I think the biggest difference is that the S-OLB in a 3-4 is expected to be a better pass rusher than than the OLB in a 4-3.
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Recovering Barwin slated for key role in 3-4
- Thread starter EllisUnit
- Start date
JimBaker488
Waterboy
I just don't know if that's correct ? I know Dallas drafted Anthony Spencer out of Purdue 3 or 4 years ago in the 1st round, and he was known to be a very talented pass-rusher, and he played as their strong-side OLB and I believe was their primary pass-rusher after Ware ? But you think the DE on the strong-side was really the top pass-rusher after Ware and not Spencer ?
nero THE zero
All Pro
Doesn't really matter. Dale's contention was that Schobel wasn't athletic enough to play a DE position for us the stands up a few times per game. If the Patriots deemed him athletic enough to play either side OLB, regardless of any differences in assignment, he's athletic enough to stand up a few times a game for us.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
"Role" and "position" are not the same thing. I don't doubt that some 3-4 teams may think Schobel would be a realistic fit for them in certain situations. Once again, I'm saying that Schobel would not be able to do what the Texans had planned with Barwin. Barwin was listed as a DE in a 4-3. I realize Schobel could play that position. However, what he would not be able to do is drop in coverage and run all the twists and exotic blitzes and stunts that they scheduled to do with Barwin. WHy this would even be up for debate is beyond me. Barwin is a special athlete. Schobel is on the backside of an excellent career, gives good effort, understands technique and has good hands. I would have loved for Schobel to be a Texan last year. He could have done a good job playing a traditional DE role for us.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
I'm not talking about standing up. I'm talking about all the movement. Barwin was going to be the joker... What they had planned for Barwin is similar to the role that Adalius Thomas (LB/DE) had in Baltimore a few years ago. Its similar to the way Adrian Wilson (safety) has been used in the past in Arizona. Regardless of listed position, these players are highlighted in unique ways and can responsibilities at almost every level of the field on a given play. Schobel couldn't do that. There are few players that can.
And by the same token, Jamison cannot (or at least was not asked to) do the things the Nading did in his back-up role to Barwin.
In another word, when the Texans cut Jamison early in the season, it had nothing to do with Nading because they played different roles.
They were in different packages.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Jamison is a better football player and a playmaker. Nading is not a playmaker. I hated the move when it happened. Knowing the severity of Mario's injury now, I really hate it now. Nading does not belong on an NFL roster. Jamison has the potential to be a quality NFL DE. Regardless whether they can do identical things, keeping Nading over Jamison was a mistake that never should've happened if the coaching staff could assess its personnel better.
Greg Ellis may not have been elite, but he was a hell of a pass rusher.
If we are talking about roles & responsibilities, The SAM in Wade's Dallas 3-4 was an alternate pass rusher. Sometimes he would rush the passer, sometimes he wouldn't.
D-Ware almost always rushed the passer, & the DE opposite him would almost always be trying to come around the other side.
In GB, it's the same thing. Matthews almost always rushes the passer, the other OLB was 50-50 or so.....
A guy like Spencer may have had more sacks than Spears, but that's just the way things go.
If Mario is going to be like Bruce Smith.... playing that role, he'll continue to be a primary pass rusher.
Have you ever watched Schoble play? He's a smallish DE, very athletic. If Barwin could do it, Schoble could.
The only difference, being that Schoble did not go to camp, we probably wouldn't have run any of the stuff we "schemed" for Barwin, the same way Anderson, Nading (mostly), and Jamison didn't.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
LOL
The Texans get rid of one of your "quality" players and it's a mistake? Heh, heh, good ole Dale. You get a woody for bubble players and get upset when the Texans snap it off. Where are all of your "quality" players playing now?
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Well, Jamison is back on the roster (played quite well late in the season) and Wade believes he can transition successfully to OLB.
It's not always about my players... The biggest failing of Smithiak, regarding personnel, is its inability to assess the second half of the roster. For instance, I am not a Jacques Reeves guy. Reeves didn't play for anyone after we cut him last year. However, if the Texans kept him last season like they should have, we probably win 8 games instead of 6. Why cut him and keep Molden (whom I like) if they would be unwilling to play Molden no matter how poorly the other CBs on the roster played? Makes no sense.
During the preseason, these guys were messing around with Chris Henry. Why? They were actually excited about him during training camp. I was at training camp and watched the preseason games. Anyone excited about Chris Henry, clearly has some major issues assessing talent.
Also, let me add that the 4th DE on the roster becomes a pretty important decision when the team knows in July that Mario Williams is attempting to play the season with a sports hernia. It becomes even a bigger issue when Connor Barwin breaks his ankle in week one. Those decisions are why some teams battle through a rash of injuries and have successful seasons while others do not.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
If a pass develops, youre pretty much rushing the guard. If I have to do it, I have to do it, but it would be a huge change.- Mario Williams.
No, apparently Mario also wishes it too. Playing in Houston, though, he is going to have a high opinion of offensive guard play. After all, even an all-world talent like Shelley Smith can't get in the game at guard for the Texans. How does one even begin to compete and prepare for that kind of talent and depth... Maybe his self-confidence will be strengthened once a collective bargaining agreement is reached an one of the other NFL franchises actually attempt to sign Kasey Studdard to a contract.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
If a pass develops, youre pretty much rushing the guard. If I have to do it, I have to do it, but it would be a huge change.- Mario Williams.
In other news:
Vonta Leach wonders why he ends up blocking LBs almost every play. "If I could get more carries near the goal line, I could produce better stats without having to work as hard." But, he is so impressed with Mario William's leadership that he has agreed to begrudgingly do what the coaches ask of him.
Owen Daniels- thinks his talents would be better served just going out for passes on every down and not being asked to block DE and LBs sometimes: "Just because there are 53 men on the team and 11 offensive positions, is no excuse for creating gameplans that do not revolve around my unique set of skills... They think that giving me a $6 million signing bonus and $4 million per year in salary gives the coaches a right, as employers, to demand productivity and effort in the parts of my job I don't like. I don't think so! Our team leader since 2006, Mario, has been able to dictate to both defensive coordinators what position he prefers, which playcalls he wants repeated and doesn't want repeated, and which spot on the defensive line he prefers to play on each week. Now that I'm getting paid, I want to be the same kind of leader that Mario has been to this team."
In other news:
Vonta Leach wonders why he ends up blocking LBs almost every play. "If I could get more carries near the goal line, I could produce better stats without having to work as hard." But, he is so impressed with Mario William's leadership that he has agreed to begrudgingly do what the coaches ask of him.
Owen Daniels- thinks his talents would be better served just going out for passes on every down and not being asked to block DE and LBs sometimes: "Just because there are 53 men on the team and 11 offensive positions, is no excuse for creating gameplans that do not revolve around my unique set of skills... They think that giving me a $6 million signing bonus and $4 million per year in salary gives the coaches a right, as employers, to demand productivity and effort in the parts of my job I don't like. I don't think so! Our team leader since 2006, Mario, has been able to dictate to both defensive coordinators what position he prefers, which playcalls he wants repeated and doesn't want repeated, and which spot on the defensive line he prefers to play on each week. Now that I'm getting paid, I want to be the same kind of leader that Mario has been to this team."
I'm thinking it could be well into 2012 before the defensive personnel really has a firm grasp on this new defense, especially if they don't get the new CBA worked out until near or during the beginning of the regular season schedule which would mean no or little preparation/installation time. It could be OJT for the Texans new 3-4 in the 2011 season ?
Remember Frank Bushs first year here, it was a month before the defense started to function with the implementation of a new version of the 4-3,
the "4-3 under" defense ?
Remember Frank Bushs first year here, it was a month before the defense started to function with the implementation of a new version of the 4-3,
the "4-3 under" defense ?
The bye week comes into play.
Schobel probably would've been ready to play at a high level after 3 games and improve the team. As with everything else in this dysfunctional organization, it came down to $$$$.
Schobel got a 1st hand taste of how Rick and by abstensia BoB do business. Apparently BoB just lost another family of fans. (Schobels') LOL
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Dale - are those actual quotes from these guys or is that your attempt of humor? lol
If they are in fact real, that's the kind of stuff that pisses me off... but doesn't surprise me. Every player thinks they're the bees knees. Every WR thinks he should get the ball more, every RB thinks he should get the ball more, now WR/TE wants to block and they think the coaches should play them more or throw the ball more to them. This is when I just want to say "shut the f*ck up and play".... it's a team sport and this is how you win. You're a part of the team, not the center of it.
GNTLEWOLF
Rookie
And there it is...the excuse/reason why Kubiak will not be held accountable this year no matter what the record is....
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
If it took Frank Bush a month... I'm thinking it may take Wade Phillips 1 day.
What really sucks about it is if true Free Agency doesn't open until as the season starts because that means new guys (likely starters) coming in here for the first time and having to play actual games quickly before much practice. I hate that the players/coaches aren't allowed to practice - that's what could set back the learning curve, if you will.
The good news though is it should take NFL Offenses more time to start clicking than defenses. I think Wade will have us attack. Sure there will be mistakes... but we should be able to capitalize more on opposing Offenses' mistakes from poor timing, miscommunication, etc. That is a plus I guess.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Dude, after all this time you haven't learned to take all his posts with a huge grain of salt? He's either trying to pump sunshine up everyone's asses or pimping players that are borderline NFL talents.
GP
Go Texans!
Link please.
nero THE zero
All Pro
The Leach and Daniels quotes are obviously total fabrications.
The Mario quote is actually two partial quotes joined together (out of context):
The Mario quote is actually two partial quotes joined together (out of context):
http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Quotes-Locker-cleanout/cca44b43-c69e-4a11-84ee-d4afd44d8032
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Thank you for the clarification. Rarely do players bring up the specifics of the their salary/contract when talking to reporters.... at least players of OD's intelligence level. lol
GP
Go Texans!
1. It's a bit bush league to not include the sarcasm tag if a person is using humor and mixing it with reality.
2. If a person has a blog and wants to be taken seirously, he/she is undermining their own credibility if they leave it up to the general Internet public to decipher what is real and what is not.
Trying to not bag on dale too hard here, but he should have noted that his post was in jest. In a slow off-season, when news is hard to come by, and due to how scarce information from the Texans is anyways...it would be prudent to let the consumers know, up front, if they're reading humor or if they're being entertained.
When I do (in a post) what dale did, I try to make it very clear that I'm just kidding around. I've had to learn the hard way. Fortunately, hardly anybody has been reading the current posts in this thread and it didn't have 12 replies whereby 12 people fell for it.
I semi-fell for it, but went back and asked for a link to get to the bottom of it. I couldn't imagine OD being so foolish to say those things...yet we ARE amazed every day by the bad decision-making by pro athletes in regards to how they use social media outlets. That's why the post was believable, due to the climate we live in today.
OK go ahead and bash Bush if you want, but he was just introducing a varyation of the 4-3 to the defense his first year, which played pretty well after the first month as I recall ? On the other hand it's a major transition for the entire front-end (DLine & LBs), to move from the 4-3 to the 3-4.
GP
Go Texans!
I'm sort of with you, on this one.
We've got some problems on defense, especially with never having had a competent person leading them for damn near a decade.
While Kubiak built his great offense of domination, he's been, figuratively-speaking, spitting on the wildfire known as our defense.
I don't think Rome gets built in a day here on this situation, and I think those saying Kubiak remains even after a bad 2011 might indeed be correct. I think Bob's gonna' let him go all the way through the end of his last year of contract...even when I just recently stated I didn't think Bob would let him serve out a final year in 2012. I'm reversing course. Kubiak will be here through 2012.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
I was totally exhaggerating but Wade does have a VERY good history of going into new places, switching from a 4-3 to a 3-4 and them having success immediately.
I'm not so much as bashing Bush as just saying he was very inexperienced. I do like the little he brought to the defense but however long it took "to get formed" is just odd to me. A 'variation' of the 4-3 shouldn't be hard for players to pick up... especially one that likely fits their skillset better and allows them to think less and attack more.... all this while they have months to prepare for it before any games are played.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I approve this message.I think the Texans need to proceed as if Barwin never makes it all the way back (of course I hope he does) so they address position early in the draft & anything after that is gravy
nero THE zero
All Pro
I'd call that "The Lock of the Century."
Grams
Veteran
Me too and I shudder to think of it.
Yes, that was a real nasty injury he sufferred and his return to pre-injury form is uncertain. Plus even if fully healthy, we really can only "project" his competance as a LB ? I would expect the Texans to Draft a "minimum" of two 3-4 OLBs.I think the Texans need to proceed as if Barwin never makes it all the way back (of course I hope he does) so they address position early in the draft & anything after that is gravy
So you don't see Anderson or Jamison as a Rush OLB?I think the Texans need to proceed as if Barwin never makes it all the way back (of course I hope he does) so they address position early in the draft & anything after that is gravy
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
They aren't guys you are going to want playing almost every snap. And, if you have a guy that struggles dropping in coverage, you want a guy with better ability to do those things on the other side. Neither of those guys will be strong, or even average, in coverage.
I'm excited about Jamison converting, though.
I think Anderson is even more athletic than Barwin. I actually think he'll be a better OLB than Barwin.
The times that I've seen Barwin drop back in coverage he's looked pretty natural doing so....
I'm Ok with him in zone coverage...Not sure how he'd do in man covg against TE's or RB's....
I think Anderson is the best pure pass rusher on the team. I am pretty sure they will find a way to get him on the field...Heck...He and Barwin may end up being the starting OLBs, or they may end up competing for the same spot...
nero THE zero
All Pro
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I dont
The strengths of a good 3-4 is the LB's a really good NT and 1 DE that can hold up against the run on 1st and 2nd downs, plus put pressure on the QB on 3rd downs.
Think of the great 3-4 teams
NYG LB's Taylor,Reasons,Carson,Banks
Yeah, watching him play, Anderson looks like he would be just as good as Barwin in this role, if not better.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
If we end up retaining Anderson, it will be interesting to see what happens. I don't see him as anything more than a situational 4-3 end... not that he couldn't provide depth at OLB in a 3-4, particularly in the first year of the transition to it. But, I hope you are right about him. However, if he is as good as Barwin in the role, then Barwin isn't who I think he is.
I understand Anderson is a question mark at OLB, however, I believe the same to be true about Barwin. I think with both of them, we hedge our bets that one of them will be that dynamic pass rusher we need from the week side.
The two, in my mind, negates the "need" to draft a rush LB & allows us to focus on other needs, and take the BPA in the first.
I like Cushing and DeMeco inside. I think that makes us very strong at ILB. If DeMeco isn't what he used to be, then that opens another hole I don't want to think about.
I'm more concerned about who we'll start at SAM.. has to be a true LB. At least I'd feel better, if it were a true LB, not a pass rushing specialist. IMO, this is the guy we need to draft.
Or, we can move Cushing back to SAM, then we'll need someone to start inside, with a gimpy Demeco.
Given either scenario, I think we need to go forward thinking WOLB (rush LB) is answered with Anderson/Barwin. Like I said, it's a hedged bet.
nero THE zero
All Pro
He has 4 years experience, he will be a UFA the minute a new CBA is signed.
You're talking about a guy who got cut in the middle of the season. He's not going to be hard to re-sign.
I wouldn't count on a Bears reject playing a big role at WLB. A role he has never played in his life. In fact it wouldn't suprise me if he isn't resigned.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
We don't know what's going to be in that new CBA, do we? There may not even be a new CBA.
I don't think they would have tendered him if what you're saying was true.
Obviously they like his pass rushing abilities from the edge or else they would have just let him walk already.
nero THE zero
All Pro
It wasn't my contention that we would not re-sign him, rather, that we haven't.
We had an opportunity to agree to a new contract with him prior to the March 4 deadline. We didn't. When a new CBA is reached, we will have the opportunity to sign him to a contract if we'd like to, but he will be an UFA.