Unbiased comparison of VY and Reggie Bush?

Discussion in 'College Football & the NFL Draft' started by gtexan02, Jan 11, 2006.

  1. gtexan02

    gtexan02 Working?

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    Ok here are the rules for this thread:

    Post a Pro/Con (try to be honest and unbiased here) about either VY or Bush. If you post a pro about VY, you must also post a con. If you post a con about Bush, you must also post a Pro for him, etc. Limit your responses to 1 Pro/Con per post!

    I'll start by summing up most of what I've heard so far on the boards:

    Reggie Bush
    Pros:
    Plays 3 positoins very well (WR, RB, PR)
    Is extremely fast (around a 4.3 40 time)
    Has ridiculous juking moves
    Sees the field very well, finding holes and exploding into them
    Has the size to run over/stiff arm would be tacklers
    Is being compared to Gale Sayers
    Mentored by LT

    Cons:
    Generally averages around 15 carries per game
    Runs East-West more often than between the tackles
    We already have Domanick Davis
    Bush's success is partly due to the great USC O-Line, and if he played behind our OL, who knows what would happen

    Stats:
    200 Rush Attempts for 1740 yards (8.7 ypc) and 16 rushing TDs (0 fumbles)
    37 Receptions for 478 yards (12.9 ypc) and 2 receiving TDs

    In Important Situations: Rosebowl Game Stats (Against University of Texas- #6 Total Defense)
    13 Carries for 82 yards (6.3 ypc) 1 Rushing TD, 6 receptions for 95 yards

    Vince Young
    Pros:
    Has the heart of a champion, and knows how to win games
    Can create plays with his legs
    Became an accurate and efficient passer his junior year
    Sees the whole field well
    Makes players around him better
    Mentored by Steve McNair

    Cons:
    Wacky half-flip throwing motion
    Tends to try to win games single handedly in crunch time
    We already have David Carr
    Played well because of UTs great OL. Behind ours, who knows what would happen

    Stats:
    212/325 passes (65.2% completion) for 3036 yards (9.34 ypa) for 26 tds and 10 ints

    155 rushing attempts for 1050 yards (6.8 ypc) for 12 TDs and 0 fumbles

    In Important Games (Rose Bowl stats versus #40 total ranked USC defense)
    30/40 for 267 yards and 0 TDs. Rushed 19 times for 200 yards and 3 TDs
     
  2. Grid

    Grid Hall of Fame

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    Bush
    Pro: Fills our need for a back to share carries with DD, who compliments DDs running style.

    Cons: Ties up alot of Cap space in our backfield.



    Vince Young

    Pros: A clean slate to start over with.

    Cons: Running QBs dont win championships.
     
  3. blockhead83

    blockhead83 All Pro

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    I disagree with you Grid about Young being a "running QB". When I think of a running QB, I think of Antwan Randle El in college or Michael Vick's college and early NFL career. In my time watching Young in the championship game he always looked to pass first before running unless it was a designed run. I think he's very similar to Steve McNair in that he doesn't "run" unless there's nobody open and he has to scramble to evade pressure. McNair was 6 inches from a championship, and he made that Titans team, he didn't break it. I think Young's playstyle is conducive to winning championships, IMO.
     
  4. Wolf

    Wolf 100% Texan

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  5. Señor Stan

    Señor Stan El Guapo

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    Reggie:
    Pro : Teams have to game plan around him. No current Texans with the exception of AJ have that kind of talent.

    Con : Big $ would be tied up in RB

    Vince :

    Pro : 1st ever to pass for 3000 and rush for 1000. Could have easily padded those stats even further but came out in the 3rd quarter of most games.

    Con : Would spell the end a David Carr in Houston. I don't know how the front office looks that guy in the face after subjecting him 200+ sacks without getting him any help. I still think he has the skills to get it done. I don't think there are many QBs around that could take that kind of beating and still take as many snaps as he has.
     
  6. YoungTexanFan

    YoungTexanFan Hall of Fame

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    Bush
    Pro: Comes from a sucessful program.

    Con: Inflated numbers against some of the worst Div I defenses.


    Young
    Pro: Amazaing physical tools are ability to read zone defenses. Satisfies the common "man crush"

    Con: Raw passer, not from pro style offense.
     
  7. Fiddy

    Fiddy Hall of Fame

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    And no number 1 pick for an expansion team has ever won one either...so is that another con for Carr??? :rolleyes:
     
  8. hitmantx

    hitmantx Rookie

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    Just because a so called running QB hasn't won a SB doesn't mean one won't.
     


  9. YoungTexanFan

    YoungTexanFan Hall of Fame

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    true, but sucess tends to follow history.
     
  10. YoungTexanFan

    YoungTexanFan Hall of Fame

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    So then why even bother picking a QB #1 again?

    Im neiter for nor against VY yet by the way.
     
  11. Grid

    Grid Hall of Fame

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    ok.. well then how about

    "Running QBs do not make the playoffs as often"

    look around the league and tell me that isnt true.



    As for "the #1 pick for an expansion team".. that is kind of an odd stat. Thats like saying no RB has ever run for 100 yards in a single quarter of overtime. It may be true.. but its a very small sample size :).
     
  12. Fiddy

    Fiddy Hall of Fame

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    I'm saying the teams first ever pick. A teams first ever pick has never won a Super Bowl. If y'all are going to say scrambling QBs have never won one, which VY isnt a scramble first QB, then I can bring up that no first number 1 for an expansion team has never won one.
     
  13. Fiddy

    Fiddy Hall of Fame

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    And relative to NFL history, there hasnt been many scrambling QBs. Just a few before the outburst over the last few years.

    And I hate to tell you, 3 scrambling QBs made the playoffs last year: McNabb, Vick and Culpepper all made it. McNabb made it to the Super Bowl, Vick to the Championship game and Culpepper lost to Vick after beating Favre. So saying they dont make the playoffs isnt very true either when McNabb has been there about 5 times, I think, maybe just 4. Vick twice and Culpepper has been there once or twice. And McNair has been to the playoff a few times and even a Superbowl.
     
  14. YoungTexanFan

    YoungTexanFan Hall of Fame

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    its a stretch, and you may be a little far out on the limb, but for arguments sake, how many expansion teams have won a superbolw with their original QB?

    VY isnt a scrambler, he is a player. He can scramble but he looks to pass first.

    Again, I am neither for or against him at this point.
     
  15. Grid

    Grid Hall of Fame

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    This whole "vince young isnt a run first QB" thing.. is kinda silly.

    Is there such thing as a run first QB? Vick maybe.

    A running QB is a QB who makes plays with his legs if he cant find an open receiver. That doesnt sound like a bad thing.. until you consider that QBs who stay in the pocket and make plays with their arms..are the ones who win superbowls. While one QB might roll out and look for the open guy.. a running QB may look for a hole and run it himself.

    It may not seem huge.. but it is.. in big games with two really talented teams.. its the passing plays that win games.. that is where the big plays come from.

    If you want to argue VY as a pocket QB vs. Carr as a pocket QB.. id say Carr is the winner. Quote VYs college stats all you want.. but he does NOT have Carrs passing abilities. You call VY a great accurate passer.. but how many of those passes were 5-7 yard dump offs to his favorite target, David Thomas? Compare VYs passing stats in college to Carr's passing stats in college and i think it will show that Carr has the upper hand there.

    Choosing between Carr the Pocket QB and Reggie Bush.. or just VY the pocket QB.. i gotta go with Carr and Bush.
     
  16. YoungTexanFan

    YoungTexanFan Hall of Fame

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    no arguments except for bush, but that is another post and has been beaten already. :deadhorse
     
  17. Fiddy

    Fiddy Hall of Fame

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    And Carr stays in the pocket??? After two seconds he starts "scrambling" outside the pocket and then sacks himself when he runs into the way of a defender because the o-lineman have no idea where he is. Carr is probably more of a "scrambler" than VY. Carr hasnt learned any pocket presence in 4 years. I've never seen him stay in the pocket till the last possible second then release the ball knowing he is going to get hit. He gets happy feet, runs outside the pocket and then makes the o-line look bad when he takes a sack and doesnt throw the ball away.

    None and that's what I'm saying. If you are going to go pull up the history of the NFL, then Carr should be out of here because history has told us an expansion's team orignal first pick will not win a Superbowl. There are other times to use NFL history, this is not one of those.
     
  18. Grid

    Grid Hall of Fame

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    Well he has been trying to make plays with a bad line :).. that isnt the type of QB he is though. He has an origin as a pocket QB.. and with coaching and an improved Oline he could return to that. Id say its easier to re-teach a former Pocket QB, than to teach a running QB without pocket QB characteristics, to be a pocket QB.

    We totally hijacked this thread :)
     
  19. Fiddy

    Fiddy Hall of Fame

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    That's where we differ. You think the line is bad, I think the QB makes the O-line look bad because of his poor pocket awareness.
     
  20. YoungTexanFan

    YoungTexanFan Hall of Fame

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    So how many 2nd for an expansion team QB's have there been fiddy?

    Predicting SB QB's is harder than the lotto. There is a system of numbers for the lotto, so much more to factor in for a SB QB.
     

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