To everyone getting upset by the "fire so and so" threads

Discussion in 'Texans Talk' started by gtexan02, Oct 12, 2005.

  1. gtexan02

    gtexan02 Working?

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    I really think the reason for all of these recently has been because our poor play is the result of one of two things:
    1. We are badly coached OR
    2. Our players have no talent

    I for one hope its not #2, because I really, really like Andre Johnson, Davis, Robinson, Carr, etc. They really are "The Texans" if you think about. So please, before you get upset at people, realize at 0-4 either the coaching or the players need to change. I still believe in the players. I don't believe in the coaches.



    PS: This sounds an awful lot like the "I support the troops"/Not the Leaders/Iraq debate lol
     
  2. Bubbajwp

    Bubbajwp All Flopper

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    The problem is bad coaching and not enough talent. The names you listed are all above average players. Except for maybe Carr we may never know how could he can be.
     
  3. gtexan02

    gtexan02 Working?

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    I refuse to make any decisions about talent until I see this team play with good coaching. Would you have thought Steve Foley was capable of recording any sacks at all last year? And then he went off and led the team in sacks. I remember going to the first game against the Chargers and thinking to myself, "wow, this SD team is terrible! They are starting a OLB that we simply let go of for roster space" And then look what happened. Schottenheimer isnt even what I would consider to be a top tier coach.
     
  4. Huge

    Huge Hall of Fame

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    You're not this bad unless you've got both (bad coaching and lack of talent).
     
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  5. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    Yeah I think that too at times, but I do not want to belive it.
     
  6. eriadoc

    eriadoc Texan-American

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    We can't have missed on talent this many times.

    I posted in a different thread on this very topic. Winning teams get good production out of less than premium talent. We have a few guys that I think people would consider premium talent. We've not gotten premium production from those players. We have several players that would be in the "solid unknown starter" category for many NFL teams. We've not gotten starter-quality production out of them. We have had players leave here for other teams and perform well, according to their talent level, on other teams. Why didn't we see that production level while they were here? McCree, Wright, Foley ... just to name a few. All showed flashes of promise and were subsequently shown the door (or allowed to show themselves to the door).

    There are several NFL teams that are starting 3rd year or younger, unknown players on their offensive line this year. They get good production from those players. The Colts have allowed Manning to be sacked once this year and they are starting two second-year unknowns. The Bengals lost both of their centers and had to completely reshuffle the interior of their line. They still manage to protect Palmer. The Chargers are playing three linemen in their 3rd year or less and protecting Brees well. The Browns are starting a youngster at center and Dilfer is looking like he might be their answer at QB, at least for a couple years.

    Our offensive linemen are all in their 4th year or longer, save Hodgdon. Why are we not getting similar production? Did we miserably fail at picking 53 players? Would none of our 53 players start for other teams? I think the ones that have left here have shown that they can, despite not being premium talent. Why does Dunta Robinson cover one side of the field, regardless of where the other team's best WR plays? This past week Robinson covered Brandon Jones. Drew Bennett is their only WR threat to date - why wasn't D-Rob on him? Not talented enough to cover Bennett? Why do we ever ask Peek to do anything but go kill the QB? I understand that the LBs in a 3-4 scheme have other responsibilities, but his talent lies in getting upfield. Play to it.

    We can't have missed on talent this much. If it happens a few times, you say the player was a bust. If it happens this often, you have to start looking elsewhere.
     
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  7. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    Good stuff. :brickwall
     
  8. Cincinnatikid

    Cincinnatikid Veteran

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    exactly, the problem is the coaches coaching to a scheme that they made and it is set in stone. there is no improvization, no tinkering, no willingness to change to what they have. Dunta should be covering the number 1 man, Peek should be blitzing and playing at the line more, Wong and Greenwood are fast so they should be able to blitz more and play close to the line instead of making plays five yards down field. Its just bad utilization of talent that is there. I may overexaggerate what the potential of them may be but the coaches negate any of the potential. To be drafted a guy needs to have some talent at least, to stay in the NFL for multiple years means their talent needs to be even higher. This team really isnt as useless as many feel. The talent level really doesnt differ much from many other teams. Other teams and coaches just learn how to use their talent.
     
  9. thegr8fan

    thegr8fan All Pro

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    I am one of those people who is beyond tired of the 'knee jerk'- "fire everyone above the waterboy level" posts that inundate this board.

    We fired Palmer. And you know what, we still LOST. Not once but twice. So all you MB experts who think that walking into the office tomorrow and telling Capers and Casserly to 'pack your gear', please tell me how this is going to directly result in the Texans winning a game in THIS season.

    Firing anyone else, at this point and time, is not only INSANITY from a business perspective, but isn't going to actually RESOLVE anything.

    I look at it from the other perspective. Capers, Casserly, and thier henchmen are NOT going to 'escape' that easily. If they mismanage the rest of the season, so be it. They can stand in front of the reporters and sports analyst experts and bear the brunt of the burden. They don't get to 'go on a vacation' while the Texans recover.

    Firing anyone else is NOT going to 'get us on the winning track' tomorrow, or even next week. It is Insanity to think so. And it isn't going to give us a 'jump start' on rebuilding either. Only thing it will get a 'jump start' on is absolutely ensuring the #1 draft pick in next years draft.

    So all you, wipe the slate clean, knee jerk reaction, MB experts, who keep crying for someone ELSE to get FIRED, can either shut up and stomach it, no matter how repulsive that is. Or you can keep whining like a bunch of kindergarten girls demanding that they get their way NOW.

    But I for one am sick and tired of the 'I want it now' screaming children currently inhabiting this MB.

    Grow up. And start acting like a Grown Up and remember All is NOT FAIR. Or just keep whimpering and whining about it some more. But don't think that everyone on this board is whining along with you. Cause they aren't.

    There, you think VENTING is acceptable, so you shouldn't have any problem when I do so against some of the current MB's favorite subject.
     
  10. gtexan02

    gtexan02 Working?

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    Don't you at least agree that it inspired the team a little? I mean, Carr is raving about how much more serious Pendry is thatn Palmer was.

    And how do you know this? Can you see the future? Midseason coaching changes are sometimes exactly what a team needs to spark them.


    No need to get so upset. Whining about whining really never accomplishes much.


    PS: What are you talking about when you "knee-jerk" reaction over and over again? A knee jerk reaction would be if we got beat one game and called for change. We have been struggling with solidifying an offensive line now since our inception in this league! If thats "knee-jerk" to you, I sure hope you don't rely on relfexes in your career.
     
  11. thegr8fan

    thegr8fan All Pro

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    name me once when a head coach, offensive coordinator, and GM were fired mid season and it 'sparked them' into winning.

    Name once when an offensive coordinator AND head coach were fired and it 'sparked' a team into WINS.

    Just name one, that is all you need to do to prove to me that this could, by the widest stretch of the imagination, be an answer to a 'Winning method'.

    no, I don't. And I'll be nice and let you into a little secret, I ain't looking for 'inspiration', I get that at a church. I am looking for an answer to 'how to WIN an NFL football game'. We L-O-S-T both games since that happened. If losing 2 games since the firing of Palmer isn't a prime indication of the futility of 'knee jerk' firing moves, I don't what is. If we fire Capers and Casserly then it isn't going to get us a WIN either.

    Vince Lombardi said it best right here-""Some of us will do our jobs well and some will not, but we will be judged by only one thing-the result."

    now THERE is some inspiration I CAN agree with.
     
  12. Vinny

    Vinny shiny happy fan Staff Member

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    I think there are quite a few people who would like to see Capers or Casserly (or both) replaced...by next year. I don't think the majority are pushing to see the team make a move asap. The same thing happened to Dan Reeves a couple of years ago in the season....the fans are just going to talk about it.
     
  13. eriadoc

    eriadoc Texan-American

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    There are some that come in here with the "fire everyone today" banter, but honestly, I think you'll find more people have moderate views on the subject. I am a proud member of the Fire Capers Club (lol), but I am not saying do it tomorrow. I realize that firing him tomorrow won't solve anything. However, I'll say this - keeping him around won't solve much, either. It's more an issue of who's available.

    Capers is a good guy and I give him props for his attention to detail, visibility to the fans on the radio, and loyalty to his guys. But he's not winning football games, and like you said - that's all that matters.

    Actually, I rescind that statement - there is a point where winning football games is all that matters. If Capers was 0-4 right now and we'd been competitive in all 4 games, I doubt you'd see much of the knee-jerk reaction we've seen. This team, under his leadership and direction, has only resembled an NFL-caliber team for about 6 quarters this season. Throw in the final couple preseason games and it goes to maybe 6.5 quarters. It's been atrocious.

    So no, don't fire Capers tomorrow, but yes, he has to go at season's end, IMO.

    If the manner in which I've presented this, or any of my posts, is considered whining, then I can live with that.
     
  14. Vinny

    Vinny shiny happy fan Staff Member

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    There is nothing knee-jerk about our last 13 games where we are a solid 3-10 with a short bus offense that can't throw the ball whatsoever. Just look up the passing totals in those games....they are brutal. We are going backwards and doing it in an ugly manner.
     
  15. thegr8fan

    thegr8fan All Pro

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    this board does not have a moderate mindset. To prove that there are 2 different threads on the First Page right now.

    this one is "Let's focus on the Good things" and it has all of ONE reply. And THAT reply is
    thread link

    Here is one that talks mainly about keeping David Carr past this season. It has 111 replys. Once again now......do you keep Carr

    so you want to explain to me how this is considered MODERATE?
     
  16. Marcus

    Marcus Ruthless pragmatist

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    Don't you see that for what it is? If only Carr's pocket presence was as good as his butt-kissing skills, the team would be a lot better off.

    Good stuff thegr8fan. That needed to be said. :highfive:


    __________________________
     
  17. thegr8fan

    thegr8fan All Pro

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    thank you Marcus. :cool:

    I thought the title of this thead had my name written all over though, to be honest.

    I feel much better now that I have had my rant. I am beginning to understand the 'temper tantrum' rant a bit more now. :hmmm:
     
  18. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk All Pro

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    I'd be interested in hearing how you (and others) think sticking with Capers for the remainder of the season benefits the team, especially if you already know he should be fired at the end of the season? Seems to me that keeping him is MORE DISPIRITING than letting him go, for all concerned.

    Sure, moving a temp in is not going to fix the problems, probably not going to light a fire or even win any more games, but it would clearly establish that management will not tolerate egregious losing, which is what we've had here for a while, and it would set the stage for what could happen instantly when the season's done, and it could bring out some new ideas from other younger position coaches to see if anyone on the staff is worthy of further consideration, and it could possibly help us with the hard Carr decision that has to be made next year (pay him way too much, or let him try elsewhere), by freeing him from the dominance and control of Capers and Pendry, and making him operate on his own more (if he can). I'm assuming that the top notch QBs in this league are never too much under the thumbs of their coaches, but maybe that's a figment of my imagination.

    Anyway, I would like to hear a clear rational for NOT FIRING Capers (and possibly Casserly) now. Thanks.
     
  19. gtexan02

    gtexan02 Working?

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    Thats just the point of this whole topic---Don't you see? I love the Texans, and I really like most of the players. But they can't play for Capers because, for whatever reason, he doesnt seem to be able to motivate them. His schemes don't seem to be working. In the last four games of the season we have looked pretty bad. Why stay the course if it look like things will only get worse? This is the same argument that brought us here in the first place. "Lets sign a big name OL or draft a top tier OL!" was responded with "stay the course, they need time to gel." We are 0 and 4, right? If we stay the course, we could be 0-16 (not likely, but it could happen). If we change, what is the worst that could happen? Exactly, 0-16. Capers is getting us nowhere fast. This is supposed to be the breakout year of his 5 year plan, and we are off to our worst start with the worst looking team we have ever had--- and that is why I think a change is in order. Im not saying make a permanent coaching change right now, but I am saying step in and do something...anything, really. Make Hoke head coach, or Pendry even, or someone else who might have at least some chance of reinspiring this team.
     
  20. thegr8fan

    thegr8fan All Pro

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    then why do it?

    Taking action just for the sake of taking action is NOT a good business decision.

    Why do I NOT want it to happen, cause then I wouldn't know WHO to cuss at on Sunday.

    Capers and Casserly know their days are numbered, as well as the fans do. I would take this as the best motivation for them giving it their entire effort to change that attitude THIS season. Bob McNair I am sure is even more aware of it.

    If we fire Capers and Casserly then the players are standing there the next day, KNOWING that their entire season is 'down the drain'. That they are starting completely over from day one with not only an entire new offensive scheme, but a new philosophy, defense scheme, incorrect personel to run either and the odds of them winning a game just went from 'slim' to 'absolutely,absolutely, ZERO'.

    I don't know about anyone else, but if I was a player I would find it much more 'dispiriting' to know that Bob McNair had just 'mailed in' the entire season.

    IF, and that is a HUGE word, but IF there was even a slim chance that this action, firing Capers or Casserly, would be something positive, I don't doubt that Bob McNair would take it in a heartbeat. But he is a business man and understands that action simply for the sake of action with NO positive result is even MORE disheartening to any organization than to simply be patient and take your action when it WILL do something positive.
     

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