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Question for Special Teams Gurus

T

TheRealJoker

Hall of Fame
Last season we replaced our special teams coordinator with Larry Izzo. While he was one of the best special teams players in NFL history this facet of the team was below average in the blocking/coverage sections. We drafted Tyler Ervin specifically to get a spark on returns that we've been lacking but when he wasn't muffing returns he was having to fair catch because the blocking was atrocious.

Why do we not seem to have any room to return punts? Also, our coverage was inconsistent. At times we were able to cover well with guys like Bullough and Don Jones being sure tacklers. But then again we allowed multiple td returns this season. 1 return td is too many. I can think of at least 3 off-hand not including the Tyreek Hill return saved by the Charles James flop. What needs to be done to fix this? Are we not getting good players? Is it scheme?

Lets figure this one out while we wait for the new season to start!
 
To have a good ST, you have to have good supporting cast beyond kicker and punter. To have good players on the STs, you have to have strong depth...............something that poor choice of player picks, poor choice of player releases and injuries have repeatedly screw the Texans pooch.
 
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CloakNNNdagger said:
To have a good ST, you have to have good supporting cast beyond kicker and punter. To have good players on the STs, you have to have strong depth...............something that poor choice of player picks, poor choice of player releases and injuries have repeatedly screw the Texans pooch.
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I disagree, as bad as the coverage teams were it goes well beyond talent level. Coaching has to be the root cause.


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If you thought last year was bad, you must not remember previous years

Depth on this team is and always has been bad
 
JB said:
If you thought last year was bad, you must not remember previous years

Depth on this team is and always has been bad
Click to expand...

Seemed to be much worse this past year, was it 3-4 return TD's? Didn't the last coach get fired? They didn't replace better.


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jradMIT said:
Seemed to be much worse this past year, was it 3-4 return TD's? Didn't the last coach get fired? They didn't replace better.


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Click to expand...


Last year they gave up 1 KO TD and 1 PR TD, but their average in both improved from 2015. Still bad, but we didn't add that much depth last year

edit: Oh I forgot this is the "instant fix" era
 
JB said:
Last year they gave up 1 KO TD and 1 PR TD, but their average in both improved from 2015. Still bad, but we didn't add that much depth last year
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1 KR in the playoffs, 1 KR called back on a questionable call as well. By that measure they were worse. It's not an unreasonable expectation for a team not to give up 3 return TDs, the KO coverage was downright unacceptable.


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Per Football Database there were 10 punt return tds and 7 kick return tds scored in the 2016 regular season.

3 (could have been 4 if not for penalty) tds allowed out of 17 total in a 32 team league?!

Quite alarming!
 
TheRealJoker said:
Per Football Database there were 10 punt return tds and 7 kick return tds scored in the 2016 regular season.

3 (could have been 4 if not for penalty) tds allowed out of 17 total in a 32 team league?!

Quite alarming!
Click to expand...

But understandable considering the terribly job that Ricky and his scouts have done with the draft rounds 2-7. The only saving grace is the UDFA's that have signed with Houston
 
jradMIT said:
1 KR in the playoffs, 1 KR called back on a questionable call as well. By that measure they were worse. It's not an unreasonable expectation for a team not to give up 3 return TDs, the KO coverage was downright unacceptable.


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Click to expand...

Return TDs does not tell the true story. Besides the usually evident poor tackling, all of the penalties on STs such as blocks in the back would repeatedly give us poor field position when receiving and give our opponents good field position when we were covering. When STs players are repeatedly slapped with penalties like this, just like when penalties occur on the O or the D, it is usually simply because the players are "beaten"........................because they are usually simply not that good. These type of penalties tend to have a cumulative demoralizing and many times a devastating effect on the results of a game.
 
Our lack of coverage LBs shine through on ST coverage it seems. We don't have a guy that can cover RBs out of the backfield. Makes sense our coverage units are poor.
 
Let's check the stats

2016 KO coverage allowed 6th worst
1. Green Bay 26.3, 1 TD
2. Minnesota 25.8, 1 TD
3. Pittsburg 24.7
4. Kansas City 24.1
5. San Diego 24.0
6. Houston 23.6

2015 KO Coverage 15th worst@24.4 0TD (touch back rule change)

2016 Punt Coverage 5th worst

1. Chicago 12.8 1TD
2. Jacksonville 12.9 1TD
3. Oakland 12.3 1TD
4. Baltimore 11.4 1TD
5. Houston 9.9 1TD
7. Tennessee 9.7 2TD


2015 Punt Coverage 9th Worst @10.2 0 TD

As you can see the Texans were the only team in the bottom six in both KO and Punt coverage. And both of these were worse off than the previous year when compared against the league and the with the fact they gave up scores. Looking at the teams that are bad in KO coverage, they seem to be some of the best teams in the league meaning that KO coverage has more to do with coaching and not talent. Punt coverage seems to be more tilted to talent but not completely so, you still have 3 of the 5 teams in the bottom five with winning records. A few things the ST definitely go worse under Izzo, most of the teams in the bottom of the league have winning records, and the Texans were the only team that was in the bottom 6 for both Punt and KO coverage. That leads me to believe this has a lot to do with coaching and less about talent.
 
It's not always about the coaching if the players simply can't execute
 
jradMIT said:
As you can see the Texans were the only team in the bottom six in both KO and Punt coverage. And both of these were worse off than the previous year when compared against the league and the with the fact they gave up scores. Looking at the teams that are bad in KO coverage, they seem to be some of the best teams in the league meaning that KO coverage has more to do with coaching and not talent. Punt coverage seems to be more tilted to talent but not completely so, you still have 3 of the 5 teams in the bottom five with winning records. A few things the ST definitely go worse under Izzo, most of the teams in the bottom of the league have winning records, and the Texans were the only team that was in the bottom 6 for both Punt and KO coverage. That leads me to believe this has a lot to do with coaching and less about talent.
Click to expand...

This is easily explained by these teams fortunately having relatively strong starters, yet weak depth (those players making up most of the STs).
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
This is easily explained by these teams fortunately having relatively strong starters, yet weak depth (those players making up most of the STs).
Click to expand...


I know Rick Smith is not heralded in these parts but I don't understand the complete pass given to the ST coaching, from that perspective ST coaches a completely trivial.


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jradMIT said:
I know Rick Smith is not heralded in these parts but I don't understand the complete pass given to the ST coaching, from that perspective ST coaches a completely trivial.


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Click to expand...
The question that has to be asked is why since the inception of this team, and after all the different STs coaches (who can't all be considered classified as incompetent) we've gone through, why have our STs consistently as a whole been dogs...............the common denominator has been that the Texans have never enjoyed a season with any semblance of decent depth..............with more reason to be excused for the regimen prior to the Kubiak/Smith regime as those years were truly building from scratch years...........but with very little reason for excuses after that regime............and less so for the O'Brien/Smith regime. The real common denominator for the lack of depth has been the embarrassing failure of our mid round choice of draft picks..........along with some stupid FA picks.................most all of which can be traced back to Smith. As far as the STs coaching, you can't expect the best professor to successfully teach Video Editing 101 at a school for the blind.
 
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Our punt coverage appeared to begin the season on fire - until CJ3 was too short to play corner. Shane then appeared to have trouble kicking short enough to allow for coverage. Same as every other position, you need talent to make an impact - and we've let go some ridiculous special teams talent.
 
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I like how every thread on this board slowly (or quickly!) turns into a bitchfest about the GM. Certainly isn't boring to read the same thing over and over again, not in the least!

Edit:

Poster 1: " so tell me about special teams."

Poster 2: "Rick Smith is the worst GM in the history of the league."

Poster 3: "I agree! He never hits on 4th round draft picks. Sad!"
 
Scooter said:
Our punt coverage appeared to begin the season on fire - until CJ3 was too short to play corner. Shane then appeared to have trouble kicking short enough to allow for coverage. Same as every other position, you need talent to make an impact - and we've let go some ridiculous special teams talent.
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We've also had some injuries to guys that should have fit the mold of special teams standouts. Cliett who was eventually cut, Ballentine and even kj Dillon last season was showing up on special teams and then got hurt. Kjo was a special teams contributor. I think even Dent was injured for a while last season. Can't remember. There were quite a few injuries last season that either directly or indirectly affected special teams.

I don't have anything I can point to in field wise to say I think izzo is a good ST coach, but I just 'feel' like he should know what he's doing based on his history as a player and the coaches he's been around and the fact that he has coached before.

I mean...special teams ain't rocket science really. Yeah there's some coaching blunders you can make, but hell...most of it's about athletic ability and 'want to'. They need more guys out there who were flying around like KJ Dillon was when he got his shot.

And find a returner who can actually return. If Ervin is not going to show up he needs to be replaced too.

Basically, Texans needs to draft or sign more aggressive athletic guys that WANT to play ST and can stay healthy.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
We've also had some injuries to guys that should have fit the mold of special teams standouts. Cliett who was eventually cut, Ballentine and even kj Dillon last season was showing up on special teams and then got hurt. Kjo was a special teams contributor. I think even Dent was injured for a while last season. Can't remember. There were quite a few injuries last season that either directly or indirectly affected special teams.

I don't have anything I can point to in field wise to say I think izzo is a good ST coach, but I just 'feel' like he should know what he's doing based on his history as a player and the coaches he's been around and the fact that he has coached before.

I mean...special teams ain't rocket science really. Yeah there's some coaching blunders you can make, but hell...most of it's about athletic ability and 'want to'. They need more guys out there who were flying around like KJ Dillon was when he got his shot.

And find a returner who can actually return. If Ervin is not going to show up he needs to be replaced too.

Basically, Texans needs to draft or sign more aggressive athletic guys that WANT to play ST and can stay healthy.
Click to expand...

Good post. The one point that needs to be understood is that all teams must anticipate injuries..........they all have them. That's why collecting "smart" depth is not an option, it is a necessity......it begins with putting serious time, effort and logic in assembling the depth..........not making it a throw away exercise. And, as for signing "more aggressive athletic guys that WANT to play ST and can stay healthy".........this seems to describe players that the Texans let walk at the end of seasons, as they have been so busy trying to replace "starters" and depth players they didn't "hit" on in previous years.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
We've also had some injuries to guys that should have fit the mold of special teams standouts. Cliett who was eventually cut, Ballentine and even kj Dillon last season was showing up on special teams and then got hurt. Kjo was a special teams contributor. I think even Dent was injured for a while last season. Can't remember. There were quite a few injuries last season that either directly or indirectly affected special teams.

I don't have anything I can point to in field wise to say I think izzo is a good ST coach, but I just 'feel' like he should know what he's doing based on his history as a player and the coaches he's been around and the fact that he has coached before.

I mean...special teams ain't rocket science really. Yeah there's some coaching blunders you can make, but hell...most of it's about athletic ability and 'want to'. They need more guys out there who were flying around like KJ Dillon was when he got his shot.

And find a returner who can actually return. If Ervin is not going to show up he needs to be replaced too.

Basically, Texans needs to draft or sign more aggressive athletic guys that WANT to play ST and can stay healthy.
Click to expand...

In my experience on a couch, you need someone running that makes an impact. We didn't have an impact player who got injured ... we didn't have any impact player on the team at all once CJ3 left. Guys like Brian Brahman, CJ3 and James Casey ... they can change the field. The guys you listed are random bodies with very little outcome on the result regardless of health. Sure those impact players need healthy try hards around them, but we weren't really hurting (no pun intended) for starting special teamers. Where we're hurting is we keep casting off our few players who have an affinity for the job.
 
I'm not sure I know the answer to this one but I'll make a couple of observations. In the pre-season - kick and punt coverage was fantastic. But there was a noticeable drop off during the regular season. It was most noticeable on punt coverage where opposing returners were routinely getting 10 yard cushions after catch whereas in preseason, our gunners were Johnny-on-the-spot. Maybe someone was paying closer attention than me and can comment, but I'm guessing guys got cut that were making plays in preseason. I did notice a number of different guys at gunner throughout the year so there definitely was a challenge finding the right guys for that role.

BOB's philosophy to use starters on st's may have factored into some of those roster decisions. I linked the article below showing he likes to use starters. We're not the only team to do this, but I am personally not a fan of the strategy. If you've played and started, you were probably like me and dogged it on special teams. Just enough that it won't show on film - but you're not putting everything into it like the guy that needs to prove something to make the team or earn playing time. I really think it can make a difference over the course of a season. I also think it's a bad idea in regards to injury. I cringed every time I saw Clowney out there on St's.

Just my 2 cents.

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2016/08/03/obrien-wont-hesitate-to-put-star-players-on-special-teams/
 
We need an ace. The Pats had Izzo and now have Matthew Slater as their designated Special Teams stud.

We need someone like that. Brian Peters seems to make this team on ST prowess but he was injured a good portion of last year due to the quad injury on the ill-advised kickoff attempt.
 
Scooter said:
In my experience on a couch, you need someone running that makes an impact. We didn't have an impact player who got injured ... we didn't have any impact player on the team at all once CJ3 left. Guys like Brian Brahman, CJ3 and James Casey ... they can change the field. The guys you listed are random bodies with very little outcome on the result regardless of health. Sure those impact players need healthy try hards around them, but we weren't really hurting (no pun intended) for starting special teamers. Where we're hurting is we keep casting off our few players who have an affinity for the job.
Click to expand...
Totally agree. That's exactly what I wrote above in a previous post.......at the end of seasons, we let walk any players that have any STs impact.......they are considered important.
 
I dont know how many of us are versed in special teams play here. Even for long time fans it's a mystery once you get past kicker, punter, long snapper. I wont pretend i know better then anyone else.

I dont mind starters like clowney or watt on field goal block assignments. Especially, if it's late in a game. I dont want them in kick off coverage teams.

Gunners are undervalued i think and we seem to toss them aside regularly.

Tyler Ervin was a very solid return man in college. (Watch some highlights.) For whatever reason he was special ed last season. Our return man's decision to fair catch or return is one of the single most issues we had. Doesn't seem that complicated really. Fair catch or go? Field it. Go.

In coverage, lining up a guy who runs 4.4 next to a guy who runs 5 flat may be an issue. There's going to be a natural gap there to be exploited by a return team. Maybe its that simple. A kick off squad has designated gaps like a defensive line.

Ive watched the previous posts and liked both sides. Is it coaching? Is it talent? Im not certain. Maybe just extra reps for special teams on the "walk thru" day might benifit.

Either way, the defense is good. If we expect to get anywhere in '17 the offense or special teams better get a helluva lot better. How many games did we win on special teams last year? It's not good enough to make a sb run.
 
powda said:
Ive watched the previous posts and liked both sides. Is it coaching? Is it talent? Im not certain. Maybe just extra reps for special teams on the "walk thru" day might benifit.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, that's already a good deal of the problem............"walk-throughs" are as wothless as practices without tackling..............they don't come close to simulating real-time action.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Unfortunately, that's already a good deal of the problem............"walk-throughs" are as wothless as practices without tackling..............they don't come close to simulating real-time action.
Click to expand...

I think walk thrus are worthwile for qbs and maybe mismatches we want to exploit. For the average lineman on offense or defense theyre likely a waste of time.

I just remember reading teams improving on st because they started practices with st's drills. Seems teams on a slow day whom focused on st might get better. There are so many obscure rules on st. Ive never seen us capatalize on them.

Kinda f*cked up that bench players are lead to believe they can make a team with st's contributions. Then we let them go. We've had some good gunners. All gone.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
We've also had some injuries to guys that should have fit the mold of special teams standouts. Cliett who was eventually cut, Ballentine and even kj Dillon last season was showing up on special teams and then got hurt. Kjo was a special teams contributor. I think even Dent was injured for a while last season. Can't remember. There were quite a few injuries last season that either directly or indirectly affected special teams.

I don't have anything I can point to in field wise to say I think izzo is a good ST coach, but I just 'feel' like he should know what he's doing based on his history as a player and the coaches he's been around and the fact that he has coached before.

I mean...special teams ain't rocket science really. Yeah there's some coaching blunders you can make, but hell...most of it's about athletic ability and 'want to'. They need more guys out there who were flying around like KJ Dillon was when he got his shot.

And find a returner who can actually return. If Ervin is not going to show up he needs to be replaced too.

Basically, Texans needs to draft or sign more aggressive athletic guys that WANT to play ST and can stay healthy.
Click to expand...

This. Special teams is all about athletic guys willing to be aggressive through blocks and guys who understand angles. We need more backup LBers and safeties willing to play that way. I've never seen ST as something that requires great coaching, mostly it's up to the players.
 
jradMIT said:
Let's check the stats

2016 KO coverage allowed 6th worst
1. Green Bay 26.3, 1 TD
2. Minnesota 25.8, 1 TD
3. Pittsburg 24.7
4. Kansas City 24.1
5. San Diego 24.0
6. Houston 23.6

2015 KO Coverage 15th worst@24.4 0TD (touch back rule change)

2016 Punt Coverage 5th worst

1. Chicago 12.8 1TD
2. Jacksonville 12.9 1TD
3. Oakland 12.3 1TD
4. Baltimore 11.4 1TD
5. Houston 9.9 1TD
7. Tennessee 9.7 2TD


2015 Punt Coverage 9th Worst @10.2 0 TD

As you can see the Texans were the only team in the bottom six in both KO and Punt coverage. And both of these were worse off than the previous year when compared against the league and the with the fact they gave up scores. Looking at the teams that are bad in KO coverage, they seem to be some of the best teams in the league meaning that KO coverage has more to do with coaching and not talent. Punt coverage seems to be more tilted to talent but not completely so, you still have 3 of the 5 teams in the bottom five with winning records. A few things the ST definitely go worse under Izzo, most of the teams in the bottom of the league have winning records, and the Texans were the only team that was in the bottom 6 for both Punt and KO coverage. That leads me to believe this has a lot to do with coaching and less about talent.
Click to expand...
Like leaning against a lamp post with md40...
 
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