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The Myth of the Long Ball & Matt Schaub

powda

The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
Talking about balls thrown in the air here. Total and complete BS on they figured out we were running play action. Kubiak/Shanahan/Walsh have been doing it for several decades now.
I dont really see much that undermines my post. And your stance on Kubiak, Shanahan, Walsh having been there done that is asinine. Apparently no one in the NFL is capable of conjuring new plays/schemes because its all been said and done.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
You can attempt to frost this cake any way you want. I am sorry but over the course of a season and multiple different styled QB's your rationales fall away. At the end of the day the results weren't better on big plays. Someone should be really standing out particularly with this class of comparisons to lowly Schaub. You would think the holders of 9 SB rings would easily shine against Schaub with stats on this issue.



I used the same source for all of them. I doubt ESPN was biased for Schaub.

Don't get caught up in the minutiae. The fact is these big names were not flinging the ball around 30+ yds with a great deal more success than Schaub. Y'all can rationalize it away all you want but that is a fact.
Lol..i-cak i'm on your side in this debate my man, i just don't see the correlation you're trying to make with pass attempts and completions with completing the long ball. Just b/c the qb is better or you throw the ball more doesn't necessarily mean that you will be or should be completing passes of 40+ yards or more than everyone else....we agree there. My point however is that there are too many factors that contribute to that stat for it to be as cut and dry as you're presenting it.


Matt Stafford threw the ball 727 times last year...by far the most in the league. Yet he only attempted to throw the ball 40+ yds 25 times for a grand total of 7 completions...28%...pretty much right in line with the other qb's you listed in your initial post (stats from ESPN). You don't think the fact that opposing defenses know their offense is based primarily on them throwing it up to Calvin Johnson had any effect on that completion % and how they played them? or how about the fact that their defense couldn't stop anyone so they found themselves down big in a lot of 4th qtrs or the fact that their run game was trash? That stuff matters more than people like to admit.

With Kubiak's stubborn conservative ass playcalling, we overly commit to the run and i'm sure the pass plays he does call for Schaub throughout the course of games are high % designed to keep us in 3rd and short situations where we can run or pass. Hell, how many times have we all complained about the playcalling in 3rd and long situations and Kubiak calls a freakin draw? His playcalling is 1 of the biggest detriments to Schaub and our offense at times; I'm convinced now more than ever.
 

Dutchrudder

Hall of Fame
Ok, lemme help you guys out. On ESPN and many other site, you can look at the "Splits" section of any player to get a boatload of situational information. For Schaub go here: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/5615/matt-schaub

If you look at the bottom of Schaub's page, you can see passes by distance, which is what Cak is using to create those stats. You can do this for any QB, and find similar stats for other positions. The one important to the discussion is passes of 31+ yards. You can see the ranges in this pic:



Note that these are passes in the air, which is why it shows incompletions. If Schaub throws a pass to Foster at the LOS and he runs it 80 yards for a TD, it won't be in the 31-40 stat shown, but it would show up in the stats Silvrhand was looking at as a 40+ yard play. That's the big difference. Check out Schaub's 21-30 yard passes to see his big deficiency.

The second set of stats in that list shows Schaub's stats based on field position. If you look at the 19-GOAL line, you can see his Red Zone stats. However, don't combine the 19-GOAL and 10-GOAL or you will be double-counting the stats. Schaub had 22 TDs this year, 14 of which came from the Red Zone.
 

eriadoc

Texan-American
One of you stat gurus find me the number of completions Schaub has thrown where he underthrew the receiver and it cost yards and/or a TD. I've watched it.
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
One of you stat gurus find me the number of completions Schaub has thrown where he underthrew the receiver and it cost yards and/or a TD. I've watched it.
Yes, Matt Schaub sometimes makes imperfect passes. I'm not sure your point. Schaub is a good QB (somewhere between the 7th-15th best in the NFL), depending on the season, system, and personal preferences. Other than my 12 year old son, I don't think anyone is arguing he is in the class of Brady and Rodgers. Schaub played poorly the last two months last year. Nobody knows why but we hope it doesn't continue. What else needs to be said?
 

bOODRO87

Time Consumer
Matt needed the high altitude in Denver to hit WR's in stride on the long ball. That game is literally the only one that I can remember him throwing the long ball well in 2012.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
One of you stat gurus find me the number of completions Schaub has thrown where he underthrew the receiver and it cost yards and/or a TD. I've watched it.
Why do u keep bringing this up like he's the only qb who does this with regularity? Seriously, why act like this isn't the case for every single qb in the league? Again, go back and watch the superbowl. Flacco severely underthrew a wide open Jacoby Jones...Jones made the play to come back to the ball and wound up turning that into a TD...If the db was even remotely where he needed to be that's probably an incomplete pass /pick.

Every qb in the league underthrows/overthrows or misplaces throws to WR's in every game they play at least 4-6 times a game. The difference many of the times is the guy they're throwing to, whether he can make a better play on the ball than the db. That's why guys like Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald are coveted..they can turn bad decisions/throws into good ones.
 

Texanmike02

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
This doesn't pass my litmus test, so I went digging..

For 20+ yard completions, I show that he was 16th in the league with 46 completions of 20+ yards. He was also what 14th with 8 long balls of 40+ yards or more.

Not only do the stats contradict yours, but in general the eyeball test for Matt is he doesn't have good ball placement has to be on a schedule, or else he's very inefficient. I still think Matt is a system QB, and that's all he'll ever be, but that's all Kubiak wants though IMHO.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_20PLUS_YARDS_EACH&tabSeq=0&season=2012&Submit=Go&experience=&archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&qualified=false
How many QBs aren't system QBs? Manning, Brady, Rogers... to a lesser degree Brees (had one good year pre Sean Payton). Luck. Hell RG3 (I'm a fan of his btw) has to be in the right system. Outside of those guys, how many guys can you put in a different system and expect the same kind of performance? (This is just off of the top of my head, I may have missed a few).



Mike
 

Texanmike02

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Since we're doing eye tests... Most of the top QBs in the league have one (or more) receivers that make great catches. Can somebody please come up with a list of top QBs that don't have receivers that bail them out? I really can't think of any. Brees throws to Colston, Flacco has Boldin and Smith. Hell Jacoby Jones made a phenominal move to score a TD on an underthrown ball. Which QBs don't have receivers that make phenominal plays and make them look great?

Mike
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Since we're doing eye tests... Most of the top QBs in the league have one (or more) receivers that make great catches. Can somebody please come up with a list of top QBs that don't have receivers that bail them out? I really can't think of any. Brees throws to Colston, Flacco had Boldin and Smith. Hell Jacoby Jones made a phenominal move to score a TD on an underthrown ball. Which QBs don't have receivers that make phenominal plays and make them look great?

Mike
fixed
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
No, Schaub doesn't have a big arm, but he's good enough to make the necessary throw in the WCO; that's all that matters.
 

infantrycak

Hall of Fame
whered you get these numbers from?
Dutchrudder is correct - ESPN.

This doesn't pass my litmus test, so I went digging..

For 20+ yard completions, I show that he was 16th in the league with 46 completions of 20+ yards. He was also what 14th with 8 long balls of 40+ yards or more.

Not only do the stats contradict yours, but in general the eyeball test for Matt is he doesn't have good ball placement has to be on a schedule, or else he's very inefficient. I still think Matt is a system QB, and that's all he'll ever be, but that's all Kubiak wants though IMHO.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_20PLUS_YARDS_EACH&tabSeq=0&season=2012&Submit=Go&experience=&archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&qualified=false
Dutchrudder is also correct on this. Your stats do not contradict mine. They are just for something completely different. I spelled this out explicitly in my original post - this is on how far the ball travels IN THE AIR not the length of the end result of the play. Maybe your eyeball test should be able to tell the difference between those two basic concepts. The 41 yd WR screen to AJ to win in overtime - not in this. The 53 yd in the air pass - in this.

Color me dumb but I cannot understand these 'stats'. Further explanation please?
What is there not to understand? I think you are asking for conclusions and I was leaving those to each person.

ckhouston - try reading. This is in the air. It has nothing to do with dumping it to Foster and having him go 80 yards.

This thread was not intended as a general referendum on Schaub. I was surprised when I saw Big Ben's numbers and so started looking at some other QB's.
 

Double Barrel

Texans Talk Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I'm pretty ambivalent about Schaub. I see his good, his bad, and I'm pragmatic in realizing that he's the best option at QB the Texans have right now.

So, fwiw as it relates to this thread, some anecdotal stuff:

Schaub’s deep ball impresses Patriots corner Aqib Talib

The Patriots have said all week they expect a very different Texans team on Sunday than the one they faced in December.

Patriots cornerback Aqib Talib said he’s seen changes on film and expects more in the game.

Asked what he thinks Texans quarterback Matt Schaub’s biggest strength was, Talib said it was Schaub’s deep ball.

“He can get that ball out there,” Talib said. “He knows the speed of his receivers; he’s real good on putting that deep ball on the money.”

Source
 

silvrhand

All Pro
I'm pretty ambivalent about Schaub. I see his good, his bad, and I'm pragmatic in realizing that he's the best option at QB the Texans have right now.

So, fwiw as it relates to this thread, some anecdotal stuff:
WTF is with that quote, that's one of the things that always drives me crazy is Matt's long balls the receivers are ALWAYS waiting.. this is like Talib wanting Matt to go deep so he can chase it down and pick it off lol.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
matt's accuracy has always been a problem even before his injury. Just look at the film, even short passes he has trouble making accurate throws. That's why you always see receivers having to make high difficulty catches on simple crossing patterns.

my god even his check down passes are horrible. How many times have you seen owen daniels having to make crazy catches on the account of schaub? Look at that last playoff game, horrible throw to andre in the end zone, horrible passes to casey, owen daniels where an accurate throw to a pass no longer than 20 yards would have netted a first down.

If we had a lesser tight end instead of a pro bowl caliber one, this weakness would be glaring much brighter. Even some of the throws to arian foster were ridiculously bad, that one throw vs jets or bears i think where foster had to lunge all out to grab a touch down pass just shows matt's accuracy problem.

With all that being said, matt's biggest problem is not his arm strength but his decision making. That is matt's biggest weakness IMO. He has shaky decision making, not very accurate and the problem is augmented with the fact that he's not athletic, fast, nor a playmaker.

But yes, lets sign him to a contract extension no way we can find anybody better than that. Its impossible....
Best post you've made so far. Also the best anti-Matt post I've seen in a while. These are issues that we've been debating about Matt Schaub for a long time.

I'm not saying you're right, or that you're wrong, but these points are at least arguable.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
This simply isn't true. Schaub has a very long track record... college, Atlanta, and 7 years in Houston and his accuracy has never been an issue. He has always been among the leaders in completion percentage and the important stat: Yards per attempt.
I think what Jules is talking about is ball placement. He puts the ball in some of the darndest places. Arian's TD pass that he mentions, for instance, that might have been the best place to put that ball, away from the defender, in bounds, but Arian was going to have to make a play. I believe the pass to Andre in the endzone (the one he dropped) was similar, Aj should have come off his feet to catch that one.

The underthrown ball to Casey that was picked off...... that's been an issue since day one, one that I've brought up frequently. However, there is a quote where he says he does it on purpose to increase the odds of it being caught. 'cak's numbers & his overall completion percentage points to him being more right on that case (even though I hate it).

If you look at the two big plays Jacoby had during the play offs... both underthrown, but he had more time to locate the ball (because they were thrown high) & adjust. If they were thrown ahead of him, he'd have to run underneath it. We've seen receivers do it all the time, but we've also seen more of those passes (I think) graze fingertips, than the underthrown ones go incomplete. So I'm on the fence on the "underthrows it on purpose" argument.

& speaking of Jacoby, I think the reason he's not here, & KDub made another year, was that Matt simply didn't trust him. You go back to that Raiders game a couple years back where he was targeted 11 times & didn't catch 1 ball. Matt put those balls where Jacoby would have to do some acrobatics to have a chance & I think that was because he didn't trust Jacoby to fight off defenders.

But I've seen several throws to Walter & Daniels that were on the numbers when they had defenders on their backs.

Bottom line, his completion percentages always look good. But watching the game I can't help but question his placement.
 

Rey

Guest
The ravens game where he threw the pick 6 in overtime a couple years ago...

Not that throw, but the 2 pt conversion that got us to OT was intended for andre. Jacoby caught it though.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Shoot, we've seen Schaub overthrow receivers deep before, even back then with Andre Davis, who was another speedster.
 

leebigeztx

Keep it Movin!
So it has been customary of late to slag Schaub's arm whenever any WR is brought up. Latest example Mike Wallace - well he is too fast for Schaub. So decided to look at what we were missing out on. Since Wallace was what brought this up I looked up Big Ben first but below are some other prominent QB's (when I say thrown I mean in the air, not the result of the play):

Big Ben - 17 attempts, 4 completions, 23.5%. (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Peyton - 20 attempts, 7 completions, 35% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brady - 19 attempts, 6 completions, 31.5% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Flacco - 38 attempts, 8 completions, 21% (2 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brees - 32 attempts, 12 completions, 37.5% (4 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Rodgers - 13 attempts, 5 completions, 38% (1 completion over 40 yards thrown)

Schaub - 17 attempts, 6 completions, 35% (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)

Here's the kicker for you. All but one of those QB's had 3 TD's which were thrown over 30 yds - that was Brees with 4.

By the way that means these QB's attempted throws over 30 yds 3.9% of the time.

But what the hell, stats are meaningless.
An explosive play is considered 20 yds or more. Now you can twist the numbers how you feel,but the tape dont lie. How many times have you seen schaub just drop back on a 7 step drop and throw strikes? What about andre with a step and a half and he has to wait for the ball? They dont show up in the stat sheets, but we've seen it way too many times. You think mike wallace and torrey smith are better wrs than andre? Well both of those guys score more tds than andre because their qb can put it out there without playaction or a windup.
 

BigBull17

Hall of Fame
Schaub looked great until December. He looked bad after that. I don't know why. Perhaps it was his foot... Some of his underthrows late in the year were inexplicable, and it did appear he could not drive the ball like he usually can (not that he has a gun). Hopefully, it was an injury that can/will heal or some other correctable issue. I'm not worried until I see those problems continue this coming year.
Watch the Denver game and then one from the end of the season and its hard to believe they are the same guy. Was like The Hulk turning back into Chad Pennington.
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
Watch the Denver game and then one from the end of the season and its hard to believe they are the same guy. Was like The Hulk turning back into Chad Pennington.
Yeah, some of those deep posts he tried to throw late in the year were pathetic... You seldom, if ever, see a QB step into a throw with no pressure around him and severely underthrow a post route without a safety on top of it. It was as if he was throwing a wet blanket. I hope, whatever it was, can be corrected/heal.
 

eriadoc

Texan-American
Yeah, some of those deep posts he tried to throw late in the year were pathetic... You seldom, if ever, see a QB step into a throw with no pressure around him and severely underthrow a post route without a safety on top of it. It was as if he was throwing a wet blanket. I hope, whatever it was, can be corrected/heal.
There's nothing to correct or heal, according to stats.
 

powda

The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
There's nothing to correct or heal, according to stats.
Yup. No point even watching the games because the stat line tells us he's Dan Marino.

Sorry but this whole thread is silly to me. Maybe I just let my "Matt Schaub Sunshine Club" dues lapse.
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
There's nothing to correct or heal, according to stats.
I agree with ICak. I don't think Schaub struggles with the deep pass. I think he's quite good... However, I recognize he was awful throwing downfield in December and January. I don't think Icak would disagree with that assertion.
 

GP

Go Texans!
I'd care a lot more about this "exercise in objectivity" if, for once, the findings contradicted the OP's long held stance on the issue.

Another example of someone finding the stats that supports the original opinion. When has someone on here EVER said "Player X is pretty good!" and then found numbers and came back on here and said "Whoops, my bad. Player X sucks really bad!"

Heh. It doesn't happen.

Jacoby Jones' stats heading into 2011 were miles beyond David Anderson's stats. Not even close, except in one category of drops/fumbles IIRC. All other categories, JJ's stats were consuming David's stats like a midnight snack in the hands of a growing teenager. What happened? Jacoby stumbled and bumbled his way out of Houston after 2011........only to go and perform multiple VERY CLUTCH moments with the Ravens, in both the Broncos game and the Super Bowl game, and that tells us the following: Stats. Don't. Matter. Not when you look at the grand scheme of things.

I suppose since stats are kept, we look to them for validation of a player. They're on the back of trading cards, for Pete's Sake! They MUST be worth something. In the end, though, they're just that: Stats. Congrats on your stats! Where's your rings?

Rings > Stats. All day, every day. Forever.

EXAMPLE: This is why, IMO, the Texans let Quin walk. To be honest, he wasn't very clutch heading through December. We had a lot of deep plays thrown on us in the month of December. I think we all cursed at our TVs when we watched deep passes, on multiple situations, get by our safeties. Quin might have just been more of a liability for the dollar he was about to command. Ed Reed is smarter in the defensive backfield, so maybe it's an upgrade in the eyes of the coaches. Ed has more rings and more big-game experience than Quin does. Period. For that alone, it's excusable to let Quin walk. We were going to have to spend that coin on someone, Texans weren't confident in spending THAT coin on Quin. Just as a reference on the whole stats vs. rings example I gave earlier.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Another example of someone finding the stats that supports the original opinion. When has someone on here EVER said "Player X is pretty good!" and then found numbers and came back on here and said "Whoops, my bad. Player X sucks really bad!"

Heh. It doesn't happen.
We're looking at Matt's stats & saying, "See he wasn't that bad."

In another thread, we're looking at Quin's stats & saying, "See he wasn't that good."

But we all acknowledge the stats don't tell the whole story. In this particular instance, the stats were not presented to say, "Look, Schaub is a damn good QB."

They were presented to say, "Look, the gunslingers aren't as gunslingerish as you think." They're all just as conservative as Schaub & his completion percentage on those long balls is just as good.

But around here, you throw the word Stat & Matt Schaub out there & some people don't take the time to understand what context the stats are being presented.

I don't believe you can find anyone on this board to argue Matt played well in December. I may be the only one who would argue he played better in January, but some might misconstrue that & think I said he played well, so I'm not going there.
 

infantrycak

Hall of Fame
I agree with ICak. I don't think Schaub struggles with the deep pass. I think he's quite good... However, I recognize he was awful throwing downfield in December and January. I don't think Icak would disagree with that assertion.
I don't disagree with that assertion at all.

I'd care a lot more about this "exercise in objectivity" if, for once, the findings contradicted the OP's long held stance on the issue.
What long held stance? I posted this thread with very little commentary. I explained the origin which was looking at Big Ben not Matt Schaub.

Everybody is so caught up in trying to make this a general referendum on Schaub which I have denied from the beginning.

Some of the things which struck me as interesting:

1) I was surprised to see the two guys with the biggest arms have such low completion percentages.
2) I was surprised to see the Texans were in line on trying to go down field with quite a few other teams.
3) I was surprised to see Manning and Brady had zero completions of over 40 yards thrown.
4) Frankly Flacco's regular season numbers made the Ravens post-season run more spectacular because they kept trying unsuccessfully during the season and then it paid off in the post-season.
5) I was surprised by the uniformity of TD's and the relative lack of INT's with Brees being the exception on both.
 

handswarmer

Rookie
4) Frankly Flacco's regular season numbers made the Ravens post-season run more spectacular because they kept trying unsuccessfully during the season and then it paid off in the post-season.
.
You have to remember the change in OC's from Cam to Caldwell factored into that disparity.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
You have to remember the change in OC's from Cam to Caldwell factored into that disparity.
another, "handswarmer really needs to go to a Raven's board"

All Infantrycak said was he was surprised about the disparity. That's it. Didn't say he didn't understand the disparity. Didn't say he needed someone to "remind him" that Caldwell is better at coaching the deep ball than Cameron.
 

amazing80

Hall of Fame
An explosive play is considered 20 yds or more. Now you can twist the numbers how you feel,but the tape dont lie. How many times have you seen schaub just drop back on a 7 step drop and throw strikes? What about andre with a step and a half and he has to wait for the ball? They dont show up in the stat sheets, but we've seen it way too many times. You think mike wallace and torrey smith are better wrs than andre? Well both of those guys score more tds than andre because their qb can put it out there without playaction or a windup.
How dare you use your eyes and common sense to determine our qb lacks consistent accuracy on deep throws and hampers this teams explosiveness. Stats tell all. Of course Mike Wallace is better than AJ. What kind of stu..........ya im done being sarcastic, you get the point.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
How dare you use your eyes and common sense to determine our qb lacks consistent accuracy on deep throws and hampers this teams explosiveness. Stats tell all.

I think you're missing the point. The stats say that Matt is inconsistent & inaccurate. They also say that Roethlisberger, Rogers, Brees, Brady, & Manning are just as inconsistent & inaccurate.

What I'm saying, is that we make a mountain out of what is really a mole-hill.

It's not his deep ball, it's his clutch factor.
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Y'all are so busy fighting amongst yourselves that none of y'all took the time to read my post about Dan Pastorini's assessement of Schaub..
I read it. Thought it was insightful from a guy who had the same job and should know what the hell he's talking about.
 

handswarmer

Rookie
another, "handswarmer really needs to go to a Raven's board"

All Infantrycak said was he was surprised about the disparity. That's it. Didn't say he didn't understand the disparity. Didn't say he needed someone to "remind him" that Caldwell is better at coaching the deep ball than Cameron.
Laughable. Mr Internet police.

If you don't want opposing fans here, why not lobby the mods to make a "Members Only" club complete with letter jackets and a monthly circle jerk as part of your paid subscription?

FWIW- infantrycak also didn't say that he DID understand the disparity in Flacco's numbers. A lot of fans of other teams didn't even know we fired our OC after the 13th game of the season.

Lighten up, Francis
 

kingtexan

All Pro
I didn't read all of this post, but it is very apparent that Matt Schaub cant throw the long ball. Hopefully that is what it was pointing out, and not making excuses for his lack of arm strength.
 

Rey

Guest
Where is the stats for how often schaub throws the deep ball off of the bootleg play action where he's throwing into one on one coverage or sometimes to a guy that's wide the hell open?

Schaub is regular. This offense lends itself to generating numbers. He's not doing what big Ben or Brady do. They might do play action at times, but their play action is not nearly the same..their offenses are different.

If those guys were in this offense our team would be deadly.

But instead we are stuck with a qb that's good enough to connect the dots, but can't paint a picture from scratch on an empty canvass.

If you think schaub is good at the longball you're incorrect. Put him in a different offense where he's constantly dealing with safeties over the top instead of this offense where the play design gets receivers in extremely favorable match ups and he's not near this borderline star qb that people believe he is.

Not saying we can't win with schaub, but he's not putting the team on his back and bombing us to wins due to his long ball prowess. Yeah right.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Schaub is regular. This offense lends itself to generating numbers. He's not doing what big Ben or Brady do. They might do play action at times, but their play action is not nearly the same..their offenses are different.

If those guys were in this offense our team would be deadly.

But instead we are stuck with a qb that's good enough to connect the dots, but can't paint a picture from scratch on an empty canvass.

If you think schaub is good at the longball you're incorrect.

Bottom line, the stats show those guys aren't any more successful delivering the long ball than Schaub is. IMO, that means we need to change what we think about the long ball, since our current beliefs aren't supported by the facts. I think, if anything, the stats show us that the long ball doesn't affect the game as much as we think it does. Then again, we did win 12 games.

If Ben & Brady's offenses aren't designed to get their players wide open, then Kubiak is a much better coach than I've been giving him credit for.

It's long been my belief that the thing that separates Schaub from the really-good to great QBs, is that they all have the ability to extend plays. One way or another if there isn't a good throw to be had, they'll either buy time getting out of the pocket, allow the play to develop or a receiver to come open, or they'll do what they need to do to pick up a first down.

Coming back from major neck surgery, Peyton Manning rushed the ball 23 times, picking up 2 first downs. His longest carry went for 10 yards.

By contrast, Schaub didn't pick up a rushing first down until the post season. He crossed the LOS 21 times (& I can't remember one of them) for a -9 yards. His longest run was 8 yards (go figure).

At the same time, I've seen our receivers run their routes, then stop & look to see what's happening. Where on other teams it seems everyone knows what to do when the QB leaves the pocket.

I won't lie, When I saw Matt Schaub play in 2009, I said to myself... we got a good one, maybe great. At that time, the only thing separating Schaub from the great QBs was the wins. I figured as soon as "we" start winning, people will think differently of Matt Schaub.

This, isn't what I had in mind though.
 

Rey

Guest
If Ben & Brady's offenses aren't designed to get their players wide open, then Kubiak is a much better coach than I've been giving him credit for.
Ben and bradys offenses are built around them having more talent at the recieving positions than you can cover. They rely on their talent flat out bearing your db's coverage and having qb's good enough to make plays.

Not that they don't have good play design, but they aren't running plays where the whole offense makes it look like a stretch running plays and then all of a sudden receivers break into their routes.

How many times have you seen schaub on a straight drop back read the coverage, manipulate safeties maybe scramble and escape some pressure and then launch a ball hitting a guy in stride streaking way down the field?

The answer to that may just actually be never.

And if you haven't given kubiak good enough credit as an offensive mind then I don't know what to tell you.

Credit as an overall coach? Not from me. He's about average as a head coach overall.

I don't know qnd haven't thought about the Importance of the long ball being completed at a high rate, but I do know that CIRCUMSTANCES in which schaub delivers his long ball are different than a lot of other qb's based on the design of the offense.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
It's not neccessary to run the play-action out of the ZBS.

The play action is where the QB doesn't take a straight drop back.
He relies on the scheme to draw some defenders up to play the run, and therefore benefit from the scheme.

Great QBs like Montana, Steve Young, Elway flourished in this scheme.

But Manning and Brady got their share of success out of it as well.

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=3185256&src=desktop
 

Rey

Guest
It's not neccessary to run the play-action out of the ZBS.

The play action is where the QB doesn't take a straight drop back.
He relies on the scheme to draw some defenders up to play the run, and therefore benefit from the scheme.

Great QBs like Montana, Steve Young, Elway flourished in this scheme.

But Manning and Brady got their share of success out of it as well.

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=3185256&src=desktop

This thread is about the long ball.

How many of Matt schaubs deep balls come off of straight drop backs compared to other qb's?
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
On the other hand, I don't think the OP started this thread with what you had in mind Rey.

And BTW, if you would, please read the part about how Brady is one of the master of disguising the hand-off.
This is another piece that gives credit to the QB on the play-action, since the Pats rarely run the ZBS.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
RG III ran a lot of play-action off the zone read at Baylor, and then with the Skins.

Andrew Luck got a lot of receivers wide open at Stanford running the play-action off of a man blocking scheme. (Even in man, you can make the blocking looks similar in both run and pass; and besides, you can always pull different lineman to help disguise the look the same (just different in the base concept.)
 

Rey

Guest
On the other hand, I don't think the OP started this thread with what you had in mind Rey.

And BTW, if you would, please read the part about how Brady is one of the master of disguising the hand-off.
This is another piece that gives credit to the QB on the play-action, since the Pats rarely run the ZBS.
This thread is about the success rates and the amount of longballs being thrown.

And a regular play action is not the same as the zone stretch bootleg playaction we run...

A qb can be awesome at faking a handoff, but when you get an entire defense flowing a certain direction and playing like it's a run it's far more effective than a qb faking a handoff no matter how good the fake is.
 

Rey

Guest
RG III ran a lot of play-action off the zone read at Baylor, and then with the Skins.

Andrew Luck got a lot of receivers wide open at Stanford running the play-action off of a man blocking scheme. (Even in man, you can make the blocking looks similar in both run and pass; and besides, you can always pull different lineman to help disguise the look the same (just different in the base concept.)
You're all over the place.

Not going down this rabbit hole with you. :tiphat:
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Romo and the Cowboys got their share of the PA in the man blocking scheme while Aaron Rodgers got plenty of his off the ZBS quite a few years now.

Of course, Andy Reid is a WC guy, so his QBs always benefited from the scheme; from McNabb to Cunningham to Vick.
 
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