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Resign Leach or Elite WR 2?
- Thread starter mugrakers
- Start date
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
agreed. we need $ to improve the defense. we can find someone who can help at FB. let him go to a team that may be closer to winning and is more run-oriented. Ravens, Jets, Bears, or someone like that.
We CAN NOT afford to spend huge money at FB especially with the coming salary cap rule changes. Lots of teams are going to need to add payroll and chances are Leach will get some very rich offers. Some teams are going to be forced to add upwards of 40 or 50 million in payroll under assumed terms. Those teams will be very active and may be more willing to overpay for quality. Traditionally inactive FA players like the Bills, Bengals, Browns, Jags, etc. will be forced to sign FAs and re-sign existing players to lucrative contracts just to meet the minimum salary cap requirement.
Now what you hope is that some of the higher salary teams have to jettison quality players thus increasing the FA pond's stock. I really think these proposed new rules will inflate FA contracts this year. I'll pay an inflated market rate for a DB but a FB? not so sure.
I hope Smith is prepared. I hope McNair and Kubiak are prepared. These next 6 weeks are going to go a long way to determining our team's future. And to say the new rules favor teams that draft well is an understatement.
What do you consider huge money for a pro bowl FB who just led the way for the NFL rushing champion? What would you reconsider as huge money if we don't sign him and the Texans have a subpar year running the football? I'm not talking about breaking the bank for Leach, but I do want the Texans to put an honest effort into re-signing him.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
so do I. I just don't want to invest too much of our efforts in a position that isn't as essential as your secondary. He is going to have to take a slight discount to stay based on the offers that I assume he will get from under cap teams with a need at FB.
I love Leach but paying a top FB top RB money may not be smart especially considering we still have yet to pay Foster. There are alot of good FBs out there that could fit our system. As good as Leach? Probably not, but he would also cost about 1/10th of Leach. Leaving the remaining 9/10 to more seriously pursue needs at positions far more critical than FB.
I do get what you are saying, and you just want to reward a good player. 9 times out of 10 I would agree, but it being about a FB changes that for me.
As for the original question. I would rather have Santonio Holmes over Leach. Without question. Leach or Braylon Edwards? Closer to call but still probably Edwards. I think he could be incredible if some of AJ's work ethic and professionalism rubbed off on him. Braylon has game and isn't a bad guy. In fact, he hated on LeBron LONG before it was fashionable. It got him run out of town....i am sure he was really sad going from Cleveland to New York and 2 straight AFC Championship Games.
I hope we can sign Leach and sign quality help for our secondary and defense, in general.
I think Leach is looking for around the $4 mil a year range. That's hardly top RB money. If we sign Braylon Edwards, I'm becoming a Saints fan until Smithiak is fired. There's no way in hell I want his bricks dropping Schaubs passes. We get enough of that with JJ.
This. Foster would not have won the rushing title without him.
He's another unsung hero of this offense. Do not underestimate his impact. JMO
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
You serious with this?? Holmes wouldn't even make a good #2 WR?? Have you ever watched the guy play?? He has been one of the most clutch performing WR's in the entire league the last few years making one huge game breaking play after another at the end of games and even did it to win a SB winning the MVP. He's easily a #1 WR on most teams. He'd be fantastic as a #2 WR and he's light years ahead of guys like Breaston.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Agreed. I say resign Leach. I don't know about Foster being toast or anything like that, but he is very big in this offense and the guy on the first page that said that the FB position is one of dinosaurs ask Foster what he feels about that or ask LT how he feels about that after losing his Pro Bowl FB that helped him become one of the beset RB's of all time all those years.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
Would have no problem with $4 million a year. Just offset the extra cost with a vet minimum backup FB. I think he will be offered more than that with this new deal going down. If you need to add payroll, getting arguably the best FB in league at 5 or 6million may seem like a good proposition. How about him blocking for Gore in San Fran. They aren't going to be able to throw the ball. They are a low salary team that Leach would make sense with. Harbaugh utilizes the FB or at least his coaches did at Stanford.
I think you are being a bit harsh on Edwards. He is an underachiever, no doubt. But put him with AJ and I think you get good bang for the buck if you want a new #2WR. Personally, I could care less about the offense. We move the ball and we score points. We have to address the defense and if it takes taking a step back on offense to take two steps forward on defense, you are at least moving forward as a team.
This defense was an embarassment to the game of football. That it took the end of the season to fire that failure of a hire Bush, is beyond me.
Matt should have been one of the hottest QBs in the league last year with multiple come-from-behind wins but instead we get come-from-ahead losses because of our defense. Matt is fine with what we got. everyone on the team knows the defense is where the problem is.
Whoever we get, we are going to have to overpay for them. Everyone is going to be overpaying to get guys locked up quick due to how much activity there is going to be by teams.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
I agree with previous poster that Braylon Edwards makes sense if price is right. He has good return game skills too. Something we need.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
When has Braylen ever been a returner??
The dude is just an awful WR. Can't catch to save his life and on top of that he has an ego to go with it. No thanks. I'd rather keep Walter over Edwards any day of the week.
Yep!
Unless you consider the Texans secondary, the game is "usually" won/lost in the trenches.
Even THAT list has Leach ranked higher.
Heck, why not trade AJ for more depth...who needs the number one guy at his position?
Doppelganger
None
Disagree here. Overpaying for a FB is not like overpaying for other positions. At the end of the day, its pretty cheap. Having Leach, opens up the running game which allows the Texans to control the clock and wear down the opposing D. It is psychologically draining as a D to watch a team march down the field by running the ball down your throats. By pounding the ball with multiple backs, we can open up the passing game to AJ, OD, and swing the pass out to Foster. Even if we got a very good #2 WR, they would still be a 3rd or 4th passing option. Leach is also a studly blocker on pass routes and has good enough hands to be a passing target.
For the money it would take Leach makes much more sense than a 3rd or 4th receiving target.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I'm very easy to please.
1) I want Leach re-signed.
2) I want a FA #2 WR brought in and KW moved down to #3 and JJ gone.
3) Although I would prefer Aso, I want at least one of the top 5-6 CBs signed.
4) Although I would prefer Weddle, I would accept one of the top 2-3 SSs.
And I want it all done as soon as FA starts.
Get it done.
1) I want Leach re-signed.
2) I want a FA #2 WR brought in and KW moved down to #3 and JJ gone.
3) Although I would prefer Aso, I want at least one of the top 5-6 CBs signed.
4) Although I would prefer Weddle, I would accept one of the top 2-3 SSs.
And I want it all done as soon as FA starts.
Get it done.
I don't think Foster would have been toast without Leach. But, I have no doubt that Leach helped Foster to the rushing title.
You're right, Foster said it himself, that Leach deserves major credit for his success. I'm not buying into the dinosaur angle. People like to write off old-school positions and styles all the time, but it is clear that FB is not extinct. (I remember when the run & shoot, cover 2, or running QBs, were all supposed to redefine the NFL...but things always have a way of evening out in the end.)
Leach was the only FB in the NFLN's Top 100 as voted by the players. FB might not be a premier position, but we have the best one available right now. Why give that up when he wants to be here? I think he's harder to replace than a #2 WR at this point.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Yeah, and it's not like our passing game struggling any way. Hell, people forget that a healthy Owen Daniels is better in the passing game than most #2 WR's around the league. The combination of him and Walter is not bad at all. I do want to upgrade Walter though. Right now I'd rather focus using funds on defensive positions and if we were to upgrade at a #2 WR position than get a proven guy that would come here on the cheap. Stay away from clowns like Chad Johnson who would ask for a lot and aren't that good anymore. Guys like Breaston and Steve Smith would be good #2 WR's right now.
Now there is a man with a plan.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Steve Smith would be a nice addition to this team for the right price. Either way we need to resign Leach and get some defensive players.
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Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
Totally agree. If anyone doubts Leach's value to the offense, see first game of last season. Watch the pony linebackers get out of his way in the 2nd half. THe running game and it's success is what opens up the passing game for this team and makes the offense go.
Allstar
Bona fide
He's probably thinking of Brad Smith.
I'd rather give Holliday a shot at KO returns and that safety we drafted, Shiloh??, is supposed to be a good punt returner.
I disagree with the last sentence.
Even if we are running the ball well a lot of times our passing game stinks.
When we got behind last year and we stopped running as much our passing game flourished.
I'm torn on leach.
I'd like to have him back, but I don't think he's as valuable as a lot of people seem to.
Last year when we took leach off the field and opened up the offense we moved the ball more effectively. Leach is like a specialty player in that he is not on the field as often as a lot of the other starters and he really only provides value in one aspect of the offense. Now his impact is tremendous in that area, he is a leader on the team. He adds a level of toughness. Leach is a monster at what he does. But leach has been here for a few years and he was not a player that people would have said was a main cog in our offense.
Arian foster made vonta known. Not the other way around. Leach is famous for running through fools, but a fb that simply blocks his man would probably be almost as effective. Arian would still have the burst to get to the second level and he'd still have the vision and ability to make people miss.
If vonta is blocking for Ajman green or samkon gado or Ron dayne his devastating blocks don't get the hype that they are getting.
Would love to have him back because he no doubt makes Arians job easier. I also like to see players become long time fixtures.
On the other hand I think the running game would be just fine with Casey blocking and I think the offense as a whole may be better because Casey is mote versatile. This offense has played better in recent years with a more wide open attack.
I think that if we don't have leach we'd open up the offense more. Casey could line up as a fb and motion to the slot or up on the line as a second te. He'd be a real threat in the passing game and he'd keep defenses from stacking the box just because he's in the game. He's a very talented guy and I think that this would be a great opportunity for him to showcase his skills.
On the other hand vonta is the hammer. He crushes people and that's something I love to see.
I think in the end though I'm leaning towards the unpopular opinion of letting him walk because I don't think he impacts the offense overall in the same way that I think Casey could.
Jmo.
I'd like to have him back, but I don't think he's as valuable as a lot of people seem to.
Last year when we took leach off the field and opened up the offense we moved the ball more effectively. Leach is like a specialty player in that he is not on the field as often as a lot of the other starters and he really only provides value in one aspect of the offense. Now his impact is tremendous in that area, he is a leader on the team. He adds a level of toughness. Leach is a monster at what he does. But leach has been here for a few years and he was not a player that people would have said was a main cog in our offense.
Arian foster made vonta known. Not the other way around. Leach is famous for running through fools, but a fb that simply blocks his man would probably be almost as effective. Arian would still have the burst to get to the second level and he'd still have the vision and ability to make people miss.
If vonta is blocking for Ajman green or samkon gado or Ron dayne his devastating blocks don't get the hype that they are getting.
Would love to have him back because he no doubt makes Arians job easier. I also like to see players become long time fixtures.
On the other hand I think the running game would be just fine with Casey blocking and I think the offense as a whole may be better because Casey is mote versatile. This offense has played better in recent years with a more wide open attack.
I think that if we don't have leach we'd open up the offense more. Casey could line up as a fb and motion to the slot or up on the line as a second te. He'd be a real threat in the passing game and he'd keep defenses from stacking the box just because he's in the game. He's a very talented guy and I think that this would be a great opportunity for him to showcase his skills.
On the other hand vonta is the hammer. He crushes people and that's something I love to see.
I think in the end though I'm leaning towards the unpopular opinion of letting him walk because I don't think he impacts the offense overall in the same way that I think Casey could.
Jmo.
El Tejano
Hall of Fame
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Other than the first more effectively comment I am pretty much in agreement with this. I want Leach re-signed but at a reasonable price. He isn't on the field for more than half the offensive snaps. He does add value for non-playtime conduct. When AJ went of on Innigen Leach very calmly went and calmed AJ down first and then flew into the pile and chucked a dude out of it.
But to the original question, I think we have an elite #2 (I don't care if it he lines up at WR or TE) in OD and a very solid #3 in Walter so if the money was even I would sign Leach. He isn't indispensable but the need to upgrade a second receiver isn't that important either.
El Tejano
Hall of Fame
I agree with you here but in regards to your comment about non-playtime conduct value. I would also like to mention that appearantly he is an asset to the special teams as well. I'll admit I don't know how much value he brings there but I'd like to know exactly what it is because that's important too. I do recall that he handles the squib kicks rather well but that's all I've ever noticed but that's only because he's getting the ball. However the coaches have mentioned that he has alot of ST value.
El Tejano
Hall of Fame
I got to thinking about the possibility of losing JJ and started looking around for possible replacements for our #2 receiver as well. The more I look at this list, the more I'm starting to see how Brad Smith from the Jets would be an awesome pick up. He's more than capable to challenge KW for the #2 but he is also a better receiver and has alot of return capabilities where he doesn't give you a heart attack when he goes back to receive a punt like JJ. On top of all that, he's also a former QB and I believe I've seen him run some out the backfield with NYJ.
To me he provides so much more than just a #2 WR and that brings up his value.
To me he provides so much more than just a #2 WR and that brings up his value.
playa465
Veteran
Why do you think he could be a #2....I've seen nuttin out of him to warrant challenging to be a #2, maybe a#3 and special team ace. He does add versatility though but not JJ's explosiveness...jmo
El Tejano
Hall of Fame
I agree with you that he isn't really a #2 but if we lose JJ, we have to replace him and showing Brad Smith that he would have the possibility of being a #2 would lure him to us. If he doesn't take KW's spot, then he more than effectively replaces JJ>
Edwards is a loser. I'm surprised anyone would offer him a contract. He should of been black balled from the NFL for giving up on his team in 2008. Do you really want a guy that gives up when things arent going well?
SteveSlaton20
Rookie
I would want him on the Texans because he'd be easily the 2nd best WR on the team and KW would be more effective as the slot WR imo. And if we do get him/Plaxico/Holmes, we'll have AJ, OD, AF, and a good #2 receiver to be a threat in the Red Zone.
H.C.4100-Bloc
Practice Squad
You have to resign him.....best FB in the game
TEXANRED
Texan-American
I don't get all the Edwards love. I think he is a chump. He drops passes, he's not clutch, and now he has a DWI to contend with.
Jacoby is the upgrade to Edwards.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
what do you think about the Texans just signing two, count that 2 FB's off undrafted free agent wire?
SteveSlaton20
Rookie
Braylon Edwards:
53 Receptions, 904 yards, 7 Touchdowns, 17.1 YPC, 4 drops.
Jacoby Jones:
51 Receptions, 562 yards, 3 Touchdowns, 11 YPC, 7 drops.
From this article, Edwards was in the top 15 for drop percentage(6.06%), while JJ was in the bottom 15(12.07%).
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/23/drop-percentage/
So tell me how exactly JJ is an upgrade to Edwards. No really, tell me.
El Tejano
Hall of Fame
I think they are insurance if Leach is gone or they already know Leach is gone. But if you can pick up a guy who, to me, is more athletic than Leach and is also a proven FB in the league, why not?
TEXANRED
Texan-American
JJ is faster, more athletic, younger, and our #3 reciever looks like their #1 receiver.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Texans R building competition for camp in all positions 4 cheap where they have free agents who may command top market prices to keep, Leach, Jacoby & Butler. Houston is shedding contracts to strengthen position for Nnamdi Asomugha or next best proven CB services.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Remember that instead of 80 players going to camp, this year there are 90. We've got more room for camp bodies.
El Tejano
Hall of Fame
Texans R building competition for camp in all positions 4 cheap where they have free agents who may command top market prices to keep, Leach, Jacoby & Butler. Houston is shedding contracts to strengthen position for Nnamdi Asomugha or next best proven CB services.
Can't get mad at that. Just hope it works out. At least they are showing to do something about a weakness if so.
SteveSlaton20
Rookie
Edwards had a faster 40 times than JJ. you're just talking out of your a** dude.