This is a dumb question

Discussion in 'Texans Talk' started by Marcus, Sep 20, 2006.

  1. Marcus

    Marcus Ruthless pragmatist

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    I hope y'all don't mind if I ask it anyway. So here goes.

    How can you tell if the secondary is playing bad if you can't get pressure on the QB?

    I ask this, because I read a lot of posts where it says something like "Yeah, I know (so & so) has all day to throw, but our safeties suck, and our CBs couldn't cover the toilet lids with their own asses."

    I guess I just don't understand the viewpoint that one is NOT dependant on the other, so I need some help here if y'all don't mind. What am I not seeing?
     
  2. Cjeremy635

    Cjeremy635 Overtraining

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    Mainly by a cover person(s) being out of position to make a play. When a reciever is wide open in the secondary, whether it be over the middle or wherever, there was a blown assignment most of the time. Someone was either supposed to drop back and cover that section of the field, or someone was supposed to have that reciever. There are times where there is just too much time for the QB and someone is bound to get open, but there are plenty of times that someone is running open down the field after the snap. Sometimes the corner may come up to play the run if he bites on a playaction, and that's a blown cover assignment.
     
  3. Hervoyel

    Hervoyel The Right Track

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    Based on the current state of the board that's not a dumb question. Not even close.
     
  4. real

    real Guest

    I think people are exagerrating how long McNabb and Manning had to throw...There were some plays that the QB had ample time, but that's gonna happen at times....But when the ball is thrown and there is no one around the guy...Odds are someone messed up...and it's easy to see when the corners get burned....
     
  5. humbleone

    humbleone Veteran

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    You are not missing a thing IMO...one is dependant on the other but a great pass rush will make an average defensive backfield "look" good. The good Lord did not make enough truly great "cover corners" to do it the other way around however IMO.

    I would only add that sadly, what we have so far is weakness within all three layers of our defense as has many times been discussed. So, in reality it is not one or the other but both. The place to start though is upfront which of course the Texans seem committed to albeit so far without happy results.

    So far this year, the most disappointing thing about the way we have played is the lack of hurries/hits we are getting on the opposing QB and RB blowups in the backfield. Our CB's are better than they "look" IMO because for some reason Smith has them playing "soft" coverage (even Drob). It looks like he doesn't have confidence that we are going to get to the QB so he is just trying to keep everything in front of the defense. We have played a lot of really soft "nickel" junk so far against the Eagles and Colts.

    Btw, I said our CB's are better than they "look"...CC Brown really has not played well so far this year.

    The good news is that we do have some talent to build around...I really like Weaver, TJ is looking like he wants to compete, Babin looks better and if we can get Mario to play like it is his last game we may finally have something going. I would like to see them try some 5-3-3 (CC on the bench in this set) pin theirs ears back and go.

    Sorry for the rant...I needed a moment to vent.

    Go Texans! :superman:
     
  6. done88

    done88 Veteran

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    Have you ever heard of a coverage sack. No such thing for the Texans. The secondary including Robinson has beeen disected. Quarter backs have no problem throwing to either side. They throw deep and short. The secondary is always a step behind and they are not dislogging the ball with monstor hits. They simply sit back and watch the other team score. Pressure on the QB or not is it too much to ask to make a play third down 1 out of 10 times. The only time they stopped the Colts on third down was when a wide open reciever just dropped the ball.
     
  7. real

    real Guest

    Where are you guys getting this 5-3-3 stuff from??? Why do you think us having 1 safety and 2 corners would benifit us ? Why do you think having 5 D-Lineman in the game would benifit us ? I don't know a team in the leauge that wouldn't love for us to come out in that formation...so they can score 651658236598236 points.....
     
  8. humbleone

    humbleone Veteran

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    Yep...coverage sacks, balls thrown away before a sack same deal...I'm just saying it looks like Smith is making his CB's play soft so far this year. If so, this crap is on him not Drob and Sanders. Regardless, no way CC gets a pass...so far this year he looks as bad as Coleman did back there last year.
     


  9. HJam72

    HJam72 Hall of Fame

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    Against Indy, a 3-3-5 might've helped some. :)


    There are no dumb questions, only dumb people....oh....sorry. :hides:
     
  10. real

    real Guest

    No...A coverage sack is when the QB is sacked because no one was open...
     
  11. Vinny

    Vinny shiny happy fan Staff Member

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    the 5-3-3 isn't played in the NFL because of the advanced passing games. You only see that kind of d vs option or veer or bone teams.
     
  12. Vinny

    Vinny shiny happy fan Staff Member

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    :perfect10:
     
  13. El Tejano

    El Tejano Hall of Fame

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    Or whenever you see the Safetybite hard on a play action pass and the QB just lobs the ball over their head for the score.
     
  14. noxiousdog

    noxiousdog All Pro

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    I thought McNabb had all day, but Peyton threw pretty quickly and/or moved around the pocket really well.
     
  15. real

    real Guest

    They were trying to stay in their lanes to stop him from scrambling....He held the ball longer than Manning but it wasn't all day...It was our first game...I could go on and on but you get the point...Our D-line isn't as bad as our secondary...basically
     
  16. noxiousdog

    noxiousdog All Pro

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    I should hope not. Our line is 4 guys who should be starting (two 1st rounders, a pricey FA, and a proven vet). Our secondary is one first rounder and guys that would struggle to make a team anywhere else (Earl being a possible exception, but he's no threat to make a pro-bowl).
     
  17. threetoedpete

    threetoedpete Hall of Fame

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    Only if we armed them with hand granades. With Faggins and Buck out, we're a little thin back there. We get healthy against Miami and the Skins in the defensive backfeild then we might be over reacting. Two top five Qbs bombed us. That's all. My dumb knee jerk thought on that is, one fire is going to die down only to reveil another hot spot. If Cullpepper and Brunell get healthy against us, there is nothing Richard Smith can do. It's not a litle flare up, the forest is on fire. We just gotta ride it out till they get it.
     
  18. run-david-run

    run-david-run Hall of Fame

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    You never know, NFL teams tend to outhink themselves. Atlanta used the UT "zone read" play from the shotgun and Vick ran for 135 yards, Atlanta for 306. Im not saying 5-3-3 or any other wacky formation will work, but dont discount it so easily.
     
  19. real

    real Guest

    ummmm....no...Im gonna discount that one....I don't think there is anyway possible you could come out with a 5-3-3 as your base defense and truly expect to compete in the NFL.....Just because the zone read worked doesn't mean every other wacky idea will...
     
  20. jerek

    jerek Pro Hobbyist

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    I had typed a long post and hit Submit when I got a message that the board was being updated. Who updates software during the middle of the day? Mods, if that was your call, I am disappointed in you. :)

    Any way, to answer the question (and it is a good question), you have to remember that DBs must constantly react to the play. In running a route, the WR for the most part knows where he is going ahead of time, and the DB must constantly react to his movement and the ball.

    This puts a DB at an inherent disadvantage against the WR. There are tricks a DB can utilize to lessen that advantage (Aaron Glenn was a master at this) but the bottom line is that, all else being equal (athleticism, height, etc.), the DB begins the play at a slight disadvantage to the WR he is covering, and the disadvantage only widens as the play goes on. The inherent disadvantage isn't an "excuse" for poor coverage or technique (and we have had our share of that as well) but your defensive gameplan needs to account for it.

    I don't think our secondary is that bad. They ain't good, but they're not that bad either. We have had our share of blown coverages, accidents (DBs running into each other, slipping, biting on play action, or just getting out-techniqued) but they're not as bad as some might suggest they have looked.

    We simply need more pressure up front to force the QB to make bad throws. Our DBs need to improve their technique as well (and we do have a good DBs coach in Jon Hoke) but pass coverage is very much tied to QB pressure, and we're not doing our secondary any favors right now. It's simply not fair to expect DBs to cover as long as we repeatedly call on ours to do so.

    This in part goes back to playcalling. The reason why the Steelers and Patriots own Peyton Manning year after year is not because they start 11 Pro-Bowlers, but because their Xs and Os consistently put their defenders in a position to make plays. Manning isn't that good when he's hurried (not many QBs are), he isn't mobile, and the Steelers and Pats consistently take advantage of that with aggressive blitzing and tight man coverage, forcing him to unload before he wants to.

    Right now, Richard Smith ain't giving us good Xs and Os (and yes, I recognize that the Steelers D is more fundamentally talented than ours, but the talent differential isn't nearly to the extent that our scores would suggest.) And if he doesn't start doing that, then our secondary is going to continue to look bad.
     

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