team with 300yds and 3TD's through the air and I will believe his ability a bit more.
And by the way, who was his leading reciever? David Thomas with 50 receptions. That is almost 1/4th of VY's completions. That tells me they went with a safe ball control gameplan and that is why his efficiency rating is so high.
Like I said before. Show me a game he beat a good team with 300yds and 3TD's through the air and I will believe his ability a bit more.
Ok, Carr was a better college QB than Vince..... his game hasn't translated well........ maybe it's those intangibles they keep talking about, the "it" thing. Sometimes, college players don't make it in the NFL... we think we can see it, and predict it, then you have your Jake Delhommes, your Kurt Warners, Your Doug Fluties, etc.... Now, Brett Farve....... had a bad year.... a bad, bad year...... but still threw for 3880yards, and 20 TDs...... Culpepper only played 7 games, was thinking he was going to jail, and wonedering why his team didn't back him up(in court).texan279 said:
KSig44 said:
No, it's not the bible....
This thread started out with a few posters saying Vince wasn't even a quarterback. I posted those stats, just to show he ranks pretty well, with the guys people around here think are QBs......
UT will still be using the same offense, with two other QBs, not Vince Young. So I don't know if it was just for Vince. you can call it simple if you want, but it works. We'll watch this year, to see if the system produces VY type stats.
NFL networks just reported that Tennessee is leaning towards Vince........ not Matt, not Cutler......... Vince.....
I guess a few experts can see something worth gambling on.
Tell me this... St. Louis, are they running the same sytem they ran with Warner?? How 'bout Indy, is that the same system Dungy ran in Tampa?? Is it the same system they ran before Peyton?? Denver, is that the same O they used with Elway?? N.O. what are they going to do?? are they going to look like Dallas, or the Aaron Brooks type of offense, or something more customized to Drew's talents??
I thought good coaches tailored their offenses/defenses to their players talents.....
We don't run two backs, never have....... Denver doesn't put two tailbacks in the backfield, and motions one out to the slot. No team does. But you have no problem with a coach customizing their offense to accomodate a Running back...... & this goes beyound zone blocking, and backside cutbacks.... we're talking about no tightend, 4 WRs, 5 Wrs, no Full back....... etc, etc.... How many times has Denver ran 5 WRs?? Houston??
Janus3 said:
?? the numbers are nearly identicle.......
The only number that is out of proportion, is Matts attempts.. he threw the ball 106 times more than Vince. If you multiply that by Vince's YPA(9.3 x 106) you get 985 yards. Add that to Vince's 3036, and you get 4021 passing yards.
Matt threw 2 more touchdowns than Vince in those extra 106 attempts..... woopee, and that's with an amazing offensive weapon like Dale Jarrette..... and Reggie Bush too.
He threw 2 less INTs......... weeeeeeeeeee.
running the spread doesn't change the defense. It's just as difficult to read, whether you have your hands under the center, or if you're 5 yards back. It just gives the QB more time to process the info. If Kubiak is the guru we're making him out to be, then there isn't a better team for Vince Young to go to and develop.
I understand that Reggie will(not might, but will) help our team more than Vince will in 2006, but come 2008, 2009...... I don't think Reggie will be able to contribute anything that will compare to what Vince might.
It would be nice, if we had more playmakers on the O, that can cause mismatches, and take it to the house. If anything, the signing of Jeb Putzier, and Eric Moulds satisfies that need(because both Moulds and AJ demand the double team, and Jeb can be set up as a WR). Especially considering we already have AJ, Derrick Armstrong, and Kevin Mathis. DD is a threat to score every time he touches the ball inside the 50. With the WRs, FB, TE, and mobile David Carr, we should have no problem getting to the 50. And with the way our O will spread out the D, Domanick's going to be eating candy all day long behind Kubiak's zone blocking, and Flanagan the prowbowl center we just aquired.
TheOgre
All Pro
Haams said:
That makes sense. I knew there had to be a reason that everyone kept saying that. He must have been at the top prior to the bowls.
I don't think the comparison should be Carr vs. Young. The question should be do you like Carr, Bush, and DD is better or Young, DD, and whatever we can get for Carr (not to mention the cap hit we would take and the lost players as a result of that)?
beerlover
Hall of Fame
TheOgre said:
is this not the ideal situation for Vince Young to come into? Carr has paved the way (given up his body) for a Young, NFL inexperienced QB, to learn the system/league for a year or two, then when he is ready and his confidence/body remains intact he could fullfill his potential. Vince Young sat & groomed one year @ Texas, then by the end of year two won the Rose Bowl over Michigan, year three won the NCAA Championship in the Rose Bowl against USC, considered by most as one of the greatest programs in NCAA history.
The Texans only committed to Carr for three years, sometime during that window Vince will be ready & at his own pace without the pressures of being fed to the NLF wolves. Carr improves and does great, that would be awesome then the Texans could make a trade, to aquire compenstaion via trade.
Which ever way this thing plays out, Reggie Bush or Vince Young, Texan fans will continue to fill seats & buy merchandise. the decision should be Kubiacs, he is the best qualified & understands the QB position better than anyone, if at the same time he & Casserly can use another organization to add an extra high pick and still get Young, along with more contract flexibilty, that may add up for the Texans makin VY a Houston Texan.
once again to recap some valid reasons to draft Vince Young-
- time to groom under Carr
- Carr's trade value will increase
- VY will be more flexible cap wise in contract negoiations
- extra pick/s
- VY will fill Relient & sell jerseys too!
- send a message to all Houston area youth football
CoastalTexan
Waterboy
You have to make up multiple excuses to pick Young. The only excuse for Bush is BPA.
El Amigo Invisible
Rookie
Bush had so much talent around him (White and Matteo) and their team has a great coach. Texas had Vincent and most predicted it to be a one sided game. USC had too much talent and the Texas defense wouldn't be able to handle that much offense. I know Texas was good on defense but IMO they were not the best I had seen. Now, Reggie is going to be able to produce for a team that was 2-14?Yes,we have added alot of talent on both sides of the ball but Reggie has always been surrounded by talent.I think most people know I want to draft Vince but I would take Hawk in a trade down situation if need be but that seems more unlikely now than drafting Vince.CoastalTexan said:
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
El Amigo Invisible said:
People keep acting like VY had no surrounding cast. He had what was considered either the best or 2nd best OL in the country with USC having the other. He did put in one of the greatest single game performances ever as well. Most did not predict the game to be one sided since the odds were essentially even with a home field advantage given to USC.
CoastalTexan said:
How 'bout incredible poise under pressure?? How 'bout amazing leadership ability?? How 'bout the highest effeciency rating of any QB in the draft?? How 'bout having the highest QB rating of any QB in the draft?? How 'bout having the stronger arm of the two QBs expected to go in the top 5?? How 'bout accomplishing nearly identicle passing numbers as the #1 rated QB in the draft with less talent at the WR & RB positions?? How 'bout being a QB that can break a 75 yard touchdown run(I know it's at the college level, but all the accomplishments of the top running back in the draft, who only scored 16 rushing touchdowns(compared to Vince's 12 rushing touchdowns), were also at the college level, against college defenses).
How about having Better passing & rushing numbers than Michael Vick, and Donavan McNabb coming out of college. Whom many consider two of the best most dynamic quarterbacks in the NFL today.
OH, I'm sorry you said we have to make them up....... everything I just wrote, is true.
beerlover said:who was the BPA in the Rose Bowl? not Bush. VY was
who was the second best??
Matt Lienart.
Third Best??
Lendale white.
4th best??
David Thomas.
5th best??
Dale Jarrett
6th Best??
Michael Huff
Everyone of these players along with Vince's draft stock went up... even though Jarrett isn't in the draft.
Bush's draft stock went sideways...... of course, that could be because he was already the #1 rated player...
texan279 said:
Lienart has a higher completion percentage(half a percent). Efficiency means Young would pick up more yards, and was more likely to throw a touchdown than Matt was with every throw.
I wonder how many of Matt's Olinemen are projected to go first day, compared to how many of Vince's OL will go first day.....
Haams
Rookie
CoastalTexan said:
is that all you got? in coastal texans highly regarded opinion Reggie Bush is the best player available? Where does that even come from? His best game was worse than VY's. His best season was not as impressive as VY's. In the championship game he got made look human while VY looked like a superhero. Not saying RB is not a great player, I just don't see where bpa comes from. In my opinion he's not bpa (or even best running back) from his own team.
kastofsna
Hall of Fame
well if you think lendale white is a better runningback, you got a few marbles loose. and bush had a better season than young. leading the country in total yards on the #1 team despite splitting carries, and having a rushing YPC of over 8 is pretty inhuman. young's numbers are a product of the offense.
Chicagotexan1
Veteran
Haams said:
being the BPA is like having the WILD DRAW 4 in UNO. It doesn't matter what reasons you have for being in love with a player that is not the BPA, even if he is from Houston. DRAW 2, REVERSE, SKIP... None of that trumps the WILD DRAW FOUR. That's Reggie Bush, that's it. Many many TD's did VY throw for in the Rose. NONE. Give me a break if you think that he'll be able to do that in the NFL. Those stats are tougher to achieve in the NFL for QB's regardless of thier speed or ability.
CoastalTexan
Waterboy
ALL the mock drafts have Bush goin first, the BPA usually goes first. People that get paid (professionals) to examine prospects say Bush is the BPA. You don't get paid to look at prospects. They do, comparing #'s between two different positions is real scientific as well. No one in the country is looking at Young going #1, just us in Texas cause he's from here. This all has been repeated over and over and people don't get it. If we dont draft Vince don't come on here and take all your anger or sadness out please.
TexanFan881
All Pro
Haams said:
Reggie Bush was considered the best player in the draft up until the Rose Bowl, and if VY had better games than Reggie I think he would have been in consideration before his big game in the championship. VY was not even on the radar up until his great game. He was the BPA but some let that one game get to their head and decided that VY was the BPA. Now some of those VY people have turned back, but some have been in a coma for a few months now. If Reggie Bush would have had a better game and VY was average in the Rose Bowl then we wouldn't even be talking about VY now.
Haams
Rookie
TexanFan881 said:
Up untill the Rose Bowl Vince wasn't a player in the draft.
ummmm... did you watch last year's Rose Bowl? How about either of the OSU games?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't VY leading the heisman race untill he had subpar performances in his last couple of games while Reggie had some of his best? Then, people jumped all over the Reggie bandwagon and started talking about Texas didn't have a snowball's chance of beating USC. Now, those same people are talking about how VY doesn't have a snowball's chance of being better than RB at the next level.
I'm not trying to diss RB, I think he's good. I just want to see what's best for the team, and I'm a little pissed that Vince led my team to a perfect season and championship while putting up numbers that ncaa football has never seen and his own hometown still talks about him like he's a 7th grade chump. If you want to call RB BPA, just support it with something (other than period, which is what I usually hear from y'all.)
FirstTexansFan
The Unknown Fan
First, alot of us aren't Houstonians
Second, a 7th grader would have scored higher on "THE" test tsip
kastofsna said:
Ok, what exactly is it about the spread that makes it easier to read a defense?? What can it do, that going with 5 wideouts, motioning a reciever, splitting a TE out, or having the Running back run out to the slot??
Haams said:
Hamms....... just stop it. You're being silly. Silly. arguments like that only work against Vince Young....... UT had the best team in the league...... minus a QB... they should've been ranked #1 all season long, they probably would've been if it wasn't for that funky throwing motion their QB insists on using. USC only got the #1 ranking out of curtesy(sp). They've been undefeated for the last 2(three??) years because Reggie was there. Had nothing to do with all the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd round talent in the NFL today that came out of USC...... Heck, look at how their QB(prior to Lienart) is doing. If it weren't for T.J & Chad, he'd be benched by now. has nothing to do with the other 1st day talent we'll see in 2006......... those guys are only being drafted because they played with Reggie Bush. UT had a monopoly on talent, and they paid all the officials from all their games, especially the rose bowl. And they didn't even win that game, because Reggie wasn't on the field when Vince drove the bus that resulted in 2 scores in less than 6 minutes. You take those two drives away, and USC is a back to back to back National Champion...... even though they have no talent worth talking about on their team........
....except Reggie.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
Here is something i dont get. The common arguement for Reggie is that "nobody outside of Houston thinks Vince deserves to go #1". The convieneint thing is, HOUSTON has the 1st pick. Why do we care what the nation and ESPN think? They dont have the best interests of the team at heart. They dont know our needs and weaknesses like we do. I could give a rat's *** what the nation thinks of Reggie or how he would fit here. Houston has spoken about what Houston should do.....if the Jets were picking number 1 would we be caring about who they would pick? No. Let the other cities deal with their teams, and let Houston handle its own.
swtbound07 said:
That, IMHO is their best Argument........ much better than the Vince isn't a real Quarterback(as if Reggie is a real running back). Or the...... "no one is going to tailor an offense to a Quarterback, but they will tailor it around a Runningback", or his game won't translate to the NFL.
But why would you take a player with the #1 overall, if you can get him at 7, or 11??
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
No the best argument for drafting either of these players is the phenominal performances they have put in on the field. Bush shows a combination of vision, cutting ability, speed, ability to operate in multiple roles and overall athleticism which individually are matched by other players but are exceedingly rare in their combination. Similarly VY shows a combination of size, elusiveness, leadership and athleticism which are individually matched by other players but are exceedingly rare in their combination. Both have proven they deserve consideration for the #1 pick IMO. All this cruddy running down one or the other to make one look better is sad IMO.
Because of need, playing style, current players on rosters and salary cap concerns either of these players may drop to 7 or 10 if not taken by the Texans. That argument doesn't hunt as an indicator for chosing one over the other.
infantrycak said:
Well yeah, other than that one... it's their best argument.
I hate giving you positive rep points........ but you really deserve on for this objective post.......
Kudos.
kastofsna
Hall of Fame
his game DOESN'T translate to the NFL. much like any QB from texas tech or hawaii. or any product of a pass-happy zone-read spread offense. he doesn't have a great arm, he doesn't have good mechanics (terrible footwork), he struggled in a pro-style offense when he was in it, ran too much....what about his game translates to the NFL? he's a huge project and shouldn't be a first rounder.thunderkyss said: