Mysteryhunt
Waterboy
mmm pulp fiction
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Texan's Training Camp Report - Michael Smith
- Thread starter chuckm
- Start date
bayoudreamn
Rookie
Runner said:Speak for yourself. I'm learning a lot of fascinating new things.
Is this thread about Michael Smith's report?
:brickwall 
Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
Waterboy
Your saying this with sarcasm but I had to check the thread title twice because I thought it was a carr thread. lol.bayoudreamn said:Is this thread about Michael Smith's report?
The Pencil Neck said:
I didn't say go to the media....... to me that is too far....... but even in the military, you follow the proper chain of command...... going over Capers head, is not breaking the chain, if you went to him first.
Wolf said:
funny, I'm thinking Peyton Manning.....
but for the most part, I agree with you....... but in our situation.... if I'm the QB, if my butt is getting pounded into the dirt, and the best things the coach can come up with is a 1 step drop to beat the blitz.......
sorry, but I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do....... especially if we are 1-10 or something to that effect.
...gotta do what you're told to do by your superior even when you know it won't work or it is not right?...can't rock the boat?...sorry, I don't buy into this thinking...As Kubiak said himself, if one of his Coaches (whether a veteran or newbie) has an idea/comment/opinion or thought about 'anything', he wants to hear about it--thinking that the 'man in charge' does not want to 'hear' from a subordinate or does not want the 'sub' to make a decision on their own w/o 'permisiion' is a 'cop out.'
The chain of command does not exist with only certain people allowed to 'speak out' or make decisions on their own, and this does not translate into disrespect. People move up the 'chain' by displaying the competence and courage to make decisions--how in the world can you run an organization of any kind with a premise of 'silence is golden' and 'my way or the highway.'...gezzzzzzzzzzz
The chain of command does not exist with only certain people allowed to 'speak out' or make decisions on their own, and this does not translate into disrespect. People move up the 'chain' by displaying the competence and courage to make decisions--how in the world can you run an organization of any kind with a premise of 'silence is golden' and 'my way or the highway.'...gezzzzzzzzzzz
D-Vizzl
Waterboy
thunderkyss said:
Ditto; for me it all comes down to decision making. The coaches called a lot of vanilla type plays which were'nt effective, but Carr had the chance to audible to something more effective, not just run left etc ect. David Carr can show you flashes of specialty, but when he does'nt how does it then automatically get blamed on the coaches. This is a results driven business and when it affects you personally you should go out of your way to make sure you are'nt getting a bad rap.
To me I will take the more "logical" approach to what happened in the past, outdated coaching, bad schemes, and players (including the QB) churned out an even effort to make this team what it was (dismal). Let everything sift itself out this year and we will see, but at some point the Carr
's and the Carr Haters will have to be in cahoots at some point and one day we will all see David for what he is, a success or a failure- ALL OF US, but til then why can't we respect each others opinions. "Anything else would be uncivilized"
D-Vizzl
Waterboy
tsip said:
Like Dom always says "I'll say this" if Carr would have went against the gameplan what would have been the repurcussions, they constantly stated how much they had invested into Carr so what would they have done?---I beleive the answer is nothing, they certanly would'nt have benched a non-injured starting QB, too much backlash involved, please come with something else on that front. Good point T-Sip
Several posters have mentioned how threads go on about Carr, posts after post, and want them to stop. How do we do that? It's simple--stop starting threads that keep reminding everyone of all the 'excuses' for David's past performance--stop 'cramming' these excuses down everyone's throat, as they are known 'by heart' and are yesterday's news. It's strange to me that there are very few-if any- threads/posts about Carr in TC. Why? Tell us about how Carr is doing...let's settle this arguement on the field. Too, why do the Carr 's keep on bringing up Young and Bush? They are not here so no one wants to talk about them...
Simple,,,quit bringing up the past...quit posting every quote you can find to justify Carr's existence, as it just
...again, give some feed back on Carr from camp...
's keep on bringing up Young and Bush? They are not here so no one wants to talk about them...Simple,,,quit bringing up the past...quit posting every quote you can find to justify Carr's existence, as it just
...again, give some feed back on Carr from camp...
Wolf
100% Texan
thanks for adding
My thing is everyone is willing to give everyone on the team a clean slate (owner on down for making changes) except some on this board.
hmm what I laugh at is during the last four seasons main game day topics are "playcalling stinks","fire Palmer" "fire Pendry" and can't remember much Carr stinks thread.
all I can say if Kubiak can't turn Carr around then Brady Quinn here we come.
My thing is everyone is willing to give everyone on the team a clean slate (owner on down for making changes) except some on this board.
hmm what I laugh at is during the last four seasons main game day topics are "playcalling stinks","fire Palmer" "fire Pendry" and can't remember much Carr stinks thread.
all I can say if Kubiak can't turn Carr around then Brady Quinn here we come.
Wolf
100% Texan
I find it hard to believe that McNair would run a muti-billion dollar business and keep a guy that he thinks makes a great "Lead" (Carr) when he had a chance to let him go and not sign him an extension
McNair took his "business" and got rid of the management (aka Capers and crew) and replaced them.
with that said and any business. With new managment and the lead has same results .then it is time for a new lead
McNair took his "business" and got rid of the management (aka Capers and crew) and replaced them.
with that said and any business. With new managment and the lead has same results .then it is time for a new lead
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
thunderkyss said:
You can say "you're gonna do" ... but you're not an NFL quarterback, and I suspect you were never even a high school quarterback. It doesn't work that way. Why not David Carr call the defenses too? Make personnel substitutions? Conduct practices? Hell, since Carr has all of this fictional power all of a sudden, why not fire Capers and hire his dad? You can talk all day about systematically changing plays past an occasional audible (which itself must be allowed for by the coaches) but it doesn't happen, period. Not any quarterback for any coach for any team.
Peyton Manning has been given explicit privilege by the coaches to call his own offense at the line. That's very different from Peyton Manning calling his own plays contrary to the coaches' gameplan/orders ... so that's a 100% inapplicable example.
What "you would do" is be benched and unemployed.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
tsip said:Several posters have mentioned how threads go on about Carr, posts after post, and want them to stop. How do we do that? It's simple--stop starting threads that keep reminding everyone of all the 'excuses' for David's past performance--stop 'cramming' these excuses down everyone's throat, as they are known 'by heart' and are yesterday's news. It's strange to me that there are very few-if any- threads/posts about Carr in TC. Why? Tell us about how Carr is doing...let's settle this arguement on the field. Too, why do the Carr
Simple,,,quit bringing up the past...quit posting every quote you can find to justify Carr's existence, as it just
I've posted numerous times (as I've been on the team's sideline for four camp sessions) that Carr is doing well and looks much better this year. See the training camp threads for details. Is that "field doing the talking" enough for you?
"Carr is doing well and looks much better this year. See the training camp threads for details. Is that "field doing the talking" enough for you?"
I'll go back and look again--must have just missed the details, sorry. T was looking for comments on how Carr's reading/progression/selection/quick release/delivery/roll out/throwing on the run/etc. was going instead of 'generic' statements that say he 'looks much better'--not sure what that means...sorry
I'll go back and look again--must have just missed the details, sorry. T was looking for comments on how Carr's reading/progression/selection/quick release/delivery/roll out/throwing on the run/etc. was going instead of 'generic' statements that say he 'looks much better'--not sure what that means...sorry
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
tsip said:
Check the threads for specifics and if you have specific questions that are still unanswered, lemme know, I'll answer them as best I can. For obvious reasons I have paid close attention to Carr throughout camp and will be able to give you a relatively detailed report on him; good and bad. Check those threads and let me know.
Hottoddie
Veteran
gpshafer_1976 said:
gpshafer_1976,
This is an excellent post. You've come a long way from your early days. I've had you on my ignore list for quite some time, but have recently read some of your posts & have been very impressed. It should go without saying, but you're no longer on my ignore list & I look forward to reading more of your posts in the future.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
So how high up the chain can he go? Position coach, then OC, then head coach, then... owner? I'd say it stops at the head coach and if the problem is coming from there, you're just screwed.
And if Carr doesn't go to the media, how do WE know that he didn't go up the chain all the way to the owner? We don't. We don't know that he didn't do exactly what you said he should do.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
tsip said:
You don't know HOW high Carr took his problems up the chain of command unless he airs it in the media and if he airs it in the media, then he's a bad guy. You don't know if Carr's complaints are why Capers is gone or not.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
D-Vizzl said:Let everything sift itself out this year and we will see, but at some point the Carr
"Anything else would be uncivilized"
The strange thing is, I don't consider myself a Carr homer. I don't think he set the moon or anything like that. I just feel like some posters in this forum go out of their way to make weird accusations against him. I mean, "He's the worst QB in 40 years" or that all of our losses and all of those sacks are his fault or that he should have done things to sabotage the coaching staff. I think those things are just going too far. I think some people here really hate him and I don't understand that.
Could Carr have done things differently and better over the past few years? Of course. Does that mean he's a total and complete failure as a QB that we're best just getting rid of? I don't think so.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
texan279 said:
And if you get a reputation as a guy that's a loose cannon like that, you won't find employment in that line of work for very long, either.
texan279 said:
Well, if my boss told me to turn off the red switch but I knew that was the wrong switch, so I turned off the green switch, instead, and saved a 'catastrophe', I'd get an 'atta boy.' However, if I did as he said knowing it was wrong and blew the building up, then, I'd get fired....hopefully, your boss never tells you to jump off a building!!!!!!!!
texan279
Hall of Fame
tsip said:
You forget, last season, the offfense was under Pendry, so more than likely any choice or change Carr would have made as far as playcalling last season would have been like pulling "a red switch". It's not like Pendry had a big book full of awesome plays or anything.
Wolf
100% Texan
tsip said:
this is the problem.if I am at work and it is unethical..yes, I have the right not to do it. but if it isn't something unethical...once I tell a boss no, well I probably won't have a job very long.
IMO there is much more than Carr just calling a different play and going behind Capers back. the WR's have to be on board, the OL has to make the calls for the play.. This isn't out in the playground where their is a 5 2nd rush and someone can wing it
Heck I might be talking out of my piehole.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
tsip said:
Wow. Too bad life isn't that simple.
Gosh, if your boss tells you to slit your throat, would you do it?
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
How about this, if you've got play A where you have one option to go with the ball and an audible B where you have one option to go with the ball and if neither option is good? Which one do you call? You can't call a completely different play. So after you get sacked, you go to the coach and say,"I didn't have any good options." and he tells you to sit down and shut up. What do you do? Throw a temper tantrum and look like a spoiled child?
The bottom line is that we do not know what was going on in these huddles or in those team meetings. We don't know what the plays were, we don't know which plays that it was possible to audible to were, we don't know what the reads were, we don't know who was complained to. From what we CAN tell from where we sit, there was something very wrong with the overall system. Something was not working right. There might be something wrong with the QB, but we just don't know for sure.
Well, some of us don't know for sure. Hopefully after this year we'll know, but there's a possibility that we won't.
D-Vizzl
Waterboy
Not that I beleive this but, could there have been a chance that the conservative play calling was a result of the non-trust Capers and crew may have had when it came to the offense(even though it was their own personell). I don't want to look back but man I would love to know when and how it all went wrong.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
D-Vizzl said:
Exactly, that's what's weird. 2 years ago, everything was starting to click and then wham, everything falls to pieces.
IIRC, Capers' goal was always to keep the game close and then try to win it at the end. He wanted the D to basically win the game and the O not to lose it. To protect Carr, we went to a max-protect scheme that basically crippled us. At least, that was the way I saw it. I think that Capers & Pendry just didn't trust their own o-line.
TwinSisters
Veteran
D-Vizzl said:
Casserly.
GP
Go Texans!
tsip said:
That entire statement sums it up for me, tsip.
Have you not been reading the traning camp coverage, especially of Carr? The reveiws are great so far...there's been a lot of specific details within this message board, from people like jerek and others who are giving us inside looks at our team right now, about Carr finding the right receiver, making the right read, and delivering the ball into the receiver's hands at the right time with the right zip on it. The Carr-AJ hookup is also getting noticed by a lot of people, and they are working like magic again. They've reported that Carr is becoming the vocal leader of the team, and that he's exuding more confidence than ever.
"I'll go back and look again--must have just missed the details, sorry." doesn't cut it when you are ragging the guy and you don't even take the time to see the progression he has made, the very real and factual progression from when he was under Capers and now as he becomes the kind of talent under Kubiak that was expected.
Man, I got flamed so bad last year because I commented on a game that I didn't watch...and I deserved it. Can't talk about it unless you've seen it. And you would do well to read up more on the coverage that's been graciously provided by those who sweat it out and take notes for all of us.
And as The Pencil Neck has noted earlier: Some people HATE David Carr, and that's really all it boils down to. Some people dislike him for his pretty boy looks, some people dislike him for what they think is an arrogant attitude that he carries, some people dislike him because he's an active Christian who honors his authority (Capers) instead of being a cutthroat who should take it all on his shoulders and do what he wants, some people dislike him because he stood in the way of us getting Vince Young, and some people dislike him because he was the QB for a losing team that they wished had been a winning team, and heck...some people probably dislike him just to dislike him.
D-Vizzl
Waterboy
The Pencil Neck said:
See this will be my first season to be on here so I don't know what was going on in this board, but what was the feeling about Carr after the 7-9 season? That's how I can determine whether people are speaking from their heart or if it's wet wood (no good and useable). That can also speak volumes on when it all went wrong with the team.
GP
Go Texans!
thunderkyss said:
You watch too many war movies where the little soldier defies his superior and thus wins the battle with his "quick thinking."
That stuff is bilge. Dung.
You go over your superior's head, you get reprimanded. And you might get worse. They don;t have that sort of philosophy in the military that you are describing.
If anything, the military tells you to NOT think for yourself, to follow your commander's instructions to the letter. Officers make the calls, and grunts get it done. Maybe in the super elite forces you'll see some guys given freedoms in how they maneuver, etc., but even still it's a far cry from total anarchy where if you don't get what you want you can go over your superior's head and gripe to his superior.
On an ethical or moral situation? Maybe. But not on the basic premise or idea of organizational performance. You do what you're told. You make a suggestion (IF you are granted permission to speak "freely" as they say) and then you grit your teeth and grin about it when your idea is rejected.
No, the best organization is the one where ulitmately (note that I said "ultimately") the decisions rest in the hands of those are entrusted to make those calls, and you let the chips fall where they may when and if that decision gets carried out and fails or succeeds.
It wasn't on Carr's back to get it done, in terms of playcalling. Capers and Pendry made absolutely sure that the world knew that THEY called the plays and the QB carried them out.
So, "yeah" I agree with what was said in another post: Kubiak wants people to speak up. But don't think for a second that that's how it worked with Capers, and don't think for a second that if you are heard by Kubiak...but he disagrees with you...that you are going to get to do your own thing.
"That entire statement sums it up for me, tsip."
Well, I went back and read the 3 pg recap of the Sat practice and found 2 sentences about Carr and 1 sentence about Carr and Sage together. I guess I expected to hear more and you expected to hear less but-oh,well, I'll go back and see what I missed in the other days threads.
Well, I went back and read the 3 pg recap of the Sat practice and found 2 sentences about Carr and 1 sentence about Carr and Sage together. I guess I expected to hear more and you expected to hear less but-oh,well, I'll go back and see what I missed in the other days threads.
Wolf
100% Texan
D-Vizzl said:
some still didn't like him and to me most of the big discussions where his hair and being a pretty boy..
at the end of the season, (and I can't speak for all,0bviously)..we or atleast I felt the team made strides and we anxious for the 2005 season, worries were that we still needed to improve on defense due to our veterans getting long in the tooth and the offense still needed a TE.. Carr still needed to keep progressing and learn to read defenses better.
that is what i can remember but boy that was a long time ago
Wolf
100% Texan
gpshafer_1976 said:
I can agree with that.. both sides of the ball just didn't have the confidence in the gameplanning that was happening and it was a shame.. I mean what were we 4 weeks into the season and Palmer gets canned.. if that were to happen, it should have happened in the offseason..
for the life of me, no one has(that I can remember) gave an explaination of why Palmer was always the scapegoat and Fangio (who had probowl/solid players from the get go) never got bashed for a defense that couldn't pressure the Qb, couldn't create turnovers and couldn't stop teams on 3rd and long.
GP
Go Texans!
Well, here's a clip so you can see for yourself:
http://www.khou.com/sharedcontent/Vi...9747&catId=505
I like the second clip where you see Carr stand in the pocket, duck a defender a little bit, always keeping his eyes open and not on assuming the fetal position, and then delivering a strike to the receiver.
Granted, it's not a real team of defenders out there...but he's looking better.
And as far as finding the posts you're aksing about...I don't know exactly where they are at. I read stuff from houstonprofootball.com which provides good analysis, I read the stuff here, and I watch clips like the one I posted above.
You gotta' go and find it. There's too much to sort through for me to find it for you. Sometimes I spend an hour or longer scanning past posts and threads just trying to find the one nugget that I knew was there..and needed for something...but couldn't remember what thread it was a part of.
http://www.khou.com/sharedcontent/Vi...9747&catId=505
I like the second clip where you see Carr stand in the pocket, duck a defender a little bit, always keeping his eyes open and not on assuming the fetal position, and then delivering a strike to the receiver.
Granted, it's not a real team of defenders out there...but he's looking better.
And as far as finding the posts you're aksing about...I don't know exactly where they are at. I read stuff from houstonprofootball.com which provides good analysis, I read the stuff here, and I watch clips like the one I posted above.
You gotta' go and find it. There's too much to sort through for me to find it for you. Sometimes I spend an hour or longer scanning past posts and threads just trying to find the one nugget that I knew was there..and needed for something...but couldn't remember what thread it was a part of.
D-Vizzl
Waterboy
Wolf said:
So maybe it is just a we hate Carr type crusade going on, still hating him after a 3500 yard season and promising future? Maybe I need to go back to the inagural season to see how some felt then? All I know is that I may not be a big Carr enthusiast, but I'd prefer to root for a winner, and if we are busy getting new QB's in then we will have to hear that rebuilding word that I hate so much,in which they (Texans) will ask for a few more years to get it tigether. Win now or show some significant promise that's all I need from the guy. Fairly or unfairly criticized, just make it happen now BA-BY
WWX
Noob
chuckm said:
Thank you for posting the article and it was indeed a good read.
Im one person who never wanted capers in the first place. Every year I waited to see if he would get fired. FINALLY!!! And this couldnt have happened at a better time because Kub is a genius IMO. He worked directly with Steve Young, John Elway, and won SBs with both. Look at what the man has already brought to this team via the draft and by other means. Kubs not a little ***** like the former coach. He doesnt do what the fans want to gain popularity. His full intention is to gain respect by doing one thing only, winning games. Look at the admiration he already receives from players, coaches.
As for Carr, he has a good arm, good athleticism, and now a good coaching staff. And if he would have played a decent year in 05 then that capers crew would still be on H-Town turf, and Id be sitting around still waiting for him to be fired. Another long year would have gone by. I have seen the problems that have persisted in Davids NFL career. My main concern was his timing and vision. But before I dog him Ill give him some time with a good coach, watch him run a well designed offensive system, and then see if he truly has what it takes. And I think hes got it.
My point is simple, most of the blame, IMO, should lie in the lap of the coach we fired.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
D-Vizzl said:So maybe it is just a we hate Carr type crusade going on, still hating him after a 3500 yard season and promising future? Maybe I need to go back to the inagural season to see how some felt then? All I know is that I may not be a big Carr enthusiast, but I'd prefer to root for a winner, and if we are busy getting new QB's in then we will have to hear that rebuilding word that I hate so much,in which they (Texans) will ask for a few more years to get it tigether. Win now or show some significant promise that's all I need from the guy. Fairly or unfairly criticized, just make it happen now BA-BY
What exactly is it that you think we are doing??? New front office, new coaching staff, a slew of new players.....we scrapped pretty much EVERYBODY except Carr and are starting over....we are rebuilding....you know that 5 year plan we heard so much about? Well start the clock over to year 1, because that just happened. You can go back to the inagural season if you like......I was nothing but optimistic about the man...gave him a pass his first 2 years......but he never showed the growth he needed to show.
Wolf
100% Texan
D-Vizzl said:So maybe it is just a we hate Carr type crusade going on, still hating him after a 3500 yard season and promising future? Maybe I need to go back to the inagural season to see how some felt then? All I know is that I may not be a big Carr enthusiast, but I'd prefer to root for a winner, and if we are busy getting new QB's in then we will have to hear that rebuilding word that I hate so much,in which they (Texans) will ask for a few more years to get it tigether. Win now or show some significant promise that's all I need from the guy. Fairly or unfairly criticized, just make it happen now BA-BY
as I think this season I expect Carr to be up with the 2004 season stats or better..that is my expectation.
tsip here is a link that probably sums everything up that every argument/counter argument that has been brought up
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zo...t=24272&highlight=training+camp+Carr+improved
I personally don't know how any QB could endure the punishment that has happened in houston and be successfull.. As great as Payton Manning is, we saw his game when he got hammered time and time again agains the Steelers .. we saw Kurt Warner after he got pounded and hurt.. (has he came back to form yet?) Aikman took poundings early in his career but they (the Cowboys fixed that before permanent damage hit.
Is Carr going to be like those QB's? who knows.. I just want a solid QB that doesn't turn the ball over and doesn't hurt the team. I am not worried if he goes to probowl year after year (would be nice)
I would think we all would be in agreement with that
Wolf
100% Texan
swtbound07 said:
reminds me of how people hated on wells for 2 years and we had some OL that could finally Run block and DD did so well.. people hated on Wells, then DD gets hurt and Wells runs behind the same line as what DD ran and had comparable stats .. everybody starts liking Wells
for the record... I liked Wells and I liked DD, but for body size.. If Wells would have ran as hard as DD, he'd still be with the team
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
Wolf said:
I didn't say that it was carr's fault he didnt get fired. Thats Mcnair's.....pure and simple.
Look, my analogy to Carr is simple. Its one of a grocery store.
You go shopping for a can of vegetables. You have 2 cans of vegetables....one is shiny and new, one has obviously been dented up a bit. which one do you want running your dinner? A new, untested, can, or a dented up can? You don't know that either of them can hold up the weight of an entire meal. Granted, they have both shown potential in the amateur del monte league, but really....which one do you choose?
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
Wolf said:
neither one of them has proven their veggie worth at this point