Running backs, linemen--what is not working.

[Texans_Chick]

I have a hard time understanding why Kubes went out and got Sherman to coach the O-line...If we are going to try to run the ZBS why didn't he go get an O-line coach from a team that ran ZBS...or atleast someone who was familar with it....Heck he could have even brought someone over from Denver that was familar with it...

That is what I would like for the real media to ask:

Is the offensive line blocking coached different than the Denver ZBS, (I am pretty sure the answer is yes, but you can't find that info anywhere), and if so, how and why?

I am quite sure that Sherman is familiar with zone blocking--I am just wondering why they are running it the way they are.

 

[threetoedpete]

I believe it's been about even....Travis,Babin, Mario....A.J,Carr,D.Rob....Am I missing someone ???

You have an unequal equation there Royal. I got Babs and the Johnson not named Derick in the duds column. Jury is still out on Mario. If you're saying we drafted them first round yes. I'm saying there ain't an o lineman amongst that lot. You pick guys in the first, and yes there's no gaurentee, you looking for a little more than servicable ablity out to them. My point was...do we stick to the same old theme of going after the Adrian Peterson's, LaRon Landry's or does this franchise do a 360 and actually have more than a BPA plan this year ? The BPA plan, by these results, has not been effective for this oganization. At some point, you've gotta fix the o-line. That's paramount. Everything else is hog wash. Drafting a stud wr when you can't get the ball down the feild is just...stupid. Drafting a power running back for a zone blocking scheme team...is just stupid. Especailly when they can't open holes with the personel they have now ? Free safty is a critacal need. I can't ague that. Corner is a critacal need I can't argue that one either. But if you can't run the ball, can't protect the QB to throw down the feild, waiting for someone to drop in your lap after five drafts, is not acceptible to me any more. Fix the GD o-line. Then we can go after the pretty skill players. Untill they do that, it's going to be the same old same old year after year . Kubs is a greatg leadeer, Carr sucks, what's wrong with the o-line...yada yada yada...

Just getting old.

 

[HOU-TEX]

I have a hard time understanding why Kubes went out and got Sherman to coach the O-line...If we are going to try to run the ZBS why didn't he go get an O-line coach from a team that ran ZBS...or atleast someone who was familar with it....Heck he could have even brought someone over from Denver that was familar with it...

Good point! That thought crossed my mind when we brought him in here. I didn't think much of it at the time. Personally, I believe he was brought in to be a mentor type of coach for Kubiak. It appears his influence on the offense has been detrimental to the ZBS.

 

[mexican_texan]

Broncos | Team works out L. Suggs
Wed, 18 Oct 2006 07:59:28 -0700

Bill Williamson, of the Denver Post, reports the Denver Broncos worked out free agent RB Lee Suggs (Browns) Tuesday, Oct. 17.

Proof that we are going after Lee Suggs.

 

[ojthecat]

That is what I would like for the real media to ask:

Is the offensive line blocking coached different than the Denver ZBS, (I am pretty sure the answer is yes, but you can't find that info anywhere), and if so, how and why?

I am quite sure that Sherman is familiar with zone blocking--I am just wondering why they are running it the way they are.

I can not blame the coach for our lack of blocking and running. Blame Sherman if you want but name 2 of our linemen that would be starting on any other team. The fact is out talent is sub par.

 

[Vinny]

Proof that we are going after Lee Suggs.

They have better backs than us but they are still working out guys like Suggs.

*sigh*

 

[real]

I can not blame the coach for our lack of blocking and running. Blame Sherman if you want but name 2 of our linemen that would be starting on any other team. The fact is out talent is sub par.

Pitts...Flannagan....McKinney....Spencer(if healthy)....

Now name ONE of our RB's that would start with another team....

 

[Vinny]

McKinney and Flannagan would have trouble starting anywhere else imo

 

[Runner]

I can not blame the coach for our lack of blocking and running.

I can.

The moves the new regime has made on the o-line have been mixed. One very good draft pick (if we can judge by 1.5 games of regular season play), one draft pick we have little game data on, and some free agent signings that are as much to blame for the poor blocking as Pitts, Weary, and McKinney. Make no mistake - the existing Texans players get their share of the blame, but the new additions haven't shown much either.

Talent evaluation is a big part of coaching, as is putting the player in a position to succeed.

 

[real]

McKinney and Flannagan would have trouble starting anywhere else imo

I think they could start in Oakland and Arizona...for sure...

 

[Vinny]

I think they could start in Oakland and Arizona...for sure...

Grove Jake and Barry Sims are not bad inside so I don't think they could start at Oakland. They have Tackle problems. Arizona has good young centers in Nick Leckey and Alex Stepanovich...but they do start Milford Brown at G.

 

[mexican_texan]

Green Bay probably would've started Flannagan.

 

[Texans_Chick]

I can not blame the coach for our lack of blocking and running. Blame Sherman if you want but name 2 of our linemen that would be starting on any other team. The fact is out talent is sub par.

Well yeah the talent is not what you want.

The reason in a copy cat league that more teams do not copy Denver's success with their form of ZBS is that it is difficult to get the personnel in place to run it and it is difficult to teach. Denver's line gets good at what they do because the kind of linemen they are makes them less attractive to teams that use more road grater linemen.

Atlanta has had some recent success with their run game, but they were able to steal Alex Gibbs. Sherman was probably the best out of the offensive line coaches we could have gotten in the offseasion.

Sherman and Kubiak are involved with talent evaluation, who they keep and who they don't. I think there was some belief that through Sherman's experience, the guys they had could be coached up. Probably more wishful thinking than not, and they were jinxed as it related to Spencer, but with all the holes the team has, it is hard to get all the guys you want in one offseason.

 

[Vinny]

Denver's line gets good at what they do because the kind of linemen they are makes them less attractive to teams that use more road grater linemen.

also, Denver didn't get great production overnight. Most of their players have been in the same system for a while now. Stability and gathering your kind of player one piece at a time takes longer than one offseason with the kind of line we had.

 

[tsip]

Well yeah the talent is not what you want.

The reason in a copy cat league that more teams do not copy Denver's success with their form of ZBS is that it is difficult to get the personnel in place to run it and it is difficult to teach. Denver's line gets good at what they do because the kind of linemen they are makes them less attractive to teams that use more road grater linemen.

Atlanta has had some recent success with their run game, but they were able to steal Alex Gibbs. Sherman was probably the best out of the offensive line coaches we could have gotten in the offseasion.

Sherman and Kubiak are involved with talent evaluation, who they keep and who they don't. I think there was some belief that through Sherman's experience, the guys they had could be coached up. Probably more wishful thinking than not, and they were jinxed as it related to Spencer, but with all the holes the team has, it is hard to get all the guys you want in one offseason.

...and what if we never get those 'rare,special' players that can mesh together to form a kind of OL that is even rarer in the NFL than the players needed to play it successfully....

...trying so hard to be 'Denver South' may be our 'down fall'

instead, with a larger pool of players to pick from, maybe we should have started with a more traditional OL that would have probably 'played' to our player's strength... WOW,,,Gary promised to do that....

 

[Texans_Chick]

...and what if we never get those 'rare,special' players that can mesh together to form a kind of OL that is even rarer in the NFL than the players needed to play it successfully....

...trying so hard to be 'Denver South' may be our 'down fall'

instead, with a larger pool of players to pick from, maybe we should have started with a more traditional OL that would have probably 'played' to our player's strength... WOW,,,Gary promised to do that....

That is a question that I repeatedly talked about on my Chronic blog this summer. Can you replicate the Denver system?

A lot of Denver fans believe you can with Kubiak and the other Denver hires, but that you have to have patience to get the right personnel in, and that it takes some time before you feel comfortable enough with what you are doing so that you are just playing the game and not thinking so much.

I guess we get to find out.

 

[ojthecat]

Well yeah the talent is not what you want.

Exactly, Look once we get a better Running back and 2 more OL that are of at least average talent, we will not be having this discussion. We have 2 very competent offensive minded coaches and to blame them when we all know that we do not have even average talent well I belive that is wrong.

We got into this mess because of bad talent evaluation and injurys. It will take a couple of more drafts to get us out of our mess. But I cant wait for the day the we can and do control the line by running the ball.

 

[tsip]

That is a question that I repeatedly talked about on my Chronic blog this summer. Can you replicate the Denver system?

A lot of Denver fans believe you can with Kubiak and the other Denver hires, but that you have to have patience to get the right personnel in, and that it takes some time before you feel comfortable enough with what you are doing so that you are just playing the game and not thinking so much.

I guess we get to find out.

Now-if we continue on the Denver way-the question becomes what will happen first-- a) we get there or b) we run out of time--a scenario not unlike what faced Capers.....

 

[Texans_Chick]

Now-if we continue on the Denver way-the question becomes what will happen first-- a) we get there or b) we run out of time--a scenario not unlike what faced Capers.....

Kubiak has an offensive philosophy. One that has put up wildly prolific numbers in Denver.

Capers had no offensive philosophy other than hoping that the offense held on to the ball. It was a mish mash of Palmer, Capers meddling with Palmer, Pendry-Palmer having dissimilar philosophies--basically a mess.

I do not see the scenario the same, other than fans do not have much patience. I have no confidence, based on what I saw of Capers ball that any amount of time he was given would had led to that offense looking any better.

Most assistant coaches become head coaches because there is something that they have done that they are good at that they can take with them someplace else. So you want to have a borrowed philosophy to some degree because something born of nothing is not likely to work.

 

[HJam72]

I think the previous regime sucked, as a whole, and the new regime needs time, mainly to get the right players in place. Time that we are only reluctantly putting up with because the past regime inadvertantly screwed us out of 4 yrs. of buildup that should have us playing highly competitive football by now. We're just going to have to deal with it as fans. I'm sure that Kubiak can get us going in the right direction, but this year is sadly going to be one where it is hard to see what little progress has been made. The O-line is neither right for Kubiak's ZBS, nor right for traditional run blocking. It's stuck in the middle right now, so we may not even be better than last year, except that Carr is being coached well for a change and will hopefully turn out to be at least descent. I don't want to get all into Carr talk, but I believe he's shown major improvement despite the 2 ints. Sunday and other obvious arguments against that belief. I've no doubt at least that he's getting coached well and that's really my only point right now about him.